As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/
Options

Blasphemy and punctuation.

NakedZerglingNakedZergling A more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered User regular
edited April 2008 in Help / Advice Forum
So it was cold in my room today. I walked out to piss and came back in and said "Jesus it's fucking cold in here." This started a debate (not a serious one) about weather that would be blasphemy. I think it's all about tone of voice..

"Jesus.(?) {inflection of the voice rising to denote a question} It's fucking cold in here." Seems like it's safe to say because the "Jesus" is separate from the sentence (at least in print) and people are allowed to address Jesus.

but "JESUS it's fucking COLD in here." seems that it could be blasphemy.

So does it boil down to
-Addressing Jesus to in fact let him know it's fucking cold is NOT blasphemy.
-Name dropping him without actually caring if he's listening IS blasphemy.

thought? Does punctuation keep you safe from the lords wrath?

NakedZergling on

Posts

  • Options
    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    It's definitely blasphemy. Whether you care about that or not is another matter but there's no debate here.

    "Jesus, it's fucking cold in here" or even "Jesus, it is cold in here" in a pleasant tone is blasphemous primarily because Jesus does not need to be told it is cold. God is omniscient, remember? To suggest otherwise, even by implication, is blasphemy. So alerting Jesus to the fact that it is cold in your room, in any tone, is blasphemous. Jesus does not need to be addressed to "know" where it is cold.

    Beyond that it is blasphemous to swear when addressing God and to "take the Lord's name in vain" which is rather what your utterance is doing. It would be blasphemous, for instance, to say "Now I lay me down to sleep, pray the Lord my motherfucking soul to keep, and if I die before I wake, I pray the Lord my piece of shit soul to take." It's just not appropriate word choice for communicating with God or Jesus, who is God, even if you did not have blasphemous intent.

    Aside from your word choice, though, is the suggestion that you are asking Jesus to make it not cold. First, God is not to be pestered on trivialities like this. Second, communication with God is usually meant to be a little less cavalier and a little more private. Either a silent or at least sequestered prayer would be more in order if you really wanted it to warm up.

    Drez on
    Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
  • Options
    Jimmy KingJimmy King Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Definitely blasphemy. Really only Drez's middle reason, imo. You used Jesus' name and were using it in a hars/vulgar manner rather than because you were talking to or about him.

    From dictionary.com, the 2nd definition here fits that best. Using a holy/sacred being's name in a non-sacred way
    blasphemy

    noun
    1. blasphemous language (expressing disrespect for God or for something sacred)
    2. blasphemous behavior; the act of depriving something of its sacred character; "desecration of the Holy Sabbath" [syn: profanation]

    The other 2 reasons, not so much, imo. The first would make telling Jesus or God anything blashphemous - an omniscient being already knows everything. The third reason, it's all personal and religious preference how and when you talk to God/Jesus. As long as you are being serious and respectful, I don't think there's any problem whether you're loud or quiet about it.

    That's as far as I'm going with it as this is getting dangerously close to D&D territory.

    Jimmy King on
  • Options
    BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Drez wrote: »
    Jesus does not need to be told it is cold. God is omniscient, remember? To suggest otherwise, even by implication, is blasphemy.
    Wait, so what do people pray about?

    "Dear heavenly father, I am so thankful for the life you have blessed me wi..."
    "I KNOW, BITCH! NOW SHUT UP; LOST IS ON!"

    Bama on
  • Options
    LegionnairedLegionnaired Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Drez wrote: »
    It's definitely blasphemy. Whether you care about that or not is another matter but there's no debate here.

    "Jesus, it's fucking cold in here" or even "Jesus, it is cold in here" in a pleasant tone is blasphemous primarily because Jesus does not need to be told it is cold. God is omniscient, remember? To suggest otherwise, even by implication, is blasphemy. So alerting Jesus to the fact that it is cold in your room, in any tone, is blasphemous. Jesus does not need to be addressed to "know" where it is cold.

    Philippians 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

    Even though God knows, we're still able to converse with him about it, in the same way that your wife knows that you love her, but she's still going to want you to say it. God wants a relationship, not a request queue reminiscent of an IT help desk.
    Beyond that it is blasphemous to swear when addressing God and to "take the Lord's name in vain" which is rather what your utterance is doing. It would be blasphemous, for instance, to say "Now I lay me down to sleep, pray the Lord my motherfucking soul to keep, and if I die before I wake, I pray the Lord my piece of shit soul to take." It's just not appropriate word choice for communicating with God or Jesus, who is God, even if you did not have blasphemous intent.

    Taking God's name in vain means making his name something common and unhallowed. Make no mistake, there is no-one like him.

    But, God, while speaking through Ezekiel, says that one woman in particular in Egypt has 'lusted after those whose flesh is like the flesh of a donkey, and who'se emissions are like those of horses.' Literally, you have lusted after those who were hung like a horse.

    He also says that the Israelites had a standing before Him somewhere on the order of dirty menstrual rags.

    So, if in addressing God you wish to use some colorful speech, that's probably fine.

    Hebrews 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

    15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

    16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.


    IE: if you've come into a relationship with God through Christ, say what you want... we are to draw near to God with confidence, even in our weakness. Language isn't as important as the act of drawing close to him through prayer.

    Legionnaired on
  • Options
    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Drez wrote: »
    It's definitely blasphemy. Whether you care about that or not is another matter but there's no debate here.

    "Jesus, it's fucking cold in here" or even "Jesus, it is cold in here" in a pleasant tone is blasphemous primarily because Jesus does not need to be told it is cold. God is omniscient, remember? To suggest otherwise, even by implication, is blasphemy. So alerting Jesus to the fact that it is cold in your room, in any tone, is blasphemous. Jesus does not need to be addressed to "know" where it is cold.

    Philippians 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

    Even though God knows, we're still able to converse with him about it, in the same way that your wife knows that you love her, but she's still going to want you to say it. God wants a relationship, not a request queue reminiscent of an IT help desk.
    Beyond that it is blasphemous to swear when addressing God and to "take the Lord's name in vain" which is rather what your utterance is doing. It would be blasphemous, for instance, to say "Now I lay me down to sleep, pray the Lord my motherfucking soul to keep, and if I die before I wake, I pray the Lord my piece of shit soul to take." It's just not appropriate word choice for communicating with God or Jesus, who is God, even if you did not have blasphemous intent.

    Taking God's name in vain means making his name something common and unhallowed. Make no mistake, there is no-one like him.

    But, God, while speaking through Ezekiel, says that one woman in particular in Egypt has 'lusted after those whose flesh is like the flesh of a donkey, and who'se emissions are like those of horses.' Literally, you have lusted after those who were hung like a horse.

    He also says that the Israelites had a standing before Him somewhere on the order of dirty menstrual rags.

    So, if in addressing God you wish to use some colorful speech, that's probably fine.

    Hebrews 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

    15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

    16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.


    IE: if you've come into a relationship with God through Christ, say what you want... we are to draw near to God with confidence, even in our weakness. Language isn't as important as the act of drawing close to him through prayer.

    If you have to ask "am I being blasphemous?" chances are you are being blasphemous.

    Drez on
    Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
  • Options
    MagicPrimeMagicPrime FiresideWizard Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Now what you should have said is, "By Odin! Its fucking cold in here!"

    Cause hey, Odin doesn't care. He's in Valhalla getting shit faced.

    MagicPrime on
    BNet • magicprime#1430 | PSN/Steam • MagicPrime | Origin • FireSideWizard
    Critical Failures - Havenhold CampaignAugust St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
  • Options
    TheungryTheungry Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Hmm, I've always been decidedly dissapointed with the modern definitions of blasphemy. In a more historical sense, the word refers to basically defamation of a deity, though its been stretched in various parts of history from naming a deity without proper respect to speaking about a deity in any way (positive or negative) without strict authorization from the local institution of religious dogma (not necessarily even Christian). So to be completely post-modern, blasphemy is totally in the ears of the beholder.

    *Edit, you're also missing the possibility that you thought you saw your latino buddy Jesus who was standing next to the thermostat who ought to be informed about the atmospheric conditions since he is in the best position to do something about it. Being an anglo yourself, you've just never mastered the pronunciation of Latino names, and Jesus is too rigidly polite (Catholic guilt) to correct the way you say his name.

    Theungry on
    Unfortunately, western cultures frown upon arranged marriages, so the vast majority of people have to take risks in order to get into relationships.
  • Options
    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    MagicPrime wrote: »
    Now what you should have said is, "By Odin! Its fucking cold in here!"

    Cause hey, Odin doesn't care. He's in Valhalla getting shit faced.

    Even if he did hear, he'd just be all "Grow a beard, pussy!"

    KalTorak on
  • Options
    SarcastroSarcastro Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I dont disagree on any particular point, I've always been intrigued by that particular commandment.

    Don't take the Lords name - "in vain." Which when I was younger, and heard about soldiers dying 'in vain' sort of meant the trying and the failing therof. To make use of it without purpose, or to make it trivial.

    When I was older, but still quite young, often I heard this used as a popular curse to make one's self look cool. So the meaning shifted to be 'in vanity' - or to glorify one's self. Millenia later, the name still has a certain inherent value to it, and people consistantly piggyback or try to use that power for thier own sake without merit.

    With the advent of pay-per-prayer evangelists and the availibility of Sacred Blesing Oil for your 29.95 offering to the First Church of Wild-Eyed Men on Teevee, again the meaning and reference to vanity and self glorification stuck as being most relevant. Who the fuck are you, Mister Jimmy Poppoff, to package and hawk your hypnotic bullshit by merit of Someone Else's actions? I can't go around saying I'm Donald Trump's rep, and I speak for Donald, and Donald thinks its a good idea for you to buy this slum/parking lot without getting into a whole lot of trouble. If there is a hell, I hope those fuckers burn in it, because there is something very, very wrong about what they do.

    These days, I'm on with Drez's explanation, in that the name of God should be used with reverence and respect, with the recognition that it is the very same rule that provides shock value when using it as a curse word. All of the above are simply aspects of that same issue. I think as a whole though, the topic and usage issues are a bit broader than a lot of people realize.

    Sarcastro on
  • Options
    firewaterwordfirewaterword Satchitananda Pais Vasco to San FranciscoRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    First of all, this is one of the most entertaining things I've seen this morning.

    Second of all, what if one were to change the exclamation in question to "Ye Gods, it be bloody cold in 'ere!"?

    Can a pantheist blaspheme all the gods at once, or must one be more selective?

    firewaterword on
    Lokah Samastah Sukhino Bhavantu
  • Options
    TheungryTheungry Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    First of all, this is one of the most entertaining things I've seen this morning.

    Second of all, what if one were to change the exclamation in question to "Ye Gods, it be bloody cold in 'ere!"?

    Can a pantheist blaspheme all the gods at once, or must one be more selective?

    Well the god of Abraham and his progeny don't have a monopoly on blasphemy, so sure. Their institutions just seem to be the most vocal over the affront in the west.

    Theungry on
    Unfortunately, western cultures frown upon arranged marriages, so the vast majority of people have to take risks in order to get into relationships.
  • Options
    EggyToastEggyToast Jersey CityRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    First of all, this is one of the most entertaining things I've seen this morning.

    Second of all, what if one were to change the exclamation in question to "Ye Gods, it be bloody cold in 'ere!"?

    Can a pantheist blaspheme all the gods at once, or must one be more selective?

    Well, it's blasphemy towards christians. Same with the Odin thing. Only one God, etc.

    So technically the statement "Jesus it's cold in here" is blasphemous to believers of Jesus as a holy figure, but probably less blasphemous than to Muslims. Jews probably don't care.

    It's a matter of perspective. Technically, even "Geez" is blasphemous since it's a euphemism for Jesus.

    EggyToast on
    || Flickr — || PSN: EggyToast
  • Options
    Sharp10rSharp10r Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    First of all, this is one of the most entertaining things I've seen this morning.

    Second of all, what if one were to change the exclamation in question to "Ye Gods, it be bloody cold in 'ere!"?

    Can a pantheist blaspheme all the gods at once, or must one be more selective?

    Depends on the etiquette of the polytheists. (meaning many gods) Pantheists believe all is God, so technically you would be God, just not realize it so I don't think blasphemy would be possible.
    The only God or gods you can blaspheme is/are the true one/s. So you'll have to investigate that first (check out Geisler and Turek's "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" for a compelling case for Theism and then Christian Theism.)
    Oh and Drez: Jesus doesn't know what you're going to say in his human nature, just in his God nature. ;)
    For your pondering I'll also attach an article from Easton's Bible Dictionary on Blasphemy.
    Blasphemy — In the sense of speaking evil of God this word is found in Ps. 74:18; Isa. 52:5; Rom. 2:24; Rev. 13:1, 6; 16:9, 11, 21. It denotes also any kind of calumny, or evil-speaking, or abuse (1 Kings 21:10; Acts 13:45; 18:6, etc.). Our Lord was accused of blasphemy when he claimed to be the Son of God (Matt. 26:65; comp. Matt. 9:3; Mark 2:7). They who deny his Messiahship blaspheme Jesus (Luke 22:65; John 10:36).
    Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (Matt. 12:31, 32; Mark 3:28, 29; Luke 12:10) is regarded by some as a continued and obstinate rejection of the gospel, and hence is an unpardonable sin, simply because as long as a sinner remains in unbelief he voluntarily excludes himself from pardon. Others regard the expression as designating the sin of attributing to the power of Satan those miracles which Christ performed, or generally those works which are the result of the Spirit’s agency.

    Sharp10r on
  • Options
    TheungryTheungry Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Sharp10r wrote: »
    The only God or gods you can blaspheme is/are the true one/s. So you'll have to investigate that first (check out Geisler and Turek's "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" for a compelling case for Theism and then Christian Theism.)[/LEFT]

    I certainly don't want to start a theological debate, but I don't see why one cannot blaspheme any deity whatsoever. The word while used extensively in reference to monotheism has no exclusive denotation to deities in monotheistic world views. You can blaspheme Horus, Krishna, Coyote, Apollo, Baron Samedi or the entire Arapaho pantheon if you so choose. All you have to do is question their existence/validity/power or allege that they have done things unbecoming of their religious persona.

    Theungry on
    Unfortunately, western cultures frown upon arranged marriages, so the vast majority of people have to take risks in order to get into relationships.
  • Options
    Sharp10rSharp10r Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Theungry wrote: »
    Sharp10r wrote: »
    The only God or gods you can blaspheme is/are the true one/s. So you'll have to investigate that first (check out Geisler and Turek's "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" for a compelling case for Theism and then Christian Theism.)[/left]

    I certainly don't want to start a theological debate, but I don't see why one cannot blaspheme any deity whatsoever. The word while used extensively in reference to monotheism has no exclusive denotation to deities in monotheistic world views. You can blaspheme Horus, Krishna, Coyote, Apollo, Baron Samedi or the entire Arapaho pantheon if you so choose. All you have to do is question their existence/validity/power or allege that they have done things unbecoming of their religious persona.
    Hmm, miscommunicated here. It seems reasonable that you can only blaspheme a real deity in the similar way to "you can only hit an existing person." In other words, it seems the verb of blaspheming has to have an object much similar to the verb of hitting has to have an object. I know that a dictionary says blaspheme is "to speak of or address with irreverence," but the OPs question is only relevant if the deity exists. Hope this clarifies!

    Sharp10r on
  • Options
    TheungryTheungry Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I'm still a little fuzzy on what you mean. Do you mean you can't blaspheme a generalized sense of deities, because you need to give some specificity? I don't think you mean to imply that some gods exist and some don't because thats a serious can of worms.

    Theungry on
    Unfortunately, western cultures frown upon arranged marriages, so the vast majority of people have to take risks in order to get into relationships.
  • Options
    RendRend Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    The way I always thought of it was that you should not be BLAMING God, or Jesus, for what's happening. Like saying "Jesus it's cold in here," with surprise would be one thing, but with disdain would be something different, as the latter would imply that you feel Jesus did you a disservice by making it cold, but the former would imply you're just trying to make conversation.

    Conversely, when used in anger, it's not a very good thing to do to command god's wrath down on someone. Nobody likes that, first and foremost the Father Himself. So by saying "God D*** it!" you are essentially asking the LORD to condemn something to the bowels of hell, and not only does God not take that lightly, but neither should we.

    Rend on
  • Options
    splashsplash Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Intent does matter to God though, it matters a lot. If something bad happens on accident it's not the same thing as trying to make something bad happen. He knows people's intentions. So, for example lust can be a bad thing even though it's only in your head and doesn't have to be acted out.

    When someone says Jesus! about something isn't it usually either surprise or substitution to swearing? Damnit, it's cold in here would convey exactly the same thing for most people. It's become such a common usage now it doesn't take on the original meaning of addressing Jesus or anything. Most people say Oh my God even though they don't believe in God or will say Jesus! after hearing some crazy story.

    But it's probably not a good thing at all.

    splash on
Sign In or Register to comment.