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Used games: should we feel bad about buying them?

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    MetalbourneMetalbourne Inside a cluster b personalityRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Personally, I'm hoping I'll see a day soon where every game developer is starving in a ditch.

    Games just piss me off, anymore. If it's not the hours and hours of completely un-interactive, un-skippable cut-scenes, it's the patronizing, un-skippable tutorial getting in the way of my actually playing a game. Then, being combined with a completely uninteresting experience in the five minutes or so of actual game just make me realize that there are other things I'd rather be spending my money on than brand new, shrinkwrapped dvd cases full of shit.

    Metalbourne on
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    LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I think you are just buying the wrong games.

    LewieP on
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    MetalbourneMetalbourne Inside a cluster b personalityRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    LewieP wrote: »
    I think you are just buying the wrong games.

    I think you're an idiot. Now shut up.

    Metalbourne on
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    RizziRizzi Sydney, Australia.Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    When I can buy a new game a year after release for less then the $100 I would have paid if I bought it on release, I'll stop buying pre-loved games. Interesting timing on the topic, I'm heading out to GAME tomorrow to trade in some of the Ps3 games I didn't enjoy.. And a heap of PsP and DS games too.

    Rizzi on
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    LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Well, I can name a bunch of recent games that aren't like that at all...

    Everything in The Orange box
    Super Mario Galaxy
    The Club
    Off-Road Velociraptor Safari
    Contra 4

    LewieP on
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    Cold Salmon and HatredCold Salmon and Hatred __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2008
    I don't buy used games simply because they don't usually last nearly as long as when you buy new.

    Plus I just like that new game smell

    mmboy

    Cold Salmon and Hatred on
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    darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    "I keep slamming my dick in this door, why does this hurt!?"

    "Stop slamming it in a door"

    "SCREW YOU YOU'RE WRONG"

    Dude, if you're not enjoying something you're doing, try something else.

    darleysam on
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    Drunk_caterpillarDrunk_caterpillar Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    LewieP wrote: »
    I think you are just buying the wrong games.

    Drunk_caterpillar on
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    RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    Why should you be allowed to resell it, other than you think you should be able to? If a game company wants to sell its games as licenses to people, that's a perfectly acceptable model to create incentive to make games. Is it really so bizarre a concept that they want you to give them some amount of money for playing their game, rather than letting the same copy get played by a multitude of different people? What's unfair about exchanging money for an enjoyable gaming experience?

    I think I should be able to because that's how everything else works and has always worked and I think it's a damn fine system that doesn't need exceptions for games, movies, music, books, or any other kind of intellectual property.

    HOWEVER

    If a company wants to go with digital distribution or something and try non-transferable licenses, that's fine by me. They just need to realize that people pay $60 for a game largely because the license is transferable. Because they can loan it to a friend or sell it off for cash. In fact, that is a very non-trivial component of the value of their product. I don't buy anything that costs more than $10, maybe $15 in non-transferable form for that very reason.

    I agree that pricing on the digital version should be lower. Probably not as drastic as you're suggesting, but that's beside the point. You seem to have changed your mind and do agree that selling your game afterward doesn't necessarily need to be a universal right.
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    Anyway I'm arguing all this mostly to defend the model of digital distribution of games, which mainly does not let you move games from account to account. A lot of games you enjoy for a few days, beat and don't play it again. Being able to transfer games from account to account would be a complete disaster here. You'd buy a license for a game on ebay, say $10 below the Steam price, or whatever. You play for a while, then sell it back for essentially the same amount of money, effectively enjoying the game for free. The same concept applies with trade-in sites or swapping services. As I mentioned earlier, the absence of hassle in getting a game to someone else and the fact that the quality of the game is not degraded at all by being "used" would cause the used market to dominate, undercutting the publishers and developers and deeply cutting into their revenues. Not to mention the fact that the distributor has to foot the bill for bandwidth every time the license is resold.

    They are under no obligation whatsoever to allow this kind of market to exist.

    My god, what am I supposed to say to this?

    First, let's throw out digital distribution. You keep bringing it up but its basically irrelevant to this discussion. You're right that digital distribution makes it so the publisher has to foot the costs of license transferal, but the pricing scheme has already absorbed this in, along with the fact that you can't transfer licenses. It's a different market with different rules and people treat it differently. The value is shifted all over the place. To even compare it to the matter at hand, retail console game resale, is pointless because of this.

    Who said the matter at hand had to be retail sales? I was only responding to statements that reselling a game was some kind of fundamental right. Anyway it's good we agree here.
    Next, your entire point of view hinges on the idea that the entire value of a game, or most of it at least can be absorbed in one brief play before you resell it to enjoy the game for "free". That's not true at all. People pay for games to have them and play them whenever they want, not just receive all the content enclosed and move on. Ask people here, not just me. The people who buy games new, play them once, and sell them get exactly what they paid for: a fun, fleeting experience at the price of about $3. Similar to a rental.

    The problem here is that you seem to think that consumers should decide how much they want to pay for something. They're always going to want to pay $0 and that model doesn't work. And $3? You pay three times that much to see a 2-hour movie. You really think that playing through the main game is less than 1/10 of the value of owning it? You really beat your games more than 10 times and find each play as enjoyable as the last?
    And what about other products that are basically one-time use but are physical goods? Things like phone unlock cables or Nintendo DS homebrew flashers? What about people on a forum passing around a small, special screwdriver that lets them mod a console instead of each buying their own? It took time and money to design and make those products! The specialized screwdriver could have easily cost more in overhead than materials, just like games. Why aren't you crying out for those people to make more money?

    Because the hassle of passing them around limits the used market, which you're not going to be able to do anything about anyway.

    Anyway you seem to agree that we don't need to enable a used market for digitally distributed games, which is my entire reason for posting in the first place.

    RandomEngy on
    Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
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    urahonkyurahonky Resident FF7R hater Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Seriously here's an eBay protip:

    Put your auction up for 7 days, starting bid at $0.01. Yeah, one cent. Sounds stupid, but you'll get more people watching it... And in the end you'll get more people in a bid war for it. I can guarantee you'll get more than $20 for NMH if you start at $.01.

    urahonky on
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    subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    LewieP wrote: »
    I think you are just buying the wrong games.

    I think you're an idiot. Now shut up.

    Not really. Seriously, pretty much all the stuff you've described the games industry has largely evolved away from by now. There are a few remnants here and there, but on the whole, cutscenes are skippable, training is either optional or unintrusive (see Half Life 2), and if you're genuinely finding the gameplay boring after that then guess what, you really are buying the wrong games. Either that or you're just not interested in games as it is.

    Why don't you list some of the games you did and didn't like recently and maybe we can help you find some good stuff?

    subedii on
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    DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Used game sales for digitally distributed games aren't really necessary because it doesn't cost anything for the distruibutor to keep those games "in print". I can swing onto Steam and buy any game that has ever been availiable on the service ever.

    The same does not hold for retail-distributed games. Hell, we've got another thread on this very subject. Does anyone here really believe that nobody who didn't get a game during its retail release window should ever get to play it ever? Really? "Hey, dude, looks like you missed System Shock 2. Bummer. Nope, it's unethical and should be illegal to sell you my copy. Yeah, sure, you can buy it if EA ever rereleases it. Don't hold your breath."

    Daedalus on
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    Cold Salmon and HatredCold Salmon and Hatred __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2008
    Hey Daedalus

    are you that same Daedalus from the TF2 vids

    Cold Salmon and Hatred on
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    DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Hey Daedalus

    are you that same Daedalus from the TF2 vids

    Nope. Everyone loves Deus Ex.

    I used to go by "The Warlock" here, but I changed it because it was too 15-year-old-ish. That's the problem with internet names. We all made them when we first discovered AIM or whatever back in middle school and now that we're in college or whatever, we're stuck with either keeping something that seemed like a great idea at the time or changing it and losing some contacts and confusing people and etc.

    Daedalus on
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    subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Hey Daedalus

    are you that same Daedalus from the TF2 vids

    Nope. Everyone loves Deus Ex.

    Speaking of which, man when are they going to give us some more info on DE3?

    subedii on
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    DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    subedii wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Hey Daedalus

    are you that same Daedalus from the TF2 vids

    Nope. Everyone loves Deus Ex.

    Speaking of which, man when are they going to give us some more info on DE3?

    It'll be quietly killed and we'll never hear of it again.

    Daedalus on
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    subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Daedalus wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Hey Daedalus

    are you that same Daedalus from the TF2 vids

    Nope. Everyone loves Deus Ex.

    Speaking of which, man when are they going to give us some more info on DE3?

    It'll be quietly killed and we'll never hear of it again.

    Is this something you expect or something you're actually wishing for because you expect it'll be crap?

    subedii on
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    Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    You know what's even better than getting used games for less money?

    Getting new games for 5-10 dollars!

    I love bargin bins.

    The only time I ever get used games is when buy 2 get one sales happen or if the game is impossibly rare.

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
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    DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    You know what's even better than getting used games for less money?

    Getting new games for 5-10 dollars!

    I love bargin bins.

    The only time I ever get used games is when buy 2 get one sales happen or if the game is impossibly rare.

    While you're certainly getting a higher-quality game, the developers aren't exactly benefiting from sales anymore when the game has been discontinued and is sitting in the bargain bin or on a shelf at BigLots or whatever. It's not like they get royalties every time a game is scanned at the register.
    subedii wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Hey Daedalus

    are you that same Daedalus from the TF2 vids

    Nope. Everyone loves Deus Ex.

    Speaking of which, man when are they going to give us some more info on DE3?

    It'll be quietly killed and we'll never hear of it again.

    Is this something you expect or something you're actually wishing for because you expect it'll be crap?
    I expect it. I'm not wishing for it; if it's crap I'll just ignore it, of course. But given that we haven't heard anything since that trailer like a year ago, the outlook is not good.

    Daedalus on
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    LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    But if discounting didn't exist, retailers would have to pay less for games in the first place.

    LewieP on
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    DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Daedalus wrote: »
    You know what's even better than getting used games for less money?

    Getting new games for 5-10 dollars!

    I love bargin bins.

    The only time I ever get used games is when buy 2 get one sales happen or if the game is impossibly rare.

    While you're certainly getting a higher-quality game, the developers aren't exactly benefiting from sales anymore when the game has been discontinued and is sitting in the bargain bin or on a shelf at BigLots or whatever. It's not like they get royalties every time a game is scanned at the register.
    And? He could just not like buying used because used video games are always in shit condition. I don't think I've ever managed to buy a cart that didn't have to be wiped down with goo-gone.

    This is not a moral or ethical issue. I'm convinced anyone who thinks otherwise works in the industry.

    DisruptorX2 on
    1208768734831.jpg
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    subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Daedalus wrote: »
    I expect it. I'm not wishing for it; if it's crap I'll just ignore it, of course. But given that we haven't heard anything since that trailer like a year ago, the outlook is not good.

    To be fair, devs these days like to keep things quiet until closer to release date, otherwise the hype dies too early and loads of stuff changes before the game hits the store shelves.

    subedii on
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    DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    LewieP wrote: »
    But if discounting didn't exist, retailers would have to pay less for games in the first place.

    ?

    Discounting as in "once the game goes Best Of Platinum Greatest Players Choice Hits All Stars, the publishers will reimburse the retailers", or discounting as in "this $50 copy of Odama isn't going anywhere; reduce it to $10 to free up some shelf space, even though we'll take a loss"?

    Daedalus on
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    Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    LewieP wrote: »
    But if discounting didn't exist, no one would know me on these boards!

    Seriously though, the whole retail approach would completely break down without price drops.

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
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    DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Daedalus wrote: »
    You know what's even better than getting used games for less money?

    Getting new games for 5-10 dollars!

    I love bargin bins.

    The only time I ever get used games is when buy 2 get one sales happen or if the game is impossibly rare.

    While you're certainly getting a higher-quality game, the developers aren't exactly benefiting from sales anymore when the game has been discontinued and is sitting in the bargain bin or on a shelf at BigLots or whatever. It's not like they get royalties every time a game is scanned at the register.
    And? He could just not like buying used because used video games are always in shit condition. I don't think I've ever managed to buy a cart that didn't have to be wiped down with goo-gone.

    This is not a moral or ethical issue. I'm convinced anyone who thinks otherwise works in the industry.
    Oh, I agree. I'm just remembering an old thread where some misguided dude came on here wondering where to get a new copy of System Shock II because "he wanted to support the developers". Even after we told him that the development team that made the game was long since gone, he kept scouring eBay for a new, sealed copy.

    Daedalus on
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    SnareSnare Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Hell no, don't feel bad about it. Someone has transfered money to the people who deserve it somewhere along the line, so you're already flying (morally) higher than warez-types.

    The companies that really need the money (smaller ones) you won't get their games second hand anyway (Audiosurf etc...)

    Snare on
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    SmashismSmashism Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    urahonky wrote: »
    Seriously here's an eBay protip:

    Put your auction up for 7 days, starting bid at $0.01. Yeah, one cent. Sounds stupid, but you'll get more people watching it... And in the end you'll get more people in a bid war for it. I can guarantee you'll get more than $20 for NMH if you start at $.01.

    This is how I sell all my games on ebay. This tip is insanely true.
    I buy almost all my games (save for the launch day games) used on ebay, goozex, CAG, pretty much everything BUT gamestop.
    Been able to play a massive amount of games this year due to trading, and budget buying, while only spending 1/4 the amount I should have.
    Do I feel bad that developers aren't getting my money directly? NO. I'm a broke college student, if anyones going to bust my balls about trying to find a cheaper deal, than you need to get your head out of your ass and out of your trust fund.

    Smashism on
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    LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    The latter.

    What I mean is, developers indirectly benefit from retailers being able to discount.

    If for some reason the market was forced to not drop the price of games outside of what the publisher decides, retailers would lose margins (as the costs of keeping games that are not selling on the shelf increases), and would either buy less games, or pay less for them.

    Retailers having the ability to discount (at their own cost) benefits publishers. When retailers reduce games to clearance prices, like a couple of quid or less, it's because the shelf space is now worth more to them than the games themselves, and they need to get rid of the games.

    I do not feel guilty at all for having bought lots of games for very little over the years. I am performing a required economic service, and in the long run it benefits publishers.

    Edit: hahah, Xenogears of Bore, well met.

    LewieP on
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    urahonkyurahonky Resident FF7R hater Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Smashism wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    Seriously here's an eBay protip:

    Put your auction up for 7 days, starting bid at $0.01. Yeah, one cent. Sounds stupid, but you'll get more people watching it... And in the end you'll get more people in a bid war for it. I can guarantee you'll get more than $20 for NMH if you start at $.01.

    This is how I sell all my games on ebay. This tip is insanely true.
    I buy almost all my games (save for the launch day games) used on ebay, goozex, CAG, pretty much everything BUT gamestop.
    Been able to play a massive amount of games this year due to trading, and budget buying, while only spending 1/4 the amount I should have.
    Do I feel bad that developers aren't getting my money directly? NO. I'm a broke college student, if anyones going to bust my balls about trying to find a cheaper deal, than you need to get your head out of your ass and out of your trust fund.

    It always makes me nervous to set it at 1 cent, but by the last day the price will skyrocket.

    urahonky on
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    YodaTunaYodaTuna Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    cliffski wrote: »
    In the long run, the stores are dead and its direct sales all the way. The stores must know this, they would be mad to hasten it even more.

    That must be why retail sales of games grow by a ridiculous amount every year. They're dying! GameStop hasn't had huge profit growth in the last 3 years or anything like that. Crazy talk!

    Digital Distribution and Direct Purchasing have their place, but they will not overtake retail sales. 1) People don't like to wait. 2) When people buy something, they want an actual copy of it. 3) A lot of people browse for games instead of already knowing what they are going to purchase, which is harder over the internet than in the store.

    YodaTuna on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    When you buy qa new game, 100% of the purchase price goes to the store.

    The store already bought that game from the publisher, whether you buy it or not.



    Yes, there are SOME conotations behind the scenes of buying new vs. used, but it DEFINITELY isn't a 1:1 factor.



    The BEST way to benefit a publisher/developer is to pre-order your games. Those ARE ordered on a 1:1 basis, generally, and sometimes one more pre-order might cause a company to order more than one more copy of the game.




    Ultimately, at the end of the day, buying used is your right as a consumer. If a game isn't worth $60 to you, then you shouldn't feel guilted in to paying that price. If a developer goes under because no one is willing to buy their games new, then they should have been making better games from the start.

    Evander on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Used game sales for digitally distributed games aren't really necessary because it doesn't cost anything for the distruibutor to keep those games "in print". I can swing onto Steam and buy any game that has ever been availiable on the service ever.


    They may not be necessary for the distributor, but what about the consumer?

    When I buy a physical game, I know that I canget some kind of return on it in the end. That is a factor in to my determiniation of value.

    With Digi Distro, there is no salvage value. All I can ever do is get bored and delete it.

    Evander on
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    urahonkyurahonky Resident FF7R hater Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I don't have a problem with that, Evander, because I never sell my games. I sell a lot of other things, but I always keep games. I always get that itch to play through them again down the road. I learned my lesson, hard, from the SNES era.

    urahonky on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Different strokes, and all.

    I can tell whether or not I'll ever want to play a game again. IF I'm never going to touch it, I see no reason why it shouldn't be able to pay for the sales tax on my next purchase.

    Evander on
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    urahonkyurahonky Resident FF7R hater Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    This is true, which is why I know DD isn't for everybody. It sure as hell is for me though, since I'm running out of physical space to hold my games.

    urahonky on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    It's funny, because I'm runing out of virtual space for DD games on both my 360 and my PC.

    Time to invest in bigger HDDs, I guess.





    Honestly, I am a big fan of DD, in general, I just don't see it ever truelly getting rid of physical media. It absolutely has its place, though.

    Evander on
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    DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Evander wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Used game sales for digitally distributed games aren't really necessary because it doesn't cost anything for the distruibutor to keep those games "in print". I can swing onto Steam and buy any game that has ever been availiable on the service ever.


    They may not be necessary for the distributor, but what about the consumer?

    When I buy a physical game, I know that I canget some kind of return on it in the end. That is a factor in to my determiniation of value.

    With Digi Distro, there is no salvage value. All I can ever do is get bored and delete it.

    Then I'd recommend waiting until the game drops in price, or buying the console port. I'm just looking at this from a "preserving the availability of works" standpoint.

    Daedalus on
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    projectmayhemprojectmayhem Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I am sure it's been said, but in no way will I feel bad as long as they want me to pay 60$.

    I don't even buy games period anymore at that price, I just borrow them from friends that do.

    projectmayhem on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Used game sales for digitally distributed games aren't really necessary because it doesn't cost anything for the distruibutor to keep those games "in print". I can swing onto Steam and buy any game that has ever been availiable on the service ever.


    They may not be necessary for the distributor, but what about the consumer?

    When I buy a physical game, I know that I canget some kind of return on it in the end. That is a factor in to my determiniation of value.

    With Digi Distro, there is no salvage value. All I can ever do is get bored and delete it.

    Then I'd recommend waiting until the game drops in price, or buying the console port. I'm just looking at this from a "preserving the availability of works" standpoint.


    That's a fair standpoint, but you are also forgettingthe fact that price drops are a lot different with DD as well.

    With physical products, they take up shelf space, so you need to occasionally reduce the price in order to raise demand, and clear them out. With DD, there's no worries about shelf-space, so you can keep the price up high until it stops selling entirely before dropping it. Imagine if EVERY game's price stayed at it's release point for a couple years before SLOWLY dropping.

    Evander on
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    subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Evander wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Used game sales for digitally distributed games aren't really necessary because it doesn't cost anything for the distruibutor to keep those games "in print". I can swing onto Steam and buy any game that has ever been availiable on the service ever.


    They may not be necessary for the distributor, but what about the consumer?

    When I buy a physical game, I know that I canget some kind of return on it in the end. That is a factor in to my determiniation of value.

    With Digi Distro, there is no salvage value. All I can ever do is get bored and delete it.

    Then I'd recommend waiting until the game drops in price, or buying the console port. I'm just looking at this from a "preserving the availability of works" standpoint.


    That's a fair standpoint, but you are also forgettingthe fact that price drops are a lot different with DD as well.

    With physical products, they take up shelf space, so you need to occasionally reduce the price in order to raise demand, and clear them out. With DD, there's no worries about shelf-space, so you can keep the price up high until it stops selling entirely before dropping it. Imagine if EVERY game's price stayed at it's release point for a couple years before SLOWLY dropping.

    I don't know about you, but I see price drops very regularly on Steam. After a while, demand dips, and then the price drops to create another boost. Plus there's lots of time limited sales. Seriously, there's actually some really good deals on there.

    subedii on
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