Well, in terms of standard bearing, dont look at me. I'm not playing a tank, I play DPS. I kill people, kill more people, and continue killing until I get killed, thats the only way to go. You guys can continue bickering about banners while I revel in my massive slaughter.
Blood for the Blood God!
Although I haven't seen it..armor penetration scaling means the PvP is going to be more balanced. It's actually tempting to play a tank for me since they keep amped damage while pure DPS have armor penetration. I'm speculating that pvp as a tank will have potential for a lot of stuns and knockbacks so they should still be pretty good killing machines.
PvP as a Prot war in WoW was kind of what killled the game for me. I had to farm all the time for respecs just to play one character different ways. It's something that plagued all classes but healers and tanks were problably hit hardest. WAR has claimed from the beginning that classes and combat are based on 1v1 balancing due to the heavy RvR emphasis. It won't be perfect but at least their efforts may tone down any inequalities in all the various class matchups.
WAR has claimed from the beginning that classes and combat are based on 1v1 balancing due to the heavy RvR emphasis.
Have they specifically said this? I haven't seen it, and I'd say it would be a terrible idea if they did. Keeping all classes solo-viable is one thing, balancing group combat around duels is quite another.
WAR has claimed from the beginning that classes and combat are based on 1v1 balancing due to the heavy RvR emphasis.
Have they specifically said this? I haven't seen it, and I'd say it would be a terrible idea if they did. Keeping all classes solo-viable is one thing, balancing group combat around duels is quite another.
I think it's more of the idea that, if they have a healer that uses a certain mechanic for side A, side B should also have a healer that uses the same mechanic. Side A healer may do a little more damage but side B healer is a little bit better at healing. Just at their core, they are pretty much the same.
So it's more 1:1 for each class against the other faction.
What, and not have the Shammy vs Pally bitch fests that WoW had? But how will the masses be entertained?
Oh that's going to happen anyway. Just like masses being attracted to one another, people will bitch and cry for nerfs. Except we won't find anything as useful as Newtonian Mechanics when we watch these people.
As long as I get to kill lots of people, burn their cities and loot their belongings, I'm happy. And any way you put it, DPS classes should mean killing things faster.
Skulls for the Skull Throne.
THOR on
Upp och hoppa Tor, Slå på trumma bror, Det ar danse ut i Valhal i natt.
WAR has claimed from the beginning that classes and combat are based on 1v1 balancing due to the heavy RvR emphasis.
Have they specifically said this? I haven't seen it, and I'd say it would be a terrible idea if they did. Keeping all classes solo-viable is one thing, balancing group combat around duels is quite another.
I swear I saw it somewhere. It was like a year ago but it was something I based a lot of my thoughts on the game from the comment. My speakers on this computer are way to low to hear most of the videos but I'll definately search for it when I get on one outside.
I'm not sure why balancing 1v1 means you group combat wouldn't be balanced... at least not if the dev's worked on tailoring it as well.
Another rationale for them wanting to at least make an effort to balance 1v1 is that In RvR you aren't going to run into static numbers of enemies. For AOE effects this can be a big deal but I think even WoW has caps on how much total AoE damage can be output.
There is a distinct difference in 1v1. I'm sure if there is a chosen running 500 yards to attack a single nuker, the nuker or mage can defend himself quite efficiently because that is an ideal setting for him since he has long range and high dps. I think they mean more like this stuff, where in different situations, it doesn't matter what class you have, you can have a low or high utility in it, versus any class, with any class.
There is a distinct difference in 1v1. I'm sure if there is a chosen running 500 yards to attack a single nuker, the nuker or mage can defend himself quite efficiently because that is an ideal setting for him since he has long range and high dps. I think they mean more like this stuff, where in different situations, it doesn't matter what class you have, you can have a low or high utility in it, versus any class, with any class.
Oh true I didn't mean balance by both guys always having equal opportunity to kill each other regardless of environmental advantage. A nuker gets the jump from a distance he should have the advantage. The tank gets the jump by hiding behind a rock and getting in close range, then he should have the advantage. To me that's a big factor in balancing.
You take something like WoW where mages can tele, sheep and pom/pyro after you get the jump on them or a lock that can constantly fear and it hurts the balance.
There is a distinct difference in 1v1. I'm sure if there is a chosen running 500 yards to attack a single nuker, the nuker or mage can defend himself quite efficiently because that is an ideal setting for him since he has long range and high dps. I think they mean more like this stuff, where in different situations, it doesn't matter what class you have, you can have a low or high utility in it, versus any class, with any class.
Oh true I didn't mean balance by both guys always having equal opportunity to kill each other regardless of environmental advantage. A nuker gets the jump from a distance he should have the advantage. The tank gets the jump by hiding behind a rock and getting in close range, then he should have the advantage. To me that's a big factor in balancing.
You take something like WoW where mages can tele, sheep and pom/pyro after you get the jump on them or a lock that can constantly fear and it hurts the balance.
I think the fact that classes have usually 2 components, but don't have the mix mirrored across the divide will help set appart the normal bitching in WAR from games like WoW
This is not a fucking chat thread, dammit. - Munkus
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited May 2008
sleepdaemon, if you post anything else in this thread that is off topic, you're going to be banned. Last warning.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
So there's an option of 3 standards. I'm going to assume since they have interchangeable abilities that all three can be used at once (unless each has a different set of bonuses attached). Do you think we'll be limited to just 1 standard? I mean...imagine 24 v 24 scenario slapfest of two guilds with all standardbearers using the knockback! It'd be like a friendly snowball fight...until someone drops their standard!
I don't think you'll be limited to one standard. They said you can load it out with different buffs, so it makes me think things like "One banner that's awesome for casters, one that's awesome for melee, and one that's just generally awesome for everybody"
Does anyone have any idea if you'll be able to have all 3 banners in that same battle at one time, or do you have to choose between the three before combat?
It *seems* like you can take all three into battle at once, otherwise the change would only be cosmetic seeing as you can already switch tactics on the standards.
Indeed, but if you can take all 3 banners into battle at once, then you could also lose all 3 banners in one battle... not that we will ever lose though :P
I don't think you'll be limited to one standard. They said you can load it out with different buffs, so it makes me think things like "One banner that's awesome for casters, one that's awesome for melee, and one that's just generally awesome for everybody"
Kinda neat.
If they are anything like Camelots. They will be like -5% Crowd Control time (stuns that you collect are shorter), +5% Melee Damage, etc.
What I want to know is if you can bring your standard into PvE in order to get the bonuses.
I think I'll go on record as being one of the players who DOESN'T want to carry the banner. You guys can run around with your flags and make me stronger, that's cool, I just want to kill some stupid stunties.
I don't think EAM has claimed anywhere that classes are balanced for 1v1, because that would be pretty stupid, especially considering their endgame concept is NOT 1v1, it's Large vs Large.
You'd end up with WoW's idea of balance. What they are doing, which goes to the point that was trying to be made, is making sure that no matter what mastery path you choose to take for your class, you will be viable in PvP.
I could honestly care less who gets to carry the flag in. If I pick it up to keep it from enemy hands, and somebody says to give THEIR flag back? I'm going to run around your character for as long as I can stand casting "Eek!"
Also, I'm hoping the banners have a pretty-limited range. So its more about getting to the people who need you the most as the flag bearer. Or being right on the front lines. I also can't wait to toss people away from my banner carrying friends as a black orc or shaman. Throwing heals or diving in front of arrows as necessary.
I think I'll go on record as being one of the players who DOESN'T want to carry the banner. You guys can run around with your flags and make me stronger, that's cool, I just want to kill some stupid stunties.
Finally a man of my own tastes. You know how to have fun.
THOR on
Upp och hoppa Tor, Slå på trumma bror, Det ar danse ut i Valhal i natt.
Major kudos to our terrifying purple furry for obvious reasons.
Also, newsletter arrived. It kinda worries me how every race still has classes missing from beta, almost like they don't know what to do with them yet.
Nah, there's pretty logical reasons for leaving them out right now. Since they're testing specific content, it's better to stick with classes they know work, than throw some new stuff into the fray that might cause problems that may or may not be the result of the class, or the area they are testing.
While true, there's a fair deal of balance testing going on as well. Either there's going to be extra passes later on or these classes probably won't get as much balance testing as the others.
It kinda worries me how every race still has classes missing from beta, almost like they don't know what to do with them yet.
The only thing that worries me somewhat are the classes that have never been in the Beta and have never been playable in any form so far.
Blackguard, KotBS, White Lion... those have not been introduced into the Beta at all (except for NPCs).
Something like the Magus, which has been in the Beta but was removed I am less worried about.
Also, was it a rumor that the Guild Beta was going to start when all the classes were available? I thought I read that somewhere, but I'm sure if it was a Dev or a random person.
I won't be worried unless they get close to release and pull a Blizzard. The Hunter was barely tested at all. The focused testing they're doing now along with the amount of time before release gives me hope that all the classes will be tested and balanced in time.
Most of the classes in WoW weren't really balanced or properly tested. Rather, the beta testers gave a lot of feedback that was either ignored, or implemented 2-3 months after the game was released. I beta-ed TBC and my class community gave a LOT of feedback about the class (warriors) and what was wrong. For the most part all of the suggestions were largely ignored, but implemented over the next few months in patches. Eventually the class got more or less to where it should have been at launch, but for whatever reason they ignored a lot of class complaints in beta (specifically shamans), and it makes me wonder why bother doing a beta at all if you ignore the suggestions of the majority of the testers.
WAR's devs have gone on record though saying they're really listening to tester complaints and suggestions. So I'm hoping that's a trend that continues.
I think that WoW paladins got the worst treatment in terms of being put into the game at release. Several days before the servers went live they implemented the complete change of mechanics for Paladins. Several days, as in, no chance in hell of testing them.
This is how we got horrible skill descriptions like Seal of the Crusader which are contradictions in and of themselves and lead to the overpowered and then useless ability.
Myself and many others felt like the WoW beta went on for 3-4 months after release, same with the burning crusade.
I hope that I don't get that feeling from WAR, I know that MMOs typically have a lot more bugs to iron out (because of the scope of the game), but really class balance is the most important thing so I hope they get that right and I think most of us will overlook any of the other glitches that might make it into the game, like broken quests, graphical gliches and the rest.
eeeh im not as worried about some of those classes. remember that every order/destro class is mirrored on the other side by another class, so most of the ones that "havent been seen" have actually been seen just in another form. I'm sure they'll get some unique spells, but that's much easier to test and tweak than an entire class.
The only things I'm worried about are the engineer, magus and I THINK kotbs/black guard
and it's not even a worry its just a "aaah, where are these dudes"
Yeah, I'm not super worried either, from everything I've heard the devs are really trying to pay attention to the testers. And considering PVP is going to be a primary focus of this game, and not an afterthought like in WoW I think they'll put in the necessary time to make sure everything comes out right.
I don't think EAM has claimed anywhere that classes are balanced for 1v1, because that would be pretty stupid, especially considering their endgame concept is NOT 1v1, it's Large vs Large.
You'd end up with WoW's idea of balance. What they are doing, which goes to the point that was trying to be made, is making sure that no matter what mastery path you choose to take for your class, you will be viable in PvP.
I'll eat my words. I swear I saw it but the only official things I could find were to say "pvp viable". That's good enough for me though.
When TBC came out Bear tanks were the shizznit. As a warrior I found it quite apalling! There have always been balance issues but I think a lot of the problems coincide with the fact that some WoW mechanics work great when you mix classes and people aren't willing to put out the effort.
For instance, Ret pallys can really rock if you've got a good one on your side. The problem was their threat. Since most of our Shammy's were so obsessed with the DPS charts they never put tranquil air instead of the crazy extra hit totem. If you forced the issue they'd leave for another guild. Since shamans were more threat balanced and could take three roles intead of two most GM's figured..."there is less drama by letting shamans do their thing and fuck the ret pallys."
Hopefully Mythic understands that balancing game mechanics goes beyond the simple pew-pew of your avatar and into the effort of coordination many GM's selflessly put themselves through to get through content.
Hembot on
0
AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
edited May 2008
if your shamans were putting down windfury totem instead of tranquil air to boost their own dps, then you should be happy they were leaving your guild.
Posts
Although I haven't seen it..armor penetration scaling means the PvP is going to be more balanced. It's actually tempting to play a tank for me since they keep amped damage while pure DPS have armor penetration. I'm speculating that pvp as a tank will have potential for a lot of stuns and knockbacks so they should still be pretty good killing machines.
PvP as a Prot war in WoW was kind of what killled the game for me. I had to farm all the time for respecs just to play one character different ways. It's something that plagued all classes but healers and tanks were problably hit hardest. WAR has claimed from the beginning that classes and combat are based on 1v1 balancing due to the heavy RvR emphasis. It won't be perfect but at least their efforts may tone down any inequalities in all the various class matchups.
Have they specifically said this? I haven't seen it, and I'd say it would be a terrible idea if they did. Keeping all classes solo-viable is one thing, balancing group combat around duels is quite another.
LoL: BunyipAristocrat
I think it's more of the idea that, if they have a healer that uses a certain mechanic for side A, side B should also have a healer that uses the same mechanic. Side A healer may do a little more damage but side B healer is a little bit better at healing. Just at their core, they are pretty much the same.
So it's more 1:1 for each class against the other faction.
LoL: BunyipAristocrat
Oh that's going to happen anyway. Just like masses being attracted to one another, people will bitch and cry for nerfs. Except we won't find anything as useful as Newtonian Mechanics when we watch these people.
Skulls for the Skull Throne.
By the Fires of Muspelheim!!
I swear I saw it somewhere. It was like a year ago but it was something I based a lot of my thoughts on the game from the comment. My speakers on this computer are way to low to hear most of the videos but I'll definately search for it when I get on one outside.
I'm not sure why balancing 1v1 means you group combat wouldn't be balanced... at least not if the dev's worked on tailoring it as well.
Another rationale for them wanting to at least make an effort to balance 1v1 is that In RvR you aren't going to run into static numbers of enemies. For AOE effects this can be a big deal but I think even WoW has caps on how much total AoE damage can be output.
Oh true I didn't mean balance by both guys always having equal opportunity to kill each other regardless of environmental advantage. A nuker gets the jump from a distance he should have the advantage. The tank gets the jump by hiding behind a rock and getting in close range, then he should have the advantage. To me that's a big factor in balancing.
You take something like WoW where mages can tele, sheep and pom/pyro after you get the jump on them or a lock that can constantly fear and it hurts the balance.
I think the fact that classes have usually 2 components, but don't have the mix mirrored across the divide will help set appart the normal bitching in WAR from games like WoW
I was actually just about to return to this thread to report it after actually reading that.
Munkus is already 1 step ahead.
Kinda neat.
MWO: Adamski
If they are anything like Camelots. They will be like -5% Crowd Control time (stuns that you collect are shorter), +5% Melee Damage, etc.
What I want to know is if you can bring your standard into PvE in order to get the bonuses.
You'd end up with WoW's idea of balance. What they are doing, which goes to the point that was trying to be made, is making sure that no matter what mastery path you choose to take for your class, you will be viable in PvP.
Also, I'm hoping the banners have a pretty-limited range. So its more about getting to the people who need you the most as the flag bearer. Or being right on the front lines. I also can't wait to toss people away from my banner carrying friends as a black orc or shaman. Throwing heals or diving in front of arrows as necessary.
Finally a man of my own tastes. You know how to have fun.
By the Fires of Muspelheim!!
Also, newsletter arrived. It kinda worries me how every race still has classes missing from beta, almost like they don't know what to do with them yet.
Orc/Dwarf/missing classes
The good thing about focus tests is that when something new goes in people play the shit out of it
The only thing that worries me somewhat are the classes that have never been in the Beta and have never been playable in any form so far.
Blackguard, KotBS, White Lion... those have not been introduced into the Beta at all (except for NPCs).
Something like the Magus, which has been in the Beta but was removed I am less worried about.
Also, was it a rumor that the Guild Beta was going to start when all the classes were available? I thought I read that somewhere, but I'm sure if it was a Dev or a random person.
WAR's devs have gone on record though saying they're really listening to tester complaints and suggestions. So I'm hoping that's a trend that continues.
This is how we got horrible skill descriptions like Seal of the Crusader which are contradictions in and of themselves and lead to the overpowered and then useless ability.
I hope that I don't get that feeling from WAR, I know that MMOs typically have a lot more bugs to iron out (because of the scope of the game), but really class balance is the most important thing so I hope they get that right and I think most of us will overlook any of the other glitches that might make it into the game, like broken quests, graphical gliches and the rest.
The only things I'm worried about are the engineer, magus and I THINK kotbs/black guard
and it's not even a worry its just a "aaah, where are these dudes"
I'll eat my words. I swear I saw it but the only official things I could find were to say "pvp viable". That's good enough for me though.
When TBC came out Bear tanks were the shizznit. As a warrior I found it quite apalling! There have always been balance issues but I think a lot of the problems coincide with the fact that some WoW mechanics work great when you mix classes and people aren't willing to put out the effort.
For instance, Ret pallys can really rock if you've got a good one on your side. The problem was their threat. Since most of our Shammy's were so obsessed with the DPS charts they never put tranquil air instead of the crazy extra hit totem. If you forced the issue they'd leave for another guild. Since shamans were more threat balanced and could take three roles intead of two most GM's figured..."there is less drama by letting shamans do their thing and fuck the ret pallys."
Hopefully Mythic understands that balancing game mechanics goes beyond the simple pew-pew of your avatar and into the effort of coordination many GM's selflessly put themselves through to get through content.
anyways.. chosen sound fun and all that jazz.