[WoW] Death Knights Hoo!: Druids don't need shields to tank, and neither do we!

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  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    -Phil- wrote: »
    I quit WoW and am thinking of coming back when WotLK comes out......

    I deleted all the armour and items, will the restore it? (at least the last set I had on)

    Usually.

    Thomamelas on
  • reVersereVerse Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Why would you delete all your armor and items? That's idiotic.

    reVerse on
  • SabinXLSabinXL Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    reVerse wrote: »
    Why would you delete all your armor and items? That's idiotic.

    People think that destroying items/characters will prevent them from logging on and wanting to play.

    The truth of it is, if you want to quit you're going to do it regardless of how many characters or items you have. Most people don't have the willpower to actually quit so they just come back, however, and when they do they're faced with no characters or naked ones. A bit silly, really.

    SabinXL on
  • reVersereVerse Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    SabinXL wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Why would you delete all your armor and items? That's idiotic.

    People think that destroying items/characters will prevent them from logging on and wanting to play.

    The truth of it is, if you want to quit you're going to do it regardless of how many characters or items you have. Most people don't have the willpower to actually quit so they just come back, however, and when they do they're faced with no characters or naked ones. A bit silly, really.

    Yes, that was my point.

    reVerse on
  • rizriz Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    reVerse wrote: »
    Forar wrote: »
    Also, I really hope they take a long look at how the 3 current tanking classes play, the popularity of using them as tanks (in 5 mans up to 25 mans) and make ALL 4 of them fun as hell to play as tanks.

    The problem with that is that your fun can easily be ruined by aggro-happy DPS McRetardpants no matter how fun the actual mechanics of tanking are. Combine with the fact that 90% of WoW players fall into the McRetardpants category and you've got problems.

    Conversely it could be great fun to watch McRetardpants pull aggro all the time and die. This never happens with me, though. I always feel guilty and/or like a bad tank even when it's their own fault. Stop whirlwinding when I've only got aggro one two of the five! I blame one horrible SV run with two guildies' warrior alts for making me never want to tank on my druid again.

    riz on
    Organichu wrote:
    she's some sort of malevolent creature who bores through this world into the next using hatred and suffering as her fuel
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Yeah tanking for idiots is basically the most frustrating thing ever.

    On the other hand tanking for competent guildies who appreciate you is basically the most rewarding thing ever.

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ImperfectImperfect Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    The problem being, if you let McRetardpants die, usually the group falls, too. Then the group gets mad at you.

    It's sad, you know, that the tank gets most of the enemy aggro and most of the allied aggro.

    Imperfect on
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I think they only time I've ever actually gotten mad at a group was when a rogue wiped us by using expose armor

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    riz wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Forar wrote: »
    Also, I really hope they take a long look at how the 3 current tanking classes play, the popularity of using them as tanks (in 5 mans up to 25 mans) and make ALL 4 of them fun as hell to play as tanks.

    The problem with that is that your fun can easily be ruined by aggro-happy DPS McRetardpants no matter how fun the actual mechanics of tanking are. Combine with the fact that 90% of WoW players fall into the McRetardpants category and you've got problems.

    Conversely it could be great fun to watch McRetardpants pull aggro all the time and die. This never happens with me, though. I always feel guilty and/or like a bad tank even when it's their own fault. Stop whirlwinding when I've only got aggro one two of the five! I blame one horrible SV run with two guildies' warrior alts for making me never want to tank on my druid again.

    So let them die. Your job is to protect the group within reasonable limits. If you can exceed those limits then good for you. But you can not protect others from their own stupidity. You can't do it in the real world and you can't do it in game.

    Thomamelas on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Which comes full circle as to why paladin tanking (in 5 mans and Karazhan, at least) is so damned awesome: your "idiocy buffer" is HUGE.

    Like Shattered Halls; terrifying with a PuG at times on my druid and warrior (oh god, will you fucks pick ONE thing to kill or what?), but with my Paladin everyone but the healer is essentially superfluous. We will succeed almost no matter what, the only variable they really bring to the equation is how much longer it takes us to get there.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Forar wrote: »
    Which comes full circle as to why paladin tanking (in 5 mans and Karazhan, at least) is so damned awesome: your "idiocy buffer" is HUGE.

    Like Shattered Halls; terrifying with a PuG at times on my druid and warrior (oh god, will you fucks pick ONE thing to kill or what?), but with my Paladin everyone but the healer is essentially superfluous. We will succeed almost no matter what, the only variable they really bring to the equation is how much longer it takes us to get there.

    Aye, the ability to hold AoE aggro is a tremendous advantage to in five mans. But SH is also almost scarily optimized for AoE tanking.

    Thomamelas on
  • rehtonAesoohCrehtonAesoohC Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    Forar wrote: »
    Which comes full circle as to why paladin tanking (in 5 mans and Karazhan, at least) is so damned awesome: your "idiocy buffer" is HUGE.

    Like Shattered Halls; terrifying with a PuG at times on my druid and warrior (oh god, will you fucks pick ONE thing to kill or what?), but with my Paladin everyone but the healer is essentially superfluous. We will succeed almost no matter what, the only variable they really bring to the equation is how much longer it takes us to get there.

    Aye, the ability to hold AoE aggro is a tremendous advantage to in five mans. But SH is also almost scarily optimized for AoE tanking.

    I tried tanking regular shattered halls on my warrior when I dinged 70. Now, I had never been to shattered halls before, and I thought, "Cool, something new to tank!" Boy did I come out of there with different assumptions...

    Let me also preface this by saying that the priest was 67, the hunter was 70 and putting out about 300 dps (WTF?!) and the mage was appropriately sheeping the star. Oh wait, but the 67 rogue was breaking the sheep, claiming "I can solo it, don't worry."

    I left that group in short order, I did,.

    rehtonAesoohC on
    Was wowed by Rift so I'm trying that now.
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    SH is fairly well optimized for aoe tanking, but I find most 5 mans to be fairly similar in that regard, as long as you utilize LOS to make sure the ranged mobs end up in your consecration as well. Granted, I've yet to take my paladin into Mr T, but as long as you put those archways/barriers/pieces of crap laying around to use, it's pretty simple.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • rizriz Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I will never forget my first SH run in beta. We were capped at level 67, first of all. No clue what was in there. Warrior tank, my druid (I think I had some weird hybrid spec), holy priest, hunter, and I think a warlock. Imagine our abject horror on Vent every time we finished a pull and saw that the next pull had even MORE mobs. The hunter's pet wolf was off-tanking/soloing caster mobs since it was specced into SR. I think that instance is part of what sealed the deal on said warrior rerolling, because at that point druids were looking like the tank of choice with swipe spam, etc., and he was all emo about warriors sucking. Good times.

    riz on
    Organichu wrote:
    she's some sort of malevolent creature who bores through this world into the next using hatred and suffering as her fuel
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Forar wrote: »
    SH is fairly well optimized for aoe tanking, but I find most 5 mans to be fairly similar in that regard, as long as you utilize LOS to make sure the ranged mobs end up in your consecration as well. Granted, I've yet to take my paladin into Mr T, but as long as you put those archways/barriers/pieces of crap laying around to use, it's pretty simple.

    Mr T does require use of LoS for a large chunk of the instance although if you have access to a CS or silence you can avoid a lot of the LoS. Crypts however is still the hands down king of instances in which abusing LoS changes it dramatically.

    Thomamelas on
  • lionheart_mlionheart_m Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I hope they give DKs (and warriors...especially warriors) a good idiot buffer like druids and paladins currently have. I don't care, Mortal Cleave or something. I finally found what Swipe did and it's broken. I thought it was a next attack deal like Cleave, but Instant cast hit on 3 mobs? I WTB more of that on my warrior.

    lionheart_m on
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  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Uh, yeah, warriors get lots of stuff druids don't. Claiming something is broken after hearing about it once is dumb.

    edit: Fuck, consecrate is like 55 damage per second plus spell damage across as many mobs that are standing in it.

    shadowane on
    Rich on Beer - I talk about drinking beer. You read about it.
  • lionheart_mlionheart_m Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I'm just venting :P

    What? Spells too much trouble for druids? Oh you want Spell Reflect? :rotate:

    EDIT: And you gotta love when your average paladin tank outdps Rogues and Huntards in heroic SH.

    EDIT EDIT: I know I do. Go Go 427 SPD.

    lionheart_m on
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  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I was going to use that as an example actually. hehe.

    shadowane on
    Rich on Beer - I talk about drinking beer. You read about it.
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Swipe is so remotely far from being broken, and spell reflect is actually pretty awesome.

    Septus on
    PSN: Kurahoshi1
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Swipe hasn't been 'broken' since they removed the extra threat component like 6 months ago. It's good, of course, but it's not "broken" in any regard.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • lionheart_mlionheart_m Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Well broken is definitely not the word. It just seems that a warrior would need a similar tool to acomplish AoE tanking with a bigger idiot buffer. Because it's doable. AoE tanking 4 mobs? Yes it's doable, but it demands that your group pays much more attention than with a druid and even less with a paladin. I'm no game designer (thank God), but if warriors want to be more fun to tank with or just have an easier job with multi mob tanking (which has become a standard in TBC 5 mans and will probably continue in WoTLK) they need to give him some new abilities to do so effectively.

    lionheart_m on
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  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Not every class should be exactly the same. Warriors not awesome in multi-mob tanking?
    Well, they're pretty damn awesome in single mob tanking

    autono-wally, erotibot300 on
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  • lionheart_mlionheart_m Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Yeah. I suppose.

    So, I predict we won't see DK info till November. Who's with me?

    lionheart_m on
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  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Not every class should be exactly the same. Warriors not awesome in multi-mob tanking?
    Well, they're pretty damn awesome in single mob tanking

    This, plus, improved thunderclap is not exactly terrible threat, and you have CC and kill orders for 5 man instances.

    Septus on
    PSN: Kurahoshi1
  • kaleeditykaleedity Sometimes science is more art than science Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    imo, warriors are now better than druids at multimob tanking

    The only problem is that no warriors, or infinitely few, spam tc on big pulls for some reason -- far more warriors spam demo shout than tc when trying to generate threat on multiple mobs. I mean, I'm talking about warriors in 70 raiding guilds I've been in. You'd think they'd know demo shout generates like 2 threat.

    Thunderclap/improved tc is insanely good. I'd say it's better than consecrate until you hit more than four targets.

    kaleedity on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Yeah. I suppose.

    So, I predict we won't see DK info till November. Who's with me?

    Not at all.

    We've got the big Paris thing coming in June (or whenever it is), and Blizzard is going to be pimping WLK and SC2 hard. And what are the big things for this expansion? Northrend, new class, inscription, level 80.

    They might leave something big to give us a giant boost in enthusiasm as things dwindle back down in late summer/early fall, but assuming a Novemberish release, and recalling roughly how the timeline went for TBC's info, there's no way they'd wait until mere weeks before release to really get us salivating.

    I think we'll see snippets here and there over the next two months (literal 60 days or so) and then late June / early July we'll see a tidal wave of info.

    Release dates and/or info releases that happen to coincide with timeframes that might help keep the eyes of those who might be tempted to wander to AoC / WHO may or may not surprise me at all.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    kaleedity wrote: »
    imo, warriors are now better than druids at multimob tanking

    The only problem is that no warriors, or infinitely few, spam tc on big pulls for some reason -- far more warriors spam demo shout than tc when trying to generate threat on multiple mobs. I mean, I'm talking about warriors in 70 raiding guilds I've been in. You'd think they'd know demo shout generates like 2 threat.

    Thunderclap/improved tc is insanely good. I'd say it's better than consecrate until you hit more than four targets.

    Our warriors have become moderately good at AoE tanking with lots of tab targeting. It's harder for them, but they do well enough.

    Thomamelas on
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Thunderclap is about 625 threat to four targets, usable every 4 seconds. It's not gonna hold aoe damage, but with some tab-devastating or shield slamming, it probably ought to cover threat from healing in most cases.

    I don't recall, how long before TBC was released, did we see the first talent trees?

    Septus on
    PSN: Kurahoshi1
  • kaleeditykaleedity Sometimes science is more art than science Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I personally expect new talents when season 4 comes out.

    Ok, I guess I should say that I crazily hope they'll repeat what they did at level 60. In reality, they probably realize that was a mistake because it broke the game so hard for some classes.

    I do, however, expect new spell/talent information along with dk basics around the time season 4 comes out.

    kaleedity on
  • OscrethOscreth Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    kaleedity wrote: »
    I personally expect new talents when season 4 comes out.

    Ok, I guess I should say that I crazily hope they'll repeat what they did at level 60. In reality, they probably realize that was a mistake because it broke the game so hard for some classes.

    I do, however, expect new spell/talent information along with dk basics around the time season 4 comes out.

    Yeah, putting out the new talents with S4 probably won't happen due to balancing issues for the E-Sport that Blizzard wants ArenaWoW to be.

    I would like it though. Wouldn't that be great if the new talents were released, making Shadowpriests tanks viable in pvp, Destro locks OP in 2's and 3's, Prot Paladins THE new arena spec, and Druids even more OP . . . and just overall throw things into a jumble. OH the crying on the forums about gear, spec, classes.

    Of course it would all be figured out in a matter of two weeks and everyone re-spec, re-compose their teams. But it would be a fun wrench in the system.

    Oscreth on
    Old man, family, works too hard, locked into a routine, but still plays with army men and video games.

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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    kaleedity wrote: »
    Thunderclap/improved tc is insanely good. I'd say it's better than consecrate until you hit more than four targets.

    Yeah except no

    Dhalphir on
  • Little JimLittle Jim __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2008
    it's about the same as consecrate on 4 dudes but only if you have defiance and improved TC

    my poor little pvp warrior doesn't like tanking MrT very much at all

    Little Jim on
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  • ImperfectImperfect Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Well, certainly not your PvP warrior.

    Imperfect on
  • TheEmergedTheEmerged Registered User
    edited April 2008
    We have signal! Granted it's not much but it's more than what we had...

    Scroll down to post 37, then 51. The following quotes lose some of the context so if you can follow the link, do so.
    Bornakk wrote:
    We haven't completely finalized a number, but we plan to have them start at a level lower than 70. We didn't have Draenei or Blood Elves start at a higher level when they first entered the game so we are aiming to make this Hero Class at a good level to learn abilities but also get to Northrend a little faster.

    We did consider the option of "converting" an existing character to a Deathknight, it was one of the first thoughts really, we just have to keep in mind what also sounds like fun game play. Leveling a character just to throw it away doesn't really fit this very well.

    I understand that it may not be your favorite part, but leveling is part of the game, especially when creating a new character. The extra boost in leveling should help introduce the epic-ness (is that a word?) of the first Hero Class and give people more of a chance to try it out. While they may be a little behind in leveling, Deathknights will find their way into raid groups too, just like Shaman and Paladins did for the Alliance and Horde when they were first introduced.

    Oh, and you should do quests for leveling, not grind, it's much more fun that way.

    Later (post 86), he continues...
    Bornakk wrote:
    So you lose the character you worked on just to TRY a new class? Does it sound like fun gameplay to have an awesome epic new Hero Class that you can't even try until you have something to throw away? What if you don't like it?

    These are things that have been brought up and just some of the thoughts on why we wouldn't want to do a conversion system. While you lose the items and such, you are free to role play the conversion on your own if that is what you are looking for.

    In post 94, he continues to address the concerns of players that want to "convert" their character in a DK.
    Bornakk wrote:
    There are lots of ways that it can be twisted and turn into how it works, but it either doesn't sound fun or doesn't make much sense. Being able to change your class at will doesn't make much sense to me and really seems to diminish the idea of being a Death Knight. "Hey guys, time to PvP, I'll go grab my Death Knight helmet again!" Doesn't that sound weird to you too?

    If you want to role play the conversion of a player who lost everything and is now a Death Knight, by all means, go for it. But your other character is there is you need it. Players can always change their mind down the road which just leads to problems with the conversion method and creating a new character is just better and more fun all around.

    And then (Post 100 and 114), because apparently some people reeeeeally want to convert...
    Bornakk wrote:
    So why not just give the player more freedom and option by allowing them to change back and forth at will by having another character? Sounds like this would work best based on what was said here. Yeah, you don't have the items (that may or may not be helpful) or the reputations (who would immediately trust a Death Knight?), but you have more options available on what you want to play on the given day.

    I don't see where the conflict is. Experienced players probably have created alt character in the past, now they'd have one more where they don't start completely from scratch but have a decent number of levels to learn the class. New players can take the time to learn how the game world works and once they reach a high enough point they can try out the Hero Class.

    You might want to follow the link to get all the context...

    TheEmerged on
    Sometimes, the knights are the monsters
  • OremLKOremLK Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I always thought their reasoning was obvious on that particular issue. I do think they should start Death Knights at level 1 like every other character, though, if they're taking this route.

    Now, here is what I honestly would have preferred, and have always wished they would do:

    Make Hero classes additional talent trees for the classes they go with, unlockable through quests. Putting points in said talent trees would require sacrificing some of your class's other abilities and perhaps stats to gain the ones suitable for the hero class, but you could, to some extent, pick and choose what to sacrifice and gain. You could always respec back out of the Hero class and go back to being a standard class, though.

    This would require having at least one Hero class for each standard class at their introduction, though.

    OremLK on
  • ImperfectImperfect Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I liked that idea too, only this was back when they were planning on doing that with ALL the classes at once, and for the first expansion.

    Imperfect on
  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    The extra talent trees idea creates more problems though. You either have every-one using the same spec or you have a hero class spec that doesn't seem sufficiently heroic. Plus you can only have hero classes that are based on the current classes rather than being free to make something completely different.

    I prefer the way they're doing it really, my only concern is that they add an extra character slot for WoTLK so altholics like myself aren't forced to delete a character to make room for a DK.

    -SPI- on
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Well, what I think would be preferable, is some additional tree, with additional special heroic talent points to use in it, and you'd keep the same talents in your standard tree.

    But you'd have to do that for every class at once, and it'd have to be pretty significant to make you feel heroic. Death Knights might be a bit of a cop-out, but it seems far more manageable for Blizzard and less likely to be fucked up.

    Septus on
    PSN: Kurahoshi1
  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I guess with the inscription profession we're kind of getting something akin to an extra set of talent points already. While it wouldn't involve entirely NEW skills, we're still getting a substantial amount of new character customisation. Not anywhere near to the extent of a new talent tree but I guess inscription is how Blizz figured they could put in further talent customisation without screwing too much with the talent trees themselves.

    -SPI- on
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