[WoW] Death Knights Hoo!: Druids don't need shields to tank, and neither do we!

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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Inscription should be interesting, depending on just how customizable it is.

    Assuming that they truly are like enchants, we will see ones that are more beneficial for pvp, and others that are more beneficial for pve.

    Now, unless inscription materials are shockingly inexpensive, might this not just widen the gap between the devout PVP'ers and PVE'ers? Would you want to respect to the tune of 100 gold per weekend for arenas/BG's, and then hundreds or thousands of gold for new inscriptions? PVP'ers might find it even harder to break into the world of raiding if they even want to (lawlarenas) without an even more significant investment in new inscriptions, etc.

    I'm curious how they'll manage that system without making inscriptions either game breaking (you know that at least ONE is going to be way too good / nerfed into oblivion by 3.1) or so unappealing that it remains a bastard child profession.

    Of course, they're going to have a LOT of work to do in order to balance the professions in WLK anyway, to make them all equally useful/appealing.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • OatsOats Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I do like what they did with engineering (goggles, mostly, but the Sunwell ones are so pretty.)

    I'd also like to see less patterns up for rep, and more in the ways of discoveries a la Alchemy.

    As for deathknights, parry-tanking could be interesting, if that is the mechanic they go for.

    Oats on
  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Ugh, no. No discoveries!

    edit: And parry tanking will only work if they model their dps based on it because of the swing haste caused by a parry.

    shadowane on
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  • OatsOats Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I can see them switching around the mechanic for parry though. It's not an unreasonable change to balance out DKs for tankering purposes.

    Oats on
  • FryholeFryhole Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    It just makes me wonder if everyone arguing for the DK to start at level 1 have even played an alt or have a character at 70. The group of players in my circle has no interest and can't even get an alt past level 20. To some of us, having the class not start at level 1 is a selling point, believe it or not. Just my 2 cents.

    Fryhole on
  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Fryhole wrote: »
    It just makes me wonder if everyone arguing for the DK to start at level 1 have even played an alt or have a character at 70. The group of players in my circle has no interest and can't even get an alt past level 20. To some of us, having the class not start at level 1 is a selling point, believe it or not. Just my 2 cents.
    I totally wouldn't bother with one if it started at lvl 1.

    815165 on
  • PierceNeckPierceNeck Simi Valley, CARegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Yes, I'm definately looking forward to not having to start at level 1.

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  • WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    No way will you start at level 1. From the preview stuff I saw, it looks like the character starts in Strat through some quest there. I'm guessing that the DK will start either @ level 60 or higher.

    Wavechaser on
    PierceNeck wrote: »
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  • EriEri Registered User
    edited April 2008
    The starting in stratholme was a possibility they were toying with, iirc.

    Eri on
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  • rehtonAesoohCrehtonAesoohC Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    That would be freaking awesome if they made you level 60 and gave you a quest that had you slay Baron Rivendare... solo. Oh wait, hero classes don't mean overpowered. Darn.

    rehtonAesoohC on
    Was wowed by Rift so I'm trying that now.
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Why would it have to be overpowered?

    It wouldn't necessarily have to be the exact same Baron that we fought. There could be NPC's involved in the fight, special abilities that faded as you defeated him and fled, or some of the DK abilities might do significant extra damage / mitigate extra damage to make him a solable encounter, just like they made the Paladin Seals have an extra effect in Scholomance for that one part of the epic mount chain.

    That said, it'd be awesome and epic if it were the culmination of a series of quest chains that required you to use all of your abilities (up to that point) to bring everyone up to speed.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • HallowedFaithHallowedFaith Call me Cloud. Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I'm a bit worried over the expansion based on the way TBC went. I don't want to spend forever trying to manage awesome gear just to have it replaced by greens again that everyone has. I like my gear because I work hard for it, if someone can just buy the expansion and suddenly be as powerful as me, while all my old gear becomes useless, I would cry. Again.

    I'm also concerned over the idea of releasing a single hero class with the expansion. I mean, that is going to ding the economy to hell and back when you have 10 million Death Knights all of a sudden.

    I am however drooling over the possibilities of the Inscribing Profession. Specifically with Blink, I would like some distance increase. 30 yard blink? Yes please. (never gonna happen)

    HallowedFaith on
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  • LaurlunaLaurluna Registered User regular
    edited April 2008

    I am however drooling over the possibilities of the Inscribing Profession. Specifically with Blink, I would like some distance increase. 30 yard blink? Yes please. (never gonna happen)

    Shadowstep used to have a longer range, but trying to move a character those distances, with server/client lag ect, and get them behind someone made it not effective. It might work better with Blink, since you're just rocketing off in some random direction, but I dunno.

    Laurluna on
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  • PierceNeckPierceNeck Simi Valley, CARegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I thought I read somewhere that the gap in gear wasn't going to be as bad in WotLK.

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  • Beyond NormalBeyond Normal Lord Phender Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    PierceNeck wrote: »
    I thought I read somewhere that the gap in gear wasn't going to be as bad in WotLK.


    It won't be. Just look at the quest rewards from the Siltihus and EPL and then compare it to Hellfire. It was a whole different game then, and the gear gap was noticeable. Now look at quest rewards you get in SMV. Northrend greens will be like that.

    Beyond Normal on
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  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I'm a bit worried over the expansion based on the way TBC went. I don't want to spend forever trying to manage awesome gear just to have it replaced by greens again that everyone has. I like my gear because I work hard for it, if someone can just buy the expansion and suddenly be as powerful as me, while all my old gear becomes useless, I would cry. Again.

    I'm also concerned over the idea of releasing a single hero class with the expansion. I mean, that is going to ding the economy to hell and back when you have 10 million Death Knights all of a sudden.

    I am however drooling over the possibilities of the Inscribing Profession. Specifically with Blink, I would like some distance increase. 30 yard blink? Yes please. (never gonna happen)

    You won't see the mudflation happen as badly for three reasons:

    1. They aren't planning on changing the ilvl value of stats. They did with TBC for stamina.
    2. There won't be a massive philosophy change for itemization. Yes, I'm aware some items currently suck. I'm aware not every spec has perfect itemization. At the same time look at the dreadmist set and see if anything is really that badly itemized and a "Core" item.
    3. The gap between casuals and non-casuals isn't as large as it was before.

    Thomamelas on
  • HalfmexHalfmex I mock your value system You also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    PierceNeck wrote: »
    I thought I read somewhere that the gap in gear wasn't going to be as bad in WotLK.
    It won't be. Just look at the quest rewards from the Siltihus and EPL and then compare it to Hellfire. It was a whole different game then, and the gear gap was noticeable. Now look at quest rewards you get in SMV. Northrend greens will be like that.
    Eh, I'd say it'll be a bit more powerful than that. Northrend greens/quest rewards will probably be closer to Karazhan drops/Season 1 gear.

    Halfmex on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Balancing the playing field is intentional. If they never did it, then new players would never have a chance to catch up unless they happened to befriend someone high enough to drag them through content they could never touch otherwise (good luck gearing up new tanks with such a setup).

    Also, Blizzard has commented that the drastic "epics to greens" upgrades might not be quite as massive, as they aren't going to re-budget stamina again, which was a big part of the draw. They've even said that T6 level gear might remain viable up to 80, so time spent gearing up now might not be wasted at all.

    And the economy will survive just fine. DPS and tanking plate might see a surge in value, but assuming some measure of a starting set of gear, and not being too far from the Outlands, I imagine quested stuff will see people pretty far as well.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • rehtonAesoohCrehtonAesoohC Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I think the reason they itemized stamina like they did was because they stated before TBC came out that they wanted PvP fights to last for a lot longer and they were tired of players two-shotting other players. Well guess what they ended up with? Mages pyroblasting people for 6k +ignite damage, rogues ambushing for 5k, etc. All the while, the players getting hit with these insane amounts of damage only have 10-15k HP... PvP fight duration hasn't really changed much. I wonder if they realized they were back to where they started, so they'll just make weapons relatively less powerful and itemize stamina less.

    rehtonAesoohC on
    Was wowed by Rift so I'm trying that now.
  • Fig-DFig-D Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    WARNING: I HAVE NO PROOF OF THIS!

    I think I read somewhere that they wanted to make it so that mid-70 (65-66) instance blues would be on par with pre-Prince Kara epics / Season 1 gear and that high level (BT / Hyjal) epics wouldn't be replaced until the player gets new lvl 80 epics. Just don't ask me to provide any proof or anything because obviously I have none.

    Fig-D on
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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Halfmex wrote: »
    PierceNeck wrote: »
    I thought I read somewhere that the gap in gear wasn't going to be as bad in WotLK.
    It won't be. Just look at the quest rewards from the Siltihus and EPL and then compare it to Hellfire. It was a whole different game then, and the gear gap was noticeable. Now look at quest rewards you get in SMV. Northrend greens will be like that.
    Eh, I'd say it'll be a bit more powerful than that. Northrend greens/quest rewards will probably be closer to Karazhan drops/Season 1 gear.

    This is possible.

    Comparing them, many of the quest rewards/better itemized greens in the 60-63 range were on par with roughly T1, 64-66 or so T2, and 67-70 seemed to be about on par with T3ish, though I didn't replace my bracers (T3) until a quest reward rare at 70.

    I suspect T6/ilevel 146-151 epics will probably be roughly on par with D3, and probably useful at least initially into Naxx/T7, at which point one raid set will replace another, and that time spent gearing up for raids and to raid will pull double duty for levelling, and then BAM, new gear grind.

    At least, that's what I suspect/hope happens.

    Forar on
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  • Fig-DFig-D Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I think the reason they itemized stamina like they did was because they stated before TBC came out that they wanted PvP fights to last for a lot longer and they were tired of players two-shotting other players. Well guess what they ended up with? Mages pyroblasting people for 6k +ignite damage, rogues ambushing for 5k, etc. All the while, the players getting hit with these insane amounts of damage only have 10-15k HP... PvP fight duration hasn't really changed much. I wonder if they realized they were back to where they started, so they'll just make weapons relatively less powerful and itemize stamina less.

    That's where resilience comes into play, and it's, quite frankly, why I don't have fun in PvP anymore.

    Fig-D on
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  • EriEri Registered User
    edited April 2008
    I was thinking of a mechanic for DKs...maybe some sort of counter move.

    If anyone's played smash bros, one of the special moves (down+B) for two of the characters (Marth/Roy) was a counter, where the next incoming attack would be "blocked" and followed up with an attack in return.

    There could be different versions of this counter, perhaps counters for melee, range, and spell attacks...or different reprisals; you could counter an attack with an instant shadowbolt or an armor reducing strike.

    Eri on
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  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Sounds a little too twitchy for WoW.

    Bigity on
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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I think they could do better.

    The "you did X so I get to do Y" thing is already done by warriors, but part of the problem is that you're limited by the global cooldown, so the more things you try to tank, the more X happens, but you may not be able to keep up proportionally with Y (due to the GCD, a cooldown on the ability, or otherwise).

    Sure, they could just have the effect be a small AOE or something, but I'm not sure it would differentiate them enough from warriors.

    Well, unless the mechanic was fun as hell and didn't suck ass like warrior multi-mob tanking can.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • Fig-DFig-D Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Something along the lines of tanking Overpower then? Available after parrying, it causes 50% weapon damage and reduces all damage done by the target for 15 sec by 5%, stacks three times. Sounds reasonable to me anyway.

    EDIT: Better yet, on next incoming melee attack, independent of your own attacks. 10 second cooldown though so you can't spam it and there is a possibility the debuff could wear off.

    Fig-D on
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  • DissociaterDissociater Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I think the reason they itemized stamina like they did was because they stated before TBC came out that they wanted PvP fights to last for a lot longer and they were tired of players two-shotting other players. Well guess what they ended up with? Mages pyroblasting people for 6k +ignite damage, rogues ambushing for 5k, etc. All the while, the players getting hit with these insane amounts of damage only have 10-15k HP... PvP fight duration hasn't really changed much. I wonder if they realized they were back to where they started, so they'll just make weapons relatively less powerful and itemize stamina less.

    Yeah they failed big time with this. That's part of why pvp has lost a lot of its luster to me. Sure everyone has 12-15k hp, but my warlock, in pretty average gear (meaning I have epics in every slot but not good epics) can crit sbolts on people for 5k+

    The fact that having purples in every slot is average just shows how lame pvp's become. When epics are more common than greens and blues, there's something wrong. I was hoping they'd fix it in WotLK but it's starting to look like they're going to keep with the item inflation.

    Dissociater on
  • ImperfectImperfect Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    It'd be really nice if there were a level ABOVE epic but BELOW legendary. I mean, Heroic-drop or early-crafted epics simply AREN'T comparable at all to Season 3 stuff - these are very clearly different levels. It'd be nice to have a different visual indicator to make that explicit.

    Imperfect on
  • DissociaterDissociater Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Well it seems to me that the advantage of a gear reset, in upping the level cap, is that it allows them to combat item inflation. But they're choosing not to go that route, instead they made epics easier to get and now everyone's got them. So instead of the hardcore raiders being overpowered in pvp, now EVERYone's over powered in PVP. Fights are even shorter now than I remember back in the level 60 days. But I'm sure other people have different experiences there.

    Dissociater on
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Well it seems to me that the advantage of a gear reset, in upping the level cap, is that it allows them to combat item inflation. But they're choosing not to go that route, instead they made epics easier to get and now everyone's got them. So instead of the hardcore raiders being overpowered in pvp, now EVERYone's over powered in PVP. Fights are even shorter now than I remember back in the level 60 days. But I'm sure other people have different experiences there.

    To some degree. I'm curious to see how they handle tank gear inflation.

    Thomamelas on
  • HalfmexHalfmex I mock your value system You also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Imperfect wrote: »
    It'd be really nice if there were a level ABOVE epic but BELOW legendary. I mean, Heroic-drop or early-crafted epics simply AREN'T comparable at all to Season 3 stuff - these are very clearly different levels. It'd be nice to have a different visual indicator to make that explicit.
    I think one big change between pre-TBC/today is how worthless greens have become. Sure, lots of folks had greens in the early TBC days, but there were so many blues, BoEs and craftables that people could have epics quite a bit more quickly.

    While I don't agree with the "why does everyone have epics" argument to the extent that people want to go back to the old days where only the hardcore raiders had them, I do think that the epics have been devalued to a point.

    On the other hand, it must be considered that we're all (well, in most cases) level 70, and 60 was considered 'epic level'. Given that the devs are wanting to start DKs at a high level, it lends credence to the thought that even when the level cap gets removed, we're still talking about high-level, and therefore epic, characters. Greens make a bit less sense when you go from having warglaives and the Cursed Vision of Sargeras to 'Blankety Blank of the Blank' in those slots.

    Still, even legendaries went from 'things you ran multiple instances many times to acquire all of the materials for' to 'thing that drops'. That, in my mind, is even more frownworthy.

    Halfmex on
  • Fig-DFig-D Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    Well it seems to me that the advantage of a gear reset, in upping the level cap, is that it allows them to combat item inflation. But they're choosing not to go that route, instead they made epics easier to get and now everyone's got them. So instead of the hardcore raiders being overpowered in pvp, now EVERYone's over powered in PVP. Fights are even shorter now than I remember back in the level 60 days. But I'm sure other people have different experiences there.

    To some degree. I'm curious to see how they handle tank gear inflation.

    Stack more useless defense instead of giving me the block value I want.

    Fig-D on
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  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Halfmex wrote: »
    Imperfect wrote: »
    It'd be really nice if there were a level ABOVE epic but BELOW legendary. I mean, Heroic-drop or early-crafted epics simply AREN'T comparable at all to Season 3 stuff - these are very clearly different levels. It'd be nice to have a different visual indicator to make that explicit.
    I think one big change between pre-TBC/today is how worthless greens have become. Sure, lots of folks had greens in the early TBC days, but there were so many blues, BoEs and craftables that people could have epics quite a bit more quickly.

    While I don't agree with the "why does everyone have epics" argument to the extent that people want to go back to the old days where only the hardcore raiders had them, I do think that the epics have been devalued to a point.

    On the other hand, it must be considered that we're all (well, in most cases) level 70, and 60 was considered 'epic level'. Given that the devs are wanting to start DKs at a high level, it lends credence to the thought that even when the level cap gets removed, we're still talking about high-level, and therefore epic, characters. Greens make a bit less sense when you go from having warglaives and the Cursed Vision of Sargeras to 'Blankety Blank of the Blank' in those slots.

    Still, even legendaries went from 'things you ran multiple instances many times to acquire all of the materials for' to 'thing that drops'. That, in my mind, is even more frownworthy.

    Having a legendary in my bank, I can assure you that the multiple run part of legendaries didn't make it any more special or memorable to me. The moment of the eye dropping and the trip to get the hammer forged, and then standing in IF while the guild cheered...those were the special moments. From talking to our TF owners, the quest to kill to complete TF was the special moment. I would comment on our Alteshs....but we never got any due to an insanely low drop rate and needing 40! shards.

    It wasn't the running of the instances that made building legendaries cool. It was the special quests and side requirements. Running MC over and over and praying for an ingot drop sucked ass.

    Thomamelas on
  • Fig-DFig-D Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    When I left my old MC guild they had 5 right bindings. I understand that they finally got one left binding months after I left in a MC shits and giggles run when they couldn't get the 40 together for Nef.

    Fig-D on
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  • HalfmexHalfmex I mock your value system You also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    It wasn't the running of the instances that made building legendaries cool. It was the special quests and side requirements. Running MC over and over and praying for an ingot drop sucked ass.
    That was pretty much the message I was going for. My point is that just having legendaries drop on a loot table diminishes their value to an extent.

    But no, I'll never be a proponent of the RNG in any form.

    Halfmex on
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    Well it seems to me that the advantage of a gear reset, in upping the level cap, is that it allows them to combat item inflation. But they're choosing not to go that route, instead they made epics easier to get and now everyone's got them. So instead of the hardcore raiders being overpowered in pvp, now EVERYone's over powered in PVP. Fights are even shorter now than I remember back in the level 60 days. But I'm sure other people have different experiences there.

    To some degree. I'm curious to see how they handle tank gear inflation.

    yeah, tanks are the only ones that pretty much dont get much NEW in the way of stats.

    you can't get much more avoidance or fights will be trivialized, so you'll probably still have about 50% avoidance in endgame WotLK. the only thing increasing will be your stamina.

    Dhalphir on
  • reVersereVerse Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    But stamina is great! I nearly shit my pants when I finally broke 10k health on my Druid way way back.

    (I'm only at 14k nowadays because I don't raid.)

    reVerse on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Tank inflation will be easily handled the same way that rogue crit inflation was (and you can pretty much thank Blizzard/us for this one); "Rating".

    They just tweak how much "rating" you require to recieve "X" which gives "Y" benefit, and you're golden.

    So, it takes 16 hit rating (roughly, yes, I'm aware it's like 15.77) to give 1% actual "+Hit" at 70? So bump that up to 30 points at 80! Ta da! You've just nearly halfed every rogue's +Hit as they levelled up, and now they have to do the gear grind all over.

    Tanks? Sure you risk giving them +Block in the thousands if you're not careful, but defense, block rating, parry rating and dodge rating are all easily suceptable to a solid beating simply by adding 10 more levels and tweaking the amount given/required.

    It'll be WoW: DBZ edition: same damned thing, just with much bigger numbers.

    (also: in before "OVER 9000!")

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • reVersereVerse Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Forar wrote: »
    They just tweak how much "rating" you require to recieve "X" which gives "Y" benefit, and you're golden.

    So, it takes 16 hit rating (roughly, yes, I'm aware it's like 15.77) to give 1% actual "+Hit" at 70? So bump that up to 30 points at 80! Ta da! You've just nearly halfed every rogue's +Hit as they levelled up, and now they have to do the gear grind all over.

    Yes, that was the idea when they came up with ratings. Congratulations on just figuring it out, you're only a year late with this realization.

    reVerse on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    No, I figured it out when they gave us the patch notes describing it.

    Also; who shat in your cereal?

    That wasn't a "?: Oh wow, I just realized this", that was "?: Let me lay something out Socratically without having an actual conversation".

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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