[WoW] Death Knights Hoo!: Druids don't need shields to tank, and neither do we!

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  • Soviet WaffleSoviet Waffle Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I'm going to lay out your face with my fist

    Soviet Waffle on
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  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Forar wrote: »
    Tank inflation will be easily handled the same way that rogue crit inflation was (and you can pretty much thank Blizzard/us for this one); "Rating".

    They just tweak how much "rating" you require to recieve "X" which gives "Y" benefit, and you're golden.

    So, it takes 16 hit rating (roughly, yes, I'm aware it's like 15.77) to give 1% actual "+Hit" at 70? So bump that up to 30 points at 80! Ta da! You've just nearly halfed every rogue's +Hit as they levelled up, and now they have to do the gear grind all over.

    Tanks? Sure you risk giving them +Block in the thousands if you're not careful, but defense, block rating, parry rating and dodge rating are all easily suceptable to a solid beating simply by adding 10 more levels and tweaking the amount given/required.

    It'll be WoW: DBZ edition: same damned thing, just with much bigger numbers.

    (also: in before "OVER 9000!")

    Oh, I know there is a way to handle it with ratings. But with the way tank stuff scales, it's much, much easier for us to hit our harder caps (stats that scale to 100%) then it is for other archetypes. To illustrate there is theorycrafting on how tanks can hit the avoidance cap. Passive uncrushability. We can see bursts of 100% dodge on druids.

    BV/Stamina/Expertise are bleed offs but generally the benefits of the other stats tends to be much higher then those three.

    Thomamelas on
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Ratings wasn't my point.

    I don't look at my gear and see...400 dodge rating, or whatever it is i have (i dont even know). I see 24.83% dodge.

    whether it takes 400 dodge rating at level 70 or over 9000 dodge rating at level 80 to get 24.83% dodge, I'm still going to be seeing 24.83% dodge everytime i look at my character, thus my original point that all tanks will see is an increase in HP

    Dhalphir on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Well, you guys can dabble in Expertise now (moreso than the days of Weapon Skill at least)... maybe they'll come up with another mechanic for you to balance.

    And thus, open up new bleed offs for stats in item budgets for you guys.

    Also, something else for people to have retarded 100 page discussions comparing 1 rating of X vs 1 rating of Y, how the are or aren't useful to certain levels per class, etc, etc, etc! Hooray!

    Forar on
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  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Forar wrote: »
    Well, you guys can dabble in Expertise now (moreso than the days of Weapon Skill at least)... maybe they'll come up with another mechanic for you to balance.

    And thus, open up new bleed offs for stats in item budgets for you guys.

    Also, something else for people to have retarded 100 page discussions comparing 1 rating of X vs 1 rating of Y, how the are or aren't useful to certain levels per class, etc, etc, etc! Hooray!

    Right, the problem is that expertise is a really limited stat in terms of usefulness. And it's another hard cap to hit.

    Thomamelas on
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    what i would like to see are more fights where tanks can do more than sit still, watching their cooldowns, and relying on their percentage stats and their healers to keep them alive.

    the Grandmaster Vorpil fight in Shadow Labs is a fun example, where its almost a tank dance to keep him away from his voidwalkers.

    I haven't tanked the Flames on Illidan yet but I imagine its quite similar and I hope i get a go at it. But yeah, more fights where the tank has to move a lot please.

    Dhalphir on
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    what i would like to see are more fights where tanks can do more than sit still, watching their cooldowns, and relying on their percentage stats and their healers to keep them alive.

    the Grandmaster Vorpil fight in Shadow Labs is a fun example, where its almost a tank dance to keep him away from his voidwalkers.

    I haven't tanked the Flames on Illidan yet but I imagine its quite similar and I hope i get a go at it. But yeah, more fights where the tank has to move a lot please.

    BT has a number of running fights. More so then SSC or TK.

    Thomamelas on
  • OatsOats Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Having just hit 70 and started tanky, Vorpil is a lot of fun.

    I too wish for more tanking-on-the-move fights.

    Oats on
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Fig-D wrote: »
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    Well it seems to me that the advantage of a gear reset, in upping the level cap, is that it allows them to combat item inflation. But they're choosing not to go that route, instead they made epics easier to get and now everyone's got them. So instead of the hardcore raiders being overpowered in pvp, now EVERYone's over powered in PVP. Fights are even shorter now than I remember back in the level 60 days. But I'm sure other people have different experiences there.

    To some degree. I'm curious to see how they handle tank gear inflation.

    Stack more useless defense instead of giving me the block value I want.

    Pfft, who wants Block Value?
    Here's more defense.
    I don't care if you hit the cap ages ago, you NEED MORE.

    The Muffin Man on
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited April 2008
    A new class won't fix the tanking shortage. Nobody likes to tank because that's all they do. Tank mobs. A healer may suck at farming, but they can still PvP or raid. Tanks have a harder time farming and on top of that don't have any function in PvP. New class will have the same problems.

    Best solution is the druid path where tanking sides with dps. Aaaaannd...that leaves you with two other trees to fill. A pure tank tree and pure dps tree would just leave the dps/tank tree abandoned.

    PvP needs to evolve to fit tanks in somewhere.

    Sterica on
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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    i would be happy if the only change they made was to make taunts actually force players to attack you for 5 (obviously maybe a different length) seconds.

    Dhalphir on
  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Or debuff a player so that they do less damage to every target except you (stolen from WAR).

    815165 on
  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    i would be happy if the only change they made was to make taunts actually force players to attack you for 5 (obviously maybe a different length) seconds.
    Taunt only lasts 3 seconds on mobs in the first place. I think the only thing Blizzard would allow for taunt to do is change the target to you since they've already said having a forced target lock is something they won't do.

    Opty on
  • XhaztolXhaztol Registered User
    edited April 2008
    I've been personally of the thought that their statement about adding one hero class per expansion (and with each expansion coming roughly 1.75 years after one another) might be a little absurd. You can say "Look how many people play it, they can afford to do that" all you want, but I think Death Knight will launch with the expansion, but there might be the possibility of them introducing another hero class with one of their bangbuster content patches halfway through or near the end of Lich King. Yes, with such a huge player base, I expect WoW to last a long time, but not long enough to add a only ONE new hero classe once every nearly 2 years. It's aging rather rapidly for some (don't get me wrong, I still play it and love it), but with the casual route it's taking, it might need to continually work harder to hook and keep people in the future.

    I honestly see them adding Death Knight, and probably something priestly or warlocky or even magey to go with the the theme.

    Thoughts?

    Xhaztol on
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  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I hope the next Hero class is Runemaster mainly because a rune system's already in place for the Death Knight and because Runemasters are awesome.

    Opty on
  • Fig-DFig-D Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Opty wrote: »
    I hope the next Hero class is Runemaster mainly because a rune system's already in place for the Death Knight and because Runemasters are awesome.

    I hoped that at one point, but not anymore. Runemasters make sense with Tauren and Dwarfs, two races that don't have very many class options anyway, but Blizzard is going for the whole every race can be a hero class thing with Death Knights and it scares me. It only takes one blood elf Runemaster for me to want to punch someone.

    Fig-D on
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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    why are death knights even being called a hero class

    why can't they just say "we're adding a new class, it starts at level 50 ok"

    Dhalphir on
  • XhaztolXhaztol Registered User
    edited April 2008
    To distinguish it. If new players came in and were like "Why isn't my hunter starting at level 50?" they'd get confused.

    Xhaztol on
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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Because years and years ago, Blizzard had another idea entirely for "hero classes" and have since abandoned it, however the truly ravenous fans/addicts get all feisty when they said anything to the tune of abandoning said idea, so they just took what their new idea was and called it "hero classes".

    So the fans can STFU, they're getting a "hero class", even if it's not a "hero class" as originally envisioned.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    why are death knights even being called a hero class

    why can't they just say "we're adding a new class, it starts at level 50 ok"

    Well, as far as "lore" goes, I'm going to say that Death Knights are more powerful than the other classes.

    It is a hero class...except for it's powers and gameplay balance.

    Septus on
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  • Soviet WaffleSoviet Waffle Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    THE PACT IS SEALED

    Soviet Waffle on
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  • kaleeditykaleedity Sometimes science is more art than science Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    shield block = death pact?

    kaleedity on
  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I kinda hope they don't keep adding loads of new classes, eventually there'll be too much overlap between them all; there's only so many types of abilities.

    815165 on
  • OremLKOremLK Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Forar wrote: »
    Because years and years ago, Blizzard had another idea entirely for "hero classes" and have since abandoned it, however the truly ravenous fans/addicts get all feisty when they said anything to the tune of abandoning said idea, so they just took what their new idea was and called it "hero classes".

    So the fans can STFU, they're getting a "hero class", even if it's not a "hero class" as originally envisioned.

    This is basically it. I liked the original vision better. And I would rather they call this what it is, and also, start DKs at level 1.

    OremLK on
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I'm pretty sure they said Death Knights would start at not-level 1.

    Henroid on
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  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Yes, we know that. Orem is just obsessed with them starting at level 1.

    shadowane on
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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Anyone who craves a level 1 Deathknight can always just take their fresh level 5x, strip 'em naked, and spend the first "20 levels" in the noob zones punching things to death, and then maybe put on some greys and go to the middlish zones and hack some shit to death, and then put their original gear on after /playing this way for 2-3 days and actually kill some worthwhile shit.

    That said, if Blizzard gave us two options (one to start at level 1, one to start at level 5x), I'd be fine with it.

    With the caveat that nothing would necessarily be itemized for level 1 DK's, it'd just give people a chance to wander through the early zones while level appropriate.

    Forar on
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  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    What kind of stats will a DK want? With the rune system it seems intellect and spirit will be useless. So maybe strength and spell damage, or maybe they'll have a way to convert strength to spell damage so you don't end up needing plate with no intellect but some spell damage?

    815165 on
  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    We don't know anything about them so we can't answer that question.

    shadowane on
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  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    You could wonder, though. :(

    815165 on
  • reVersereVerse Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I bet they rely on attack power and crit mainly. That way they can itemize them the same way they'd itemize dps warriors and retadins.

    reVerse on
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Fig-D wrote: »
    Opty wrote: »
    I hope the next Hero class is Runemaster mainly because a rune system's already in place for the Death Knight and because Runemasters are awesome.

    I hoped that at one point, but not anymore. Runemasters make sense with Tauren and Dwarfs, two races that don't have very many class options anyway, but Blizzard is going for the whole every race can be a hero class thing with Death Knights and it scares me. It only takes one blood elf Runemaster for me to want to punch someone.

    It makes even less sense now that the Blood Elves are actively trying t break away from their addiction. Suddenly slapping magic runes all over might be counter productive.

    It's like not having any nicotine for a month, and then deciding NOW'S the time to slap the Patch on.


    But if Blizzard cared about making sense, the Blood Elves would probably be sharing their new-found Holy Light with the Undead (who USED to worship it) and the Trolls (who worship a Primal equivalent).


    Goddammit I just want Voodoo Knights.

    The Muffin Man on
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Fig-D wrote: »
    Opty wrote: »
    I hope the next Hero class is Runemaster mainly because a rune system's already in place for the Death Knight and because Runemasters are awesome.

    I hoped that at one point, but not anymore. Runemasters make sense with Tauren and Dwarfs, two races that don't have very many class options anyway, but Blizzard is going for the whole every race can be a hero class thing with Death Knights and it scares me. It only takes one blood elf Runemaster for me to want to punch someone.

    It makes even less sense now that the Blood Elves are actively trying t break away from their addiction. Suddenly slapping magic runes all over might be counter productive.

    It's like not having any nicotine for a month, and then deciding NOW'S the time to slap the Patch on.


    But if Blizzard cared about making sense, the Blood Elves would probably be sharing their new-found Holy Light with the Undead (who USED to worship it) and the Trolls (who worship a Primal equivalent).


    Goddammit I just want Voodoo Knights.

    your sig was too tall

    thanatos said so

    Dhalphir on
  • TheEmergedTheEmerged Registered User
    edited April 2008
    RE: DK Itemization & Trees. I could be totally off base and this is pure speculation, but here's where I think they're going, versus where I'd go in their shoes.

    1> Attack Power is most likely to follow the warrior formula (pure Strength). There are too many classes that are hunting agility gear now. Personally I'd like to see something funky (like Strength+Spirit) but I suspect they don't want to create a wildly different set of itemization.

    2> Because of this, I'm beating their casting mechanic will still depend on Int & Spirit with benefit from spell damage, spell hit, etc no matter how different this new mechanic will be from the existing ones. Without knowing the new mechanic I can't speculate on how those attributes will affect it, but I'm willing to bet the mechanic will be affected by them.

    3> They'll have Dodge & Parry for mitigation. I'd expect to see a talent on the "tanking" tree ("req 10" or "req 20" most likely) that gives them a "block" or adds some block effects to their parry (perhaps they get healed for their block modifier on a successful parry).

    4> I don't think we'll see the strong lineups between their trees as most of the previous classes. I actively HOPE this part will be true. What I'm expecting is some variation of a tanking tree, a melee DPS tree, and a "casting" tree. I'm expecting to see more of what you see on talents like the Druid's "Naturalist" talent (has a lesser effect on both restoration & feral builds) in all three DK trees -- and hoping to see a LOT more of it.

    5> In particular, I suspect you'll see a DK equivalent of the shaman talent Mental Quickness -- personally I'd make a couple. I'm not talking about the mana cost reduction, but rather the "statistic that helps one tree has a lesser but additional benefit to the other tree". So perhaps a Melee DPS tree talent that causes some percentage of attack power to reduce damage from attacks, or a casting tree that causes spell damage to have a coefficient on melee attacks, and so forth. I think you'd have to put it in about the same spot on the tree, too (no lower than "req 25").

    6> I wouldn't be surprised if we see fewer talents with 5 points maximum, and more with 2-3. On the other hand, I won't be surprised if the early (pre "however many points a starting DK would have at whatever level we start them at") tiers are actually pretty narrow (to minimize the problems of not understanding which talents you're going to need). What I'd do is have the first four or five tiers of talents primarily consisting of 2/3/3 or 3/2/2 talent choices.

    6a> I also won't be shocked if the DK trees are only deep enough for however many levels they start out as. Let's say they start at 59th level just to have a number to throw around. Instead of having 11 tiers of talents like everyone else will (there are 9 now, I'm assuming only 2 more will be added), DK's just might only have 5 and start out with no talent points -- and at 80, they'll have 21 talent points. Combine this with liberal use of "crossover" talents in the other trees and you wouldn't have nearly as much to balance without losing much flexibility. The possible problem I see here is continuing to balance these "truncated trees" in later expansions.

    TheEmerged on
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  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    No offense, but the 6th choice would be horrible. It limits that class so much in my opinion not having the full gamut of points to use.

    shadowane on
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  • TheEmergedTheEmerged Registered User
    edited April 2008
    shadowane wrote: »
    No offense, but the 6th choice would be horrible. It limits that class so much in my opinion not having the full gamut of points to use.

    None taken (you'll note I said "I won't be shocked" not "I think it might be better"), although I assume you're talking about the truncated trees (I editted that post quite a bit so you may have posted in mid-edit). Having the 2/3/3 and 3/2/2 talent tiers would give more customization, not less.

    TheEmerged on
    Sometimes, the knights are the monsters
  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Sorry I meant 6a I guess. I don't like the idea of not giving them the full 51 talent points. Truncated trees just sounds like it would make differentiating different specs more difficult.

    shadowane on
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  • rizriz Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Ratings wasn't my point.

    I don't look at my gear and see...400 dodge rating, or whatever it is i have (i dont even know). I see 24.83% dodge.

    whether it takes 400 dodge rating at level 70 or over 9000 dodge rating at level 80 to get 24.83% dodge, I'm still going to be seeing 24.83% dodge everytime i look at my character, thus my original point that all tanks will see is an increase in HP

    It won't be much different for other classes with ratings stats. Casters are going to see increased spell power but hit/crit/haste is going to be exactly the same % for them as it is at 70 in similar gear levels, which was the whole idea. I guess I can enjoy seeing my warlocks HP and spell power go up? Not really that much more exciting than for tanks.

    riz on
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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    riz wrote: »
    It won't be much different for other classes with ratings stats. Casters are going to see increased spell power but hit/crit/haste is going to be exactly the same % for them as it is at 70 in similar gear levels, which was the whole idea. I guess I can enjoy seeing my warlocks HP and spell power go up? Not really that much more exciting than for tanks.

    But in turn, the mobs/players hit for more and have more HP, so in reality it's just a big Dragonball Zesque game of inflation.

    At level 10: OMG I CRIT THAT THING FOR 100 DAMAGE! (half its life)
    At level 60: OMG I CRIT THAT THING FOR 5000 DAMAGE! (half its life)
    At level 80: OMG I CRIT THAT THING FOR 10,000 DAMAGE! (half its life)

    Blizzard introduced absurb stamina and resilience into the game to make PVP take longer, and yet we still have certain classes effectively one to three-shotting others. The likelyhood of being 'zomg stunlocked from 100 to 0' has been reduced unless they vastly outgear their opposition (unless you're fighting a warrior with 'skillherald', of course, lawl) but are the fights really that much longer, or do they just involve bigger numbers?

    Forar on
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  • rehtonAesoohCrehtonAesoohC Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Forar wrote: »
    they just involve bigger numbers

    rehtonAesoohC on
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