[WoW] Death Knights Hoo!: Druids don't need shields to tank, and neither do we!

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  • HallowedFaithHallowedFaith Call me Cloud. Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Pretty much just bigger numbers.
    The way the HP inflation came about is similar to highway construction; A four lane highway is upgraded to a six lane highway in order to accommodate more traffic. However, by the time it is finished and integrated with the rest of the roadways, the amount of traffic has increased and now an eight lane highway is needed.

    Sometimes I think Blizzard forgets that they can balance with other things besides damage/hp ratio.

    HallowedFaith on
    I'm making video games. DesignBy.Cloud
  • -SPI--SPI- Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Pretty much just bigger numbers.
    The way the HP inflation came about is similar to highway construction; A four lane highway is upgraded to a six lane highway in order to accommodate more traffic. However, by the time it is finished and integrated with the rest of the roadways, the amount of traffic has increased and now an eight lane highway is needed.

    Sometimes I think Blizzard forgets that they can balance with other things besides damage/hp ratio.

    The way they made heroics seems to confirm this theory.

    -SPI- on
  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    -SPI- wrote: »
    Pretty much just bigger numbers.
    The way the HP inflation came about is similar to highway construction; A four lane highway is upgraded to a six lane highway in order to accommodate more traffic. However, by the time it is finished and integrated with the rest of the roadways, the amount of traffic has increased and now an eight lane highway is needed.

    Sometimes I think Blizzard forgets that they can balance with other things besides damage/hp ratio.

    The way they made heroics seems to confirm this theory.
    That only really applies to the trash in heroics, which lets face it if they had a load of complicated tricks instead noone would bother running them. Loads of the boss fights in heroics are far more interesting than the normal versions.

    815165 on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    And yet many of them are essentially identical to their original form, or the change is so subtle it's not even all that noticable.

    The first heroic I ever tried was Mechanar (first heroic boss kill on my server, so this was way before anyone even knew what the hard/easy ones were), and the change to the first boss with the "Thadius Mechanic" was awesome. I loved it.

    But many of the others just hit harder, or spawn adds a little faster, etc, which I found a bit disappointing.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Heroic mech's first boss is actually harder on normal, sometimes. I wish he couldn't be pulled to the stairs sometimes because it'd be a really interesting fight on heroic if everyone was in danger of being bombed. I love that boss on heroic, still.

    Murmur is the best example (that I can think of) where a boss goes from being super easy on normal to a really fun challenge on heroic.

    815165 on
  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    We don't pull him to the stairs. If you put him in the little dip right where his room begins (in the little V shaped depression where it raises up to the slightly elevated floor where the trash is, most of the bombs bounce off that and stay behind him.

    Then you mostly just have to worry about the charge or the shield, depending.

    Bigity on
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  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Off topic but I don't care: does anyone ever go right in mech, at the start?

    815165 on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Oh, I agree he can be harder, my point was that they added both an enrage AND the hurt/help debuff mechanic to the fight, which isn't present in the normal version. It's a vastly different fight in some ways, and thus, saddens me that I did it first and had the idea of heroic bosses being wildly different, rather than what we got (most of them aren't all that different).

    And yes, whenever possible, I go right first. Clear to the boss, run back, clear the other side, ignore a couple of really lame packs in the middle.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • ImperfectImperfect Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I didn't know he had an enrage. But I've always found him easier on Heroic than normal, yeah.

    Imperfect on
  • <3<3 Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I hate how they are overusing CC for everything.

    Yeah, CCs are nice to have, but it's ridiculous when it's an absolute that every dps class going in to a 5-man requires a form of CC.

    I'm looking at you, H MrT.

    <3 on
  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    what
    why
    you can do it without CC
    with enough dps

    autono-wally, erotibot300 on
    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I like to think of myself as being a form of CC personafied.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • <3<3 Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    what
    why
    you can do it without CC
    with enough dps

    How do you beat the Priestess with no CC?

    <3 on
  • reVersereVerse Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    what
    why
    you can do it without CC
    with enough dps

    How do you beat the Priestess with no CC?

    Get a team of moonkins?

    reVerse on
  • ImperfectImperfect Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    what
    why
    you can do it without CC
    with enough dps

    How do you beat the Priestess with no CC?

    Ugh, I've done it.

    Prot Warrior,
    Ele Shammy,
    Feral Druid,
    Afflic Warlock,
    Holy Priest.

    The funny thing was, it was our first run through, we'd read NO guides, were completely unprepared, didn't know it was a boss fight, decided to attack Princess first, then switch targets when one of us said "Hey guys, I think this is a boss fight!"

    My excuse? I was drinking. I ALWAYS drink when I tank. It's WHY I tank, frankly.

    Imperfect on
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Some of this is going to depend on how much you consider fear to be CC but the lock can keep someone locked down with fear. The warrior can drop a fear as can the priests. In similar groups I've used that kind of fear stuff to keep things locked down with great effectiveness.

    Thomamelas on
  • kaleeditykaleedity Sometimes science is more art than science Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    You can bring a party with stacking dps that can kill off the priest + a weaker member of the five before short duration CCs wear off.

    This is true for most of the mob trash pulls as well. A lot of the mobs don't hit very hard and/or quite squishy. I've tanked the whole heroic as a ret paladin twice, with at most 2 "hard" ccs, and I've got to say that was pretty fun. My best run tanking was as prot, though, with stacking melee dps -- enhancement shaman, ret paladin, fury warrior.

    If you have weak dps, however, the place is a pain in the ass without shitloads of cc.

    kaleedity on
  • ImperfectImperfect Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Our Warlock only really CC'd the Succubi - he didn't fear very much. We just didn't think of it until much later (the 6pull).

    Imperfect on
  • Little JimLittle Jim __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2008
    the princess in MrT can be done with no CC as long as you don't get fucked by the random spawns

    if you get both warriors, the rogue and the shaman, you are more or less boned

    Little Jim on
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  • artifexiteartifexite Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Also, I feel like I have to reinforce one point here. Bringing a warlock to the Priestess fight should count as two cc. More often than not, you have the engi/hunter that they can banish, and one of the humanoids they can fear.

    artifexite on
  • ImperfectImperfect Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    It should, it really should. But ours didn't act like it, is what I'm trying to get across. =(

    Imperfect on
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    If you get more than one hard-hitting melee class in your arena fight, you're screwed without solid CC. A warlock can keep one of the melee mobs locked up, but they all have their own little fearbreaks, so having to keep track of two leads to someone getting mauled.

    Thing is it's pretty hard to form a five man group that has no CC whatsoever. What's your composition, warrior/paladin/paladin/shaman/shaman?

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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  • dojangodojango Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    hmm, when i did heroic MgT, it was prot pally, ret pally, feral druid, ele shammy and holy priest. not much CC between occaisional HoJ and the priest fear, which is not too effective. Guess it counts as something, tho.

    dojango on
  • kaleeditykaleedity Sometimes science is more art than science Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Dyscord wrote: »
    If you get more than one hard-hitting melee class in your arena fight, you're screwed without solid CC. A warlock can keep one of the melee mobs locked up, but they all have their own little fearbreaks, so having to keep track of two leads to someone getting mauled.

    Thing is it's pretty hard to form a five man group that has no CC whatsoever. What's your composition, warrior/paladin/paladin/shaman/shaman?

    Fury/prot paladin/ret/enhancement + a resto druid.

    Locking up mobs doesn't really matter if you can kill two softies through an intimidating shout. You have to have people that both do good dps and actually use skills effectively like pummel, earth shock, and whatnot. Multiple BoPs and BoFs + piercing howl/earthbind totems/frost shocks do not hurt, either.

    kaleedity on
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Imperfect wrote: »
    what
    why
    you can do it without CC
    with enough dps

    How do you beat the Priestess with no CC?

    Ugh, I've done it.

    Prot Warrior,
    Ele Shammy,
    Feral Druid,
    Afflic Warlock,
    Holy Priest.

    The funny thing was, it was our first run through, we'd read NO guides, were completely unprepared, didn't know it was a boss fight, decided to attack Princess first, then switch targets when one of us said "Hey guys, I think this is a boss fight!"

    My excuse? I was drinking. I ALWAYS drink when I tank. It's WHY I tank, frankly.

    I can see why. 9 times outta 10, that named mob in an instance that is surrounded by other named mobs and looks bigger and different from the other mobs is rarely ever a boss.

    The Muffin Man on
  • ImperfectImperfect
    is shamed.

    Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    is shamed.

    Imperfect on
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    i tell you what thought im fuckin sick of moroes fights

    Dhalphir on
  • reVersereVerse Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I really dislike the Moroes fight too. Mostly because whenever we used to do it, I either got manaburned by the shadow priest or instagibbed by one of the melee types. And everyone else turned out just fine!

    Honestly, me dying constantly through no fault of my own was a deeply held custom in our raids.

    reVerse on
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    nah, the moroes fight itself is easy enough

    i just hate that there are SO MANY Moroes-style fights in the game

    Illidari Council, Moroes himself, Delrissa, Fathom Lord...and i think i missed one

    Dhalphir on
  • reVersereVerse Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Yeah, Moroes fight is easy. I just usually ended up dead during it. Stupid people can't handle their CC...

    reVerse on
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    nah, the moroes fight itself is easy enough

    i just hate that there are SO MANY Moroes-style fights in the game

    Illidari Council, Moroes himself, Delrissa, Fathom Lord...and i think i missed one

    Council doesn't suck because it's a Moroes style fight...it sucks because it's too fucking long. And I'm not sure I would put it in the same groupping as a Moroes fight since that's built around CC as opposed to a HKM type of fight where it's more about add control. Also FLK. And Kael.

    Thomamelas on
  • tehmarkentehmarken BrooklynRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I think Kaelthas in TK would count as an annoying moroes fight. And hexlord in ZA?

    tehmarken on
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    forgot about Malacrass

    speaking of ZA, why is it that, on paper, Zul'jin looks SO HARD but in practise he's actually really easy?

    Dhalphir on
  • rizriz Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I think add fights are fun as long as they are indeed like Maulgar or FLK, i.e., you need to switch and kill each add in turn. Council sucks because it's ten minutes straight of doing exactly the same thing, since they share health. It's so fucking dull.

    riz on
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  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    riz wrote: »
    I think add fights are fun as long as they are indeed like Maulgar or FLK, i.e., you need to switch and kill each add in turn. Council sucks because it's ten minutes straight of doing exactly the same thing, since they share health. It's so fucking dull.

    Aye, and maybe it's because I'm a tank...but serious, how do people die in that fight? Even with spell detail down as low as it goes you can still see flamestrike, conscrate and blizzard.

    Thomamelas on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    While I'm sure 'insta-gib' is blamed far more often than it happens, there are times when you'll be running from one OMG GET ME OUT OF THIS frying pan into the FIRE OF SHIT THIS HURTS OH GOD ARE THEY CHASING ME WITH THIS SHIT and then as you potion/healthstone the rogue just jumps on you and crams his venomous daggers up your ass.

    I wholeheartedly agree that deaths are far more likely due to people not running quickly enough or hesitating on using their potion/healthstone, but sometimes your survival shit is on cooldown, and if the healers don't top you off, something gets a tick off and you're suddenly taking a dirt nap (hooray, bio time while the rest of the crew finishes the fight for me!)

    That said, between Cloak of Skill, potions and healthstones, I'm usually among the last to die on a wipe.

    And due to the glory that is a slightly gentle reset mechanic, sometimes vanish even works and I survive the wipe. Ever since Molten Core, I'm more often astounded when Vanish works than when it doesn't.

    Which, in a roundabout fashion makes me wonder what the first "broken" (way too good or utterly useless) Deathknight skill will be.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Forar wrote: »
    While I'm sure 'insta-gib' is blamed far more often than it happens, there are times when you'll be running from one OMG GET ME OUT OF THIS frying pan into the FIRE OF SHIT THIS HURTS OH GOD ARE THEY CHASING ME WITH THIS SHIT and then as you potion/healthstone the rogue just jumps on you and crams his venomous daggers up your ass.

    I wholeheartedly agree that deaths are far more likely due to people not running quickly enough or hesitating on using their potion/healthstone, but sometimes your survival shit is on cooldown, and if the healers don't top you off, something gets a tick off and you're suddenly taking a dirt nap (hooray, bio time while the rest of the crew finishes the fight for me!)

    That said, between Cloak of Skill, potions and healthstones, I'm usually among the last to die on a wipe.

    And due to the glory that is a slightly gentle reset mechanic, sometimes vanish even works and I survive the wipe. Ever since Molten Core, I'm more often astounded when Vanish works than when it doesn't.

    Which, in a roundabout fashion makes me wonder what the first "broken" (way too good or utterly useless) Deathknight skill will be.

    Our rogues tend to be the last to die as well. Cloak of Shadows seems to have been a massive survivability buff in practice.

    Thomamelas on
  • Soviet WaffleSoviet Waffle Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Or a Holy Fire thing getting through. I can't survive those even with a healthstone crit D:

    Soviet Waffle on
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  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Forar wrote: »
    Which, in a roundabout fashion makes me wonder what the first "broken" (way too good or utterly useless) Deathknight skill will be.
    ...aaaand we're back.

    It's been a while since someone pointed out how stupid it is for a Tauren to be a Death Knight. Boy, that sure is silly.

    Bama on
  • rehtonAesoohCrehtonAesoohC Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    It's about a silly as a tauren riding a cockstrider...

    Or a gnome riding an Elekk...

    Or a draenei riding a horse...

    Or alliance getting shamans / horde getting paladins...

    Or lady sylvanas being a regular night elf, even with the idle bouncing animation and all.

    There's lots of stupid things in the game; taurens being death knights is item #451 on the laundry list of "Things That Don't Make Sense in WoW(tm)."

    rehtonAesoohC on
    Was wowed by Rift so I'm trying that now.
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