WCK's Drawings - The Good, the Bad and the Badass

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  • D-RobeD-Robe Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Hasn't Craig Mullins been kidnapped enough already?

    D-Robe on
    Cheese.
  • MustangMustang Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I know you probably got offended as fuck by the shit sandwich that Bacon served up there, but you should probably chow down on it to gain some perspective about where you stand as an artist. As much as I'd love to say "They'd be mad not to hire you", it simply wouldn't be the truth.

    This dude is a local Adelaide boy, he's fresh from a UniSA visual arts course. This is the dude that you and I are competing against from a local sense. If we're not arting at this level (and I know I'm not), then a money earning job is quite simply out of the question.

    I know you're probably getting pressure from your folks to get a job and get the fuck out of the house now that your uni course is finished. I'd suggest trying to get a graphic design job (afterall that's what you studied mainly), or whatever doesn't make you throw up every morning, and beef up your skills with self-paced learning and life drawing classes. Once you're skills are muscular move into illustration or whatever you wish. You can absolutely do this, I have complete faith that with enough hard work anybody can do anything, it's just a degree of how badly you want it. Just stick at it dude, you're not there yet, but with some concerted effort you can be.

    Mustang on
  • beavotronbeavotron Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Mustang wrote: »
    I know you probably got offended as fuck by the shit sandwich that Bacon served up there...

    if he's been offended by that, he's in the wrong industry.

    beavotron on
  • MustangMustang Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Actually one thing I will say though; you have a habit of agreeing with peoples criticisms and then doing nothing to correct those faults. It's not good enough to simply say, "yes, my hands and feet suck", you have to start filling up pages of hand and feet sketches until you understand why they suck, what you have been doing wrong and how you are going to correct them in the future. If that does sound like too much of a hassle, then I would agree with Beavs in saying this is the wrong industry for you. I hope that's not the case though.

    Mustang on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Mustang wrote: »
    This dude is a local Adelaide boy, he's fresh from a UniSA visual arts course. This is the dude that you and I are competing against from a local sense. If we're not arting at this level (and I know I'm not), then a money earning job is quite simply out of the question.

    Checked out the dudes work. Thats the same course i'm finishing up. Visual Communications (Illustrations focussed). His rendering is pretty damn good.
    Mustang wrote: »
    I know you're probably getting pressure from your folks to get a job and get the fuck out of the house now that your uni course is finished. I'd suggest trying to get a graphic design job (afterall that's what you studied mainly), or whatever doesn't make you throw up every morning, and beef up your skills with self-paced learning and life drawing classes. Once you're skills are muscular move into illustration or whatever you wish.

    haha. I'm not really under any pressure from the folks. Graphic design might be an ok direction to go, but that takes skill and i havnt really touched much of InDesign sinse early last year. Might brush up on that shit over the summer.

    Ive really been considering going to Tafe and doing the game art course. That way i can practice my drawing/concept art and learn 3d modelling skills. if i can draw and have a decent knowledge in 3d, it might make me a little bit more valuable to a few of the smaller companies in Adelaide. *fingers crossed*

    winter_combat_knight on
  • LeggraphicsLeggraphics Registered User
    edited August 2009
    WCK. I have to say some things on here havnt been overly constructive nor kind but most are correct. I'm in the same boat as you... I only recently took up drawing and im trying my hardest to Improve every day. I have jobs that pay the bills in multimedia but I really want to make a living off my drawing. I just know that wont happen for a while. Even longer if I dont find much time to work.

    I keep busy drawing and getting feedback which helps allot. I've still not found time to go to an actual art school which I know I need to (because my reading is bad... dyslexia) but i keep at it. I did some cold calling two weeks ago towards graphic design firms selling them on the idea that I am a fresh face. Skilled in Web design, illustration and what-have you and I think I might be able to help your company expand its folio.

    It worked... I have two job interviews next week. I rang about 10 places and got 2 good responces. Thats the sort of stuff you need to do.

    I think the key is stay focused. Sell yourself. Dont think of yourself as a student unless you dont want a job yet. Try to be realistic but if you think you are a illustrator then you ARE an illustrator... your just looking for work.

    Adelaide is a shit hole for work in concept art. Most film studios in Adelaide dont use them... I know because I have worked in some and have contacts in others, just not in the art area but filming side.

    Keep at it. Be persistent and do the ring around and sell yourself.

    One bit of knowledge I will give you from a family friend of mine Mario from Adelaide Motion Film Company (directed pauly and napoleon those kids talking animal movies). He spent some time giving me some advice and he said but what area do you want to work in? I said I dont know.. I have training and experience in film, editing and some after effects. He said.. you need to specialise in one area. Its good to know all areas of the film industry and how they interact. It makes handing roles easier but you really do need to specialise. Pick an area and become the best at it.'

    bah.. anyway im talking crap. You and I joined this forum at the same time and I think we have both improved allot but have a way to go. We will get there im sure. Good luck mate

    Leggraphics on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Cheers for the encouragement Leggs. I agree with you about having to sell yourself and consider yourself a professional rather than a student. Im trying to come up with various ways of promoting myself. one idea is to make up some postcards, with some of my illustrations on the front, and contact details/web links on the back and directly mailing them to people in charge or recruitment. Anyhting to get their attention.
    Good luck with the interviews BTW!

    winter_combat_knight on
  • NotASenatorNotASenator Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I'm not a good artist and I don't have much advice on that side of things, but the advice that Bacon gave mirrors the same sort of stuff I went through with programming, and it rings true.

    I managed to do enough work to get an "in" with an established game developer who I did some work for, and they were just impressed enough to give me some good recommendations, which turned into interviews for entry level positions with some very high-end studios. Going into the interviews, some of them with heroes of mine, I found out that I was in no way ready for working in a production environment at that level.

    But the benefit of it was that these developers were willing to tell me what I needed to work on and where I needed to put my focus. They tore me down (admittedly in a very kind way) by reinforcing the fact that I just didn't have the chops to be working at that level, and then told me what precisely I needed to be working on.

    There are few things as helpful in professional development as getting feedback from experienced pros in the field, because they have the weight of their own successes and failures to back up whatever they are telling you.

    NotASenator on
  • bombardierbombardier Moderator mod
    edited August 2009
    Way to completely gloss over and not even comment on Bacon's post. Big surprise.

    bombardier on
  • mullymully Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I've learned something from being friends with a lot of very-high-ups in the video game industry -- it has a lot to do with WHO you know. And the people in the industry here, trying to help you? When asked about what you're like, if they should hire you? They're going to say, "No -- he doesn't listen to criticism or try to improve, he ignores it completely."

    I can give you an example, too - - a true one. A friend of mine is extremely well known in the industry and her opinions are very highly regarded. This one "artist" she knew was simply the most arrogant person in the universe - wouldn't take criticism, didn't feel she NEEDED to improve. Wouldn't you know it, that person was applying for video game jobs -- and the H.R. people at those companies had actually gone to the well-known person to ask if they had any opinion on this applicant. Well, of course the industry-person said "yes, i know her, and no, you shouldn't hire her." -- and that's that.

    She has been unable to get a job anywhere aside from small contract work; she works in a clothes store now. Retail stuff.

    Everyone knows someone and I guarantee you that no matter where you go, they're going to know at least one person in the AC. And every person in the AC sees you blowing off what is extremely useful and valuable information and criticism.

    So yeah. That's not good. "Shape up or ship out", as they say.

    mully on
  • beavotronbeavotron Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    mully wrote: »
    I've learned something from being friends with a lot of very-high-ups in the video game industry -- it has a lot to do with WHO you know. And the people in the industry here, trying to help you? When asked about what you're like, if they should hire you? They're going to say, "No -- he doesn't listen to criticism or try to improve, he ignores it completely."

    I can give you an example, too - - a true one. A friend of mine is extremely well known in the industry and her opinions are very highly regarded. This one "artist" she knew was simply the most arrogant person in the universe - wouldn't take criticism, didn't feel she NEEDED to improve. Wouldn't you know it, that person was applying for video game jobs -- and the H.R. people at those companies had actually gone to the well-known person to ask if they had any opinion on this applicant. Well, of course the industry-person said "yes, i know her, and no, you shouldn't hire her." -- and that's that.

    She has been unable to get a job anywhere aside from small contract work; she works in a clothes store now. Retail stuff.

    Everyone knows someone and I guarantee you that no matter where you go, they're going to know at least one person in the AC. And every person in the AC sees you blowing off what is extremely useful and valuable information and criticism.

    So yeah. That's not good. "Shape up or ship out", as they say.

    agreeing with all of this.

    beavotron on
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    There were frankly better ways of putting what has been written, and although I agree with some of it most of you are going about it totally the wrong way. Yes, he needs frankness; but that is not the same as rudeness. Insulting somebody never results in anything but them being defensive. Bacon, if you'd removed that first line from your post it would have been 5000 times better. There are better ways to tell somebody their expectations are unrealistic than calling them "fucking delusional".

    All of you chaps would be a lot more persuasive if you were more polite.

    Remember, politeness is a convention to get people to listen what you have to say. There is no better way to be ignored than to be offensive.

    surrealitycheck on
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  • bombardierbombardier Moderator mod
    edited August 2009
    There were frankly better ways of putting what has been written, and although I agree with some of it most of you are going about it totally the wrong way. Yes, he needs frankness; but that is not the same as rudeness. Insulting somebody never results in anything but them being defensive. Bacon, if you'd removed that first line from your post it would have been 5000 times better. There are better ways to tell somebody their expectations are unrealistic than calling them "fucking delusional".

    All of you chaps would be a lot more persuasive if you were more polite.

    Remember, politeness is a convention to get people to listen what you have to say. There is no better way to be ignored than to be offensive.

    I think you missed the initial politeness that he also ignored.

    bombardier on
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I think you missed the initial politeness that he also ignored.

    Not trying to be an ass here, but which posts are you referring to? Before AoB's post there was one post saying he's not ready that he acknowledged and agreed with.

    Edit: Bowing out here, I have no desire to shit up the thread. However, let's have some hugs and love!

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
  • PetalmunkPetalmunk Registered User
    edited August 2009
    The messages that have been suggested to you in here WCK are invaluable.
    You said that you want to validate the time you spent in school by producing something tangible at the end. I can understand that. But, if what you're submitting for applications is not industry standard (as you put it), then the companies receiving it are more apt to think of you as someone wasting their time, than someone to watch for improvements.
    Bacon nailed it when he said you would gain a lot from contacting prospective employers on a more personal level (rather than professional application) for career information and suggestions. This is a great idea for several reasons; it shows you're interested in their professional opinion (hold them in a higher regard), gives you a contact within the company/industry (improves your professional networking), and opens the possibility for invaluable direct feedback (if the opportunity were to arise for submission of a sample of your work).
    For feedback to be any good to you though, you need to acknowledge it, good or bad. If feedback is negative, either in critique or presentation by the critic, ask for clarification on it if you're confused or insulted. You can grow from that point.
    Always welcome hash criticism, because it will get you so much further than gentle asspats.

    Just my two pennies...
    and one more cent for the road... I've watched your drawings progress, and though your faces have been improving, your clothing work is in dire need of some practice. Its easy to brush it off and say you can study it later, but it does really detract from your work when you just squiggle a shirt sleeve with no purposeful folds or gravity to it.

    Petalmunk on
  • McGibsMcGibs TorontoRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I think you missed the initial politeness that he also ignored.

    Not trying to be an ass here, but which posts are you referring to? Before AoB's post there was one post saying he's not ready that he acknowledged and agreed with.

    Edit: Bowing out here, I have no desire to shit up the thread. However, let's have some hugs and love!

    "Initial" being several months worth of criticism. This thread is pretty long, as is the doodle thread.

    McGibs on
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  • bombardierbombardier Moderator mod
    edited August 2009
    I think you missed the initial politeness that he also ignored.

    Not trying to be an ass here, but which posts are you referring to? Before AoB's post there was one post saying he's not ready that he acknowledged and agreed with.

    Edit: Bowing out here, I have no desire to shit up the thread. However, let's have some hugs and love!

    I don't have time to give you specific links, and I can't really put myself through looking through this thread again, but it is more of months of ignoring and disregarding very good and important advise along with an attitude of plugging his ears and singing out loud believing that success will just fall in his lap.

    bombardier on
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    "Initial" being several months worth of criticism. This thread is pretty long, as is the doodle thread.

    Ah. If he's been a serial ignorer then I understand; I haven't been reading this thread for that long.

    This just touches on a more general phenomenon that I have noticed on the internet: people confuse helpful and informative negative criticism (ie criticism that points out things that are bad about somebody's work that they don't necessarily want to admit) with harsh criticism, and consequently this is transmuted into the idea that "Good criticism is fundamentally rude/offensive". No, no and a thousand times no.

    The best criticism is criticism you don't want to hear; but it is presented in a fashion that allows you to accept it. The best criticism makes you think carefully about what it is saying, rather than react defensively. Very few people have the self-control to read something flat-out offensive about them without a whole gamut of self-defense mechanisms kicking in. Well-constructed, polite, but nonetheless accurate criticism is the ideal.

    True, some people do find any criticism of work they have produced inherently offends them. And those people are doomed to failure until they can overcome it. But I genuinely think they are few and far between (except in arguments ;) ).

    It is rare that a conversation benefits from rudeness.

    Edit: If so bombadier, my mistake.

    surrealitycheck on
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  • mullymully Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I dont think being blunt is necessarily the same as being rude.
    No one is sugar coating anything. If they say he is being delusional, it is because it is a truth. It's not rude. I guess I would've left out the swearing but that person chose to use it for emphasis.

    I think it's rude to ignore people who are so very obviously trying to help him get exactly what he wants from life.

    mully on
  • Guy BellGuy Bell Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    This is what Doug Chiang, an incredible concept artist and Vice President of ImageMovers Digital (Walt Disney), says that he looks for in a portfolio:

    24 pieces
    second best piece in front
    next is weakest piece
    progressively move towards strongest
    End with best piece
    Keep all pieces oriented the same way so reviewer doesn't have to turn your portfolio
    Target your portfolio for job

    from "Mechanika" by Doug Chiang

    Guy Bell on
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I dont think being blunt is necessarily the same as being rude.
    No one is sugar coating anything. If they say he is being delusional, it is because it is a truth. It's not rude. I guess I would've left out the swearing but that person chose to use it for emphasis.

    I think it's rude to ignore people who are so very obviously trying to help him get exactly what he wants from life.

    Drifting strictly into the realm of the hypothetical here, yes, that is the case. There are some things that are blunt that are not rude; however, the set of blunt things contains an awful lot of the set of rude things. But, consider the following; the ultimate victory in this case is not to have dished out the truthiness on some poor sap and consider the job done - it's to convince the aforementioned sap that what you have suggested is valuable. Note that I only complained about the first line of Bacon's post; in general, the rest is fairly informative without really straying into the territory of that which might produce offense.

    And while he may have been rude in the past, as one's mother (correctly and annoyingly) observed - two wrongs don't make a right!

    surrealitycheck on
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  • beavotronbeavotron Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I dont think being blunt is necessarily the same as being rude.
    No one is sugar coating anything. If they say he is being delusional, it is because it is a truth. It's not rude. I guess I would've left out the swearing but that person chose to use it for emphasis.

    I think it's rude to ignore people who are so very obviously trying to help him get exactly what he wants from life.

    Drifting strictly into the realm of the hypothetical here, yes, that is the case. There are some things that are blunt that are not rude; however, the set of blunt things contains an awful lot of the set of rude things. But, consider the following; the ultimate victory in this case is not to have dished out the truthiness on some poor sap and consider the job done - it's to convince the aforementioned sap that what you have suggested is valuable. Note that I only complained about the first line of Bacon's post; in general, the rest is fairly informative without really straying into the territory of that which might produce offense.

    And while he may have been rude in the past, as one's mother (correctly and annoyingly) observed - two wrongs don't make a right!

    this is all well and good and is typically adhered to around here
    until you try critting someone in a polite and informative manner and they not only disregard you, but continue posting the same old mistakes for MONTHS without even voicing a "hey thanks bacon for taking like an hour of your time to try to teach me something"

    what seems to you as people being rude is our last ditch attempt to push this guy in the right direction.
    also, crits that you deem "rude" while not so helpful in other professions, are not all that bad in art, because the fact is, not all art directors necessarily know how to deal with people
    i've had some pretty downright nasty responses to things that have been hurtful, but I was able to take in stride because I was given harsh criticism in the past on the internet. It's about separating yourself from the crits. They're not jabs at you (until it gets to this point, and the guy's being downright arrogant and pigheaded about the whole thing) they're jabs at your work. your work is not you. You have to learn to separate the two if you want to make this your career or else, putting it bluntly, you are doomed to a short career full of misery.

    beavotron on
  • MustangMustang Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Guy Bell wrote: »
    This is what Doug Chiang, an incredible concept artist and Vice President of ImageMovers Digital (Walt Disney), says that he looks for in a portfolio:

    24 pieces
    second best piece in front
    next is weakest piece
    progressively move towards strongest
    End with best piece
    Keep all pieces oriented the same way so reviewer doesn't have to turn your portfolio
    Target your portfolio for job

    from "Mechanika" by Doug Chiang

    Hey guy, I've been close to buying Mechanika a couple of times online, how would you rate it overall?

    Mustang on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Some of you forumers have the wrong idea about me. Perhaps i shouldn't have mentioned at all that i'm sending out a portfolio. Though i thought i already justified why im sending it out.

    I dont know if this is the case, but im assuming that some of you professional artists have had it tough trying to get your foot in the industry.
    By any chance, am I frustrating some of you by treating my work as a professional portfolio? I ask because i personally know several professionals working in the industry (games and illustration) who have said that that the industry over populated with young so called ‘artists’ who have absolutely no idea about the funamentals of drawing and colour, hide their shitty fundamental skills behind the textured brushes and layer filters tricks of photoshop. They come out of school/tafe/uni and are taking jobs which should go to much better, experienced artists. Do I fall into this category. I hope not. But I can see how I do. Perhaps my lack of fundamental skills, and use of cheap digital tricks are an insult to your, high standard illustration work, which has taken years of hard work and practice? I don’t know if that’s the case, but I’m interested to hear what you guys think of that?

    BTW, by sending out a portfolio, i'm not talking about Valve, Take 2, Konami etc. thinking i'll be working on Half Life 3, Bioshock 2 or something (i wish :)). I'm talking about small, relatively unknown studios in the little country town of Adelaide. Does anyone outside Australia even know where Adelaide is? lol ;)

    *tried to word this without sounding like an prick. So please don't take it that way*

    Oh well, back to homework. 8 weeks argh. Then im an unemployed bum!

    winter_combat_knight on
  • Guy BellGuy Bell Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Well worth the price. Obviously it is limited to just Chiang's style but he literally walks you thru his entire design process. He tells you what tools to buy and then takes you thru every stage ending in digital. What I liked is that he gets into the whole thought process in creating great concept art. I found it at Borders so you can flip thru it before you buy. (After ripping the annoying plastic off it and hiding it in the magazine rack)

    Guy Bell on
  • MustangMustang Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    @WCK: Wow, that was probably the worst way you could've interperated what everyone has said. I had hoped you would see the purpose behind what everyone has been trying to tell you but unfortunately you've chosen to read it as professional arrogance. Just because we're a small unknown city, isn't an excuse for shitty fundamentals, in fact I'm sick to death of that attitude in this city. Accepting mediocrity because of where you live will get you no-where, because there are people who live here who don't. If you don't want to be the best at what you are doing, then you don't care enough about it.

    @Guy: Thanks dude, definately sounds worth picking up.

    Mustang on
  • Guy BellGuy Bell Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Winter, I am not in the Industry so I can only state the opinions of some of my friends who make their living in Art fields. You, and I mean you in a general sense, are fresh out of school and you need some tear sheets in your portfolio. You will be willing to work for next to nothing or even for free so you can polish your portfolio to get better work. A lot of companies exploit this. At least that's the way some of my friends feel about it. They don't blame the Artist starting out.
    A parallel to the PS thing is what happened to sign painting decades ago. Lettering took years of practice to become really good. Then...letraset letters and vinyl.

    Guy Bell on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Sorry Mustang, i didnt mean to suggest that me applying in Adelaide allows my portfolio to be weak. Im aware that adelaide has many professional studios (Rising Sun and PRA are just two). Writing through text is difficult because im a poor writer. I dont always accuratley transplate my throughts/words into type (especially sarcasm/jokes).

    winter_combat_knight on
  • beavotronbeavotron Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    to put it bluntly, yes you are currently one of those artists who is completely lacking in fundamentals that your industry friends talk about
    a young artist who seemingly knows a bit about photoshop but has a lot to learn
    we've been trying to say this for months now, it just seems to not be sinking in at all.

    i worked in a tiny TINY company my first job that no one had ever heard of
    They still checked my portfolio though and looked for certain things.

    beavotron on
  • MustangMustang Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    To be honest man, I wouldn't post anything else here until you can put the time aside to do proper figure studies or anything that shows you are genuinely trying to get better. Make sure they are reffed, using the techniques like what's described in cakemikz's video. Throwing up the same stuff with the same mistakes is only going to get you the same critiques, it's a pointless excercise.

    I want you to realise what a golden position you are right now, you are young and without any major responsibilities. You have so much time to develop into a really good artist, forget all the shit about degrees and all that crap because it doesn't mean dick, it means absolutely fuck all to anyone with any clout. What matters right now is how you devleop yourself and what you are producing. I want you to care that your hands and feet aren't up to scratch, I want that shit to wake you up in the morning, because Mr. Crappy Feet and Hands is not who you want to be, you want to be Mr. Epic Feet and Hands.

    I came to late to this, I was told for years that I wasn't smart enough, good enough, dedicated enough and I was stupid enough to let it get to me. It's only now that a realise that had I put the effort in when I was 20 and disregarded everyone who didn't have faith in me that I could be loving what I do for a living right now. I could be kicking the art worlds ass, or at the very least not being teabagged by the art world like I am now. Instead I'm stuck in a job I hate and have no desire to get better at. I don't want this to be you, I want you to love what you are doing for a job, but you have to put the effort in. In short, don't fuck this up by being lazy, because I guarentee you will regret it.
    Do what needs to be done.

    Mustang on
  • beavotronbeavotron Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    yeah that's kind of a nice, motivational way to put it haha

    beavotron on
  • MustangMustang Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Should I have mentioned the nine steps?
    Damnit, I knew I should've mentioned the nine steps.
    littlemisssunshine2.jpg

    Mustang on
  • Angel_of_BaconAngel_of_Bacon Moderator mod
    edited September 2009
    Spoilered for the TL;DR crowd.
    I'm not frustrated about you treating your work like a professional portfolio.

    The frustration is that of a person on a cell phone on the line with a guy in a car, and watching the guy in a car about to speed off a cliff, and having his protests rebuffed because the guy was sold a piece of paper that was told could make his car fly (art degree metaphor), and it's a much faster way to get the bottom than that long twisty 20 mph speed limit road that winds down the cliffside (fundamental training path metaphor).

    The frustration isn't in failing to rob you of the glory of being the first man on earth to have a flying car. The frustration is in being helpless to stop a man from cratering himself into the ground at 250 mph, no matter how much we may scream.

    That cliff is apparently 2 months away, by your current plans.

    Being I am, despite what some may think, not an asshole who goes around wishing ill on people for kicks- (otherwise I certainly wouldn't bother doing paintovers or doing crits trying to help people, would I?)- I would love for it to turn out that the car can fly or the cliff isn't as steep as it looks and the ground is made of a mattress-like substance- in other words, I'd love to be proven wrong. And I'd love it even more if you went, "I'll make you eat your fucking words!" and went out and became a Craig Mullins or a Feng Zhu or a Justin Sweet, and did whatever it took to really fucking kick ass at concept art.

    But if I am frank, I do not think I will be proven wrong any time soon, until you dedicate an explicit and unwavering focus towards bringing your fundamental skills up to snuff. Otherwise, it's the cliff. And that's going to suck when that crash happens, and it's going to suck to watch- and believe it or not, I'm not going to like it one bit, nor take any pleasure in having the opportunity to say, "I told you so."



    But to answer your question, and I'm not going to mince words here- you are the caliber of the artists your more experienced people are complaining about, with their lack of fundamentals- why do you think everyone's been railing on about it for the last year?

    And how do you think the industry being full of equally undertrained people helps you? If the industry has hiring undertrained people, guess what? They don't need someone equally as undertrained, but has the additional handicap of having no prior work experience and no references- they have that caliber of artist on hand already and in bulk. It only helps you if you're better than they are by an obvious margin.

    To paraphrase Mr. Gist, you don't want to look at the average piece of the worst working artist you can find and get your portfolio to that standard- if they want that kind of work, they already have got that guy. What you want to do is get your portfolio that when you look at an average artist's portfolio- not your greats, but your average-level, workaday concept Joe- and have your worst piece is as good as their best. Then you'll get hired because there is an actual incentive to hire you over someone else already established. Any less and any company in their right mind is going to take the known quantity over the unknown one.

    Are you there yet? Take a look around the internet for your competition, stand your work by everyone else's- the big names, the lesser-knowns, the deservedly obscure- and you tell me where you think you stand. Your competition isn't the average dude here in the forum, or the people in your class. It's not your teacher, it's not your best friend, it's not some guy you know down the block. They're the people actually out there working the jobs you want to be doing right this very moment.

    EDIT for additional pretentiousness:
    If ignorant both of your enemy and yourself, you are certain to be in peril.
    If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles.
    -Sun Tzu, The Art of War



    And again, and I want to make this as plain as possible- I am not saying any of this just to be a dick. That's what mocking Tam in the chat thread is for.

    This is an effort to get you to realign your expectations to a point where they are helping you, rather than holding you back from taking the actions that will bring about the results you want to get. I want you to succeed.

    That's why I go around doing paintovers and crits and explaining things, because I do believe it is possible for you to get a job doing concept art someday, if you take the necessary actions to get that fundamental training. And to your credit, you have acted on some of the stuff I've pointed out, and that's a good start- but I (nor any one else here, singly or as a group) can not singlehandedly train you to a professional level with a handful of paintovers- the onus is on you to go where you can get trained properly, and take that responsibility seriously. And 2 months in a university that apparently gives little, if any, thought to basic fundamental drawing skills isn't going to do the trick either. I know because I've got an art degree from a mostly shit art school, and a bunch of people I know do too, or attended such a school previously- mostly people attending ateliers to try to make up for lost time, myself included in that. We're not doing it just to dick around, we're doing it because it's how we're going to get what we need.



    Hard words for a hard world, unfortunately. The only hope is to take action with that harsh reality in mind; keep dreaming and all it will ever be is a dream.

    Angel_of_Bacon on
  • GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    WCK, this is the very first time I have looked in this thread in ages (may be the first time, I dunno), but it pains me to see you making the very same mistakes that I did a couple of years ago here in the AC. Down to a science in fact.


    You really don't want to go down that path. It is a rather painful and unforgiving one.


    Your best option would be to sit back and harvest all of this info, step aside for a few weeks/months and then come back with some fresh material.

    Godfather on
  • NotASenatorNotASenator Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Hey, I know a guy named Feng Zhu.

    NotASenator on
  • D-RobeD-Robe Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    NotACrook wrote: »
    Hey, I know a guy named Feng Zhu.

    Wait, wait, wait- Do you know the Feng Zhu or a Feng Zhu? The former would be awesome and I'm pretty sure everyone is the latter.

    D-Robe on
    Cheese.
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    So after thinking about it further, re-reading over the last couple of pages i've decided not to apply for work at this moment. I might try what Bacon suggested in an earlier post.
    . Before you go and apply to a bunch of jobs and then wonder if the ringer on your phone is broken judging by the silence, try emailing some art directors of companies with some stuff from your portfolio, and be like:
    "Hey ___________, I am __________ and I am looking to become a concept artist in the future. Can you look over my portfolio and tell me what steps I need to take from here in order to be considered at a professional level? Thanks, __________".
    And then, when they get back to you- actually do what they're telling you, because you're not going to get a source of information any more firsthand than that.

    Either that or perhaps i might even call up/send requests to some companies asking if they can offer me some work expierience. I dont know, i'll have to give it some more thought. I'm still pretty set on Tafe next year.

    winter_combat_knight on
  • NotASenatorNotASenator Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    D-Robe wrote: »
    NotACrook wrote: »
    Hey, I know a guy named Feng Zhu.

    Wait, wait, wait- Do you know the Feng Zhu or a Feng Zhu? The former would be awesome and I'm pretty sure everyone is the latter.

    I only know him tangentally, but apparently it's the same guy.

    NotASenator on
  • beavotronbeavotron Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    i am seconding everything bacon has said

    sometimes people think that i come across as mean or rude. I'm not TRYING to be mean or rude and I don't want people to fail. We're a community of artists here who have decided to help each other grow. I've gotten a lot of help here, continue to grow and get help here and I honestly believe that I wouldn't be where I am today if it wasn't for the AC. I owe this place, and the people who post here something, so I try hard to give it back.
    Usually met with some resistance of course, but it's natural, I expect it to a point, because it's a stage that I myself was in at one point in my art career too, so hey... happens.

    I will also say, you'll be hard pressed to find a community as good as this one that's so helpful to people in the earlier stages. CA.org is all well and good, if you're already somewhat established. A lot of younger work gets skipped right over due to sheer amount of people posting in the sketchbook threads.
    I've tried other forums too and find that the crits aren't as good, people tend to be a bit too soft and not really helpful, or the communities are so tight knit and elitist, they won't even glance at a new person's work.

    So use what you have here is what I'm trying to say, it's rarer than you think to have this sort of networking. Sure not everyone here is an industry pro, but people have their connections.
    How do you think my valentines found their way all around the internet? I only posted them here, no where else until after they hit other places. It's a stronger networking tool than people give it credit for.

    Which brings me to my final point on this matter. Don't feel that this is a setback. You deciding to not send out portfolios is one of the most forward thinking things I've seen you do. You're starting to plan for your future instead of just...as bacon put it...attempting to drive off a cliff headfirst into it.
    As you grow and build yourself as a better artist here, taking the crits and feedback for what it is, you will also be networking with other artists in your industry and building a name for yourself.

    I really don't want you to feel dejected about not jumping right into your career. I think it's important that you feel confident that this is the right move, and not just that you're being bullied into it. There is potential in you, I wouldn't have wasted my time berating you senseless if there wasn't some potential.

    beavotron on
  • rtsrts Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    And here is my extremely unhelpful comment after doing a bunch of googling. Australia seems like a really shit place for art.

    rts on
    skype: rtschutter
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