WCK's Drawings - The Good, the Bad and the Badass

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  • KendeathwalkerKendeathwalker Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    So after thinking about it further, re-reading over the last couple of pages i've decided not to apply for work at this moment. I might try what Bacon suggested in an earlier post.
    . Before you go and apply to a bunch of jobs and then wonder if the ringer on your phone is broken judging by the silence, try emailing some art directors of companies with some stuff from your portfolio, and be like:
    "Hey ___________, I am __________ and I am looking to become a concept artist in the future. Can you look over my portfolio and tell me what steps I need to take from here in order to be considered at a professional level? Thanks, __________".
    And then, when they get back to you- actually do what they're telling you, because you're not going to get a source of information any more firsthand than that.

    Either that or perhaps i might even call up/send requests to some companies asking if they can offer me some work expierience. I dont know, i'll have to give it some more thought. I'm still pretty set on Tafe next year.


    I am an asshole when it comes to these situations as I had my own little art cherry broken in a very violent humilating way and after I recovered I started getting better at a much much faster pace. Im not doing this just to rape your ego. You seem to really want to get better and make your living doing this. So Im just paying it forward.


    I dont quite get why you arent listenting to bacon. Maybe you will listen to me. As my situation is almost identical to his. I went to a four year uni and wasnt satisfied. I got better training that you and from what Ive seen here I worked a hell of a lot harder than you and produced more. I was still terrible after graduation.


    I am going to put it very bluntly as you seem to have some difficulty processing large amounts of text.

    You- Do- Not- Draw- Well- At - All.

    At all.

    Everything else you do looks bad because you do not draw well.


    Everything you do no matter how much polish you put on it is going to look like an amateur turd until you get better at drawing.

    All the other stuff youve learned and practied. Great it will all look better after you

    Learn
    How
    To
    Draw.





    Stop fucking with anything else and learn how to draw.

    I wasted two years after school until I finally realized hey I should really go somewhere that teaches drawing because Im just not getting it on my own and I cant find the motivation to buckle down on books annd what I used to consider tedious practice..
    ( Its propably good to point out that I am getting freelance work. on a somewhat regular basis and still made that decision)

    After you are given a foundation you can learn from books. Right now Id guess all you do is look at the pictures and say cool.. because you really dont know what the fuck he/shes talking about. I know this because until very recently I did the same thing.


    This is a pretty good illustration of how quickly you can get better at drawing if you commit.

    heres a link to the chaps thread.

    Pay attention to his improvement between 2007 and 2008. Its fucking scary.

    http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114449&page=71


    And heres a rather intersting rant the guy wrote after he got tired of of people bugging him about what the secret is whats his magic schedule.

    Youd do very well to take his advice about writing down your goals so you are constantly reminded of them.
    Okay guys, here's somewhat of a rant on a few things that have been bugging me lately. I'll update later this day but I need to get this out of my head now so I can concentrate again.


    Fist of all I need to say I don't really feel like I'm in any position to give advice, as my skills are far from where they should be, but if I can help anyone with this, it's worth the effort.



    One thing that annoys me to no end is how much people seem to concentrate on the wrong things. The reason why I won't show my schedule is that it's nothing more than a piece of paper with stuff written on it. It only takes on meaning in connection with the guy who created it, which would be me. How would my schedule be of use to anyone else? It's really, REALLY important that you stop thinking in this "If I only had" and "What's his secret" mindset. It makes you dependent and weak and will prevent you from growing. THERE ARE NO SECRETS. I don't say this because I don't want to share my stuff, I say it because it's really, really important to grow a spine and learn to ANALYZE YOUR OWN WORK, look for weaknesses, and find ways to tackle them. Don't take anything for granted! If someone else gives you advice, it's a bonus, but you can NEVER depend on it.That's the most important thing my drum teacher taught me, back when I was a young, arrogant kid and sucked at drumming. He crushed my ego completely by showing me all the things I couldn't do, and, more importantly, how to FIND them. You NEED to learn this if you want to improve - look at your own stuff! To me, working completely from imagination is the best way to do this. I draw a figure, and if I had problems with the shoulders, well, then I'd better go back to studying those! And if I will ever be able to draw a flawless figure, then I know sure as hell that I will rot if I stay in my comfort zone any longer. Get the fuck out of there! Do stuff that you can't do! I feel this is essential - do never look at the things you have already achieved! It will make you fat and lazy. Strive for more, reach for the impossible. This is the only way to prevent stagnation. BELIEVE IN YOURSELF! Look at Jason Manley's story, check out MindCandyMan's thread - people can do anything! You just have to WANT it and WORK TOWARDS IT.

    Back to the schedule, a piece of paper does NOT help you to get up early, it does not help you to stop slacking. What it does is REMIND you. The greatest danger for drive is, in fact, life. There's always so much stuff happening around you that it's terribly easy to lose sight of your goals. So write them down! This is where motivation and drive come from, at least for me - constantly asking yourself "Am I there yet? No? Well, then I'd better bust out a few more drawings, so I can look myself in the face!" You NEED to have this stuff right in your face, or it will get lost. But as soon as you are able to always think of where you want to be, you'll have the best reason to get up early, to not watch TV, to still draw when everyone else is already asleep.

    I touched this above, but let me say it again for emphasis, what I feel is extremely important is becoming INDEPENDENT. This does not mean never talking to anyone else, or that you shouldn't ask for advice if you can't figure out something on your own, or if you're stuck somewhere, I do it too. But it means trying to come up with solutions to your own problems.
    This applies to what I said above - if you notice you can't draw hands, then draw hands! But it also applies to questions like "Where do you get your reference?" Well, where would I get reference? Doesn't it, first of all, depend on what you want to do? If you need to study hands, then why not study your own? Get yourself a mirror and start drawing! If you're looking for specific poses, then why not think about it for a second? Are there sports that have these movements? Yes? Well, then go to google and type something like "handball galleries", or go to flickr and search for "flying kick", and you'll find more stuff than you'll ever be able to study in your whole life! It just depends on what YOU need. There's no such thing as the ultimate source, or the ultimate brush, or the ultimate sketchbook paper (Jesus, why does everyone ask DanielC what paper he uses? =D I remember asking him too a while back, he missed my face just by a few inches!) This is really really important - ANALYZE the problem, and then come up with a specific solution.

    And this is exactly how your schedule should work. And if that is still not enough, then aim higher! Set more goals, like, update daily, do a character every day, reach this artist's level by that date, and so on. This requires a bit of thinking of where you REALLY want to be. Keep your eyes on the horizon!!

    And a last thing that you can't stress enough - listen to Bobby Chiu's podcasts. It's the best. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJowNFmuul8



    Later!



    You shouldnt even bother sending out the promos. You are going into an industry that actually needs people that draw well. IF you were going for freelance editorial illustration id say go for it as anybody with a decent gimmick can get work. Thats The reason I am getting work.


    I know alot of this is redundant information but I felt the need because your reaction annoyed me. You are getting great advice and your reaction should basically be "yes boss, thank you id like another plate of shit to eat" and it isnt.

    Kendeathwalker on
  • LeggraphicsLeggraphics Registered User
    edited September 2009
    Kendal. That Bobby Chiu video is very inspiring. I watched some of the massive black videos recently and found the skill good but the audio talking just crap.. You dont end up learning to much.

    Bobby goes through allot of life issues there lol... so much to think about.

    Also- agreed that the dude of concept art has progressed allot in a year. Nice speech there.

    WCK- I think the thing to think about is. Find something that your good at that you can sell yourself on and work on the things you really want to do. As mentioned I'm selling myself as a web designer/ graphic designer as I know I can do that and its also the bottom rung of the ladder I want to climb to become an artist.

    Just look at the progress we both have made since joining this forum not that long ago. I think you are learning fast enough. I know I feel I want to learn faster and it makes me think about taking shortcuts but people here attempt to slow you down. Sometimes its hard. At times I have been like. WTF are they talking about... they are slowing me down but that is really what I need. Im jumping ahead way to fast and skipping necessary planning.

    One common quote all these massive black and bobby say is 'if the sketch is wrong it doesn't matter how much rendering and fancy shit you put ontop you will still need to go back and adjust that original drawing'.

    One other thing dude. Allot of these artists are talking about doing collaborative drawings.... Do you want to give one a go with me? Id like to see what we both could achieve combining our skills for a drawing. my msn is [email protected]

    Leggraphics on
  • MustangMustang Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Bobby Chiu is one of my heroes, just got his latest book through signed by him and Kei. Going to try to scrape some money together to do one of his online courses next year.
    I say it because it's really, really important to grow a spine and learn to ANALYZE YOUR OWN WORK, look for weaknesses, and find ways to tackle them.

    This is something I HAVE to do and it took me a while to come to this conclusion. Because I'm a self-paced, self-developer, I HAVE to analyse the shit out of my stuff to pick out my weaknesses. Apart from you guys, I don't have anyone pulling me up on my faults, so I religiously study other peoples work and compare it to my own to try to pick up where mine is falling flat and how it can be improved. I'll even go so far to copy other peoples work so I know why they made certain decisions and pick up things I didn't realise at first.
    So yes, I 100% agree with this statement, you have to leave your ego at the door and never be 100% satisfied with what you are producing. The minute you do that, is the minute you stop developing.

    That being said, I'm not saying it's any sort of a substitute for classes, Bacons paintover of my vampire head was probably one of the biggest steps forward I've taken this year, as it threw up exactly where I was going wrong. So yeah, if you can't have a mentor you respect riding your ass, you have to be on the constant hunt for your faults.

    Mustang on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    So after thinking about it further, re-reading over the last couple of pages i've decided not to apply for work at this moment. I might try what Bacon suggested in an earlier post.
    . Before you go and apply to a bunch of jobs and then wonder if the ringer on your phone is broken judging by the silence, try emailing some art directors of companies with some stuff from your portfolio, and be like:
    "Hey ___________, I am __________ and I am looking to become a concept artist in the future. Can you look over my portfolio and tell me what steps I need to take from here in order to be considered at a professional level? Thanks, __________".
    And then, when they get back to you- actually do what they're telling you, because you're not going to get a source of information any more firsthand than that.

    Either that or perhaps i might even call up/send requests to some companies asking if they can offer me some work expierience. I dont know, i'll have to give it some more thought. I'm still pretty set on Tafe next year.


    I am an asshole when it comes to these situations as I had my own little art cherry broken in a very violent humilating way and after I recovered I started getting better at a much much faster pace. Im not doing this just to rape your ego. You seem to really want to get better and make your living doing this. So Im just paying it forward.


    I dont quite get why you arent listenting to bacon. Maybe you will listen to me. As my situation is almost identical to his. I went to a four year uni and wasnt satisfied. I got better training that you and from what Ive seen here I worked a hell of a lot harder than you and produced more. I was still terrible after graduation.


    I am going to put it very bluntly as you seem to have some difficulty processing large amounts of text.

    You- Do- Not- Draw- Well- At - All.

    At all.

    Everything else you do looks bad because you do not draw well.


    Everything you do no matter how much polish you put on it is going to look like an amateur turd until you get better at drawing.

    All the other stuff youve learned and practied. Great it will all look better after you

    Learn
    How
    To
    Draw.





    Stop fucking with anything else and learn how to draw.

    I wasted two years after school until I finally realized hey I should really go somewhere that teaches drawing because Im just not getting it on my own and I cant find the motivation to buckle down on books annd what I used to consider tedious practice..
    ( Its propably good to point out that I am getting freelance work. on a somewhat regular basis and still made that decision)

    After you are given a foundation you can learn from books. Right now Id guess all you do is look at the pictures and say cool.. because you really dont know what the fuck he/shes talking about. I know this because until very recently I did the same thing.


    This is a pretty good illustration of how quickly you can get better at drawing if you commit.

    heres a link to the chaps thread.

    Pay attention to his improvement between 2007 and 2008. Its fucking scary.

    http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114449&page=71


    And heres a rather intersting rant the guy wrote after he got tired of of people bugging him about what the secret is whats his magic schedule.

    Youd do very well to take his advice about writing down your goals so you are constantly reminded of them.
    Okay guys, here's somewhat of a rant on a few things that have been bugging me lately. I'll update later this day but I need to get this out of my head now so I can concentrate again.


    Fist of all I need to say I don't really feel like I'm in any position to give advice, as my skills are far from where they should be, but if I can help anyone with this, it's worth the effort.



    One thing that annoys me to no end is how much people seem to concentrate on the wrong things. The reason why I won't show my schedule is that it's nothing more than a piece of paper with stuff written on it. It only takes on meaning in connection with the guy who created it, which would be me. How would my schedule be of use to anyone else? It's really, REALLY important that you stop thinking in this "If I only had" and "What's his secret" mindset. It makes you dependent and weak and will prevent you from growing. THERE ARE NO SECRETS. I don't say this because I don't want to share my stuff, I say it because it's really, really important to grow a spine and learn to ANALYZE YOUR OWN WORK, look for weaknesses, and find ways to tackle them. Don't take anything for granted! If someone else gives you advice, it's a bonus, but you can NEVER depend on it.That's the most important thing my drum teacher taught me, back when I was a young, arrogant kid and sucked at drumming. He crushed my ego completely by showing me all the things I couldn't do, and, more importantly, how to FIND them. You NEED to learn this if you want to improve - look at your own stuff! To me, working completely from imagination is the best way to do this. I draw a figure, and if I had problems with the shoulders, well, then I'd better go back to studying those! And if I will ever be able to draw a flawless figure, then I know sure as hell that I will rot if I stay in my comfort zone any longer. Get the fuck out of there! Do stuff that you can't do! I feel this is essential - do never look at the things you have already achieved! It will make you fat and lazy. Strive for more, reach for the impossible. This is the only way to prevent stagnation. BELIEVE IN YOURSELF! Look at Jason Manley's story, check out MindCandyMan's thread - people can do anything! You just have to WANT it and WORK TOWARDS IT.

    Back to the schedule, a piece of paper does NOT help you to get up early, it does not help you to stop slacking. What it does is REMIND you. The greatest danger for drive is, in fact, life. There's always so much stuff happening around you that it's terribly easy to lose sight of your goals. So write them down! This is where motivation and drive come from, at least for me - constantly asking yourself "Am I there yet? No? Well, then I'd better bust out a few more drawings, so I can look myself in the face!" You NEED to have this stuff right in your face, or it will get lost. But as soon as you are able to always think of where you want to be, you'll have the best reason to get up early, to not watch TV, to still draw when everyone else is already asleep.

    I touched this above, but let me say it again for emphasis, what I feel is extremely important is becoming INDEPENDENT. This does not mean never talking to anyone else, or that you shouldn't ask for advice if you can't figure out something on your own, or if you're stuck somewhere, I do it too. But it means trying to come up with solutions to your own problems.
    This applies to what I said above - if you notice you can't draw hands, then draw hands! But it also applies to questions like "Where do you get your reference?" Well, where would I get reference? Doesn't it, first of all, depend on what you want to do? If you need to study hands, then why not study your own? Get yourself a mirror and start drawing! If you're looking for specific poses, then why not think about it for a second? Are there sports that have these movements? Yes? Well, then go to google and type something like "handball galleries", or go to flickr and search for "flying kick", and you'll find more stuff than you'll ever be able to study in your whole life! It just depends on what YOU need. There's no such thing as the ultimate source, or the ultimate brush, or the ultimate sketchbook paper (Jesus, why does everyone ask DanielC what paper he uses? =D I remember asking him too a while back, he missed my face just by a few inches!) This is really really important - ANALYZE the problem, and then come up with a specific solution.

    And this is exactly how your schedule should work. And if that is still not enough, then aim higher! Set more goals, like, update daily, do a character every day, reach this artist's level by that date, and so on. This requires a bit of thinking of where you REALLY want to be. Keep your eyes on the horizon!!

    And a last thing that you can't stress enough - listen to Bobby Chiu's podcasts. It's the best. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJowNFmuul8



    Later!



    You shouldnt even bother sending out the promos. You are going into an industry that actually needs people that draw well. IF you were going for freelance editorial illustration id say go for it as anybody with a decent gimmick can get work. Thats The reason I am getting work.


    I know alot of this is redundant information but I felt the need because your reaction annoyed me. You are getting great advice and your reaction should basically be "yes boss, thank you id like another plate of shit to eat" and it isnt.

    Don't know what to say other than you're absolutely right. I'm not effended by someone pointing out that my work a piece of turn (as deep down i know it is), i think my problem was that for the last 4 months i've been in the mindset of working really hard to develop a good portfolio (stress of finishing uni, need a job etc). And to be told i shouldn't send one out, kinda felt like a kick in the nuts. But that was two days ago, im over that now. Time for some new goals! As Mustang pointed out, im in a pretty good position, where i can take advantage of the time i have, especially if i decide to roll with two years at Tafe studying game art (actually learning relevant skills). Cheers for the links.
    cakemix wrote:
    And here is my extremely unhelpful comment after doing a bunch of googling. Australia seems like a really shit place for art.

    In terms of schooling? I think Melbourne and Sydney are supposed to be pretty good. But from what i've found, the only form of schooling in Adelaide are the visual arts programs at University. There are plenty of life drawing classes though, if you want to pay $10-15 a session:x
    One other thing dude. Allot of these artists are talking about doing collaborative drawings.... Do you want to give one a go with me? Id like to see what we both could achieve combining our skills for a drawing. my msn is [email protected]

    I wouldnt mind giving it a go. Though im busy atm with uni. Maybe over the summer we can do some shit :) Ill add you on msn.

    winter_combat_knight on
  • MustangMustang Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    if you want to pay $10-15 a session

    I think that's actually pretty reasonable, when you consider the cost of a model, room hire, instructor (if they have one).

    Mustang on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Part of my Uni narrative project. i was originally going to do all images digital in photoshop, but now i reckon ill be doing all the images in pencil. At the moment it feels like im constantly re-working the same areas not getting anywhere. Plus if i can do more in pencil, it'll be more hand-on and ill be better off for it, in terms of practicing fundamentals

    t7zodg.jpg

    winter_combat_knight on
  • earthwormadamearthwormadam ancient crust Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I'm no expert on anatomy, but there seems to be some problems going on here. The most glaring being that the forearms don't appear to be long enough. On top of that they are coming at the viewer so they should even bigger since perspective wise, they are coming towards us.

    The dudes face looks good but there is like a mile between his facial features and his ear.

    If you are going to pencil things out such as you have, it seems like you should take more time developing them. Now you've already jumped into rendering, and no matter how well you do that, the fundamental errors remain. Don't get ahead of yourself!

    earthwormadam on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    tried to get in some pencil studies in the last few days whenever ive had free time from uni shite

    2lcb91g.jpg

    66j0hk.jpg

    2yuapp0.jpg

    And a WIP for my narrative project for uni

    1ze8dp5.jpg

    winter_combat_knight on
  • KendeathwalkerKendeathwalker Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    pencil studies looking good. Try and take those ideas of the simple forms. Cube and cylider and apply it to the hand. That pencil sharpener is a fairly good drawing. Now just imagine the palm/back of the hand as just that cube/rectangle block and the fingers coming out as cylinders.

    Glen Vilppu is a very good teacher along those lines. Hes put out several DVD's and books. Very straight forward and very easy to grasp.


    That right hand drawing is propably one of the best hands ive seen you draw.

    Kendeathwalker on
  • CharisCharis Registered User
    edited September 2009
    I don't know, man. You need to study some feminine faces, but quick. Your female faces often look like a combination of 'If Ms. Piggy was a human' and 'If Ms. Piggy was a human and a man.' Your last pic isn't so bad. I wish I could tell you better how to fix them, but I have to admit, I'm stumped. I have no idea what is doing it. Someone help a sister out and explain to me (and WCK) what it is.

    Charis on
  • harrykharryk Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Your male and female faces all look like Tom Hanks. It is quite disconcerting.

    harryk on
  • MustangMustang Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I am going to beat those silly looking man chins out of you starting now.

    wck1.png

    That line you use to define the side of the chin is not found on any face anywhere on the planet, it's a shocking habit and you always seem to fall back on it for some reason. The chin is just the peak of the jaw, not a seperate enitity, so that line needs to go all the way from the peak to up under the ear.

    I've cloned stamped it out to show you how much more solid it looks without it.
    wck2.png

    It's actually an okay drawing and I can definately see that you've made some solid progress, it's just those chins, they absolutle destroy all the good structural work you are doing.

    Mustang on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Cheers for the comments/advice fellas. Charis - youre right about the female face. For this update ive referenced more. Hopefully its helping. Mustang - I know. its a freaking awful habbit. As easy as it sounds to stop doing a line, i just keep doing it for some reason. Need to knock that shit out of my head!!!

    Anyway. update.

    axl4k6.jpg

    winter_combat_knight on
  • Guy BellGuy Bell Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I think that it's the girls forehead that's throwing it off. Too much forehead.

    Guy Bell on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Ahhhhh. i think youre right guybell. just toned away some of the forehead and its looking much more girly. Cheers for the heads-up.

    Update - pre forehead edit :)

    Last update for this afternoon. Gonna leave it for a few hours and return to it with fresh eyes. any major issues i should edit before refining more?

    2ymt6ys.jpg

    heres the thumbnail for how i plan to do the overall image. Im planning on doing it all in seperate parts and compositing it all together digitally.
    2lkpc34.jpg

    winter_combat_knight on
  • MustangMustang Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    :^: on getting the clothes to fall correctly. You're taking a lot of stuff on board that has been said in this thread, so props for that.

    Mustang on
  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots perth, ausRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Girls head/neck/groin need attention, as does the guys DDT-exposure birth-defect claw hand. :|

    desperaterobots on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Last update for tonight. Piecing it together in phtoshop. Time to watch Conan!

    2ywydd2.jpg

    winter_combat_knight on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Been working on this all day. Calling it quits for now and am going to work on some of the other drawings for this project. Im pretty happy with the result, in comparison to the digital stuff i was doing. Although crude, i think its looking much better.

    qozy9d.jpg
    2rohnpl.jpg

    winter_combat_knight on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    *shit* - double post

    winter_combat_knight on
  • The_Glad_HatterThe_Glad_Hatter Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Did you draw the background smaller than the figures? Because that's the feeling i'm getting from watching the grain of the paper. It seems like they're in a different "focus" than the rest of the piece. I think, to get better harmony, it'd be better to do some smaller studies on a seperate and draw the whole thing on one sheet. that way it's easier to play with the colour hierarchy and such.
    Also, the mail figures seem superdetailed, while the rest is a bit more.. suggestive, which makes the crudeness of the drawings in the back stand out even more.

    Oh yeah, the piece looks much better than the digital one, but you can see that the poses and objects are still a real challenge for you. (and rightfully so). i'd try to do some daily drawing studies (i just began doing daily portraits this week, and the repetition and speed really forces you to improve and come up with new stuff)

    And just' wondering. Wou would the outer limelights have a cone shape, while the middle one is just a circle... Shouldn't they all just have to be circles?

    The_Glad_Hatter on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    You mean is it scaled up? i drew it at the actual scale it is now, but i think its got that 'out of focus' look because i actually toned a sheet of paper which was photocopied. So there was a slight grey tone filtered over the entire page. Guess my scanner picked it up too much (:x!!!)

    Id like to draw it on a single pice of paper, but at the moment cos of final assignments for uni, doing it on seperate pages is kind of a 'safty' precaution. ATM i dont feel comfortable with devoting a lot of time to a single image, for fear that i might accidently, spill a glass of water or smear shit on it :)

    Nice point on the lights. Consider it edited

    winter_combat_knight on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Hey fellas. Re-working some more of my old images in pencil for this uni project. heres what i got so far for this one. The hair is failing at the moment. I recon ill have to shoot a reference or find one on the net.

    2vagoc7.jpg

    winter_combat_knight on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    * MOVED FROM DOODLE THREAD
    humble wrote: »
    here is a quick mock up

    wckcard.jpg

    the front of the card would just be the small sapling and then on the back as all the info that someone would need

    im not sure if you need to say what product they deal in because they can either call and find out or ask them when they get the card. its just a lot of extra copy that doesnt need to be on the card

    Cheers for the edits mate. Helps to see things differently. The assignment is to re-design 3 business cards, and we have keep all the information on it.
    I do like the idea of just the plant on the front, and the rest on the back.

    Worked on 2 other ones. still WIP :) Stied to take on board some of the critiques given on the last

    single sided
    10rkbc2.jpg

    front

    2hf3sio.jpg
    back

    jpwpxg.jpg

    *all images and logos ive had to draw.

    winter_combat_knight on
  • NightDragonNightDragon 6th Grade Username Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Have you ever read anything about graphic design? Specifically, stuff like white space, alignment, typography, etc? If not, you really, really should. If you have, then you should really, really be reviewing it.

    Also, don't repeat the same information on the card reverse. It's redundant.

    You're not being consistent with things - two of the phone numbers on the back of the last card have spaces, and then one of them does not? Why? The web address isn't even in the same location on the obverse. It's shifted.

    The spacing around objects, and the lack of alignment and consistency on the cards almost makes it seem like you threw different graphics and bits of text on to these things randomly. There's also a bleed and trim area you have to consider around the border of the cards.

    I think you really just need to review some graphic design/typography principles - if you type those into Google I'm sure you'll find a hearty amount of reading material to look over. Maybe also look specifically into "business card design" as well.

    NightDragon on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I know about bleeds in InDesign (and do make use of them), but im not sure how to create them in Microsoft Publisher. Its been difficult balancing things on the page, like the alignment of type and graphics. Designing a business card in Publisher is like trying to do it in Microsoft Word. Lack of layers and the inability to align things pefectly is really frustrating.

    I thought the repeating of information like numbers was a good thing. I dont know why. Now thinking about it, i agree. It is redundant.
    With the phone numbers... typo :oops: Cheers for the heads-up.

    I'll work on them some more and update later. Cheers!

    winter_combat_knight on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Last update for tonight. i think its a slight improvement. Cheers for crits people!

    14o7wbm.jpg

    winter_combat_knight on
  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots perth, ausRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Are these business cards or advertisements? Because business cards exist, primarily, to show the Business name and details of the guy handing it out. It should not be a 2 page run down on the what the business sells, but if you WANT to clutter it up and make it look like something that you have shoved through your mail box and throw away, you still shouldn't be marginalising the very info for which the card exists. Look at how small the name/number of the cardholder is on BOTH of those examples.

    You should have a heirachy of importance here. PET DOORS AND AGENT SMITH SHOULD NOT COME BEFORE THE NAME AND NUMBER OF THE GUY.

    If I were you, I'd have the name of the business, the card holders name and contact details and NOTHING ELSE on the front of the card. The rest is entirely secondary. If you've got teachers saying that business cards should be snazzy and funky and blah blah blah, fuck that noise. Clever business card design is a whole sub-genre of graphic design, but cards that look like brochures are still piles of shit, regardless of how many photoshop filters you throw on them.

    edit: sorry dude, I didnt read that it's mandatory for the exercise to keep all that fucking info on there. Urgh. But still, that should ALL be relegated to 6pt type if necessary to keep the front of the card clean and functional.

    desperaterobots on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    yeah these cards have a shit load of information. Its all about trying to balance it over the front and back. I just submitted them a few minutes ago. Im embarressed to post the final designs... maybe later. :lol:

    Cheers for the crits people. Your crits have definately helped with the final result.

    winter_combat_knight on
  • GrennGrenn Registered User
    edited September 2009
    If I were you, I'd have the name of the business, the card holders name and contact details and NOTHING ELSE on the front of the card. The rest is entirely secondary. If you've got teachers saying that business cards should be snazzy and funky and blah blah blah, fuck that noise. Clever business card design is a whole sub-genre of graphic design, but cards that look like brochures are still piles of shit, regardless of how many photoshop filters you throw on them.

    Basically, if this were ME, I would ditch all the redundant information and create some business card designs that would be decent-looking, stand out from the usual crap and be viable for real life use. I would also tell the teacher why I made the decisions to ditch redundant information.

    If the teacher gives you a duff brief, then take a chance and call them on it.

    My last business card had two pieces of information on it: my name and my website. They have all gone and I am actually designing new ones right now.

    Grenn on
  • NibCromNibCrom Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Watch out for widows! (single-word lines)

    NibCrom on
  • MustangMustang Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Robots wrote:
    Are these business cards or advertisements?

    Gotta admit, they look more like business flyers than business cards.

    Mustang on
  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots perth, ausRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    My business card is my avatar here <--- with my name, email address, and a brief explanation of what I do, literally (guy who does art). The art and guy bit are arguable, sure, but it gives people an idea at any rate.

    desperaterobots on
  • D-RobeD-Robe Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    You should go with "thing that eats too much food".

    D-Robe on
    Cheese.
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Grenn wrote: »
    Basically, if this were ME, I would ditch all the redundant information and create some business card designs that would be decent-looking, stand out from the usual crap and be viable for real life use. I would also tell the teacher why I made the decisions to ditch redundant information.

    If the teacher gives you a duff brief, then take a chance and call them on it.

    I don't think the brief we where given was bad. It was to re-design 3 business cards, where we must contain ALL the original information. I guess this is supposed to be challenging in the sense that as real life graphic designers, we could potentially get clients who want their business cards to be packed full of redundant information.

    winter_combat_knight on
  • GrennGrenn Registered User
    edited September 2009
    Perhaps not bad, but certainly unrealistic, simplistic and uninspiring.

    A graphic designer's job should not always be to follow the instructions of their client 'to the letter' -- the client may think they know what they want but they aren't graphic designers! That's why they're employing someone who knows what they're doing!

    A real life scenario would (or should) be:

    1) Client initially asks for re-design of 3 business cards, where all original information is retained.

    2) Designer spends some time with the client getting to the bottom of the actual purpose of the redesign: what is the client hoping to achieve? Appeal to a different market? Appear more professional? Push a new service? New company branding, needs new cards? etc. What was wrong with the first designs / what prompted the need to redesign?

    3) The designer uses their knowledge and experience to suggest possible solutions to the 'design problem', showing the advantages and disadvantages of retaining additional info. Giving the client a variety of ideas and concepts to choose from.

    4) The newly refined brief, terms and costs are set out and agreed upon, and the Designer starts to produce the work. Amends are worked on to the level specified in the agreement, and in the end some wonderful and contemporary business cards are produced, signed off, and paid for.

    The client then goes away and thinks, "wow, that designer really knew his stuff. He could have easily just done the first thing I asked for, but his tactful manner of really getting the bottom of what I wanted has meant that the end result is far more effective and professional looking than my original ideas. I will certainly use him again."

    This is how you establish good relations with ongoing clients, and get to produce meaningful work.

    You should be employed as a designer because you understand how best to address a client's needs and have IDEAS and EXPERIENCE -- not merely because you can use Photoshop/illustrator.

    School briefs are simplified to the point where they might as well be some Devient Art Tutorial rather than a useful lesson in how to actually engage with your clients and produce meaningful work. You are always going to get 'those clients' who want something to be exactly as shit as they specify but a good designer should be striving for better!

    I've recommended it before, but the book 'How to be a Graphic Designer without losing your Soul' is very good and deals a lot with client relationships. Definitely worth a read.

    Grenn on
  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots perth, ausRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    D-Robe wrote: »
    You should go with "thing that eats too much food".

    :?

    desperaterobots on
  • Jake!Jake! Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    What Grenn said. There are two bad clients, those who give you freedom when what they really mean is that they know what they want, but they can't describe it, and those who think they know how to draw a bloody picture, and would do it themselves if they had the time/a computer (not to be confused with a client who can draw a bloody picture).

    Maybe you want to just ignore that because this is academia, but it is a bad brief. In the real world, you need to either; a) work with the client and bring them around, or b) drop them as a client. There are clients you don't need, especially if you're interested in doing more than just takeaway menus.


    Also, I'm quite surprised how poor these are, given how critical I've seen you be of others work here. On the first side of the first card;
    • The lock 'i' doesn't work, it looks like the card reads 'nstant security'.
    • Doors and Screens doesn't line up with any part of the logo
    • The man is facing the wrong way, and will be tiny on the card
    • The second set of stripes don't relate to the first
    • There's that orphan already mentioned
    • leading is a bit low on the info text, and you've made an odd change of face
    • You're still not working with a bleed. You know that in addition to the additional bleed area, you need to ensure that important elements (logos, text etc) aren't too close to the page edge, because they can be cropped off for the same reason you have a bleed in the first place.

    You could also have a look at these;
    http://www.amazon.com/Making-Breaking-Grid-Graphic-Workshop/dp/1592531253/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1252953665&sr=1-1
    http://www.amazon.com/Stop-Stealing-Sheep-Find-Works/dp/0201703394

    Jake! on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    New pic working on. based off an old composiion i did in watercolours.
    Im definately gonna have to fix that dudes face though. Oh god its bad :)
    Im trying to go for the kind of 'film noir' look to the lighting. The light will be dim from behind the doors/dude (not toned yet) and a dim spot light above the two characters. It will fade to really dark shades on the edges of the framing. Does the shading look convincing so far? After scanning i can see issues with the direction of the lind work on the bricks.

    157ltp1.jpg

    winter_combat_knight on
  • Isaac_FeltonIsaac_Felton Registered User
    edited September 2009
    It looks like it needs a bit of work to make the shot look more interesting. More "character" to the characters and the environment around them needs some more life.

    It looks like a prosthetic hand is going to fall out of the jacket sleeve and the guy who has his back to is looks like he is too side on to the guy he's shaking his hand with... although this probably isn't a problem it just looks this way as the second guy appears quite far back in comparison.

    Maybe go back to roughing up the composition again.. go for a cinematic shot too and consider your framing and the characters eye levels. Good luck dude

    Isaac_Felton on
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