WCK's Drawings - The Good, the Bad and the Badass

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  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    im kinda liking combining my pencil work with digital colouring.

    ive thrown in photos of people from holiday snaps to save the time i would have needed to draw them. though i dont think it suits the rest of the style

    26582465.jpg

    winter_combat_knight on
  • bwaniebwanie Posting into the void Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    it's almost esheresque, the way your perspective is completely off.

    seriously dude, do you not see that?

    edit: wait didn't you already post this? if so, ignore my comment.

    bwanie on
    Yh6tI4T.jpg
  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots perth, ausRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    WCK, do you look at your own work and go "Hmm what's wrong with this and how can I fix it?" Because I'd be interested to see you red-pen that last piece and explain to us where the problems are.

    Because there are lots of problems, and I'm interested to know if you can see them.

    desperaterobots on
  • bwaniebwanie Posting into the void Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    it's quite captivating trying to discover all the little things that don't add up, like some headache-inducing game of "Find-it".

    bwanie on
    Yh6tI4T.jpg
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    WCK, do you look at your own work and go "Hmm what's wrong with this and how can I fix it?" Because I'd be interested to see you red-pen that last piece and explain to us where the problems are.

    Because there are lots of problems, and I'm interested to know if you can see them.

    I dont know what you're talking about... Everything lines up to me;)

    lineupil.jpg

    Actually doing that above red-line helped me see how things really are off. Trying to curve the lines was difficult on areas, showing how far out the perspective was.
    Just to explain my process with this bad boy, originally the perspective was supposed to be off canvas, then i changed areas, cropped etc, and i kinda lost track of the original perspectve grid. Not really much to say other than "what was i thinking?"

    winter_combat_knight on
  • TheJacksTheJacks Registered User
    edited November 2009
    How I loathe the rate at which you improve

    TheJacks on
  • exfauxsureexfauxsure Registered User
    edited November 2009
    im kinda liking combining my pencil work with digital colouring.

    I like it too... that's why it drives me nuts after lurking this thread this long that you havent improved to the point I know you can improve to.

    I look forward to seeing more studies.

    exfauxsure on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    exfauxsure wrote: »

    I look forward to seeing more studies.

    This is just the entree of whats to come. Actually, its just the bread roll which comes with the entree.

    60862672.jpg

    94883899.jpg

    102kip.jpg

    100h.jpg

    101wh.jpg

    winter_combat_knight on
  • ManonvonSuperockManonvonSuperock Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    bottom face on the top left page. surprisingly unstiff for your work. keep that up.

    ManonvonSuperock on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    cheers man, thought i should probably mention, those faces are copied directly from the drawing book 'Drawing the head and figure' - by Jack Hamm. Its pretty good. Kinda old 1940s styled drawings :) I spent $20 yesterday photocopying a bunch of anatomy books from uni :)

    winter_combat_knight on
  • bwaniebwanie Posting into the void Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    yeah man, that looks really nice.

    bwanie on
    Yh6tI4T.jpg
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Thanks fellas.

    Decided to try that method Bacon showed in the previous page. Working with triangles and grids to get the rpoportions right. i wasnt in the mood for working on a face, so i did it on a whole body pose.
    spent 2.5-3 hours on this.
    *i got lazy with the ammo belt :)
    spoiler = reference
    104xe.jpg

    103dl.jpg

    winter_combat_knight on
  • ScosglenScosglen Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    The point of doing the face study is that it is a part of the body that is often the most egregiously symbolized, and so you have to pay extra careful attention to not fall into formulaic constructions when drawing one from reference. It also forces you to pay attention to a specific part of the body and let you focus on getting everything there good and accurate rather than overwhelming you with a full figure drawing.

    The MJ drawing is okay, the proportionality is roughly correct but you still are not REALLY REALLY looking at your forms. The shape of the ear, eyes, nose, mouth, hand are all varying degrees of wrong.

    Seriously, quit with the stalling and do a study with proper reference.

    Scosglen on
  • GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Man WCK, you gotta work on your line quality. Like, you've been posting in this thread this long and you still haven't done anything about it.

    What the hell man. Start doing some damn blind contour drawings already.


    I ain't gonna sugar-coat it because if you really are in a hole regarding your art situation over in Australia, you need to hear this post-haste.

    Godfather on
  • deadlydoritodeadlydorito __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2009
    WCK, do you look at your own work and go "Hmm what's wrong with this and how can I fix it?" Because I'd be interested to see you red-pen that last piece and explain to us where the problems are.

    Because there are lots of problems, and I'm interested to know if you can see them.

    I dont know what you're talking about... Everything lines up to me;)

    lineupil.jpg

    Actually doing that above red-line helped me see how things really are off. Trying to curve the lines was difficult on areas, showing how far out the perspective was.
    Just to explain my process with this bad boy, originally the perspective was supposed to be off canvas, then i changed areas, cropped etc, and i kinda lost track of the original perspectve grid. Not really much to say other than "what was i thinking?"

    more like... who gives a shit your still improving go go go!

    edit, what is a blind countour drawing?

    deadlydorito on
  • Angel_of_BaconAngel_of_Bacon Moderator mod
    edited November 2009
    Might want to throw your drawing over the ref in PS and spend some time figure out how and where things got thrown off.

    Things that strike me on cursory examination
    -No underplane to the nose or jaw or codpiece or whatever the hell that is- flattened out the armband and belt. Result: flatness of form, does not read as being in perspective. Look how much more depth there is to the head in the photo than the drawing!
    -Angles and thickness of legs are off. Watch how the negative space between the arm and body change
    -Shoulder misplaced, angle of the arm too vertical.

    WCK_mj.gif

    You may have improved your measuring a bit, but as the .gif shows, you still need to be spending more time on it as of yet. If you have to spend 1-3 hours just measuring to get it accurate before you go into tone, do so. Better to get things right than plowing into an inaccurate drawing and hoping you'll get salvage it with toning, because it just doesn't work. Remember, the point of this is to train your eye to see accurately, not just to get a finished piece.


    Also, for the love of God, pick a proper reference. For one thing, concerts are going to have a crap load of crazy ass lights and second of all you've picked a model wearing a shirt that is basically the same kind of pattern as car companies paint on their secret test models, specifically so people won't be able to figure out it's form when viewed in photographs.

    http://jalopnik.com/5404153/mclaren-mp4+12c-development-video?autoplay=true
    http://jalopnik.com/5355073/mclaren-mp4+12c-first-photos-details

    http://jalopnik.com/5381294/2010-bmw-5+series-gets-a-swirly
    http://jalopnik.com/400339/2010-cadillac-srx-spotted-in-minimal-super-chess-camo

    Stop slowing your progress down by making seeing the form harder for yourself and pic good references. Single light source! Emphasis on defining the form, not ancillary detail bullshit! If you can't yet draw a simple object believably, how do you expect to draw even more complex things draped in a confusing mish-mash of what the fuck and have it look right?

    Here's an example of what I'd consider a good ref:
    bernini_photo.jpg


    It's got a single, simple light source, with a bit of reflected light on the opposite side. It has a good definition between light and shade to show off the form. It has good reproduction of halftones in the both the light and the shade- neither is blown out or flattened by being too contrasty. As a bonus to it being a statue, there is only the form to focus on, so you won't be getting distracted by local colors or tones in your shading. Same principle behind doing cast studies.

    I'd bust out a nice, decent-sized piece of paper or bristol and spend 30 hours with a variety of pencil hardnesses, trying to recreate this reference to the best of your ability- really put the work in to get a smooth, photoreal result. 3 hours a week for 10 weeks. Spend your time measuring, breaking down the forms, taking the time to understand the light. Do what you can, step away for a bit, reevaluate. Dull and arduous and not at all fun? Maybe, but you'll get ahead a hell of a lot quicker by developing the patience to take your time on what matters, rather than rushing ahead to try to get results in a few minutes or hours. Only once you understand the full subtly of all that is there in measurement and form, will you be able to effectively apply what you've learned quickly in shorthand drawing.

    This is from the Phaidon book on Bernini if you want a better copy of this- the whole book is full of good to go references for practice drawing form if you check it out. Their Michelangelo book is similarly good.

    Angel_of_Bacon on
  • deadlydoritodeadlydorito __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2009
    damn, the real MJ has some energy about him :S

    deadlydorito on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Bacon - I looked up those Bernini books and they look amazing. I found some images on the net which are pretty cool. Definately give that above face a go today. *never thought of drawing statues before, but it makes sense. Thanks for the overlay of my mj pic. I can see things align alright, but there is definately lack of structure. ARGH!!! So many things to consider! :):)
    Thanks for the critique!

    Got up early this morning to do some more Bridgeman studies. Tried to improve my line work as Godfather pointed out. Some are looking better, but others i noticed the habbits kicking in again. But im considering it more :)

    106sxs.jpg

    107zd.jpg

    110au.jpg

    109e.jpg

    108zu.jpg

    Cheers fellas

    winter_combat_knight on
  • Angel_of_BaconAngel_of_Bacon Moderator mod
    edited November 2009
    Might want to try approaching Bridgman in the way Erik suggests- I see a lot of copying of line, but not a lot of description on how the form functions:
    http://deadoftheday.blogspot.com/2009/07/perspiration-anatomy.html

    Harder, but you'll get more out of it.

    Angel_of_Bacon on
  • KendeathwalkerKendeathwalker Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    A good resource..

    Flash Turnarounds of ecroches

    http://reybustos.com/04er/er.html

    Kendeathwalker on
  • IkageIkage Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    EDIT: Used a shift key on this one. Sorry I don't use painting programs like Painter or Photoshop for my linework. And I didn't want to go through the trouble of lighttabling this or whatever.
    iusedshiftkeyfinal.gif

    Also heres a tip. Keep doors or anything that might be of the same measurements on the same parallel line. Saves you a biggg headache.
    iusedshiftkeyfinalcar.gif

    How your car should of turned out like. 10+ cool points whoever knows who this famous car is.

    Okay sweets.

    http://media.massiveblack.com/downloads.html

    Carl Dobsky. Buy both his perspective vidyas. I would suggest waiting until a sale. But don't just watch them/ Do the exercises and try understanding them. Trust me it is painlessly easy and once you get it. You get it and your environments improve +10 lvls.

    I think your major problem that is stunting you through this is your rushing for a result. And learning takes time and patience. You need to sit back and analyze what your doing and why. Sometimes information all at once can be overbearing like driving a car. It is sooo stressful until you calm down, break down every part and learn slowly.

    Soon good habits turn into second nature once you nail them in. Don't be afraid of redoing the basics ( I still draw little balls and cylinders for every serious piece I do to help me with form.). But don't be scared to jump in and challenge yourself time to time.

    Ikage on
    STRONGER THEN DIRT!! DIRT STRONG!
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Thanks for the encouraging words Ikage.

    Been working on this for well over three hours. Calling this bad boy quits. Reckon ill give it another go tomorrow night.

    111gux.jpg

    winter_combat_knight on
  • IkageIkage Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    No problem! Also one thing I got scolded on when I was showing my portfolios was handwriting my own text in. Never do that. It looks unprofessional as all get out.

    So whenever it comes to text leave it blank or a light sketch and fill it out on the computer with font.

    Ikage on
    STRONGER THEN DIRT!! DIRT STRONG!
  • Angel_of_BaconAngel_of_Bacon Moderator mod
    edited November 2009
    Improving, sitting down and putting down 3 hours or work is helping. But you still yet need to slow down more. Remember, this is meant as a 30 hour hour exercise- I didn't throw that number in for hyperbole. If after 3 hours the measurements aren't correct, spend 3, 6, 9 more hours until they are. You're 1/10th of the way in- throwing down tone at this point is going to work against you at this point if things aren't lining up right.

    This should show why I'm saying measurement is so important:
    WCK_Bernini.gif

    First major thing is that your head is stretched vertically compared to the ref. The next frame is me stretching it horizontally to fit the ref better. I don't know if you were using a grid to do your initial measurements and used a grid either too small to catch yourself doing this, or marked the grid off on your paper at a different ratio than the ref, but in either case, it's a problem that needs to be addressed.

    Other things (going off my version where I stretched it to fit better):
    -sides of the face- yours are almost straight verticals, the ref has angled sides
    -brought the underplane of the jaw down too low, giving him a double chin
    -underplane of nose has been squished vertically
    -mouth has been moved up
    -eyes are both shifted a bit to the right, and the shapes of the eyes don't follow the ref. The ref's upper and lower eyelids take up more area vertically. Look at the upper lids- you can clearly see a plane on the underside of the lid, which you've not shown. Look at the eye on the left- you can see that with the upper lid, the eyelid is bulging to the left, as that is where the eyeball is looking. Look at the edge of the lower lid- it's angled down towards the outside, where you've straightened yours to a horizontal.
    -Collar of the shirt goes out further to the right
    -On the cheek on the right, you've exaggerated the shadow on the left side under the cheekbone, as well as bringing it too high. The result is it looks like his face is being cut into, rather than naturally fading into shadow.
    -Hair is sort of sloppily treated. Lots of lines, no forms. Remember, this is a statue, thinking about how it was sculpted, as a solid, physical object. Break up those curls of hair as simple cylinders, as solid forms.

    Now, this gets into why rushing into to toning is a bad idea, because now to fix these things to be precise and accurate, you're going to have to do a lot of erasing, which is annoying ans frustrating, and can ruin your paper. Now, sometimes you have to just go ahead and make mistakes in order to see them, and that's fine, as long as you do, in the end, see your mistakes and fix them. It's just going to be long and frustrating, but that's why doing a study like this is something that takes 30 hours. Making, seeing, and fixing mistakes, over and over and over and over until it's right. That's what drawing fundamentals are all about, and it's good that you're now putting the requisite time into the process. Can't be doing the playtime kid's karate class anymore, it's time to be a shaolin fucking monk, with all the hardships and rewards that entails.

    I don't want to get too much into toning advice, as you probably shouldn't do much of it before your next update, but things I'd keep an eye on are the shapes make by the light and shadow. Compare, for example, the angles of that triangle of light on the cheek on the left- three lines formed by the cast shadow of the nose, the form shadow of the cheekbone, and the cast/form shadow of the lower eyelid- in the ref and the drawing. You've perceived it as a triangle, yes, but look how further it extends to the left in the ref, and see how the whole shape of that triangle has been thrown off by that lower eyelid being misplaced, putting that cast shadow in the wrong spot.
    Also, when you do go into tone, make sure to compare your tone from one area to another. Example, look on the forehead- you've got the right area, completely in light, then the middle area, a bit shaded owing to the sort of subtle brow divot there, and then the completely light area on the left, then the sharp form shadow. But hold up, look at the lit area on the left on the ref, then compare it to the lit area on the right. The left area, which you've left unshaded, is significantly darker, closer in tone to the area underneath the cheekbone on the right, which you have shaded on your drawing. The result is that left area is going to appear to bulge out unnaturally, because you've paid attention only to a detail (the brow divot) and not to the whole (the cylindrical turning of form across the whole of the forehead).
    Nathan Fowkes explains this concept well at the tail end of this demo (he makes it look easy because he's done it the hard way a million times already):
    http://nathanfowkes.blogspot.com/2008/09/head-drawing-demo.html

    Again, not saying this to just be harsh or to beat you into the submission, but to help you to gain a level of perception that you simply will not get by doing casual or quick studies, but which is necessary for doing high-level realistic work in drawing or painting. If you're not seeing your mistakes, I'll have to point them out until you start seeing them yourself. It may seem like nitpicking at first blush, but this is the value of doing such a lengthy study- to be able to put everything you've got at something without compromise, laying your weaknesses bare, and engaging unflinchingly with your perceptual and drawing problems. No excuses here with deadlines or "oh it was just a quick thing"- it's right or it isn't. The very simplicity of the concept is what makes it so goddamned difficult.


    Also: Yay for
    Herbie!

    Angel_of_Bacon on
  • D-RobeD-Robe Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I wish bacon was my sitcom dad.

    D-Robe on
    Cheese.
  • ScosglenScosglen Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    As Bacon pointed out, you still aren't *quite* there, but so as to not despair after his litany of critique, I want to affirm that even though it's off, this is still the best drawing in the entire thread.

    This is the kind of thing that is going to fix your drawing skills. The kind of thing they should have made you do at school. Maybe you think it's boring, but you have to think of it as doing your pushups. You are conditioning your brain and hand. Work with the right mindset and it becomes easier to find joy in the process.

    Scosglen on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Bacon – Dude! Dude! Dude!
    You should be an art instructor! Very much appreciated!
    I didn’t realise you meant 30 hours for a single picture! I don’t even spend that long on an acrylic or oil painting.
    I didn’t use a grid for this drawing. Though I did measure/guess using a ruler. I’ll do a proper grid set-up for the next attempt on this.
    Im not too confident with pencil toning yet. Still need to work on that.

    Scos – Usually these studies are boring, but ive found that seeing the progress/end results with a ‘slight’ improvement makes it fun

    Dunno what else to say. Cheers fellas.

    winter_combat_knight on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Dont wanna bore you all with gesture studies, so ill post the more creative stuff.
    Just a few selections

    Did these from reference

    123t.jpg

    120xo.jpg

    Need to practice drawing female bodies. I suppose applying a female face to those bodies would help :)

    122qi.jpg

    121iz.jpg

    winter_combat_knight on
  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2009
    Dont wanna bore you all with gesture studies, so ill post the more creative stuff.

    personally, I'd prefer to see the gestures.
    Need to practice drawing female bodies. I suppose applying a female face to those bodies would help :)

    Applying a female body would help, too. You've just stuck boobs on a male torso. Women's waists and hips don't usually work like that, the distances from waist to crotch and bellybutton to crotch are far too long, unless she's actually wearing her pants at clitoris level, etc. Was there are reference for this? Can we see it? This is where getting a look at your gestures would actually really help people to give feedback, because there's some fundamental misconceptions going on, and it's hard to see whether they're creeping in at the initial sketching/visualisation stage or arriving over time as you add detail.

    tynic on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    tynic wrote: »
    You've just stuck boobs on a male torso. Women's waists and hips don't usually work like that, the distances from waist to crotch and bellybutton to crotch are far too long, unless she's actually wearing her pants at clitoris level, etc.

    Like i said, i've got to practice :) Im too used to drawing dudes.
    tynic wrote: »
    Was there are reference for this? Can we see it? This is where getting a look at your gestures would actually really help people to give feedback, because there's some fundamental misconceptions going on, and it's hard to see whether they're creeping in at the initial sketching/visualisation stage or arriving over time as you add detail.

    The drawing was done using a random angle in posemaniacs (didnt save it though)

    winter_combat_knight on
  • KendeathwalkerKendeathwalker Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    basics man.

    http://analyticalfiguresp08.blogspot.com/

    this stuff is like art math but it teaches more accurate drawing from imagination.

    Kendeathwalker on
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Nice link ken, nice¬!

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Nice link ken, nice¬!

    Haha. for a second i thought you where saying one of my drawings looked like Link and Ken from zelda/street fighter.

    I agreee. Nice link ken!

    winter_combat_knight on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    So did some more on my mates bday painting. Im done with the face for now. Really struggling with the values and colour. Gonna block in the rest of his body really sloppy just so i know where its going, then i'll blend it all together afterwards.

    126zk.jpg

    *the colours for his body will be based off this previous attempt

    125f.jpg

    winter_combat_knight on
  • deadlydoritodeadlydorito __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2009
    wouldnt his face be all blue and stuff because of the blue light? or not maybe i donno :P

    deadlydorito on
  • winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    Probably, but I find it hard to mix multiple colours together in a small area, while trying to keep the values consistant

    Its concert lighting, so it probably doesnt make sense anyway :)

    heres the reference.
    68023359.jpg

    winter_combat_knight on
  • mullymully Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    yeah, those highlights are definitely have a blue tint to them, as do the lips, which are much pinker

    brightening your highlights will help bunches

    mully on
  • KendeathwalkerKendeathwalker Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    the head is to small and the shoulders to wide.

    Kendeathwalker on
  • desperaterobotsdesperaterobots perth, ausRegistered User regular
    edited November 2009
    I still don't understand why you're drawing michael fucking jackson. his face is not normal. NOT NORMAL.

    desperaterobots on
  • NightDragonNightDragon 6th Grade Username Registered User regular
    edited November 2009
    WCK you are not looking at the reference AT. ALL.

    At all.

    His jaw looks nothing like that in the photograph. His lips look nothing like the photograph. You're not looking at negative space at all - if you had, there'd be more of a likeness there, and you wouldn't have made his head so damn small.

    Again.

    Again.

    Again.

    Look. At. The. Reference. And. Draw what is THERE. Really LOOK. There is so much information available to you - and obviously so, I'm not even talking about the details, but just the major shapes - that you have completely ignored.

    NightDragon on
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