So I... I didn't realize HoNC != The West Coast server. See, I've hopped on that one a couple of times and saw some rather odd maps, so I sort of assumed.
Downloading the HoNC map pack as I type this, so hopefully I'll be able to see what all the fuss is about.
Ugh. Customs maps are still shit then. Desert Fortress is awful, completely unplayable. Whoever made this did little to no testing, it's a pure sniper/scout map and every other class gets boned. You pretty much have to push to C before you can cap A and B, Snipers can take you out from a ridiculous distance, far, far out of range of any other weapon in the game (except a rocket, and that would take 30 seconds to arrive). Hell, they can snipe the exit from your own spawn with impunity. It's 90% wide open space that allows scouts to dominate every other class in the game.
That's a negatory, Ghost Rider. A sniper near their spawn flat-out can't see you in A, and can't see you at B unless you aren't paying attention to where you're standing and decide to wander into their line-of-sight. Soldiers make quick work of scouts at A because of all the places for splash damage, and B is so open that it's just as hard to effectively defend the point as it is to defend yourself while you cap, scouts especially. Soldiers and demos can hop over the middle roof for easier flanking, and there are all kinds of tunnels and corridors for pyros and spies to get into position with. I'd say the hardest time is for engineers, because it's not very easy to keep sentries up anywhere but by your last point.
And there's no C. Are you sure you're thinking of the right map?
There are 4 cps, one is your team's, then there are two middle ones and the enemy team's which isn't labelled C but I've called it as such because the 3rd cp you have to cap to win. I didn't say a sniper could hit you from spawn; snipers can cover the uncovered middle point from the little pavilion place just out of spawn, which is way too far away to be fair. Plus there's that barbed wire which prevents you from being able to shoot rockets back or whatever. And then they can snipe from the middle directly into your spawn. Yes B is covered, but demospam from outside the building will clear the point pretty much all the time, hence why you have to fight past the point to get a cap.
The whole map is just too big, it could work if it were scaled down somewhat.
Also, thanks butterfly, that's pretty much exactly the level of intelligent response I expect from people here.
Rami on
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
So redstone is a pretty cool map, but it's ludicrously huge.
And Desert Fortress is a fine map, it's just that we were on the steamrolled side so the perception gets skewed. Of course you're fucked if the enemy has a sniper that's significantly better than yours, because then your heavy (aka the scout-killer) is walking fodder whenever he dares go into the open. But you could say the same about a lot of maps.
Oh, and on the vaguely related topic of snipers, Mach 4 is way too sniper centric. Could do with an additional exit topside to stop funneling.
Still don't like Corporation though. But that's maybe because I'm not a fan of Dustbowl.
Approximately half of the cap zone for B cannot be seen from anywhere in the enemy base or on their bridge, so you can easily stand there to avoid snipers. As for sniping into people's spawn, I've never seen it happen for more than a second. If somewhere between two-thirds and all of your team is dead such that no one is pressing that point and harassing the sniper, you already are going to have a lot of problems. In any case if it's so scout-friendly, the scouts should have little trouble taking the lower-level corridor to B and pummeling the sniper from behind. I've never felt it to be overly large, since it takes about the same amount of time to walk to A from spawn as it does to walk from spawn to C in gravelpit.
But I'm glad you're thinking of the same map, at least.
SithDrummer on
0
Goose!That's me, honeyShow me the way home, honeyRegistered Userregular
edited April 2008
It had nothing to do with the software, Smash, it was my stereo mix from me recording songs for piping.
For some reason I can't get it to stay off.
Hopefully I'll have that fixed. Anyway, I'll be fixing that later, for now, watch this (while I upload my 2 test vids from testing the software):
I disagree, there were two sniper dots permanently trained over our spawn doors the entire time they were assaulting our final point. You're also forgetting heavies. Yes the scouts can easily run rings around heavy in all the open space there, but that isn't the case in that situation. It's a very, very long straight bridge out of spawn to the building in the middle where the snipers would be. When your final point is under attack you will struggle to have a scout go the distance amongst all the enemies pouring into your base and heavies standing out on the bridge. In other words, the only situation in this map where scouts could be really useful is the one time they'll struggle to get anywhere. It isn't difficult for the offensive team to bring their snipers to the middle of the bridge where they cannot be attacked from the side and are easily defended by sheer mass of allied fire at both the front and back.
Rami on
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
I don't really understand your complaint. Snipers can shoot you from a distance? STOP THE PRESSES!
And I don't know why they changed 2-2 in corporation. It's much harder to attack now that there's the tiny doors next to the walls. The old design of that cap seemed fine.
Desert Fortress does give an advantage to snipers with some great sniper positions, but I wouldn't say it's gamebreaking. There are other routes besides the top path, and they're usually sniper free.
Desert Fortress does give an advantage to snipers with some great sniper positions, but I wouldn't say it's gamebreaking. There are other routes besides the top path, and they're usually sniper free.
Yeah, the lower corridor that goes underneath B is almost never used, and rarely checked.
I don't really understand your complaint. Snipers can shoot you from a distance? STOP THE PRESSES!
And I don't know why they changed 2-2 in corporation. It's much harder to attack now that there's the tiny doors next to the walls. The old design of that cap seemed fine.
The distance is too far. This is a twitch arcade game, not BF2. Nobody enjoys getting one shot from somebody so far away they can barely be seen. Especially not when it covers your spawn exit.
Play any Valve map, you will not find sniping lengths that large at any significant part of the map.
Rami on
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
I don't really understand your complaint. Snipers can shoot you from a distance? STOP THE PRESSES!
And I don't know why they changed 2-2 in corporation. It's much harder to attack now that there's the tiny doors next to the walls. The old design of that cap seemed fine.
The distance is too far. This is a twitch arcade game, not BF2. Nobody enjoys getting one shot from somebody so far away they can barely be seen. Especially not when it covers your spawn exit.
Play any Valve map, you will not find sniping lengths that large at any significant part of the map.
I don't know about you, but if I step outside and see a lanky silhouette in the distance, I'm fucking dancing - I don't care how far away he is. Besides, what's the difference between him standing on B and him standing on your bridge? Either way, you're getting insta-killed without being close enough to do anything to him.
And exiting via your capture point to the lower corridor I keep talking about will not put you in his sights if he's standing there.
I don't really understand your complaint. Snipers can shoot you from a distance? STOP THE PRESSES!
And I don't know why they changed 2-2 in corporation. It's much harder to attack now that there's the tiny doors next to the walls. The old design of that cap seemed fine.
The distance is too far. This is a twitch arcade game, not BF2. Nobody enjoys getting one shot from somebody so far away they can barely be seen. Especially not when it covers your spawn exit.
Play any Valve map, you will not find sniping lengths that large at any significant part of the map.
I don't really understand your complaint. Snipers can shoot you from a distance? STOP THE PRESSES!
And I don't know why they changed 2-2 in corporation. It's much harder to attack now that there's the tiny doors next to the walls. The old design of that cap seemed fine.
The distance is too far. This is a twitch arcade game, not BF2. Nobody enjoys getting one shot from somebody so far away they can barely be seen. Especially not when it covers your spawn exit.
Play any Valve map, you will not find sniping lengths that large at any significant part of the map.
Clearly you've never played Badlands.
The approach to cp 2 is long, yes. But the cap point is 90% shielded by a wall from both attacking directions, and the raised platform is also 90% walled off, which prevents any super sniping from both the attackers and the defenders. You can snipe from there, but not to any greater extent than the smaller areas that comprise most of the game.
If I were to describe TF2 (official) maps in one word it would be : medium.
Almost everything map-wise is medium in this game. You can't have small areas because demo spam and pyros would ruin it, you can't have large areas because snipers and scouts would ruin it. And when Valve do use large/small areas, they are not in the most significant part of the map, and they (large areas) are well covered. You'll notice that the few parts of the official maps that people complain about are the large bits (the long corridor between points on Hydro, DB 6 etc.) or small bits (the intersection between DB 5 and 6 etc.).
Sure, from the exit to point B from C on gravelpit, a sniper has a very long range down to the fence at the other end. It's also pretty insignificant, and it's a narrow sight due to the large building that houses the B point itself, providing plenty of cover for 70% of the area as well as multiple paths to that platform (especially going through A). Custom maps are falling down because these sorts of areas are appearing in critical locations.
Regardless, nobody is saying you can't play on and enjoy these maps. But for me their shortcomings are too obvious and throw off class balance to too high a degree to be enjoyed. I'm going to bed.
Rami on
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
0
ShogunHair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get alongRegistered Userregular
edited April 2008
I don't feel that they throw off class balance to a great deal though they all do. What really throws the class balance off is when in said map you get a lot of the same class. Aqua if you get a bunch of demos and soldiers its ridiculous. Desertfortress its scouts. There are three levels of verticle pathway which leads to a ridiculous amount of flanking. You are never safe any time on that map. The snipers aren't even the worst part as they are easily flanked from behind and ganked. For me on that map it was the scouts.
Desert Fortress is awful, completely unplayable. Whoever made this did little to no testing,
Well, yes. It was the first version of the map he released four months ago, and it hasn't been updated since. It'd be *nice* to see a new version, but people seem to enjoy it regardless.
Warpath. I don't know what to say, does anything need to be said? It's a disgrace. Ugly, incoherent crap that looks like someone plonked down some assets for 10 minutes and thought 'hey pretty good'.
So, a perfect port from the TFC version. Gotcha.
My advice would be: lower the map count. You have too many in rotation, bring it down to 6 or 7 and swap a few out each week. New players don't want to be downloading maps between every game, and there are so many you never get a chance to play one map for a decent amount of time to grow accustomed to it.
That *is* what the map-pack is for.
Get rid RTV. Seriously. Nothing good has come from any server having RTV. No mods, no voting. These are the maps, this is the order you play them. Having maps constantly switched around every 8 minutes does nothing to enhance anyone's enjoyment. There's always a few people who'd rather be on another map at any given time, but you know what? They'll tough it out. Job's server does not empty when any map comes up, not on hydro or even 2fort. If you give them RTV, it gets used, everything gets scrambled, and then a different few disgruntled people RTV as soon as the 5 minutes are up.
...which was never a problem tonight, since the only votes that ever came up were ones I called for at the end near the end of a map, to let people choose where to go next.
Impose some damn order. Yeah people can joke around and have fun but you have a problem when the maturity level is equal to special needs playgroup. Hand out tempbans. It's funny, but Job's is the only server with no active modding, and it's also the one with the highest maturity levels among the players.
Funny, I never saw anything that was ban-worthy...
Of course, this is all immaterial because there are still no custom maps worth a damn.
...other than this, of course.
PMAvers on
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
0
ShogunHair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get alongRegistered Userregular
edited April 2008
Also redstone is good. I like redstone. Desert fortress did not live up to said hype.
My advice would be: lower the map count. You have too many in rotation, bring it down to 6 or 7 and swap a few out each week. New players don't want to be downloading maps between every game, and there are so many you never get a chance to play one map for a decent amount of time to grow accustomed to it.
That *is* what the map-pack is for.
I looked at the listing and realized that it didn't have everything (it didn't have cp_aqua, which was the map on rotation when i was joining) so I'm just downloading it as they come
I looked at the listing and realized that it didn't have everything (it didn't have cp_aqua, which was the map on rotation when i was joining) so I'm just downloading it as they come
...Did you get the one from the OP, or my sig?
The OP one's out-dated, and I need to get whoever did it to change the link.
PMAvers on
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
It seems to be vidcapping well, the sound recording is actually pretty awesome. I hope you work the kinks out.
You can see my sweet medic butt running around there too! Screaming about various spies and scouts, hoping to reach uber before a final death.
Mad medic to patient love over here!
circlejerk is really fun if, for no other reason than it leads to hilarious voicechat.
I haven't played it in a while so I'm not sure if its been updated, but I remember some of the points were much easier to defend than others. Cactus, I think, was the easiest.
It was nice to see you play a class that requires more than clicking the mouse. I was surprised I was able to do as well against you as I did. I can't wait to get a new computer.
and please do not oversimplify like that, otherwise i could just say that pyro requires less skill because technically your finger shouldn't leave mouse button 1
tyrannus on
0
ShogunHair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get alongRegistered Userregular
and please do not oversimplify like that, otherwise i could just say that pyro requires less skill because technically your finger shouldn't leave mouse button 1
Man if there was more to it than firing a rocket at your feet I would.
and please do not oversimplify like that, otherwise i could just say that pyro requires less skill because technically your finger shouldn't leave mouse button 1
pssh. i don't want my friends to know what i do with my time!
Facebook is for real people, not internet people!
Svidrigailov on
Neither the whole of truth nor the whole of good is revealed to any single observer, although each observer gains a partial superiority of insight from the peculiar position in which he stands. It is enough to ask of each of us that he should be faithful to his own opportunities and make the most of his own blessings, without presuming to regulate the rest of the vast field.
Posts
Downloading the HoNC map pack as I type this, so hopefully I'll be able to see what all the fuss is about.
There are 4 cps, one is your team's, then there are two middle ones and the enemy team's which isn't labelled C but I've called it as such because the 3rd cp you have to cap to win. I didn't say a sniper could hit you from spawn; snipers can cover the uncovered middle point from the little pavilion place just out of spawn, which is way too far away to be fair. Plus there's that barbed wire which prevents you from being able to shoot rockets back or whatever. And then they can snipe from the middle directly into your spawn. Yes B is covered, but demospam from outside the building will clear the point pretty much all the time, hence why you have to fight past the point to get a cap.
The whole map is just too big, it could work if it were scaled down somewhat.
Also, thanks butterfly, that's pretty much exactly the level of intelligent response I expect from people here.
And Desert Fortress is a fine map, it's just that we were on the steamrolled side so the perception gets skewed. Of course you're fucked if the enemy has a sniper that's significantly better than yours, because then your heavy (aka the scout-killer) is walking fodder whenever he dares go into the open. But you could say the same about a lot of maps.
Oh, and on the vaguely related topic of snipers, Mach 4 is way too sniper centric. Could do with an additional exit topside to stop funneling.
Still don't like Corporation though. But that's maybe because I'm not a fan of Dustbowl.
But I'm glad you're thinking of the same map, at least.
For some reason I can't get it to stay off.
Hopefully I'll have that fixed. Anyway, I'll be fixing that later, for now, watch this (while I upload my 2 test vids from testing the software):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Gyx5f526I2I&feature=related
http://www.wegame.com/watch/Testing_Software_on_TF2_Part_2/
And I don't know why they changed 2-2 in corporation. It's much harder to attack now that there's the tiny doors next to the walls. The old design of that cap seemed fine.
The distance is too far. This is a twitch arcade game, not BF2. Nobody enjoys getting one shot from somebody so far away they can barely be seen. Especially not when it covers your spawn exit.
Play any Valve map, you will not find sniping lengths that large at any significant part of the map.
And exiting via your capture point to the lower corridor I keep talking about will not put you in his sights if he's standing there.
Here is one ss. It might not work at first because of stupidness.
Going for the facestomp while staring suspiciously.
Clearly you've never played Badlands.
The approach to cp 2 is long, yes. But the cap point is 90% shielded by a wall from both attacking directions, and the raised platform is also 90% walled off, which prevents any super sniping from both the attackers and the defenders. You can snipe from there, but not to any greater extent than the smaller areas that comprise most of the game.
If I were to describe TF2 (official) maps in one word it would be : medium.
Almost everything map-wise is medium in this game. You can't have small areas because demo spam and pyros would ruin it, you can't have large areas because snipers and scouts would ruin it. And when Valve do use large/small areas, they are not in the most significant part of the map, and they (large areas) are well covered. You'll notice that the few parts of the official maps that people complain about are the large bits (the long corridor between points on Hydro, DB 6 etc.) or small bits (the intersection between DB 5 and 6 etc.).
Sure, from the exit to point B from C on gravelpit, a sniper has a very long range down to the fence at the other end. It's also pretty insignificant, and it's a narrow sight due to the large building that houses the B point itself, providing plenty of cover for 70% of the area as well as multiple paths to that platform (especially going through A). Custom maps are falling down because these sorts of areas are appearing in critical locations.
Regardless, nobody is saying you can't play on and enjoy these maps. But for me their shortcomings are too obvious and throw off class balance to too high a degree to be enjoyed. I'm going to bed.
Shogun Streams Vidya
So, a perfect port from the TFC version. Gotcha.
That *is* what the map-pack is for.
...which was never a problem tonight, since the only votes that ever came up were ones I called for at the end near the end of a map, to let people choose where to go next.
Funny, I never saw anything that was ban-worthy...
...other than this, of course.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
Shogun Streams Vidya
I'm making one that will be better than EVERYTHING.
I looked at the listing and realized that it didn't have everything (it didn't have cp_aqua, which was the map on rotation when i was joining) so I'm just downloading it as they come
...Did you get the one from the OP, or my sig?
The OP one's out-dated, and I need to get whoever did it to change the link.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
It seems to be vidcapping well, the sound recording is actually pretty awesome. I hope you work the kinks out.
You can see my sweet medic butt running around there too! Screaming about various spies and scouts, hoping to reach uber before a final death.
Mad medic to patient love over here!
Final Fantasy XI -> Carbuncle - Samash
I haven't played it in a while so I'm not sure if its been updated, but I remember some of the points were much easier to defend than others. Cactus, I think, was the easiest.
I liked Desert Fortress. Didn't hurt that I was on Red, but I think I would have liked it anyway. But I also like playing scout, so go figure.
edit: hrm...
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
lol!
I took a pic of that too.
Good kill!
you were pretty swell
Xbox : gunst4r
It was nice to see you play a class that requires more than clicking the mouse. I was surprised I was able to do as well against you as I did. I can't wait to get a new computer.
Shogun Streams Vidya
and please do not oversimplify like that, otherwise i could just say that pyro requires less skill because technically your finger shouldn't leave mouse button 1
Man if there was more to it than firing a rocket at your feet I would.
Shogun Streams Vidya
I made a Penny Arcade TF2 group on Facebook for some reason
here it is
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=15052000739
I use the shotgun a lot too when pyroing.
*rolling of eyes*
request sent
im tyler
pssh. i don't want my friends to know what i do with my time!