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Skepticism and alternative medicine

2

Posts

  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    JebusUD wrote: »
    muninn wrote: »
    If I remember correctly, pain gates can relay only one signal at a time, which isnt selected based on its intensity. So stimulation of those gates with a low yield stimulus will prevent more painful signal from getting through. I might have notched since on this, but its the gist of it is there.

    That does not sound right. If I stick a needle in your arm and then stab you with a knife in your arm you wont just feel the needle pain.

    As for homeopathy, I remember hearing somthing about it on the radio. They were saying that you had to add kinetic energy to the herbs for them to work. So you put them in a bag and WHAM, WHAM, whack it against the table. The crazy thing is it made a perverse kind of sense. It had jack to do with kinetic energy, but in some herbs the breakdown of celular walls would be vital to the effectiveness of whatever is in it.

    But it is bull. Superstition and made up mechanisms for how things work.

    That's not that insane if you're talking about stimulation of single nerves or small clusters of nerves. It wouldn't make sense to say "if I stimulate this nerve lightly, no pain at all in your arm", but it does make a bit of sense to say "if I stimulate this nerve lightly, it should numb a small area to any greater pain because it's integral to pain transmission in a small area".

    But again, test test test. Even if it does have a decent effect, that's no reason not to figure out why. As in your example of the "kinetic energy" thwacking.

    durandal4532 on
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  • EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Evander wrote: »
    Positive: Hey, you're saved! Yay for modern medicine. You went under, you woke up with a scar, and suddenly you don't get shooting pains in your chest from walking. That's probably going to make you a bit happier as a person. Maybe make you re-evaluate life and such.

    Organ transplant recovery isn't painless. Just because your life has been saved doesn't mean that you aren't being put through a lot pre and post surgery.

    That's true, but I'm just covering that you could conceivably have a positive affect change.

    I can't imagine every personality change after surgery is negative, but then I'm not at all well-read or well-anecdoted about surgical recovery.

    All I can go by is personal experience, but I just went through a relatively minor surgery about a month ago (had my knee scoped and a meniscus removed) and I am still dealing with pain and rehab and such. I can't imagine that there would be much positive physical feeling after a transplant. Not that it is impossible, but let's not over look the fact that your body doesn't like it when you sliceit open (or even poke holes in it, i my case) and then move shit around.

    Evander on
  • EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    edited April 2008
    Marathon wrote: »
    Don't forget Homeopathic Suicide.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bg1mSo7JQM

    Ah yes, homeopathy. That would have been the first entry in that skepticism thread I was thinking about making. :P

    Echo on
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited April 2008
    Octoparrot wrote: »
    How about for a Control group in Acupuncture, you just hire some uneducated guy to wear a white smock and stick needles into the patients, since it'll be pretty small chance he stumbles onto the right meridian.

    I was actually wondering about this. I assume the idea behind acupuncture is that you need to poke people in certain spots rather than just jabbing them at random, yes? So couldn't the control group involve people stabbed in non-treatment locations, or something?

    As to me, I'm not a medicine skeptic, or anything, but I dislike taking medicine. I'd rather have a minor headache than pop some ibuprofen (though I'll happily take some if the headache gets worse). I won't use sleeping pills of any sort unless I become really exhausted and desperate after weeks of too little sleep. I won't use bandaids for small wounds that clot on their own, and fuck neosporin (though I make sure to wash and sterilize wounds right-quick).

    I don't know if there's any scientific basis for it - there probably isn't - but I don't like feeling that I'm dependent on a bunch of drugs. Like I'm robbing my body of the ability to cope on its own. I have no problem with major and necessary medications - antibiotics, shit like that where the choice is between medication and serious issues. But I hate taking drugs for what I view as a matter of convenience.

    ElJeffe on
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  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Marathon wrote: »
    Don't forget Homeopathic Suicide.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bg1mSo7JQM

    bad accent and bad recording, so I can't really understand what he's saying. What's the gist of it?

    DanHibiki on
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Evander wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Positive: Hey, you're saved! Yay for modern medicine. You went under, you woke up with a scar, and suddenly you don't get shooting pains in your chest from walking. That's probably going to make you a bit happier as a person. Maybe make you re-evaluate life and such.

    Organ transplant recovery isn't painless. Just because your life has been saved doesn't mean that you aren't being put through a lot pre and post surgery.

    That's true, but I'm just covering that you could conceivably have a positive affect change.

    I can't imagine every personality change after surgery is negative, but then I'm not at all well-read or well-anecdoted about surgical recovery.

    All I can go by is personal experience, but I just went through a relatively minor surgery about a month ago (had my knee scoped and a meniscus removed) and I am still dealing with pain and rehab and such. I can't imagine that there would be much positive physical feeling after a transplant. Not that it is impossible, but let's not over look the fact that your body doesn't like it when you sliceit open (or even poke holes in it, i my case) and then move shit around.
    Ah, okay. Good point, another influence on personality. What is your reaction to prolonged pain? A nice person in constant pain might be a bit more easily riled than normal, even if they're happy to be alive.

    durandal4532 on
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  • EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    edited April 2008
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    bad accent and bad recording, so I can't really understand what he's saying. What's the gist of it?

    You know how homeopathy works? Or doesn't work, rather? The theory is that a diluted mixture of the thing that causes an illness can cure the illness.

    Belladonna is pretty damn lethal. Take one drop distilled belladonna extract, add one liter of water, mix properly.

    Take one drop from that liter, add a liter of fresh water, mix again.

    According to homeopathy each dilution makes it more potent. The guy in the video took homeopathic belladonna diluted like this 200 times. According to homeopathy supporters, he should drop dead due to the increased potency.

    Mathematically, something diluted that much doesn't contain a single molecule of the original drop of poison. Which he proves by drinking it.

    Echo on
  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Don't forget Homeopathic Suicide.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bg1mSo7JQM

    bad accent and bad recording, so I can't really understand what he's saying. What's the gist of it?

    Well the idea behind homeopathy is that you can begin with a solution of water and medicine and just dilute your sample over and over until their is effectively no medicine left but it will still work because of the resonant properties of water or something.

    So, in an attempt to show them how dumb of an idea that is this guy in the video begins with a solution of something lethal and dilutes it according to homeopathic procedures, drinks it, and is perfectly fine.

    Edit: I had no idea that they think it makes it more potent too...holy shit, how do people believe this nonsense.

    Marathon on
  • EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    edited April 2008
    Three potency scales are in regular use in homeopathy. Hahnemann created the centesimal or "C scale", diluting a substance by a factor of 100 at each stage. The centesimal scale was favored by Hahnemann for most of his life. A 2C dilution requires a substance to be diluted to one part in one hundred, and then some of that diluted solution is diluted by a further factor of one hundred. This works out to one part of the original solution mixed into 9,999 parts (100 × 100 −1 ) of the diluent. A 6C dilution repeats this process six times, ending up with the original material diluted by a factor of 1,000,000,000,000. (100 × 100 × 100 × 100 × 100 × 100, or 1006). Higher dilutions follow the same pattern. In homeopathy, a solution that is more dilute is described as having a higher potency. Higher potencies (that is, more dilute substances) are considered by homeopaths to be stronger and deeper-acting remedies.

    Was that a 200C dilution he drank? :P

    Echo on
  • EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Evander wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Positive: Hey, you're saved! Yay for modern medicine. You went under, you woke up with a scar, and suddenly you don't get shooting pains in your chest from walking. That's probably going to make you a bit happier as a person. Maybe make you re-evaluate life and such.

    Organ transplant recovery isn't painless. Just because your life has been saved doesn't mean that you aren't being put through a lot pre and post surgery.

    That's true, but I'm just covering that you could conceivably have a positive affect change.

    I can't imagine every personality change after surgery is negative, but then I'm not at all well-read or well-anecdoted about surgical recovery.

    All I can go by is personal experience, but I just went through a relatively minor surgery about a month ago (had my knee scoped and a meniscus removed) and I am still dealing with pain and rehab and such. I can't imagine that there would be much positive physical feeling after a transplant. Not that it is impossible, but let's not over look the fact that your body doesn't like it when you sliceit open (or even poke holes in it, i my case) and then move shit around.
    Ah, okay. Good point, another influence on personality. What is your reaction to prolonged pain? A nice person in constant pain might be a bit more easily riled than normal, even if they're happy to be alive.

    I've got a pretty high pain threshold, personally, but the soreness, and the set backs (I did a lot of walking last week, and now I'm back to using a cane, which I had previously moved away from) definitely get to me. I don't imagine that any of this will have a permenant effect on my personality for the rest of my life, but like I said, this was relatively minor, compaired to an organ transplant. If I want my pain to stop, I can just sit down.

    Evander on
  • nuclearalchemistnuclearalchemist Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I don't necessarily agree with homeopathy, but I have seen acupuncture used effectively in several situations for members of my family. I am willing to concede that they were possibly the placebo effect and psychosomatic in some way, but on the other hand they might not be. Much research has been done on the placebo effect, as well as research on things like meditation, acupuncture, etc.

    Something interesting is that the homeopathy might do something if the poison is not entirely diluted; take the effects of being bitten by a black widow spider. It won't kill a healthy adult or come close (although you may wish you would die), but due to the breakdown of the poison in the body, when the patient recovers they get a HUGE boost in what they feel as energy to do things. The body could respond in the same way.

    nuclearalchemist on
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  • DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Echo wrote: »
    Three potency scales are in regular use in homeopathy. Hahnemann created the centesimal or "C scale", diluting a substance by a factor of 100 at each stage. The centesimal scale was favored by Hahnemann for most of his life. A 2C dilution requires a substance to be diluted to one part in one hundred, and then some of that diluted solution is diluted by a further factor of one hundred. This works out to one part of the original solution mixed into 9,999 parts (100 × 100 −1 ) of the diluent. A 6C dilution repeats this process six times, ending up with the original material diluted by a factor of 1,000,000,000,000. (100 × 100 × 100 × 100 × 100 × 100, or 1006). Higher dilutions follow the same pattern. In homeopathy, a solution that is more dilute is described as having a higher potency. Higher potencies (that is, more dilute substances) are considered by homeopaths to be stronger and deeper-acting remedies.

    Was that a 200C dilution he drank? :P

    Well, not "drank": they were tiny pills, which he in one scene at a handful of at a time.

    And yes, they were diluted 1:10^400. A "potency" that "high", apparently, causes acute sarcasm and advanced stages of Smart-Ass syndrome.

    For reference, anyone in high school chemistry probably learned (and later promptly forgot) that for n grams of a molecule with atomic mass n, there are 6.02 x 10^23 molecules in those n grams.

    Daedalus on
  • DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Something interesting is that the homeopathy might do something if the poison is not entirely diluted; take the effects of being bitten by a black widow spider. It won't kill a healthy adult or come close (although you may wish you would die), but due to the breakdown of the poison in the body, when the patient recovers they get a HUGE boost in what they feel as energy to do things. The body could respond in the same way.

    The problem with that is that homeopathic remedies are usually diluted so much that it is statistically unlikely that even a single molecule of the original substance is in the [strike]placebo[/strike] remedy that you're purchasing.

    Daedalus on
  • muninnmuninn Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    JebusUD wrote: »
    muninn wrote: »
    If I remember correctly, pain gates can relay only one signal at a time, which isnt selected based on its intensity. So stimulation of those gates with a low yield stimulus will prevent more painful signal from getting through. I might have notched since on this, but its the gist of it is there.

    That does not sound right. If I stick a needle in your arm and then stab you with a knife in your arm you wont just feel the needle pain.

    Pain gates control very specific areas of your body, so sticking a needle and then stabbing yourself wont work. If you look like a human porcupine, then supposedly that supposed stab wound wouldnt be as painful.

    muninn on
  • JebusUDJebusUD Adventure! Candy IslandRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    muninn wrote: »
    JebusUD wrote: »
    muninn wrote: »
    If I remember correctly, pain gates can relay only one signal at a time, which isnt selected based on its intensity. So stimulation of those gates with a low yield stimulus will prevent more painful signal from getting through. I might have notched since on this, but its the gist of it is there.

    That does not sound right. If I stick a needle in your arm and then stab you with a knife in your arm you wont just feel the needle pain.

    Pain gates control very specific areas of your body, so sticking a needle and then stabbing yourself wont work. If you look like a human porcupine, then supposedly that supposed stab wound wouldnt be as painful.

    By what mechanism?

    JebusUD on
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  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I have never heard of "pain gates" in any anatomy class. However I have heard of pain receptors, but those don't have gates.

    Marathon on
  • muninnmuninn Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Marathon wrote: »
    I have never heard of "pain gates" in any anatomy class. However I have heard of pain receptors, but those don't have gates.

    I have head this topic discussed back in my biology class, but it has been ages. I might have over-simplified things. Here is an overview of the mechanism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_control_theory_of_pain

    muninn on
  • MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Octoparrot wrote: »
    How about for a Control group in Acupuncture, you just hire some uneducated guy to wear a white smock and stick needles into the patients, since it'll be pretty small chance he stumbles onto the right meridian.

    I was actually wondering about this. I assume the idea behind acupuncture is that you need to poke people in certain spots rather than just jabbing them at random, yes? So couldn't the control group involve people stabbed in non-treatment locations, or something?

    As to me, I'm not a medicine skeptic, or anything, but I dislike taking medicine. I'd rather have a minor headache than pop some ibuprofen (though I'll happily take some if the headache gets worse). I won't use sleeping pills of any sort unless I become really exhausted and desperate after weeks of too little sleep. I won't use bandaids for small wounds that clot on their own, and fuck neosporin (though I make sure to wash and sterilize wounds right-quick).

    I don't know if there's any scientific basis for it - there probably isn't - but I don't like feeling that I'm dependent on a bunch of drugs. Like I'm robbing my body of the ability to cope on its own. I have no problem with major and necessary medications - antibiotics, shit like that where the choice is between medication and serious issues. But I hate taking drugs for what I view as a matter of convenience.

    Well there are some good reasons for some of your choices. Doesn't ibuprofen/aspirin really hurt your stomach lining if you take it a lot? I'm scared of sleeping pills too because they can be habit-forming.

    But it's pretty silly to refuse to bandage yourself :P. Even if you do scab over a bandaid prevents that scab from getting ripped off, no?

    The danger with this line of thought is that it's pretty easily extrapolated to "no med'cine for me, I'm a tough guy" or "I don't need to see a doctor until I'm pretty much dying" attitudes in people that are less reasonable and less smart than you are, Jeffe.

    I also take issue with people that hate doctors and think they are out to steal your money, or whatever, but that's probably because I know a lot of doctors.

    Medopine on
  • themightypuckthemightypuck MontanaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    As far as pain meds go, if it hurts enough for me to want to take an aspirin or ibuprofen, the aspirin or ibuprofen isn't going to be enough. I've never had acupuncture but I know a guy who said it got him through wisdom teeth removal. Either he's one tough dude or acupuncture worked for him. You can have all the studies in the world telling me that diet doesn't help with cholesterol but my cholesterol went from 250 to under 200 due to me changing my diet. The fact is that some unproven therapies are unproven because there are technical and financial hurdles associated with proving them. If those therapies don't seem to have downside risk--like Loren Cordain or Barry Sears' diet recommendations--then I see no problem with being your own guinea pig. Whether the recommendations (or almost any diet advice) will do you any good won't be proven in a meaningful study in your lifetime so you might actually benefit by going against the conventional wisdom. On the other hand, if you have a serious medical condition where the alternative is proven medicine or breatharianism you should probably go with the proven medicine.

    themightypuck on
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  • themightypuckthemightypuck MontanaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    I'm scared of sleeping pills too because they can be habit-forming.

    And well you should be. I suffer from anxiety disorder so I have a scrip for xanax. Now I have a really hard time sleeping without it. I'm probably addicted to it and will need to get help to wean myself off the stuff. The worst part is I'm addicted to a drug the effects of which I sleep through.

    themightypuck on
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  • OctoparrotOctoparrot Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Ahhh Breatharians and crazy old Wiley Brooks. One of those good souls whose bullshit is so deep you need a life vest. Why can't all quacks be as transparent?

    Octoparrot on
  • MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    I'm scared of sleeping pills too because they can be habit-forming.

    And well you should be. I suffer from anxiety disorder so I have a scrip for xanax. Now I have a really hard time sleeping without it. I'm probably addicted to it and will need to get help to wean myself off the stuff. The worst part is I'm addicted to a drug the effects of which I sleep through.

    My ex had that same problem. Then he threw out his back and subsequently became addicted to narcotic painkillers. How did he quit them? He and his dad went camping for five days. Cold turkey. D:

    Medopine on
  • EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    edited April 2008
    I had to use propavan for a few days when I had severe trouble falling asleep. It worked for a few nights, but then I had a scary episode where I could feel my body get all sluggish and slow as if it was falling asleep, but my mind went on as normal. Almost gave me a full-blown panic attack. Having your body act as if it's slowly getting paralyzed = scary shit.

    Echo on
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited April 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    But it's pretty silly to refuse to bandage yourself :P. Even if you do scab over a bandaid prevents that scab from getting ripped off, no?

    Well, I use a bandage if I think there will be a tangible benefit. But most people I know have a policy whereby if they see blood, they get a bandaid.
    The danger with this line of thought is that it's pretty easily extrapolated to "no med'cine for me, I'm a tough guy" or "I don't need to see a doctor until I'm pretty much dying" attitudes in people that are less reasonable and less smart than you are, Jeffe.

    I eschew doctors more because of the hassle. I don't want to burn half a day fucking around with the doctor's office unless I'm know for certain it's something I can't solve myself. I'm realistic about it, and I know what sort of symptoms I shouldn't fuck around with, but damned if I'm going to go to the doctor because I have a headache or a bad cold.

    ElJeffe on
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  • MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Medopine wrote: »
    But it's pretty silly to refuse to bandage yourself :P. Even if you do scab over a bandaid prevents that scab from getting ripped off, no?

    Well, I use a bandage if I think there will be a tangible benefit. But most people I know have a policy whereby if they see blood, they get a bandaid.
    The danger with this line of thought is that it's pretty easily extrapolated to "no med'cine for me, I'm a tough guy" or "I don't need to see a doctor until I'm pretty much dying" attitudes in people that are less reasonable and less smart than you are, Jeffe.

    I eschew doctors more because of the hassle. I don't want to burn half a day fucking around with the doctor's office unless I'm know for certain it's something I can't solve myself. I'm realistic about it, and I know what sort of symptoms I shouldn't fuck around with, but damned if I'm going to go to the doctor because I have a headache or a bad cold.

    Yeah, and that's better for the system too. Except for things like yearly checkups and stuff, doctors don't want to see people with colds that are going to go away on their own in a week.

    Medopine on
  • EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    edited April 2008
    Getting back to homeopathy: this pisses me off. That shit has been peddled as a remedy for 65 years. :x

    Echo on
  • Curly_BraceCurly_Brace Robot Girl Mimiga VillageRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Echo wrote: »
    Getting back to homeopathy: this pisses me off. That shit has been peddled as a remedy for 65 years. :x

    It should be criminal to sell such a product. People die because they refuse to see a "fat cat doctor" and insist on taking essentially distilled water and herbs.

    I'm all for skepticism mind you, but users and purveyors of alternative medicine aren't skeptics. They are rapidly in favor of their views on disease and health. You can't talk rationally with them. They're as bad or worse than conspiracy theorists and Flat Earth folks.

    Now don't get me wrong. I'm all for things like massage and herbs to help reduce stress and maybe ease a few aches and pains. They're proven to be effective, and at worst they do no harm. But when someone starts to treat their child with nothing but homeopathy, crystals, prayer, and/or "alternatives to vaccines" then I say they are endangering the life of their child and aren't fit to be parents.

    Curly_Brace on
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited April 2008
    Echo wrote: »
    Getting back to homeopathy: this pisses me off. That shit has been peddled as a remedy for 65 years. :x

    It should be criminal to sell such a product. People die because they refuse to see a "fat cat doctor" and insist on taking essentially distilled water and nothing else at all.

    Fixed. There's not even any goddamned herb left.

    ElJeffe on
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  • Rabid_LlamaRabid_Llama Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I have a friend that has lime disease, which as you all know, has no cure.

    Her family decided they would go to some wacky pseudo-doctor who said he could cure it with lasers and some other ridiculous shit. Naturally, I was very much opposed to this and gave her all sorts of shit about going to the witchdoctor. She was reluctant, but went and did the treatment anyway.

    Apparently, it worked.

    Rabid_Llama on
    /sig
    The+Rabid+Llama.png
  • themightypuckthemightypuck MontanaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    Medopine wrote: »
    I'm scared of sleeping pills too because they can be habit-forming.

    And well you should be. I suffer from anxiety disorder so I have a scrip for xanax. Now I have a really hard time sleeping without it. I'm probably addicted to it and will need to get help to wean myself off the stuff. The worst part is I'm addicted to a drug the effects of which I sleep through.

    My ex had that same problem. Then he threw out his back and subsequently became addicted to narcotic painkillers. How did he quit them? He and his dad went camping for five days. Cold turkey. D:

    I used crazy amounts of painkillers for recreation a few years back but didn't really have a hard time stopping. Maybe 2 days of flu like symptoms. My doc told me not to cold turkey the xanax though. Apparently it can cause seizures so you need to just slowly drop your dose down over time.

    themightypuck on
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  • MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2008
    Relief of symptoms =/= cure of disease

    Medopine on
  • Curly_BraceCurly_Brace Robot Girl Mimiga VillageRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Echo wrote: »
    Getting back to homeopathy: this pisses me off. That shit has been peddled as a remedy for 65 years. :x

    It should be criminal to sell such a product. People die because they refuse to see a "fat cat doctor" and insist on taking essentially distilled water and nothing else at all.

    Fixed. There's not even any goddamned herb left.

    I was referring to people who chew ginger root for everything, refuse to take anti-biotics when sicks and instead drink some herbal teas. Homeopathy isn't the only kind of dumb pseudo-science "medicine" out there.

    Curly_Brace on
  • Rabid_LlamaRabid_Llama Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    Relief of symptoms =/= cure of disease

    Is this directed to me? If so, it wasn't just a relief of symptoms.

    Rabid_Llama on
    /sig
    The+Rabid+Llama.png
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    Relief of symptoms =/= cure of disease

    Is this directed to me? If so, it wasn't just a relief of symptoms.
    For one thing, Lyme disease isn't actually incurable at all. It can be difficult to treat if you find out about it late, but it's cured by antibiotics in most cases.

    And I dunno, I mean, it doesn't actually matter if your friend was saved by magic or not. So long as magic has a success rate of 1 anecdote/100,000 people, and medicine has a higher one, I'm going with medicine for most anything wrong with me.

    If you have a disease that's got no cure or treatment whatsoever, go wild. Nothing says Neptune won't take pity on you if toss a bull in the sea, it just shouldn't be done first or instead of seeing a doctor.

    Edit: And also, leading cause of persistent insomnia: sleeping pills.

    Use them once in a while, if you really must. But don't take them days or weeks in a row.

    durandal4532 on
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  • Rabid_LlamaRabid_Llama Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    Relief of symptoms =/= cure of disease

    Is this directed to me? If so, it wasn't just a relief of symptoms.
    For one thing, Lyme disease isn't actually incurable at all. It can be difficult to treat if you find out about it late, but it's cured by antibiotics in most cases.

    And I dunno, I mean, it doesn't actually matter if your friend was saved by magic or not. So long as magic has a success rate of 1 anecdote/100,000 people, and medicine has a higher one, I'm going with medicine for most anything wrong with me.

    If you have a disease that's got no cure or treatment whatsoever, go wild. Nothing says Neptune won't take pity on you if toss a bull in the sea, it just shouldn't be done first or instead of seeing a doctor.

    Edit: And also, leading cause of persistent insomnia: sleeping pills.

    Use them once in a while, if you really must. But don't take them days or weeks in a row.

    Hey, I am as skeptical about it as anyone. You should have seen my face when she told me. I don't know much about the disease itself but I know she and her sister have had it since birth and have tried everything to get rid of it. Conventional medicine didn't work, but apparently the alternative stuff did.

    I am not making any claims about the scientific validity of the method, I am just saying that someone I know did it and now the disease is pretty much gone. I am in no way saying that it works better than going to a real doctor every time. How you even gathered that from what I posted, I have no idea.

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  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    Relief of symptoms =/= cure of disease

    Is this directed to me? If so, it wasn't just a relief of symptoms.
    For one thing, Lyme disease isn't actually incurable at all. It can be difficult to treat if you find out about it late, but it's cured by antibiotics in most cases.

    And I dunno, I mean, it doesn't actually matter if your friend was saved by magic or not. So long as magic has a success rate of 1 anecdote/100,000 people, and medicine has a higher one, I'm going with medicine for most anything wrong with me.

    If you have a disease that's got no cure or treatment whatsoever, go wild. Nothing says Neptune won't take pity on you if toss a bull in the sea, it just shouldn't be done first or instead of seeing a doctor.

    Edit: And also, leading cause of persistent insomnia: sleeping pills.

    Use them once in a while, if you really must. But don't take them days or weeks in a row.

    Hey, I am as skeptical about it as anyone. You should have seen my face when she told me. I don't know much about the disease itself but I know she and her sister have had it since birth and have tried everything to get rid of it. Conventional medicine didn't work, but apparently the alternative stuff did.

    I am not making any claims about the scientific validity of the method, I am just saying that someone I know did it and now the disease is pretty much gone. I am in no way saying that it works better than going to a real doctor every time. How you even gathered that from what I posted, I have no idea.
    That was more a general admonition than a specific response.

    The specific bit was that Lyme Disease being completely curable with antibiotics and routinely treatable even when not caught early makes it less impressive that someone cured someone else of it.

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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Lyme isn't incurable but it has a tendency to come back again and again.

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  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Lyme isn't incurable but it has a tendency to come back again and again.
    That's true. Actually (admittedly I looked this up on wikipedia so grain of salt and all that) it seems like there's debate over how to treat it. The standard treatment was a brief run of antibiotics, but some people are suggesting that it's necessary to do more of them over a longer period to actually eradicate the disease instead of just put it in remission until it pops up again.

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  • RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Studies show that sham acupuncture, or just sticking needles in random places in the body, is just as effective as actual acupuncture. So there's no meridan or chi garbage involved. Or even nerve targeting. Unfortunately as mentioned earlier, it would be extremely difficult to do a real test to determine if the pain reduction accomplished by sticking a bunch of needles in you is due to the placebo effect or not. In any event I don't want to be paying a "trained" acupuncture person a lot of money to do a job any schmo could accomplish.

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  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Quackwatch is the best kind of watch.

    Also, amusingly many homeopathic remedies have instructions like "Take one for mild pain. Take two if severe."

    Lulz.

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