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Requiring ID cards to vote [split]
AngelHedgie
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Imagine you're 84 years old. You don't drive, and hardly leave the house- except for doctor's appointments, and once-a-month-or-so outings with your family. You don't really even remember the last time you saw an ID.
Or- you've got a low income. You ride the bus to and from work, maybe 2 jobs. You make time to go and do your civic duty and vote. Only now- you've got to make MORE time to go and get proper ID.
Now, do you see how it's a bit of a hardship on you?
You have to set aside 4-6 hours sometime in the next two years (or, in this case, seven months)? And this generally only has to be done once per decade or so (varies state to state, obviously...more like fourty years in Arizona, for instance).
No, I don't consider this a "hardship" on somebody working two jobs. Not in any reasonable sense of the word.
For the 84-year-old woman, maybe a bit more so. Still not an unreasonable burden, though personally I'd probably agree that some responsibility should be placed on the state to find a way to get such people to and from the DMV once a decade so they can keep a current ID. Some sort of shuttle service, or something.
I'm sorry, but anybody under 80 who is complaining about having to maintain a current ID (or go to the courthouse after voting) is a whiny little bitch in my book. Go into the corner and have yourself a good cry.
Yes, because it's so easy for someone who works several jobs to make ends meet to get the time together to go get their ID. Remember, the DMV is not like McDonald's - they're not open 24/7. You're asking this person to take off a day, most likely unpaid, to go get their ID. For the poor, this is not some minor inconvenience you're asking - you're asking them to take a sizable hit in wages, if not outright endanger their job security.
Secondly, the poor, the elderly, and minorities are the groups most likely to have an incomplete or even nonexistent paper trail proving their citizenship. This makes getting an ID for these folks even harder. And that's not counting the unholy mess that is REAL ID.
So in reality, there are in fact several reasons why asking them to get an ID is, in fact, a real and substantial hardship. And the fact that we're asking them to endure such hardship to deal with a bullshit problem makes it all the more unconscionable.
EDIT: Also, all of these are good arguments for why you might not like the law, which I understand. As I said, I actually wouldn't support this law in my own state. However, what they aren't is arguments as to why it's unconstitutional. If you're voting for Obama so he'll nominate judges that would have ruled otherwise, that's the kind of thing that will make me take a long hard look at my own support of him.
I take it you've never heard of the Twenty-Fourth Amendment. And while this law may not quite violate the letter of that law, you can be damn certain that it's got the spirit bent over without any lube.
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AngelHedgie on
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There is a bit of technocrat in me. If it was up to me people would have to pass a 20 question multiple choice test on the candidates and the issues before they could vote on a national election.
Yes. It's not always a matter of not wanting to go out of your way. Some people just like to put off the things they feel they can put off.
That's not really the case with voting, though. You have that one day to vote, and that's it.
Also, there are groups dedicated just to getting people to vote. Coupled with the encouragement of friends and family, and I think these people could very well choose to vote despite not being the sort to get photo id.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
More to the point, I'd think "People who put off dentist visits" covers something approaching 90% of the country. Procrastination isn't exactly a unique flaw.
Sure there's a compelling interest. And the current system is meeting that interest quite nicely. As I've continually pointed out, voter fraud is not the problem that it is made out to be, and the US Attorney firings proved that clearly when several of the dismissed individuals were dismissed because they refused to open voter fraud investigations because - surprise - there was no evidence of voter fraud! And again, I'm going to point to the 24th Amendment - while the letter prohibits poll taxes, the spirit was to dismantle systems that disenfranchise certain groups disproportionately.
The DMV is open Saturdays.
You can also schedule an appointment if you do so weeks in advance, which means that your trip will take roughly an hour at most.
I mean, I hate the DMV and all, but it's not necessarily an all-day ordeal on a work-day unless you want it to be.
mcdermott, it's like this:
Requiring ID is not unreasonable to the extent it fulfills a compelling state interest that is currently not being fulfilled. That latter part is not the case, though. It's not a huge deal to require everyone to wear jeans to the polling place, either. I mean, shit, everyone has a pair of jeans, and if you don't you can pick up a pair at Goodwill for a couple bucks. It's still an unconstitutional burden, though, by virtue of not fulfilling a compelling state interest. Jeans are not required for democracy to work, and neither are ID cards.
MA is a special kind of hell. Our DMVs are open 8:30am-5:00pm mon-friday, and until 7pm on thursdays.
No, I'm not kidding, it's fucking stupid.
First, the working poor work 7 days a week. Which is a major problem, but that's another thread. The issue is that their usual working hours don't provide an easy way for the working poor to get there. Second, I see you ignored the issue of proving the right to vote, which ends up being the bigger mess for many in the groups listed.
Kind of like banking hours. The hours people most need them to be open, are the hours they are not. And the hours that they are open, most people are working.
The hypothetical poverty-drone who works 12 hours a day, 7 days a week isn't going to be able to afford taking the time to vote, anyway, so what's it matter?
Oh, they can afford to take off half a day and vote? Then they can afford the extra hour to go to the DMV.
As to the bit I "ignored", I'm arguing against providing ID, as evidenced here:
...which is in the same post to which you replied. All I'm saying is that you're making out hitting the DMV as being slightly more Herculean than it actually is.
We're talking about the folks with disadvantages trying to vote, right?
80 year old grandmothers who can barely remember to take their medication every other day and require the doctor's secretary to call them on 3 separate occasions prior to any visit so as to make sure they don't forget? I work at a research center with some emphasis on the elderly, and let me assure you, organization does not come easy for a lot of them.
So you're looking for them to realize they're going to have problems voting, then decide they're going to fight this rather than just sitting idly. Then you want them to get the number for the DMV, independently schedule an appointment, and remember to find a ride and go to it in a few weeks. This, from the same people who forget the medication that's in a little tin on their kitchen table?
I'm thrilled you have the mental capacity, organizational skills, and energy to go through with this sort of ordeal, but it's not that feasible for a good chunk of the population.
Similar problem with the working poor scheduling days off work and scheduling appointments so they can juggle the appointment somewhere in their day and somehow still have ends meet at the end of the month. Oh sure, if they just organize it really well and time it really well and think it out beforehand it's quite doable. However, in a lot of instances, if they had that kind of organized go-getter attitude they wouldn't be in the working poor to begin with.
I dunno man, it's easy to take an attitude that anything you can do is something every one else should be doing too, especially when it's something mental because it's more difficult to acknowledge and accept mental limitations as anything but laziness or unworthiness, but these people should be able to vote, and this puts a fairly large burden on their ability to do so, even if it wouldn't be that large of a burden for you.
I'm not saying I'm proposing some sort of communist world where mental effort shouldn't count for anything. You're smart and good with common sense, critical thinking and organization -- you should be making more money than most. However, the difference in pay is with a purpose, because you work harder or are a bigger-catch by society's standard. What's the purpose in setting up all sorts of hurdles right before an election other than to lower voter turnout?
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
We aren't talking Jim Crow laws here folks. I have yet to meet this person who cannot obtain an ID.
That's the point of registering to vote, which requires (in CA, at least), either an ID number or a SSN. If you can provide a valid SSN that matches your name, chances are you're legit. Proving residency at the point of voting is to verify that you're the person who registered, not really to prove the right to vote. The right to vote for that person has already been established.
More importantly, is them not voting exactly a bad thing?
Saying that it's not sure is.
Those AARP folks get fierce.
Depending on your situation it can involve a decent amount of effort. That said, everyone should have one just for general needs.
... actually come to think of it, my mother only has a picture ID in the form of her military ID. Her drivers license says Valid Without Photo.
Your privilege shows. Due to the vagaries of fate, people wind up lacking the credentials to prove their citizenship. And that happens disproportionately to the poor, the elderly, minorities, and the handicapped. The result is that these sorts of laws hit those groups even more disproportionately. Furthermore, they generate a chilling effect within those groups, further suppressing turnout. But don't take my word for it.
If you're truly concerned about the integrity of the system, there are much more pressing concerns, like the vulnerability of voting machines, or the use of caging. There is simply no evidence that voter fraud is a major issue at all, and to use it as a "justification" for a law that has a disproportionate effect on the groups in our society least able to protect themselves is reprehensible.
It can be very difficult if you don't have the right paperwork. And this does happen - births aren't filed properly, documentation is lost or destroyed, etc. And yet again, this is more likely to be the case if you are poor, old, or a minority.
Also note that many states charge for a basic photo ID. In WA, it's $20. The poor, and elderly on a fixed income, may decide that $20 is better spent on, say, food or rent than a vote that "probably won't mean much in the long term."
Not to mention at that point you start getting a lot closer to "poll tax".
- I've worked 60 hours a week at two jobs and still found time to wait in line at the DMV
- Poor people get their IDs free
- People who can't leave their beds can continue doing absentee ballots like they should be doing now
What else?
I can't find anything that says you can get one free in WA.
http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/gettingidcard.html
If you don't show it, you get a provisional, iirc. But the point is, were it to become a harsh manditory, would anyone think to make IDs free? I kinda doubt it, as disconnected as all the varied Govt. departments tend to be.
I'm pretty sure they do. Some members in Texas are strongly pushing to get voter ID provisions established(cause of all them illegal immigrants). Very quickly, the issue of hardship came up, and was addressed and the cost was estimated to be small and easily paid for, to provide free IDs for the elderly and indigent.
I'd be surprised if there was any state that did not discuss this, as you've always got your advocacy groups making noise when legislation like this arises.
Oh, and all this hubbub about having to go to the DMV may end up being largely moot, if everyone is required to go anyways because of the REAL ID act.
[edit] Linky.
From someone who's going to be working at the polls in Indiana: an ID is required to vote in next week's primary. The only requirements on the ID be that they are issued by either the U.S. or by Indiana, that they have the voter's name and picture, and that they have an expiration date on them (though you can still vote even if the ID expired in the last two years).
If one doesn't have a driver's license, military ID, Indiana state university ID, etc., you can get a voter ID card from the BMV. They are free and are valid for six years. Additionally, I was told by the head of my county's election board that the BMV is going to have additional staff on hand on primary day just for distributing IDs.
I fail to see how voting is like yelling fire in a crowded theater, which is the doctrine under which guns are restricted.
Try reading case law before talking about it.
I'm referring to the case about sawed off shotguns. The court found that other's right to safety supersedes your rights.
There have been no accounts of voter fraud that have been substantiated. In fact, the most commonly cited case could have been stopped by actually going to the alleged "empty lot," which actually housed the voters voters in an apartment complex. Beyond that, you'd have to show how voting improperly impedes on my rights more than someone trying to talk over me, which has yet to be counted as an exemption from free speech.
Friday I had Arbor day off, how bout we get rid of that pointless holiday (or some other holiday) and replace it with national voting day.
Enlist in Star Citizen! Citizenship must be earned!
I find that report a bit fishy in some aspects.
Where exactly is the correlation between states that require ID and the number of immigrants willing to become citizens?
Regarding the $: If you are going to be a state where ID is required at the polling place, getting a picture ID should be free. Maybe this could all be tied to the registration process.
Edit: Not targeting you with this AngelHedgie, but I also find it odd (this came to mind after reading mcdermott's point) that the same people that screamed 'voter fraud' in the 2000 election seem likely to be the same ones that say there is no voter fraud when taking sides on this issue. But that's politics for you. Catholics hate abortion but support the death penalty. Anti-gun folks would gladly trample the 2nd ammendment, but cry foul over the constitution every time GW does a wiretap.