I was not a fan of that storyline, but that moment was really well done.
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sportzboytjwsqueeeeeezzeeeesome more tax breaks outRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
that was the new captain britain for a time right? And she had the tragic, "You've been brought back from the dead to be a hero, but your family can NEVER KNOWWWWWWWWWWWW!" thing going on.
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
that was the new captain britain for a time right? And she had the tragic, "You've been brought back from the dead to be a hero, but your family can NEVER KNOWWWWWWWWWWWW!" thing going on.
Yeah, she gets shafted pretty hard in the deal. But she went out with style and died a hero's death.
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sportzboytjwsqueeeeeezzeeeesome more tax breaks outRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
Yea that was comic-book sad and tragic and yet awesome at all once. But I felt like a horrible person for enjoying it.
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There are a few things that I'd like to post in here, but I could only find scans for one of them on the net. If I make any mistakes, sorry, but I haven't seen these comics in a long long time.
The very first is from Secret Wars, when the X-men swoop in, all black leather and and new wave haircuts. That panel is the reason I started reading comics.
The only comic issue number I know is X-men 205 - in it Wolverine throws Katie Power out of a taxi to protect her - 'Mr Logan you're scaring me'
In Secret Wars 2 when the Beyonder attacks someone with a missile, and Iron Fist punches it! - 'This day Iron Fist goes to his death'.
In Daredevil or Punisher, when the Punisher is in prison with Bullseye and he says he's going to help Bullseye break out. Bullseye says why, the Punisher replies with 'Because you might get shot while escaping'.
Why? I have no idea what's going on there. Who's the kid? Is it a kid? Is the bad guy one of the Wrecking Crew? Why's he so book-read?
I'm not saying I'm doubting the arcs terribleness. I just need some background infos.
It's a woman. A mother of two, actually. She, her kids and a bunch of other civilians got caught between The Avengers and The Wrecking Crew. Cap was knocked unconscious and the woman basically stood between him and the wrecker, using his own shield to defend him. The wrecker beat her to death, but she kept the shield up as long as she could and saved Steve's life.
and then she was resurrected as the new captain britain
for no reason
Well to be fair she was resurrected as the new Captain Britain because she was beaten to death defending Captain America. It was the whole "no you can't tell your kids you're alive because it's against the rules" that made no sense.
no but why did there even need to be a new captain britian
I am pretty sure Brian Braddock was still around.
Oh. I thought he was out of action at the time. In Avalon or something. I mean, he and Meggan are the ones who resurrected her. I wasn't reading many titles back then, so I'm going by that story alone.
I think the Bullseye bit is from Daredevil: The Devil, Inside and Out. Which is packed full of awesome moments start to finish.
My personal favourite is when they wheel Bullseye into prison. That and Matt's reunion with Foggy towards the end.
I don't remember that happening in Devil, Inside and Out. The Punisher helps Daredevil break out but he's not that major a part of the storyline.
Also, the first issue of that arc where Foggy supposedly dies is what got me back into reading comics again after a long hiatus. It's as powerful as any death I've seen in any other medium.
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"I told you," said Ford. "Eddies in the space-time continuum."
"And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
That was pretty bad. I've heard a lot of good things about Sleeper, and have been meaning to look into it. I hope that is not an indication of the series' quality.
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
edited August 2008
that was incredibly dumb
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JohnnyCacheStarting DefensePlace at the tableRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
that would be really funny if it was just some sort of spider man parody (he's got the proportional strength and speed of . . . a gay! His gay-sense is tingling!) but I don't think it's got "serious comic" legs.
I thought she was going to gain the power to turn people gay or turn everything in the immediate vicinity into a musical or shoot rainbows from her fingers. Gay vampirism was totally out of left field.
that would be really funny if it was just some sort of spider man parody (he's got the proportional strength and speed of . . . a gay! His gay-sense is tingling!) but I don't think it's got "serious comic" legs.
A group of supervillains is sitting at a bar playing the game, Origin Story. Of course it's stupid. The entire premise is ridiculous. And frankly, almost every origin story is ridiculous beyond comprehension. That particular one is funny as Hell, especially compared to Genocide's; his is supposed to be tragic or some nonsense.
Anyway, basing an opinion on Sleeper based on those two pages is fucking idiotic.
Homosexuality being used as a punishment (the jocks) in a story that is trying to be pro-gay is kind of backwards. Maybe insulting isn't quite the word but it is certainly off-putting.
Homosexuality being used as a punishment (the jocks) in a story that is trying to be pro-gay is kind of backwards. Maybe insulting isn't quite the word but it is certainly off-putting.
I think I see what you mean. I think the mistake you're making, though, is assuming that it's homosexuality that's be used as punishment, when in reality it's just rape. Rape is never about sex or sexuality, but rather about violence and control. She's raping the boys, and she's just picking the most demeaning way possible. She feels that they have victimized her friends (and thus her by proxy) through their sexuality, and so she concludes that the way to demonstrate the most control over them is to invert that sexual force.
This is no different from prison rape.
Thus, it's not that homosexuality is presented as a punishment (any more than normal rape stories present heterosexuality as a punishment) but rather that rape is presented as a punishment.
Normally I'd be inclined to agree with you but I think, taken with the context of the story, what she did is meant to be ironic. This is an example of a writer thinking that he's being clever when really all he's doing is undermining his point.
edit: Furthermore, the very fact that she can syphon power from homosexuals and "see" a homosexual with her homo-vision also implies that there is something intrinsically different about people who are homosexuals. I'm pretty sure who you fuck has no bearing on your physical being. Last I checked homosexuals were indistinguishable from any other person. That's what makes them so terrifying.
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
edit: Furthermore, the very fact that she can syphon power from homosexuals and "see" a homosexual with her homo-vision also implies that there is something intrinsically different about people who are homosexuals. I'm pretty sure who you fuck has no bearing on your physical being. Last I checked homosexuals were indistinguishable from any other person. That's what makes them so terrifying.
Well, some studies have shown that certain portions of the brain are (on average) more similar in size in homosexuals to that of the opposite sex. Still pretty much impossible to check out any one person's brain and go "your hypothalmus is only 4 oz! QUEER!" But there is a statistical difference.
Normally I'd be inclined to agree with you but I think, taken with the context of the story, what she did is meant to be ironic. This is an example of a writer thinking that he's being clever when really all he's doing is undermining his point.
edit: Furthermore, the very fact that she can syphon power from homosexuals and "see" a homosexual with her homo-vision also implies that there is something intrinsically different about people who are homosexuals. I'm pretty sure who you fuck has no bearing on your physical being. Last I checked homosexuals were indistinguishable from any other person. That's what makes them so terrifying.
I'm not saying I definitely know what the writer was thinking, and your interpretation is potentially correct, but I still think mine is the one intended. Still, I guess we won't ever know.
As to your edit though, I must strenuously disagree: your sexuality is significantly (but not entirely) determined by your biology, not your psychology. A wide variety of studies have shown that sexuality is primarily determined by biology, and then merely focused by psychology (this is the so-called spectrum theory of sexuality, where you are born somewhere on the spectrum between pure-gay and pure-straight, and then society socializes you into a slightly different position). It's not unreasonable that her power could detect the underlying biological difference.
Alternately, you could say that she's reading their psychological sexuality the same way Green Lantern rings read psychological force of will, etc.
Normally I'd be inclined to agree with you but I think, taken with the context of the story, what she did is meant to be ironic. This is an example of a writer thinking that he's being clever when really all he's doing is undermining his point.
edit: Furthermore, the very fact that she can syphon power from homosexuals and "see" a homosexual with her homo-vision also implies that there is something intrinsically different about people who are homosexuals. I'm pretty sure who you fuck has no bearing on your physical being. Last I checked homosexuals were indistinguishable from any other person. That's what makes them so terrifying.
I'm not saying I definitely know what the writer was thinking, and your interpretation is potentially correct, but I still think mine is the one intended. Still, I guess we won't ever know.
As to your edit though, I must strenuously disagree: your sexuality is significantly (but not entirely) determined by your biology, not your psychology. A wide variety of studies have shown that sexuality is primarily determined by biology, and then merely focused by psychology (this is the so-called spectrum theory of sexuality, where you are born somewhere on the spectrum between pure-gay and pure-straight, and then society socializes you into a slightly different position). It's not unreasonable that her power could detect the underlying biological difference.
Alternately, you could say that she's reading their psychological sexuality the same way Green Lantern rings read psychological force of will, etc.
I don't know. I don't really buy in to anybody trying to empirically quantify anything like homosexuality or blackness, or asianness or whatever. It always reminds me of that Dr. Rushton fellow I had to study in my undergrad.
edit: I'm an editing machine today. To clarify, I know there are biological and, therefore, quantifiable characteristics to race. It's the extrapolation some people apply to it that drives me nuts.
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Yeah, she gets shafted pretty hard in the deal. But she went out with style and died a hero's death.
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The very first is from Secret Wars, when the X-men swoop in, all black leather and and new wave haircuts. That panel is the reason I started reading comics.
The only comic issue number I know is X-men 205 - in it Wolverine throws Katie Power out of a taxi to protect her - 'Mr Logan you're scaring me'
In Secret Wars 2 when the Beyonder attacks someone with a missile, and Iron Fist punches it! - 'This day Iron Fist goes to his death'.
In Daredevil or Punisher, when the Punisher is in prison with Bullseye and he says he's going to help Bullseye break out. Bullseye says why, the Punisher replies with 'Because you might get shot while escaping'.
And this is from Daredevil:
Fixed the image
Rehosting is your friend, folks
Why? I have no idea what's going on there. Who's the kid? Is it a kid? Is the bad guy one of the Wrecking Crew? Why's he so book-read?
I'm not saying I'm doubting the arcs terribleness. I just need some background infos.
It's a woman. A mother of two, actually. She, her kids and a bunch of other civilians got caught between The Avengers and The Wrecking Crew. Cap was knocked unconscious and the woman basically stood between him and the wrecker, using his own shield to defend him. The wrecker beat her to death, but she kept the shield up as long as she could and saved Steve's life.
for no reason
Well to be fair she was resurrected as the new Captain Britain because she was beaten to death defending Captain America. It was the whole "no you can't tell your kids you're alive because it's against the rules" that made no sense.
I am pretty sure Brian Braddock was still around.
Oh. I thought he was out of action at the time. In Avalon or something. I mean, he and Meggan are the ones who resurrected her. I wasn't reading many titles back then, so I'm going by that story alone.
"And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
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But I guess some people could find it stupid in a really endearing way.
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A group of supervillains is sitting at a bar playing the game, Origin Story. Of course it's stupid. The entire premise is ridiculous. And frankly, almost every origin story is ridiculous beyond comprehension. That particular one is funny as Hell, especially compared to Genocide's; his is supposed to be tragic or some nonsense.
Anyway, basing an opinion on Sleeper based on those two pages is fucking idiotic.
Not only that but it's fairly insulting as well.
I'll bite: how is it insulting?
Homosexuality being used as a punishment (the jocks) in a story that is trying to be pro-gay is kind of backwards. Maybe insulting isn't quite the word but it is certainly off-putting.
I think I see what you mean. I think the mistake you're making, though, is assuming that it's homosexuality that's be used as punishment, when in reality it's just rape. Rape is never about sex or sexuality, but rather about violence and control. She's raping the boys, and she's just picking the most demeaning way possible. She feels that they have victimized her friends (and thus her by proxy) through their sexuality, and so she concludes that the way to demonstrate the most control over them is to invert that sexual force.
This is no different from prison rape.
Thus, it's not that homosexuality is presented as a punishment (any more than normal rape stories present heterosexuality as a punishment) but rather that rape is presented as a punishment.
edit: Furthermore, the very fact that she can syphon power from homosexuals and "see" a homosexual with her homo-vision also implies that there is something intrinsically different about people who are homosexuals. I'm pretty sure who you fuck has no bearing on your physical being. Last I checked homosexuals were indistinguishable from any other person. That's what makes them so terrifying.
Well, some studies have shown that certain portions of the brain are (on average) more similar in size in homosexuals to that of the opposite sex. Still pretty much impossible to check out any one person's brain and go "your hypothalmus is only 4 oz! QUEER!" But there is a statistical difference.
I'm not saying I definitely know what the writer was thinking, and your interpretation is potentially correct, but I still think mine is the one intended. Still, I guess we won't ever know.
As to your edit though, I must strenuously disagree: your sexuality is significantly (but not entirely) determined by your biology, not your psychology. A wide variety of studies have shown that sexuality is primarily determined by biology, and then merely focused by psychology (this is the so-called spectrum theory of sexuality, where you are born somewhere on the spectrum between pure-gay and pure-straight, and then society socializes you into a slightly different position). It's not unreasonable that her power could detect the underlying biological difference.
Alternately, you could say that she's reading their psychological sexuality the same way Green Lantern rings read psychological force of will, etc.
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Are you suggesting we burn gay people for fuel.
Because that's what this chick basically does.
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I don't know. I don't really buy in to anybody trying to empirically quantify anything like homosexuality or blackness, or asianness or whatever. It always reminds me of that Dr. Rushton fellow I had to study in my undergrad.
edit: I'm an editing machine today. To clarify, I know there are biological and, therefore, quantifiable characteristics to race. It's the extrapolation some people apply to it that drives me nuts.