That's obviously just because they couldn't model his dick. He got Rose pregnant, remember?
Besides, we're talking about Raikov.
Did he?
"I saw a man... it's like they were... intimate. Just thought you should know that". Sure GW was going insane at the time, but the child could easily have not been his (after so many lies, what's one more?).
At any rate, this is fun stuff for me to ponder on.
That's obviously just because they couldn't model his dick. He got Rose pregnant, remember?
Besides, we're talking about Raikov.
Did he?
"I saw a man... it's like they were... intimate. Just thought you should know that". Sure GW was going insane at the time, but the child could easily have not been his (after so many lies, what's one more?).
At any rate, this is fun stuff for me to ponder on.
You're kidding, right?
EDIT: Nevermind. I honestly thought you were serious for a second there.
That's obviously just because they couldn't model his dick. He got Rose pregnant, remember?
Besides, we're talking about Raikov.
Did he?
"I saw a man... it's like they were... intimate. Just thought you should know that". Sure GW was going insane at the time, but the child could easily have not been his (after so many lies, what's one more?).
At any rate, this is fun stuff for me to ponder on.
You're kidding, right?
EDIT: Nevermind. I honestly thought you were serious for a second there.
Nah, not really serious, but it's fun doing these things. I mean, the mind boggles. Or atrophies. Whichever.
My assumption was that that was just a canned line he was supposed to feed Raiden at some point to make him distrust Rose in the same way that Snake ended up distrusting Naomi, but it ended up getting spit out during the random flood of nonsense in Jejunum.
My assumption was that that was just a canned line he was supposed to feed Raiden at some point to make him distrust Rose in the same way that Snake ended up distrusting Naomi, but it ended up getting spit out during the random flood of nonsense in Jejunum.
Indeed true, but a lot of it was the "truth" as well, I mean, the transcription of the lines from the old MSX games, Virtual Mission briefings, and stuff like that.
That's obviously just because they couldn't model his dick. He got Rose pregnant, remember?
Besides, we're talking about Raikov.
Did he?
"I saw a man... it's like they were... intimate. Just thought you should know that". Sure GW was going insane at the time, but the child could easily have not been his (after so many lies, what's one more?).
At any rate, this is fun stuff for me to ponder on.
Storyline wise that's not really justifiable because at the point where she tells him she's pregnant that's after all the lies have been outed.
You know what's interesting? Kojima originally wanted Rose to be dead at the end of MGS2, but decided against it because it would leave players unsure of whether she ever existed or not.
EDIT: Which I guess doesn't explain why he decided that the ideal alternative was to make her both alive and pregnant, though I guess it makes it much less likely that Raiden would go "screw you bitch, you lied to me" and leave her.
Also, kind of off-topic, but I really hate Sunny's voice.
That's obviously just because they couldn't model his dick. He got Rose pregnant, remember?
Besides, we're talking about Raikov.
Did he?
"I saw a man... it's like they were... intimate. Just thought you should know that". Sure GW was going insane at the time, but the child could easily have not been his (after so many lies, what's one more?).
At any rate, this is fun stuff for me to ponder on.
Storyline wise that's not really justifiable because at the point where she tells him she's pregnant that's after all the lies have been outed.
You know what's interesting? Kojima originally wanted Rose to be dead at the end of MGS2, but decided against it because it would leave players unsure of whether she ever existed or not.
I still think Rose was pretty ambiguous at the end. She's evidently actually pregnant, but by the time she tells him that, Rose is being voiced by GW on the codec. She tells Raiden that "he'll hurt his eyes if he plays too close to the TV" before she tells him that she's pregnant.
Analyzing a piece of literature is not a black and white process. You see it differently, big deal, quit arguing about it.
For what it's worth, I think driving off the map is largely correct. I had similar ideas before I read it, except I didn't go CRAZY SUPER IN DEPTH. Like the sword thing. Raiden is, at the point, no longer just trying to be like Solid Snake, so they give him a weapon unlike anything Solid Snake used in the first game. No need for all this "forcing you out of the the first-person" bullshit.
I think what you need to realize is that what you're seeing is not there in the way that you think it is, it is only there because someone told you it was there, and you decided to believe him.
And that pretty much just proves my point for me.
Yes, I decided to believe them because I agree with the reasoned points they're making, a feat you've still yet to accomplish if I am to agree with you. As long as you don't, there's nothing to discuss (regarding this particular matter of course, I'm sure there's many things to discuss outside of it).
I'm confused. I'm not necessarily trying to get you to agree with me, I'm just stating that 'Driving Off The Map' didn't work for me because I like Raiden from the get go. Then you called me an Idiot, then I called you an Idiot.
I don't think you had to necessarily dislike Raiden for the Driving off the Map interpretation to work. It helps it somewhat, but regardless of how you felt about Raiden, the point still stands that, like the player, he's a soldier that was raised on videogames, and attempts to use his past experience with those videogames to tackle the challenges now presented to him.
I don't think you had to necessarily dislike Raiden for the Driving off the Map interpretation to work. It helps it somewhat, but regardless of how you felt about Raiden, the point still stands that, like the player, he's a soldier that was raised on videogames, and attempts to use his past experience with those videogames to tackle the challenges now presented to him.
At which he fails miserably every step of the way. It's only after he starts emulating his real experience from the Liberian Civil War as "Jack the Ripper" (using a blade) that he gets anything done.
Then again, maybe it wouldn't have the same impact as it had the first time, when I had been playing for like 4 hours straight and it was three in the morning.
I never understood why it was named after a section of the small intestine.
It's about how Arsenal deals with "infections" or intruders, as a biological system. The entire Arsenal Gear complex is named after parts of the body. Like Sigmoid Colon, I think even "Rectum" is there etc.
That's obviously just because they couldn't model his dick. He got Rose pregnant, remember?
Besides, we're talking about Raikov.
Did he?
"I saw a man... it's like they were... intimate. Just thought you should know that". Sure GW was going insane at the time, but the child could easily have not been his (after so many lies, what's one more?).
At any rate, this is fun stuff for me to ponder on.
Storyline wise that's not really justifiable because at the point where she tells him she's pregnant that's after all the lies have been outed.
You know what's interesting? Kojima originally wanted Rose to be dead at the end of MGS2, but decided against it because it would leave players unsure of whether she ever existed or not.
I still think Rose was pretty ambiguous at the end. She's evidently actually pregnant, but by the time she tells him that, Rose is being voiced by GW on the codec. She tells Raiden that "he'll hurt his eyes if he plays too close to the TV" before she tells him that she's pregnant.
But she turns up at the end in person and says to Raiden when he's talking about the future "Are you talking about the baby?"
Oop, there are more than two locations. The torture room is the Stomach, The first Naked room is Jejunum, Ascending Colon is where you meet Snake, Ileum is the hangar where you fight with Snake, Sigmoid Colon is where Fortune shows up, and Rectum is where you fight RAY.
That's obviously just because they couldn't model his dick. He got Rose pregnant, remember?
Besides, we're talking about Raikov.
Did he?
"I saw a man... it's like they were... intimate. Just thought you should know that". Sure GW was going insane at the time, but the child could easily have not been his (after so many lies, what's one more?).
At any rate, this is fun stuff for me to ponder on.
Storyline wise that's not really justifiable because at the point where she tells him she's pregnant that's after all the lies have been outed.
You know what's interesting? Kojima originally wanted Rose to be dead at the end of MGS2, but decided against it because it would leave players unsure of whether she ever existed or not.
I still think Rose was pretty ambiguous at the end. She's evidently actually pregnant, but by the time she tells him that, Rose is being voiced by GW on the codec. She tells Raiden that "he'll hurt his eyes if he plays too close to the TV" before she tells him that she's pregnant.
But she turns up at the end in person and says to Raiden when he's talking about the future "Are you talking about the baby?"
Her being pregnant is real.
Yeah I know just the sequence of dialogue in Arsenal was weird.
I don't think you had to necessarily dislike Raiden for the Driving off the Map interpretation to work. It helps it somewhat, but regardless of how you felt about Raiden, the point still stands that, like the player, he's a soldier that was raised on videogames, and attempts to use his past experience with those videogames to tackle the challenges now presented to him.
At which he fails miserably every step of the way. It's only after he starts emulating his real experience from the Liberian Civil War as "Jack the Ripper" (using a blade) that he gets anything done.
He doesn't "fail miserably" though, does he? He might not succeed at every objective, but he still manages to dismantle the C4's and defeat Fatman, Vamp and the Harrier, among other things.
But if he were to succeed 100% what would be the point in playing the game?
Yeah I know just the sequence of dialogue in Arsenal was weird.
Definitely one of the weirdest sequences in video game history.
Also, the reason Arsenal is named after bits of a digestive tract is inspired by that story of the guy who was eaten by the whale. I can't remember what it's called. It might be Pinnochio or something...
Also, the reason Arsenal is named after bits of a digestive tract is inspired by that story of the guy who was eaten by the whale. I can't remember what it's called. It might be Pinnochio or something...
It wouldn't be a Japanese game without random biblical references.
Also, the reason Arsenal is named after bits of a digestive tract is inspired by that story of the guy who was eaten by the whale. I can't remember what it's called. It might be Pinnochio or something...
I don't think you had to necessarily dislike Raiden for the Driving off the Map interpretation to work. It helps it somewhat, but regardless of how you felt about Raiden, the point still stands that, like the player, he's a soldier that was raised on videogames, and attempts to use his past experience with those videogames to tackle the challenges now presented to him.
At which he fails miserably every step of the way. It's only after he starts emulating his real experience from the Liberian Civil War as "Jack the Ripper" (using a blade) that he gets anything done.
He doesn't "fail miserably" though, does he? He might not succeed at every objective, but he still manages to dismantle the C4's and defeat Fatman, Vamp and the Harrier, among other things.
But if he were to succeed 100% what would be the point in playing the game?
He doesn't beat Vamp or the Harrier, though. The Harrier is undamaged afterward and all he manages to do to Solidus is ruin his eye. Compare to the Hind-D, which explodes EPICALLY and at least appears to kill its pilot. Vamp lives all the way through the game and is coming back for MGS4. Liquid very clearly gets killed in MGS1, and though he's back for 2 and 4, it's very clear that Snake fucked him up very badly. Vamp is none the worse for fighting Raiden in MGS2.
He only manages to stop Fatman after part of the Big Shell has been destroyed and that bombsquad guy sacrificed himself, though in all fairness I don't remember whose fault that one was. It actually may have been Snake's.
I don't think you had to necessarily dislike Raiden for the Driving off the Map interpretation to work. It helps it somewhat, but regardless of how you felt about Raiden, the point still stands that, like the player, he's a soldier that was raised on videogames, and attempts to use his past experience with those videogames to tackle the challenges now presented to him.
At which he fails miserably every step of the way. It's only after he starts emulating his real experience from the Liberian Civil War as "Jack the Ripper" (using a blade) that he gets anything done.
He doesn't "fail miserably" though, does he? He might not succeed at every objective, but he still manages to dismantle the C4's and defeat Fatman, Vamp and the Harrier, among other things.
But if he were to succeed 100% what would be the point in playing the game?
He doesn't beat Vamp or the Harrier, though. The Harrier is undamaged afterward and all he manages to do to Solidus is ruin his eye. Compare to the Hind-D, which explodes EPICALLY and at least appears to kill its pilot. Vamp lives all the way through the game and is coming back for MGS4. Liquid very clearly gets killed in MGS1, and though he's back for 2 and 4, it's very clear that Snake fucked him up very badly. Vamp is none the worse for fighting Raiden in MGS2.
FOXDIE?
Snake NEVER kills Liquid. Every time he gets back up.
And the Harrier is never seen again after the fight against it. Saying it's undamaged is a stretch. Sure it doesn't explode, but saying it's undamaged is just silly.
He only manages to stop Fatman after part of the Big Shell has been destroyed and that bombsquad guy sacrificed himself, though in all fairness I don't remember whose fault that one was. It actually may have been Snake's.
I don't think you had to necessarily dislike Raiden for the Driving off the Map interpretation to work. It helps it somewhat, but regardless of how you felt about Raiden, the point still stands that, like the player, he's a soldier that was raised on videogames, and attempts to use his past experience with those videogames to tackle the challenges now presented to him.
At which he fails miserably every step of the way. It's only after he starts emulating his real experience from the Liberian Civil War as "Jack the Ripper" (using a blade) that he gets anything done.
He doesn't "fail miserably" though, does he? He might not succeed at every objective, but he still manages to dismantle the C4's and defeat Fatman, Vamp and the Harrier, among other things.
But if he were to succeed 100% what would be the point in playing the game?
He doesn't beat Vamp or the Harrier, though. The Harrier is undamaged afterward and all he manages to do to Solidus is ruin his eye. Compare to the Hind-D, which explodes EPICALLY and at least appears to kill its pilot. Vamp lives all the way through the game and is coming back for MGS4. Liquid very clearly gets killed in MGS1, and though he's back for 2 and 4, it's very clear that Snake fucked him up very badly. Vamp is none the worse for fighting Raiden in MGS2.
FOXDIE?
Snake NEVER kills Liquid. Every time he gets back up.
And the Harrier is never seen again after the fight against it. Saying it's undamaged is a stretch. Sure it doesn't explode, but saying it's undamaged is just silly.
After re-watching it, the Harrier does in fact lose a wing. That doesn't change the fact that the player is denied even the temporary satisfaction of blowing up an airplane and killing its pilot, the main antagonist. In both cases the pilot lives, but in MGS1 you're at least allowed to feel like you've killed Liquid for a while, when in MGS2 the game's very quick to point out that the damage you did to Solidus was minimal.
And, all right, Solid is not responsible for killing Liquid, FOXDIE is. The point, however, is that MGS1 ends with Liquid dead, and considering that you've been fighting him for the past hour, you feel like you're the one who succeeded, even if his death was due to a story element and nothing that the player did. MGS2 constantly reminds you that you were unable to kill Vamp.
I don't think you had to necessarily dislike Raiden for the Driving off the Map interpretation to work. It helps it somewhat, but regardless of how you felt about Raiden, the point still stands that, like the player, he's a soldier that was raised on videogames, and attempts to use his past experience with those videogames to tackle the challenges now presented to him.
At which he fails miserably every step of the way. It's only after he starts emulating his real experience from the Liberian Civil War as "Jack the Ripper" (using a blade) that he gets anything done.
He doesn't "fail miserably" though, does he? He might not succeed at every objective, but he still manages to dismantle the C4's and defeat Fatman, Vamp and the Harrier, among other things.
But if he were to succeed 100% what would be the point in playing the game?
He doesn't beat Vamp or the Harrier, though. The Harrier is undamaged afterward and all he manages to do to Solidus is ruin his eye. Compare to the Hind-D, which explodes EPICALLY and at least appears to kill its pilot. Vamp lives all the way through the game and is coming back for MGS4. Liquid very clearly gets killed in MGS1, and though he's back for 2 and 4, it's very clear that Snake fucked him up very badly. Vamp is none the worse for fighting Raiden in MGS2.
FOXDIE?
Snake NEVER kills Liquid. Every time he gets back up.
And the Harrier is never seen again after the fight against it. Saying it's undamaged is a stretch. Sure it doesn't explode, but saying it's undamaged is just silly.
After re-watching it, the Harrier does in fact lose a wing. That doesn't change the fact that the player is denied even the temporary satisfaction of blowing up an airplane and killing its pilot, the main antagonist. In both cases the pilot lives, but in MGS1 you're at least allowed to feel like you've killed Liquid for a while, when in MGS2 the game's very quick to point out that the damage you did to Solidus was minimal.
And, all right, Solid is not responsible for killing Liquid, FOXDIE is. The point, however, is that MGS1 ends with Liquid dead. MGS2 constantly reminds you that you were unable to kill Vamp.
I think something else we need to think about (and I'm not sure how you guys will take this) but even if Snake fought Vamp he still wouldn't be dead.
And again, when Snake fights Fortune, he ends up handcuffed.
I guess, at the end of the day, I'm just seeing it all in a different way.
I don't think you had to necessarily dislike Raiden for the Driving off the Map interpretation to work. It helps it somewhat, but regardless of how you felt about Raiden, the point still stands that, like the player, he's a soldier that was raised on videogames, and attempts to use his past experience with those videogames to tackle the challenges now presented to him.
At which he fails miserably every step of the way. It's only after he starts emulating his real experience from the Liberian Civil War as "Jack the Ripper" (using a blade) that he gets anything done.
He doesn't "fail miserably" though, does he? He might not succeed at every objective, but he still manages to dismantle the C4's and defeat Fatman, Vamp and the Harrier, among other things.
But if he were to succeed 100% what would be the point in playing the game?
He doesn't beat Vamp or the Harrier, though. The Harrier is undamaged afterward and all he manages to do to Solidus is ruin his eye. Compare to the Hind-D, which explodes EPICALLY and at least appears to kill its pilot. Vamp lives all the way through the game and is coming back for MGS4. Liquid very clearly gets killed in MGS1, and though he's back for 2 and 4, it's very clear that Snake fucked him up very badly. Vamp is none the worse for fighting Raiden in MGS2.
FOXDIE?
Snake NEVER kills Liquid. Every time he gets back up.
And the Harrier is never seen again after the fight against it. Saying it's undamaged is a stretch. Sure it doesn't explode, but saying it's undamaged is just silly.
After re-watching it, the Harrier does in fact lose a wing. That doesn't change the fact that the player is denied even the temporary satisfaction of blowing up an airplane and killing its pilot, the main antagonist. In both cases the pilot lives, but in MGS1 you're at least allowed to feel like you've killed Liquid for a while, when in MGS2 the game's very quick to point out that the damage you did to Solidus was minimal.
And, all right, Solid is not responsible for killing Liquid, FOXDIE is. The point, however, is that MGS1 ends with Liquid dead. MGS2 constantly reminds you that you were unable to kill Vamp.
I think something else we need to think about (and I'm not sure how you guys will take this) but even if Snake fought Vamp he still wouldn't be dead.
And again, when Snake fights Fortune, he ends up handcuffed.
I guess, at the end of the day, I'm just seeing it all in a different way.
I'd argue that that's exactly why the narrative never has Vamp and Snake fight.
However, why don't you explain exactly how you do see everything, so that this conversation can be a little bit less about beating around the bush?
It might have something to do with the fact that I liked Raiden a ton when he was revealed, and never once thought "man, I wish I was playing as Snake." I felt a lot more comfortable playing as Raiden, because he was a "rookie", and I hadn't played MGS1 in a very long time and I spent a while getting re-used to Stealth and things, and it felt like me and Raiden were in the same boat.
That's also, ya'know, the reason Kojima put Raiden in the game. With that knowledge the whole Driving Off The Map thing falls apart, really.
How so? Part of the point that the Driving off the Map guy makes is that Raiden is a metaphor for the player, whether the player likes it or not. So it would make sense that they have similar skillsets.
I'll agree that he makes a few connections that simply aren't there, like the sword thing, but I think his overall idea is right.
A lot of stupid, pretentious shit.
Catching up on this thread, and just had to respond. Dude, you're not Kojima, so quit pretending you are. Just because you interpret the game a certain way does not make it right.
I chose to interpret MGS2 as a game first, and hence the reason why you can't use the sword in first person works. Like someone else said, sometimes a bird is just a bird. And even if you don't agree, there's no need to be a douchebag about it.
I booted up MGS2 today, since i haven't completed it in such a long time.
Being honest, over the past six years, my opinion of Sons of Liberty has changed quite a lot. I've gotten past the initial shock of snake taking the back seat, and a new character leading. I think someone mentioned on this thread how the storyline of Sons of Liberty is like an optical illusion, and at some point it just clicks. I 100% agree with this, it almost feels like a completely different game this time around, simply because for me, its clicked.
I'm currently at Vamp, on hard mode. I have to say, hes a lot harder than i remember. I hate the close range stab he pulls off later in the battle, i really suck at avoiding it .
Posts
Did he?
"I saw a man... it's like they were... intimate. Just thought you should know that". Sure GW was going insane at the time, but the child could easily have not been his (after so many lies, what's one more?).
At any rate, this is fun stuff for me to ponder on.
Occam's Razor would dictate that the kid is Raiden's and that they just couldn't model his naughty parts.
Speaking of Raiden's kid, I wonder what kind of role it'll have in MGS4? It could be a really cool part about Raiden's character.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Of course, I mean, "I need scissors, 69" can't be disputed, but still the miniscule possiblity is there.
You're kidding, right?
EDIT: Nevermind. I honestly thought you were serious for a second there.
Nah, not really serious, but it's fun doing these things. I mean, the mind boggles. Or atrophies. Whichever.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Indeed true, but a lot of it was the "truth" as well, I mean, the transcription of the lines from the old MSX games, Virtual Mission briefings, and stuff like that.
Storyline wise that's not really justifiable because at the point where she tells him she's pregnant that's after all the lies have been outed.
You know what's interesting? Kojima originally wanted Rose to be dead at the end of MGS2, but decided against it because it would leave players unsure of whether she ever existed or not.
EDIT: Which I guess doesn't explain why he decided that the ideal alternative was to make her both alive and pregnant, though I guess it makes it much less likely that Raiden would go "screw you bitch, you lied to me" and leave her.
Also, kind of off-topic, but I really hate Sunny's voice.
I still think Rose was pretty ambiguous at the end. She's evidently actually pregnant, but by the time she tells him that, Rose is being voiced by GW on the codec. She tells Raiden that "he'll hurt his eyes if he plays too close to the TV" before she tells him that she's pregnant.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
For what it's worth, I think driving off the map is largely correct. I had similar ideas before I read it, except I didn't go CRAZY SUPER IN DEPTH. Like the sword thing. Raiden is, at the point, no longer just trying to be like Solid Snake, so they give him a weapon unlike anything Solid Snake used in the first game. No need for all this "forcing you out of the the first-person" bullshit.
I don't think you had to necessarily dislike Raiden for the Driving off the Map interpretation to work. It helps it somewhat, but regardless of how you felt about Raiden, the point still stands that, like the player, he's a soldier that was raised on videogames, and attempts to use his past experience with those videogames to tackle the challenges now presented to him.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Yeah, I have one just before Arsenal Gear just for that purpose alone.
At which he fails miserably every step of the way. It's only after he starts emulating his real experience from the Liberian Civil War as "Jack the Ripper" (using a blade) that he gets anything done.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
I don't either but it's a cool-sounding word.
Also if I remember right the scene of the bossfight with RAY is a fancy word for a butt.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
It's about how Arsenal deals with "infections" or intruders, as a biological system. The entire Arsenal Gear complex is named after parts of the body. Like Sigmoid Colon, I think even "Rectum" is there etc.
So the implication here is that the game takes place in an enormous digestive tract?
EDIT:
I mean, basically you're being shat by arsenal gear.
I think all the locations in Arsenal are named after body parts.
Well, I mean, there's only two locations in Arsenal.
So yeah.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
And both of those are parts of the lower digestive system? So, basically yeah, Arsenal Gear is shitting you.
Five.
Torture Chamber > Streaking part (fighting part later) > Place you meet Snake > Big hexagon whatever > Outside where you play with RAY's.
I think they're all named after a specific part IIRC.
Yes, he's shitting you out. Designed to "expel" you.
But she turns up at the end in person and says to Raiden when he's talking about the future "Are you talking about the baby?"
Her being pregnant is real.
Stomach
Jejunum
Ascending Colon
Ileum
Sigmoid Colon
Rectum
So yes Arsenal Gear is pooping you out.
EDIT: beaten.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
http://www.audioentropy.com/
He doesn't "fail miserably" though, does he? He might not succeed at every objective, but he still manages to dismantle the C4's and defeat Fatman, Vamp and the Harrier, among other things.
But if he were to succeed 100% what would be the point in playing the game?
Definitely one of the weirdest sequences in video game history.
Also, the reason Arsenal is named after bits of a digestive tract is inspired by that story of the guy who was eaten by the whale. I can't remember what it's called. It might be Pinnochio or something...
It wouldn't be a Japanese game without random biblical references.
MGS2's Monstro level is way better than KH's.
He doesn't beat Vamp or the Harrier, though. The Harrier is undamaged afterward and all he manages to do to Solidus is ruin his eye. Compare to the Hind-D, which explodes EPICALLY and at least appears to kill its pilot. Vamp lives all the way through the game and is coming back for MGS4. Liquid very clearly gets killed in MGS1, and though he's back for 2 and 4, it's very clear that Snake fucked him up very badly. Vamp is none the worse for fighting Raiden in MGS2.
He only manages to stop Fatman after part of the Big Shell has been destroyed and that bombsquad guy sacrificed himself, though in all fairness I don't remember whose fault that one was. It actually may have been Snake's.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
FOXDIE?
Snake NEVER kills Liquid. Every time he gets back up.
And the Harrier is never seen again after the fight against it. Saying it's undamaged is a stretch. Sure it doesn't explode, but saying it's undamaged is just silly.
That is Snake's fault, yes.
After re-watching it, the Harrier does in fact lose a wing. That doesn't change the fact that the player is denied even the temporary satisfaction of blowing up an airplane and killing its pilot, the main antagonist. In both cases the pilot lives, but in MGS1 you're at least allowed to feel like you've killed Liquid for a while, when in MGS2 the game's very quick to point out that the damage you did to Solidus was minimal.
And, all right, Solid is not responsible for killing Liquid, FOXDIE is. The point, however, is that MGS1 ends with Liquid dead, and considering that you've been fighting him for the past hour, you feel like you're the one who succeeded, even if his death was due to a story element and nothing that the player did. MGS2 constantly reminds you that you were unable to kill Vamp.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
I think something else we need to think about (and I'm not sure how you guys will take this) but even if Snake fought Vamp he still wouldn't be dead.
And again, when Snake fights Fortune, he ends up handcuffed.
I guess, at the end of the day, I'm just seeing it all in a different way.
Raiden > Snake
In every area other than actual field experience.
However, why don't you explain exactly how you do see everything, so that this conversation can be a little bit less about beating around the bush?
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Catching up on this thread, and just had to respond. Dude, you're not Kojima, so quit pretending you are. Just because you interpret the game a certain way does not make it right.
I chose to interpret MGS2 as a game first, and hence the reason why you can't use the sword in first person works. Like someone else said, sometimes a bird is just a bird. And even if you don't agree, there's no need to be a douchebag about it.
Being honest, over the past six years, my opinion of Sons of Liberty has changed quite a lot. I've gotten past the initial shock of snake taking the back seat, and a new character leading. I think someone mentioned on this thread how the storyline of Sons of Liberty is like an optical illusion, and at some point it just clicks. I 100% agree with this, it almost feels like a completely different game this time around, simply because for me, its clicked.
I'm currently at Vamp, on hard mode. I have to say, hes a lot harder than i remember. I hate the close range stab he pulls off later in the battle, i really suck at avoiding it
PSN:Hakira__
http://www.audioentropy.com/