I found it fairly obvious that Raiden fails at everything he does.
Can't touch Fortune.
Can't save Stillman.
Can beat Fatman. (as part of the excersize, being controlled)
Can't save the Big Shell (blows up in the end, Fatman was just like the prolonging of time).
Can't save Ames.
Can't blow the Harrier.
Can't save the President.
Can't touch Vamp (multiple times, one, two, three, four, five [M4 when he holds Snake, bullets to the head, Harrier, Sediment Pool, Sniper to the head]).
Can't save Emma.
Can't defeat the Ray's.
Can't save Olga.
*finds identity, casts Snake away*
Can kill Solidus.
As opposed to Snake;
Can't save DARPA chief. (we'll get back to this one in a moment)
Can defeat Ocelot (Ocelot gets screwed by Frank, but that doesn't matter since the objective is Baker not dying from the C4)
Can't save Baker.
Can defeat the tank (entryway further) but
Can't defeat Raven (we'll get back to that in a moment).
Can defeat the Ninja.
Can kill Psycho Mantis.
Can't kill Sniper Wolf (we'll get back to that as well).
Can kill the Hind D (can't kill Liquid, we'll get back to that)
Can kill Sniper Wolf (invalidates the previous can't).
Can kill Raven (invalidates the previous can't)
Can kill Decoy Octopus (invalidates the previous can't of the DARPA Chief, who was already dead, couldn't be saved).
Can destroy Metal Gear REX (not alone, but it's in shambles in the end)
Can kill Liquid Snake over and over again (not himself, but FOXDIE does the trick at the proper time)
Can save Meryl and Otacon (canon ending is Meryl, Otacon lives either way).
So.....
Yeah.
And this is the simples way of representing it. Every time Snake meets a hurdle, most of the time he gets beyond it in a satisfactory way to him and the player.
Man, I just looked up and reread the entire discussion that Raiden has with the patriot AI right before fighting Solidus and there's a lot of good stuff in there. If you actually analyze what it's saying you get a so much better picture of what the patriots are supposed to be. I really, really prefer all the pseudoscience and theory that they use in MGS2 to what they use in MGS1, and reading really makes me more appreciate the "gene, meme, scene" theme of the MGS series. MGS2 seems like the only game in the series that really seems to mean something. There's not really that sort of depth in MGS1 or 3, I think.
Man, I just looked up and reread the entire discussion that Raiden has with the patriot AI right before fighting Solidus and there's a lot of good stuff in there. If you actually analyze what it's saying you get a so much better picture of what the patriots are supposed to be. I really, really prefer all the pseudoscience and theory that they use in MGS2 to what they use in MGS1, and reading really makes me more appreciate the "gene, meme, scene" theme of the MGS series. MGS2 seems like the only game in the series that really seems to mean something. There's not really that sort of depth in MGS1 or 3, I think.
Yeah, I got the same impression as well.
I kinda thought of MGS3 to be fanservice to people who wanted to control Snake as he was promised in MGS2 through the Tanker chapter, and MGS1 as sort of the begining that was never able to go into certain depths.
My favorite so far is definitely MGS2. We'll see what MGS4 can do though.
I came here too late for the "is Raikov female" discussion, but I don't believe that this has been pointed out: in MGS3 once Snake's stolen Raikov's uniform, if you open the locker where he stashed Raikov, he falls out in nowt but a black thong, very clearly male.
Okay, I feel a lot of this has been twisted in an attempt to fit your argument. I can see where you're coming from, but it seems you're looking at it a little weird.
MGS2: Raiden can't save Stillman or Olga, but they sacrifice themselves. Ames is killed by The Patriots. Raiden does destroy The Harrier, and I'll admit, he doesn't kill it's pilots, but if he did the plot would screech to a halt.
I kinda thought of MGS3 to be fanservice to people who wanted to control Snake as we has...............
Jesus, have you been fucking brainwashed? Get over "Driving Off The Map". Kojima doesn't hate his fans you know. He made MGS3 because he wanted to delve into Big Boss' character and explain about the The Philosophers and set up some back story.
Okay, I feel a lot of this has been twisted in an attempt to fit your argument. I can see where you're coming from, but it seems you're looking at it a little weird.
Okay, I feel a lot of this has been twisted in an attempt to fit your argument. I can see where you're coming from, but it seems you're looking at it a little weird.
MGS2: Raiden can't save Stillman or Olga, but they sacrifice themselves. Ames is killed by The Patriots. Raiden does destroy The Harrier, and I'll admit, he doesn't kill it's pilots, but if he did the plot would screech to a halt.
I kinda thought of MGS3 to be fanservice to people who wanted to control Snake as we has...............
Jesus, have you been fucking brainwashed? Get over "Driving Off The Map". Kojima doesn't hate his fans you know. He made MGS3 because he wanted to delve into Big Boss' character and explain about the The Philosophers and set up some back story.
Agree. The reason I enjoyed MGS3 so much is not because "wee, I'm playing as Snake again!", but because by the end you have a more complete look of the world of Metal Gear. You understand Boss's motivation.
Okay, I feel a lot of this has been twisted in an attempt to fit your argument. I can see where you're coming from, but it seems you're looking at it a little weird.
MGS2: Raiden can't save Stillman or Olga, but they sacrifice themselves. Ames is killed by The Patriots. Raiden does destroy The Harrier, and I'll admit, he doesn't kill it's pilots, but if he did the plot would screech to a halt.
I kinda thought of MGS3 to be fanservice to people who wanted to control Snake as we has...............
Jesus, have you been fucking brainwashed? Get over "Driving Off The Map". Kojima doesn't hate his fans you know. He made MGS3 because he wanted to delve into Big Boss' character and explain about the The Philosophers and set up some back story.
hey don't knock black dove i mean the man is hammering a square peg into a round hole with some serious determination here
Okay, I feel a lot of this has been twisted in an attempt to fit your argument. I can see where you're coming from, but it seems you're looking at it a little weird.
Something you seem to be completely ignoring, Igort, is how big of a surprise Raiden is supposed to be. None of the promo stuff mentioned him, he's not on any of the boxart, and the blurb on the back of the box doesn't even mention the Big Shell. It's very clear that Kojima wanted the player to be completely blindsided by Raiden, and there must've been a reason for that.
I guess, there's just not as much focus in MGS3 on what really does shape Big Boss as I would've liked, or, at least, it's all there but maybe it's too subtle. I don't think that MGS3 really accomplished what it set out to do because you kind of need Portable Ops to really get the feel for how Big Boss changed, you know what I mean? It's a complete story, but it's not as artful as MGS2 in my opinion.
I haven't played Portable Ops but Big Boss came across pretty clearly to me. He starts off as a loyal, patriotic soldier, and when he sees what that loyalty and patriotism does to The Boss, he turns against it. You can infer that the incident makes him create Outer Heaven because he wants a country that won't screw over its soldiers, and will in fact cater specifically to them.
You should at least read the Portable Ops story, it's very edifying as to how the whole thing works.
Philosophers to Patriots, how they were formed, who the originating members may be, and the fact that;
Big Boss probably was one of them if he accepted the invitation, which he probably did.
There should be a transcript of everything that goes on in Portable Ops on Gamefaq's I think. It's a really great story, one you would never expect from a portable game.
The thing about MGS3 is that it all only comes down in the final few cinematic sequences. It was awesome, but I didn't enjoy the experience as much as I did in MGS2 being anal raped (strangely) by the developer trying to make a point. It was also, innovative. The ending was puzzling, nothing was clear cut, and it was all fresh Raiden wise (strangely, considering when you break it down, you're playing an improved version of the previous game technically speaking as in cutscene > roam > boss > repeat).
I haven't played Portable Ops but Big Boss came across pretty clearly to me. He starts off as a loyal, patriotic soldier, and when he sees what that loyalty and patriotism does to The Boss, he turns against it. You can infer that the incident makes him create Outer Heaven because he wants a country that won't screw over its soldiers, and will in fact cater specifically to them.
I suppose, but he's still sort of ambiguous at the end. You don't necessarily feel that he decided he must turn against this concept of loyalty, but you do get the idea that he's on the crux. I guess it does really well signify the climax before his descent towards creating Outer Heaven, which Portable Ops shows.
EDIT:
I've never played Portable Ops either, but on youtube I found some video compilation of all the cutscenes and conversations that was really good. I would look for that if you could, because personally I love the style that they told the story in too.
Something you seem to be completely ignoring, Igort, is how big of a surprise Raiden is supposed to be. None of the promo stuff mentioned him, he's not on any of the boxart, and the blurb on the back of the box doesn't even mention the Big Shell. It's very clear that Kojima wanted the player to be completely blindsided by Raiden, and there must've been a reason for that.
I'm not completely disagreeing with that. I just don't see that everything the player does from then on is all part of a way of portraying the theme of the game. I mean, maybe to an extent, but some of the stuff in "Driving Off The Map" is just flat out ridiculous.
Taking Raiden's amazing feats in the game away from him is something I don't agree with either. I see it all as him developing his character and growing out from his VR Training he was put through by The Patriots and becoming himself. Sure, the entire Mahattan Incident was set up so he was, in a sense, supposed to succeed but I don't see it as any reason to take that away from him.
I really don't know how to go from here. I'm not saying that "Driving Off The Map" is wrong, just that I don't like it. But BlackDove seems to be attacking me for it, and I just don't know why. It's irritating, because I set this thread so I could discuss Metal Gear with people, not have people argue and bicker. I might just leave this thread and let you guys get on with it.
Igort on
0
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited May 2008
You know...and sorry if this has been said before. But taking from the context of MGS2 itself, I always saw Raiden as being somewhat of an avatar for the player themselves. And I don't mean that as an insult for all the people who don't like Raiden or anything like that.
Something you seem to be completely ignoring, Igort, is how big of a surprise Raiden is supposed to be. None of the promo stuff mentioned him, he's not on any of the boxart, and the blurb on the back of the box doesn't even mention the Big Shell. It's very clear that Kojima wanted the player to be completely blindsided by Raiden, and there must've been a reason for that.
I'm not completely disagreeing with that. I just don't see that everything the player does from then on is all part of a way of portraying the theme of the game. I mean, maybe to an extent, but some of the stuff in "Driving Off The Map" is just flat out ridiculous.
Taking Raiden's amazing feats in the game away from him is something I don't agree with either. I see it all as him developing his character and growing out from his VR Training he was put through by The Patriots and becoming himself. Sure, the entire Mahattan Incident was set up so he was, in a sense, supposed to succeed but I don't see it as any reason to take that away from him.
I really don't know how to go from here. I'm not saying that "Driving Off The Map" is wrong, just that I don't like it. But BlackDove seems to be attacking me for it, and I just don't know why. It's irritating, because I set this thread so I could discuss Metal Gear with people, not have people argue and bicker. I might just leave this thread and let you guys get on with it.
You could just toss BlackDove on your ignore list and go right on posting in here. Personally I'm enjoying discussing this with someone who disagrees. If everyone already agrees on it than what's the point of discussion?
I mean if we shouldn't discuss these things, then I just won't post. I don't have a pressing need or anything, I just like seeing what others have to say on the matter and putting my views with and against theirs, and going back and forth.
If that's not the intention here then I won't write anymore. After all is said and done, who gives a shit about Metal Gear. Don't want to antagonize or make people feel like they're being attacked by opposing their views.
Well, I mean, you just need to lay off with the "you're wrong and you should feel bad about it" sentiment you seem to have for people that disagree with you. When you're not doing that you're making good points.
I always thought it was possible that Raiden was being trained up to be the next Grey Fox/Ninja, rather than Snake. Frank Hunter has a way more awesome history though.
For MGS 2 Amusement, Go into Special and Load up the Casting theatre.
I personally recommend loading up demo 1 or 2 and swapping the Russian Special Forces for Male Office workers. I can't stop laughing at these guys with suits and glasses, night vision and AK's taking over a boat.
I always thought it was possible that Raiden was being trained up to be the next Grey Fox/Ninja, rather than Snake. Frank Hunter has a way more awesome history though.
Until Portable OPs.
And as much as I love PO, I didn't enjoy the retcon they did on Gray Fox. I would have preferred them somehow retconning Schneider or something, if they insist on a ninja of sorts.
I always thought it was possible that Raiden was being trained up to be the next Grey Fox/Ninja, rather than Snake. Frank Hunter has a way more awesome history though.
Someday when I can afford a ps3, I will get mgs4 and love it to pieces. I'm not a 360 lover or anything, I can't afford one of those either. I just can't swing that kind of purchase right now. I somehow missed MGS, probably because I never had a ps. I have seen room mates and stuff play the different MGS games, messed around with them a bit, but I have never owned any of them.
I do plan on getting MGS2 and MGS3 for my ps2 and Twin Snakes for my Wii, since I am getting a GC controller and memcard anyway for when I get Killer7.
I am really excited by the mgs4 stuff I have seen so far. Raiden is looking super awesome as a cyborg ninja death machine, but we really could have done without the goddam reacharound in the vamp fight. Seriously, that was the gayest thing I have ever seen in a videogame thing. I'm cool with gay dudes and everything, but man that was ridiculous.
Fox's last name, Jaeger, is German for "Hunter". This fact has been played upon in several of the games. In Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake, Natasha Marcova (Gustava Heffner in later versions) tells Snake that she once fell in love with a man named Frank Hunter; during the later fight with Fox, Snake's mercenary expert Kasler tells Snake that Fox's real name is Frank Jaeger, and that mercenaries knew him as the legendary Hunter because of his last name.[1] In Metal Gear Solid, Fox's adopted sister is Naomi Hunter, and it is mentioned that her time at FOXHOUND was spent, like a hunter, lying in wait for Snake as her "prey" to appear so that she could kill him. Finally, Metal Gear Solid: Portable Ops revealed the origin of this name: during his years in Mozambique, Gray Fox was known for his duplicitous "hunting": by acting as a frank boy, he would trick enemies into letting their guard down, letting him hunt them. This earned him the nickname "The Frank Hunter" by his enemies. Because the boy spoke some German, they used the German word for Hunter, Jäger (Jaeger in English spelling), giving him the name "Frank Jaeger."[2]
So I beg your pardon, I'm getting confused with his nickname and the whole reason behind it.
I mean if we shouldn't discuss these things, then I just won't post. I don't have a pressing need or anything, I just like seeing what others have to say on the matter and putting my views with and against theirs, and going back and forth.
If that's not the intention here then I won't write anymore. After all is said and done, who gives a shit about Metal Gear. Don't want to antagonize or make people feel like they're being attacked by opposing their views.
If you guys want me to quit posting I'll quit.
Don't quit posting here, I'd feel bad about that. You're an alright guy, but as Mush said "you just need to lay off with the "you're wrong and you should feel bad about it" sentiment". Not to sound whiny but when people have a go at me I can get kinda irked off.
I have weird self esteem issues, to cut to the chase.
For MGS 2 Amusement, Go into Special and Load up the Casting theatre.
I personally recommend loading up demo 1 or 2 and swapping the Russian Special Forces for Male Office workers. I can't stop laughing at these guys with suits and glasses, night vision and AK's taking over a boat.
My personal favourite is taking the scene where Solidus destroys the RAY's and replacing Solidus with an old lady. Childish, but excellent stuff.
Man, what. I never got past the first boss of PO (I know, I know, I'll get around to that at some point), but I always thought it was great that there was at least one guy in the series whose full real name we knew.
Man, what. I never got past the first boss of PO (I know, I know, I'll get around to that at some point), but I always thought it was great that there was at least one guy in the series whose full real name we knew.
There are several characters in the series that have their real names known.
Posts
Can't touch Fortune.
Can't save Stillman.
Can beat Fatman. (as part of the excersize, being controlled)
Can't save the Big Shell (blows up in the end, Fatman was just like the prolonging of time).
Can't save Ames.
Can't blow the Harrier.
Can't save the President.
Can't touch Vamp (multiple times, one, two, three, four, five [M4 when he holds Snake, bullets to the head, Harrier, Sediment Pool, Sniper to the head]).
Can't save Emma.
Can't defeat the Ray's.
Can't save Olga.
*finds identity, casts Snake away*
Can kill Solidus.
As opposed to Snake;
Can't save DARPA chief. (we'll get back to this one in a moment)
Can defeat Ocelot (Ocelot gets screwed by Frank, but that doesn't matter since the objective is Baker not dying from the C4)
Can't save Baker.
Can defeat the tank (entryway further) but
Can't defeat Raven (we'll get back to that in a moment).
Can defeat the Ninja.
Can kill Psycho Mantis.
Can't kill Sniper Wolf (we'll get back to that as well).
Can kill the Hind D (can't kill Liquid, we'll get back to that)
Can kill Sniper Wolf (invalidates the previous can't).
Can kill Raven (invalidates the previous can't)
Can kill Decoy Octopus (invalidates the previous can't of the DARPA Chief, who was already dead, couldn't be saved).
Can destroy Metal Gear REX (not alone, but it's in shambles in the end)
Can kill Liquid Snake over and over again (not himself, but FOXDIE does the trick at the proper time)
Can save Meryl and Otacon (canon ending is Meryl, Otacon lives either way).
So.....
Yeah.
And this is the simples way of representing it. Every time Snake meets a hurdle, most of the time he gets beyond it in a satisfactory way to him and the player.
Raiden. Most of the time the opposite.
Dunno, that's how I saw it when I played it.
Yeah, I got the same impression as well.
I kinda thought of MGS3 to be fanservice to people who wanted to control Snake as he was promised in MGS2 through the Tanker chapter, and MGS1 as sort of the begining that was never able to go into certain depths.
My favorite so far is definitely MGS2. We'll see what MGS4 can do though.
Okay, I feel a lot of this has been twisted in an attempt to fit your argument. I can see where you're coming from, but it seems you're looking at it a little weird.
MGS1: Snake doesn't defeat Ocelot, Ninja, Octopus or Liquid. Simple fact.
MGS2: Raiden can't save Stillman or Olga, but they sacrifice themselves. Ames is killed by The Patriots. Raiden does destroy The Harrier, and I'll admit, he doesn't kill it's pilots, but if he did the plot would screech to a halt.
Jesus, have you been fucking brainwashed? Get over "Driving Off The Map". Kojima doesn't hate his fans you know. He made MGS3 because he wanted to delve into Big Boss' character and explain about the The Philosophers and set up some back story.
Not to get fussy but he does defeat them, even if he doesn't kill them. C'ept Octopus.
If he hadn't, he'd be dead.
Agree. The reason I enjoyed MGS3 so much is not because "wee, I'm playing as Snake again!", but because by the end you have a more complete look of the world of Metal Gear. You understand Boss's motivation.
And it sets up MGS 4.
hey don't knock black dove i mean the man is hammering a square peg into a round hole with some serious determination here
True, but then we could say the same thing for Raiden. But we're not. Which is my point.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
http://www.audioentropy.com/
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Philosophers to Patriots, how they were formed, who the originating members may be, and the fact that;
There should be a transcript of everything that goes on in Portable Ops on Gamefaq's I think. It's a really great story, one you would never expect from a portable game.
The thing about MGS3 is that it all only comes down in the final few cinematic sequences. It was awesome, but I didn't enjoy the experience as much as I did in MGS2 being anal raped (strangely) by the developer trying to make a point. It was also, innovative. The ending was puzzling, nothing was clear cut, and it was all fresh Raiden wise (strangely, considering when you break it down, you're playing an improved version of the previous game technically speaking as in cutscene > roam > boss > repeat).
I suppose, but he's still sort of ambiguous at the end. You don't necessarily feel that he decided he must turn against this concept of loyalty, but you do get the idea that he's on the crux. I guess it does really well signify the climax before his descent towards creating Outer Heaven, which Portable Ops shows.
EDIT:
I've never played Portable Ops either, but on youtube I found some video compilation of all the cutscenes and conversations that was really good. I would look for that if you could, because personally I love the style that they told the story in too.
I'm not completely disagreeing with that. I just don't see that everything the player does from then on is all part of a way of portraying the theme of the game. I mean, maybe to an extent, but some of the stuff in "Driving Off The Map" is just flat out ridiculous.
Taking Raiden's amazing feats in the game away from him is something I don't agree with either. I see it all as him developing his character and growing out from his VR Training he was put through by The Patriots and becoming himself. Sure, the entire Mahattan Incident was set up so he was, in a sense, supposed to succeed but I don't see it as any reason to take that away from him.
I really don't know how to go from here. I'm not saying that "Driving Off The Map" is wrong, just that I don't like it. But BlackDove seems to be attacking me for it, and I just don't know why. It's irritating, because I set this thread so I could discuss Metal Gear with people, not have people argue and bicker. I might just leave this thread and let you guys get on with it.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
I mean if we shouldn't discuss these things, then I just won't post. I don't have a pressing need or anything, I just like seeing what others have to say on the matter and putting my views with and against theirs, and going back and forth.
If that's not the intention here then I won't write anymore. After all is said and done, who gives a shit about Metal Gear. Don't want to antagonize or make people feel like they're being attacked by opposing their views.
If you guys want me to quit posting I'll quit.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
I personally recommend loading up demo 1 or 2 and swapping the Russian Special Forces for Male Office workers. I can't stop laughing at these guys with suits and glasses, night vision and AK's taking over a boat.
And as much as I love PO, I didn't enjoy the retcon they did on Gray Fox. I would have preferred them somehow retconning Schneider or something, if they insist on a ninja of sorts.
It's Frank Jaeger.
You are correct. As it stands currently I believe they've settled on Jaeger.
I do plan on getting MGS2 and MGS3 for my ps2 and Twin Snakes for my Wii, since I am getting a GC controller and memcard anyway for when I get Killer7.
I am really excited by the mgs4 stuff I have seen so far. Raiden is looking super awesome as a cyborg ninja death machine, but we really could have done without the goddam reacharound in the vamp fight. Seriously, that was the gayest thing I have ever seen in a videogame thing. I'm cool with gay dudes and everything, but man that was ridiculous.
Unless that was in PO or something.
So I beg your pardon, I'm getting confused with his nickname and the whole reason behind it.
Nobody knows his "real" name I guess, but he was called "Frank Hunter" because of the way he killed (like a hunter).
However, since he spoke a little German, his war buddies started calling him Frank Jaeger (german for Hunter) and so he was Frank Jaeger.
The backstory for Gray Fox however, is very similar to Raiden's.
You can see where they'd be wearing the same suit. It just wasn't apparent before Portable Ops.
edit: beaten by copypasta.
XBL - Follow Freeman
Don't quit posting here, I'd feel bad about that. You're an alright guy, but as Mush said "you just need to lay off with the "you're wrong and you should feel bad about it" sentiment". Not to sound whiny but when people have a go at me I can get kinda irked off.
Moving along...
My personal favourite is taking the scene where Solidus destroys the RAY's and replacing Solidus with an old lady. Childish, but excellent stuff.
Hey, I have a blog! (Actually being updated again!)
3DS: 0860-3240-2604
do you mean this?
it was apparently on xplay
Hell, Solidus is George Sears.
http://www.audioentropy.com/