Ok, so let me see if I understand this somewhat(MGS2 spoilers, spoiled because I don't know what you guys want):
The events of MGS1 were orchestrated by Solidus because he wanted REX to put the Patriots on edge, but actually the Patriots were secretly guiding it through Ocelot(why?). Solid comes in unexpected and ruins shit and the Patriots don't like this new hero. They try to get rid of Solid, sink a tanker, and build Big Shell to secretly build Arsenal to control digital info. Solidus tries to take Arsenal and get the Patriots' names to again put the Patriots on edge, but that was actually what the Patriots wanted because they were trying to make their own Solid Snake with Raiden and overall prove that they could control people, but Solid showed up again unexpected and messed up their plan again.
Also, was Rose real the whole time? It seems like toward the end, an AI is pretending to be her, but of course at the end there is a real Rose that is obviously aware of what's going on.
Rose is real up until the point where she tells you she's pregnant and gets cut off. From then on it's just the AI messing with you. I would presume that the Patriots simply set her free after Raiden completed his mission, not needing either of them anymore.
It's not that clear-cut. Before telling you she's pregnant, Rose says that you shouldn't sit so close to the TV or you could hurt your eyes. During Jejunum real Rose and AI Rose are flipping back and forth.
Also, Solid Snake was created by the Patriots IIRC. Shadow Moses served two purposes; destroy Metal Gear REX and test how much Snake's inferior biology hindered him in his fight against Liquid. Upon learning that Snake completely overcame his genetics, the Patriots moved on to culture and information as their primary form of control, with Raiden being their first guinea pig.
Ohhhh, ok this makes sense. But, they didn't plan on the world finding out about Solid Snake right? And Solidus leaked the info to the world when he was President of what happened, then hid before the Patriots could kill him. So, the Patriots just took advantage of this situation and set up the whole deal of MGS2 to kill Snake, make another Snake that they could control, kill Solidus, and increase their control on the world. But Snake lived and ruined their plan.
So I wonder what the Patriots are up to in MGS4? Liquid taking over Ocelot's body isn't part of their plan I imagine.
The Patriots plans weren't really ruined at all in MGS2. The Big Shell scenario wasn't intended to kill Snake, he was never expected to show up. The main purpose was to see if they could get their test subject(Raiden) to think, feel, and act the way they wanted him to...by controlling the people and events around him. They weren't really trying to make another Snake, that's just what Ocelot has been told. They were simply out to prove that they could pretty much completely control a person's life while keeping the illusion of free will. The Patriots had some setbacks, but overall the operation was a success, and at the end of MGS2, they essentially "won". Their experiment was a complete success.
I, too, am really wondering what they have up their sleeve in MGS4. We've got very little info about what kind of role they will play, and since this is supposed to be the grand finale I've got to believe it's going to be a big one.
Because I wanted it there? I plan on getting the hylian shield on my left foot along with my friend. I liked the design and I like the location, so that's how things end up on the foot.
Yeah i'm sorry passing up Pearl Jam live just to get MGS4 really late at night and then probably not playing it on that night is stupid.
Hell, passing up Pearl Jam live to play MGS4 for an entire day would be silly. A concert that good is like a once in a few years kind of thing. MGS4 can wait.
I've seen pearl jam live once. I swear to god it was probably the greatest concert I've ever been to. They are so much better live than they are in the studio. They're also one of the greatest live acts I've ever seen.
The only concert I can think of which even comes close to Pearl Jam Live is when I saw Radiohead live at bonnaroo. There There at dusk was amazing.
EDIT: Err... I think it'd be best to keep some things to myself...
I went to Coachella two months ago, and seeing Prince live beat anything i've ever seen. A magnificent show.
Urian on
0
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Ocelot being the son of The Sorrow and The Boss...where is that mentioned? I just finished MGS3 a little bit ago and I don't recall that at all.
Apparently it's in a Codec call, but not one I ever heard. I tried everyone in the spot where you're supposed to, and I just never get that call.
The codec call:
After you fight ocelot and the bee guy comes and you fall down into the shadow pit, call...uh...one of your codec people and they fill you in.
Can't remember the person, call all to be safe.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
0
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Could anyone tell me if the MGS Digital Graphic Novel on PSP has any interesting story elements in it that were not revealed within the actual games?
I was thinking of buying it (rebuying it, actually; got stolen along with like 8 other PSP games, before I ever had a chance to get more than 5 minutes into it), but it is now about $40 on Amazon...probably not worth paying that much for it, huh?
Word out on the street is that there's going to be a Metal Gear Solid 2: DGN. In Japan it's coming on DVD, but I guess the US it will probably be coming on PSP. AND I hear it has the full MGS: DGN on it too. If it does, I will purchase without hesitation. I fucking loved the cutscenes on Portable Ops, and a full thing of that would be great.
And I agree mandatory installs are lame. A nice option, one I wish the 360 had, but it should be an option.
Off the top of my head the original Ninja Gaiden on oXbox had reaaaaaaly long load times the first time you started it up because it was installing it to your drive. After that the game loaded much more quickly. However, if you played a few different games after that install was wiped for other things and the next time you loaded up NG it ended up having to "install" again.
I remember Chaos Theory and NG having them, but they were only two minutes long. It's there, but is that really comparable to the install times?
Anyway, when I get the PS3 later this month, I don't think I'll mind installs too much. I've waited this long, I don't care about waiting 20 minutes more before I start a game.
Ok, so let me see if I understand this somewhat(MGS2 spoilers, spoiled because I don't know what you guys want):
The events of MGS1 were orchestrated by Solidus because he wanted REX to put the Patriots on edge, but actually the Patriots were secretly guiding it through Ocelot(why?). Solid comes in unexpected and ruins shit and the Patriots don't like this new hero. They try to get rid of Solid, sink a tanker, and build Big Shell to secretly build Arsenal to control digital info. Solidus tries to take Arsenal and get the Patriots' names to again put the Patriots on edge, but that was actually what the Patriots wanted because they were trying to make their own Solid Snake with Raiden and overall prove that they could control people, but Solid showed up again unexpected and messed up their plan again.
Also, was Rose real the whole time? It seems like toward the end, an AI is pretending to be her, but of course at the end there is a real Rose that is obviously aware of what's going on.
Rose is real up until the point where she tells you she's pregnant and gets cut off. From then on it's just the AI messing with you. I would presume that the Patriots simply set her free after Raiden completed his mission, not needing either of them anymore.
It's not that clear-cut. Before telling you she's pregnant, Rose says that you shouldn't sit so close to the TV or you could hurt your eyes. During Jejunum real Rose and AI Rose are flipping back and forth.
Also, Solid Snake was created by the Patriots IIRC. Shadow Moses served two purposes; destroy Metal Gear REX and test how much Snake's inferior biology hindered him in his fight against Liquid. Upon learning that Snake completely overcame his genetics, the Patriots moved on to culture and information as their primary form of control, with Raiden being their first guinea pig.
Ohhhh, ok this makes sense. But, they didn't plan on the world finding out about Solid Snake right? And Solidus leaked the info to the world when he was President of what happened, then hid before the Patriots could kill him. So, the Patriots just took advantage of this situation and set up the whole deal of MGS2 to kill Snake, make another Snake that they could control, kill Solidus, and increase their control on the world. But Snake lived and ruined their plan.
So I wonder what the Patriots are up to in MGS4? Liquid taking over Ocelot's body isn't part of their plan I imagine.
The Patriots plans weren't really ruined at all in MGS2. The Big Shell scenario wasn't intended to kill Snake, he was never expected to show up. The main purpose was to see if they could get their test subject(Raiden) to think, feel, and act the way they wanted him to...by controlling the people and events around him. They weren't really trying to make another Snake, that's just what Ocelot has been told. They were simply out to prove that they could pretty much completely control a person's life while keeping the illusion of free will. The Patriots had some setbacks, but overall the operation was a success, and at the end of MGS2, they essentially "won". Their experiment was a complete success.
I, too, am really wondering what they have up their sleeve in MGS4. We've got very little info about what kind of role they will play, and since this is supposed to be the grand finale I've got to believe it's going to be a big one.
The feeling I get is that the world is essentially being ripped apart by a war between Liquid Ocelot and The Patriots.
Ok, so let me see if I understand this somewhat(MGS2 spoilers, spoiled because I don't know what you guys want):
The events of MGS1 were orchestrated by Solidus because he wanted REX to put the Patriots on edge, but actually the Patriots were secretly guiding it through Ocelot(why?). Solid comes in unexpected and ruins shit and the Patriots don't like this new hero. They try to get rid of Solid, sink a tanker, and build Big Shell to secretly build Arsenal to control digital info. Solidus tries to take Arsenal and get the Patriots' names to again put the Patriots on edge, but that was actually what the Patriots wanted because they were trying to make their own Solid Snake with Raiden and overall prove that they could control people, but Solid showed up again unexpected and messed up their plan again.
Also, was Rose real the whole time? It seems like toward the end, an AI is pretending to be her, but of course at the end there is a real Rose that is obviously aware of what's going on.
Rose is real up until the point where she tells you she's pregnant and gets cut off. From then on it's just the AI messing with you. I would presume that the Patriots simply set her free after Raiden completed his mission, not needing either of them anymore.
It's not that clear-cut. Before telling you she's pregnant, Rose says that you shouldn't sit so close to the TV or you could hurt your eyes. During Jejunum real Rose and AI Rose are flipping back and forth.
Also, Solid Snake was created by the Patriots IIRC. Shadow Moses served two purposes; destroy Metal Gear REX and test how much Snake's inferior biology hindered him in his fight against Liquid. Upon learning that Snake completely overcame his genetics, the Patriots moved on to culture and information as their primary form of control, with Raiden being their first guinea pig.
Ohhhh, ok this makes sense. But, they didn't plan on the world finding out about Solid Snake right? And Solidus leaked the info to the world when he was President of what happened, then hid before the Patriots could kill him. So, the Patriots just took advantage of this situation and set up the whole deal of MGS2 to kill Snake, make another Snake that they could control, kill Solidus, and increase their control on the world. But Snake lived and ruined their plan.
So I wonder what the Patriots are up to in MGS4? Liquid taking over Ocelot's body isn't part of their plan I imagine.
The Patriots plans weren't really ruined at all in MGS2. The Big Shell scenario wasn't intended to kill Snake, he was never expected to show up. The main purpose was to see if they could get their test subject(Raiden) to think, feel, and act the way they wanted him to...by controlling the people and events around him. They weren't really trying to make another Snake, that's just what Ocelot has been told. They were simply out to prove that they could pretty much completely control a person's life while keeping the illusion of free will. The Patriots had some setbacks, but overall the operation was a success, and at the end of MGS2, they essentially "won". Their experiment was a complete success.
I, too, am really wondering what they have up their sleeve in MGS4. We've got very little info about what kind of role they will play, and since this is supposed to be the grand finale I've got to believe it's going to be a big one.
They didn't win. Raiden broke out of their control completely. Admittedly, only after killing Solidus, but by that point, he had no illusion of free will anymore. Technically, the experiment as you are describing it failed.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Ok, so let me see if I understand this somewhat(MGS2 spoilers, spoiled because I don't know what you guys want):
The events of MGS1 were orchestrated by Solidus because he wanted REX to put the Patriots on edge, but actually the Patriots were secretly guiding it through Ocelot(why?). Solid comes in unexpected and ruins shit and the Patriots don't like this new hero. They try to get rid of Solid, sink a tanker, and build Big Shell to secretly build Arsenal to control digital info. Solidus tries to take Arsenal and get the Patriots' names to again put the Patriots on edge, but that was actually what the Patriots wanted because they were trying to make their own Solid Snake with Raiden and overall prove that they could control people, but Solid showed up again unexpected and messed up their plan again.
Also, was Rose real the whole time? It seems like toward the end, an AI is pretending to be her, but of course at the end there is a real Rose that is obviously aware of what's going on.
Rose is real up until the point where she tells you she's pregnant and gets cut off. From then on it's just the AI messing with you. I would presume that the Patriots simply set her free after Raiden completed his mission, not needing either of them anymore.
It's not that clear-cut. Before telling you she's pregnant, Rose says that you shouldn't sit so close to the TV or you could hurt your eyes. During Jejunum real Rose and AI Rose are flipping back and forth.
Also, Solid Snake was created by the Patriots IIRC. Shadow Moses served two purposes; destroy Metal Gear REX and test how much Snake's inferior biology hindered him in his fight against Liquid. Upon learning that Snake completely overcame his genetics, the Patriots moved on to culture and information as their primary form of control, with Raiden being their first guinea pig.
Ohhhh, ok this makes sense. But, they didn't plan on the world finding out about Solid Snake right? And Solidus leaked the info to the world when he was President of what happened, then hid before the Patriots could kill him. So, the Patriots just took advantage of this situation and set up the whole deal of MGS2 to kill Snake, make another Snake that they could control, kill Solidus, and increase their control on the world. But Snake lived and ruined their plan.
So I wonder what the Patriots are up to in MGS4? Liquid taking over Ocelot's body isn't part of their plan I imagine.
The Patriots plans weren't really ruined at all in MGS2. The Big Shell scenario wasn't intended to kill Snake, he was never expected to show up. The main purpose was to see if they could get their test subject(Raiden) to think, feel, and act the way they wanted him to...by controlling the people and events around him. They weren't really trying to make another Snake, that's just what Ocelot has been told. They were simply out to prove that they could pretty much completely control a person's life while keeping the illusion of free will. The Patriots had some setbacks, but overall the operation was a success, and at the end of MGS2, they essentially "won". Their experiment was a complete success.
I, too, am really wondering what they have up their sleeve in MGS4. We've got very little info about what kind of role they will play, and since this is supposed to be the grand finale I've got to believe it's going to be a big one.
They didn't win. Raiden broke out of their control completely. Admittedly, only after killing Solidus, but by that point, he had no illusion of free will anymore. Technically, the experiment as you are describing it failed.
Only because Snake fucked with it. Had he stayed out of the picture, as he was expected to, everything would've been fine.
Ocelot being the son of The Sorrow and The Boss...where is that mentioned? I just finished MGS3 a little bit ago and I don't recall that at all.
Apparently it's in a Codec call, but not one I ever heard. I tried everyone in the spot where you're supposed to, and I just never get that call.
The codec call:
After you fight ocelot and the bee guy comes and you fall down into the shadow pit, call...uh...one of your codec people and they fill you in.
Can't remember the person, call all to be safe.
I did. I got no such response from anyone.
UnbreakableVow on
0
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Ok, so let me see if I understand this somewhat(MGS2 spoilers, spoiled because I don't know what you guys want):
The events of MGS1 were orchestrated by Solidus because he wanted REX to put the Patriots on edge, but actually the Patriots were secretly guiding it through Ocelot(why?). Solid comes in unexpected and ruins shit and the Patriots don't like this new hero. They try to get rid of Solid, sink a tanker, and build Big Shell to secretly build Arsenal to control digital info. Solidus tries to take Arsenal and get the Patriots' names to again put the Patriots on edge, but that was actually what the Patriots wanted because they were trying to make their own Solid Snake with Raiden and overall prove that they could control people, but Solid showed up again unexpected and messed up their plan again.
Also, was Rose real the whole time? It seems like toward the end, an AI is pretending to be her, but of course at the end there is a real Rose that is obviously aware of what's going on.
Rose is real up until the point where she tells you she's pregnant and gets cut off. From then on it's just the AI messing with you. I would presume that the Patriots simply set her free after Raiden completed his mission, not needing either of them anymore.
It's not that clear-cut. Before telling you she's pregnant, Rose says that you shouldn't sit so close to the TV or you could hurt your eyes. During Jejunum real Rose and AI Rose are flipping back and forth.
Also, Solid Snake was created by the Patriots IIRC. Shadow Moses served two purposes; destroy Metal Gear REX and test how much Snake's inferior biology hindered him in his fight against Liquid. Upon learning that Snake completely overcame his genetics, the Patriots moved on to culture and information as their primary form of control, with Raiden being their first guinea pig.
Ohhhh, ok this makes sense. But, they didn't plan on the world finding out about Solid Snake right? And Solidus leaked the info to the world when he was President of what happened, then hid before the Patriots could kill him. So, the Patriots just took advantage of this situation and set up the whole deal of MGS2 to kill Snake, make another Snake that they could control, kill Solidus, and increase their control on the world. But Snake lived and ruined their plan.
So I wonder what the Patriots are up to in MGS4? Liquid taking over Ocelot's body isn't part of their plan I imagine.
The Patriots plans weren't really ruined at all in MGS2. The Big Shell scenario wasn't intended to kill Snake, he was never expected to show up. The main purpose was to see if they could get their test subject(Raiden) to think, feel, and act the way they wanted him to...by controlling the people and events around him. They weren't really trying to make another Snake, that's just what Ocelot has been told. They were simply out to prove that they could pretty much completely control a person's life while keeping the illusion of free will. The Patriots had some setbacks, but overall the operation was a success, and at the end of MGS2, they essentially "won". Their experiment was a complete success.
I, too, am really wondering what they have up their sleeve in MGS4. We've got very little info about what kind of role they will play, and since this is supposed to be the grand finale I've got to believe it's going to be a big one.
They didn't win. Raiden broke out of their control completely. Admittedly, only after killing Solidus, but by that point, he had no illusion of free will anymore. Technically, the experiment as you are describing it failed.
Only because Snake fucked with it. Had he stayed out of the picture, as he was expected to, everything would've been fine.
Yes. So the experiment failed.
Unbreakable vow:
Maybe call Eva?
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Ok, so let me see if I understand this somewhat(MGS2 spoilers, spoiled because I don't know what you guys want):
The events of MGS1 were orchestrated by Solidus because he wanted REX to put the Patriots on edge, but actually the Patriots were secretly guiding it through Ocelot(why?). Solid comes in unexpected and ruins shit and the Patriots don't like this new hero. They try to get rid of Solid, sink a tanker, and build Big Shell to secretly build Arsenal to control digital info. Solidus tries to take Arsenal and get the Patriots' names to again put the Patriots on edge, but that was actually what the Patriots wanted because they were trying to make their own Solid Snake with Raiden and overall prove that they could control people, but Solid showed up again unexpected and messed up their plan again.
Also, was Rose real the whole time? It seems like toward the end, an AI is pretending to be her, but of course at the end there is a real Rose that is obviously aware of what's going on.
Rose is real up until the point where she tells you she's pregnant and gets cut off. From then on it's just the AI messing with you. I would presume that the Patriots simply set her free after Raiden completed his mission, not needing either of them anymore.
It's not that clear-cut. Before telling you she's pregnant, Rose says that you shouldn't sit so close to the TV or you could hurt your eyes. During Jejunum real Rose and AI Rose are flipping back and forth.
Also, Solid Snake was created by the Patriots IIRC. Shadow Moses served two purposes; destroy Metal Gear REX and test how much Snake's inferior biology hindered him in his fight against Liquid. Upon learning that Snake completely overcame his genetics, the Patriots moved on to culture and information as their primary form of control, with Raiden being their first guinea pig.
Ohhhh, ok this makes sense. But, they didn't plan on the world finding out about Solid Snake right? And Solidus leaked the info to the world when he was President of what happened, then hid before the Patriots could kill him. So, the Patriots just took advantage of this situation and set up the whole deal of MGS2 to kill Snake, make another Snake that they could control, kill Solidus, and increase their control on the world. But Snake lived and ruined their plan.
So I wonder what the Patriots are up to in MGS4? Liquid taking over Ocelot's body isn't part of their plan I imagine.
The Patriots plans weren't really ruined at all in MGS2. The Big Shell scenario wasn't intended to kill Snake, he was never expected to show up. The main purpose was to see if they could get their test subject(Raiden) to think, feel, and act the way they wanted him to...by controlling the people and events around him. They weren't really trying to make another Snake, that's just what Ocelot has been told. They were simply out to prove that they could pretty much completely control a person's life while keeping the illusion of free will. The Patriots had some setbacks, but overall the operation was a success, and at the end of MGS2, they essentially "won". Their experiment was a complete success.
I, too, am really wondering what they have up their sleeve in MGS4. We've got very little info about what kind of role they will play, and since this is supposed to be the grand finale I've got to believe it's going to be a big one.
They didn't win. Raiden broke out of their control completely. Admittedly, only after killing Solidus, but by that point, he had no illusion of free will anymore. Technically, the experiment as you are describing it failed.
Only because Snake fucked with it. Had he stayed out of the picture, as he was expected to, everything would've been fine.
Yes. So the experiment failed.
Unbreakable vow:
Maybe call Eva?
No, because as soon as Snake leaves again Raiden goes right back to being a puppet. The final stage of the test was to see if Raiden would continue to follow orders even after he had full understanding that he was being controlled, and he did, even while JFK taunted him for it.
He asserts his free will afterwards what with the throwing away the dog tags and everything, but by that point the experiment has ended and the Patriots really don't care about him anymore.
Ocelot being the son of The Sorrow and The Boss...where is that mentioned? I just finished MGS3 a little bit ago and I don't recall that at all.
Apparently it's in a Codec call, but not one I ever heard. I tried everyone in the spot where you're supposed to, and I just never get that call.
The codec call:
After you fight ocelot and the bee guy comes and you fall down into the shadow pit, call...uh...one of your codec people and they fill you in.
Can't remember the person, call all to be safe.
I did. I got no such response from anyone.
You have to phone EVA.... a lot. She mentions that Ocelot is the son of "some legendary soldier" with a scar shaped like a Snake. Big Boss assumes it's a man.
Later, The Boss reveals to Big Boss that she has a scar shaped like a Snake.
Also, Solid Snake was created by the Patriots IIRC. Shadow Moses served two purposes; destroy Metal Gear REX and test how much Snake's inferior biology hindered him in his fight against Liquid. Upon learning that Snake completely overcame his genetics, the Patriots moved on to culture and information as their primary form of control, with Raiden being their first guinea pig.
No, Shadow Moses was orchestrated by Solidus Snake outside of the Patriots orders, hence them wanting to kill him after the incident and why he went into hiding.
A Shadow Moses recreation was created because of how it turned Snake into a hero in the publics eyes.
Ocelot being the son of The Sorrow and The Boss...where is that mentioned? I just finished MGS3 a little bit ago and I don't recall that at all.
Apparently it's in a Codec call, but not one I ever heard. I tried everyone in the spot where you're supposed to, and I just never get that call.
The codec call:
After you fight ocelot and the bee guy comes and you fall down into the shadow pit, call...uh...one of your codec people and they fill you in.
Can't remember the person, call all to be safe.
I did. I got no such response from anyone.
You have to phone EVA.... a lot. She mentions that Ocelot is the son of "some legendary soldier" with a scar shaped like a Snake. Big Boss assumes it's a man.
Later, The Boss reveals to Big Boss that she has a scar shaped like a Snake.
Also, Solid Snake was created by the Patriots IIRC. Shadow Moses served two purposes; destroy Metal Gear REX and test how much Snake's inferior biology hindered him in his fight against Liquid. Upon learning that Snake completely overcame his genetics, the Patriots moved on to culture and information as their primary form of control, with Raiden being their first guinea pig.
No, Shadow Moses was orchestrated by Solidus Snake outside of the Patriots orders, hence them wanting to kill him after the incident and why he went into hiding.
A Shadow Moses recreation was created because of how it turned Snake into a hero in the publics eyes.
What really? I thought Solidus had secretly designed REX, then the Patriots caught wind of it so created a situation which forced Solidus to order Snake to destroy it.
Ok, so let me see if I understand this somewhat(MGS2 spoilers, spoiled because I don't know what you guys want):
The events of MGS1 were orchestrated by Solidus because he wanted REX to put the Patriots on edge, but actually the Patriots were secretly guiding it through Ocelot(why?). Solid comes in unexpected and ruins shit and the Patriots don't like this new hero. They try to get rid of Solid, sink a tanker, and build Big Shell to secretly build Arsenal to control digital info. Solidus tries to take Arsenal and get the Patriots' names to again put the Patriots on edge, but that was actually what the Patriots wanted because they were trying to make their own Solid Snake with Raiden and overall prove that they could control people, but Solid showed up again unexpected and messed up their plan again.
Also, was Rose real the whole time? It seems like toward the end, an AI is pretending to be her, but of course at the end there is a real Rose that is obviously aware of what's going on.
Rose is real up until the point where she tells you she's pregnant and gets cut off. From then on it's just the AI messing with you. I would presume that the Patriots simply set her free after Raiden completed his mission, not needing either of them anymore.
It's not that clear-cut. Before telling you she's pregnant, Rose says that you shouldn't sit so close to the TV or you could hurt your eyes. During Jejunum real Rose and AI Rose are flipping back and forth.
Also, Solid Snake was created by the Patriots IIRC. Shadow Moses served two purposes; destroy Metal Gear REX and test how much Snake's inferior biology hindered him in his fight against Liquid. Upon learning that Snake completely overcame his genetics, the Patriots moved on to culture and information as their primary form of control, with Raiden being their first guinea pig.
Ohhhh, ok this makes sense. But, they didn't plan on the world finding out about Solid Snake right? And Solidus leaked the info to the world when he was President of what happened, then hid before the Patriots could kill him. So, the Patriots just took advantage of this situation and set up the whole deal of MGS2 to kill Snake, make another Snake that they could control, kill Solidus, and increase their control on the world. But Snake lived and ruined their plan.
So I wonder what the Patriots are up to in MGS4? Liquid taking over Ocelot's body isn't part of their plan I imagine.
The Patriots plans weren't really ruined at all in MGS2. The Big Shell scenario wasn't intended to kill Snake, he was never expected to show up. The main purpose was to see if they could get their test subject(Raiden) to think, feel, and act the way they wanted him to...by controlling the people and events around him. They weren't really trying to make another Snake, that's just what Ocelot has been told. They were simply out to prove that they could pretty much completely control a person's life while keeping the illusion of free will. The Patriots had some setbacks, but overall the operation was a success, and at the end of MGS2, they essentially "won". Their experiment was a complete success.
I, too, am really wondering what they have up their sleeve in MGS4. We've got very little info about what kind of role they will play, and since this is supposed to be the grand finale I've got to believe it's going to be a big one.
They didn't win. Raiden broke out of their control completely. Admittedly, only after killing Solidus, but by that point, he had no illusion of free will anymore. Technically, the experiment as you are describing it failed.
I dunno, they still got Raiden to think and act exactly how they wanted him do for the entire mission. Only at the end was Raiden "free" of them, and even then it could easily be because the Patriots no longer needed him and just let him go. I mean they did seem to pretty much just let Rose walk away, my assumtion is that they were done with Raiden. They proved they could manipulate him the whole experiment, and I don't really see why they wouldn't be able to trick Raiden again if they really wanted to, even though he now knows about them.
The Patriots proved they were able to control an environment and the people in it to the point where the entire script plays out, so I'd say they won. The only real reason Raiden "had no illusion of free will anymore" as he fought Solidus was because the AI told him about the S3 plan. And even when Raiden KNEW he was being manipulated, he still ended up having to kill Solidus and the Patriots' script still came to it's conclusion. In the end, not only did the Patriots prove they could manipulate a person how they wanted, they proved they could make the person do what they wanted even when the person is aware of the manipulation.
I don't really see how Raiden broke free. he did everything he was supposed to do then was seemingly discarded.
Does anyone have any real answer to the end piece of MGS2 where Raiden sees Rose. I'm confused as to what we know the real Rose had said at that point...
Tcheldor on
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Ocelot being the son of The Sorrow and The Boss...where is that mentioned? I just finished MGS3 a little bit ago and I don't recall that at all.
Apparently it's in a Codec call, but not one I ever heard. I tried everyone in the spot where you're supposed to, and I just never get that call.
The codec call:
After you fight ocelot and the bee guy comes and you fall down into the shadow pit, call...uh...one of your codec people and they fill you in.
Can't remember the person, call all to be safe.
I did. I got no such response from anyone.
You have to phone EVA.... a lot. She mentions that Ocelot is the son of "some legendary soldier" with a scar shaped like a Snake. Big Boss assumes it's a man.
Later, The Boss reveals to Big Boss that she has a scar shaped like a Snake.
Also, Solid Snake was created by the Patriots IIRC. Shadow Moses served two purposes; destroy Metal Gear REX and test how much Snake's inferior biology hindered him in his fight against Liquid. Upon learning that Snake completely overcame his genetics, the Patriots moved on to culture and information as their primary form of control, with Raiden being their first guinea pig.
No, Shadow Moses was orchestrated by Solidus Snake outside of the Patriots orders, hence them wanting to kill him after the incident and why he went into hiding.
A Shadow Moses recreation was created because of how it turned Snake into a hero in the publics eyes.
This. The Patriots didn't intend for Shadow Moses to happen (their original plan was to, more or less, take over the world using REX and the Genome Army).
However, it happened, and Ocelot learned from it that genetics wasn't all that there was to a person. Therefore, the Patriots reasonably deduced that the Genome Army had been a waste of time and shifted their attention to memetics. Which brings us to the Big Shell.
Ok, so let me see if I understand this somewhat(MGS2 spoilers, spoiled because I don't know what you guys want):
The events of MGS1 were orchestrated by Solidus because he wanted REX to put the Patriots on edge, but actually the Patriots were secretly guiding it through Ocelot(why?). Solid comes in unexpected and ruins shit and the Patriots don't like this new hero. They try to get rid of Solid, sink a tanker, and build Big Shell to secretly build Arsenal to control digital info. Solidus tries to take Arsenal and get the Patriots' names to again put the Patriots on edge, but that was actually what the Patriots wanted because they were trying to make their own Solid Snake with Raiden and overall prove that they could control people, but Solid showed up again unexpected and messed up their plan again.
Also, was Rose real the whole time? It seems like toward the end, an AI is pretending to be her, but of course at the end there is a real Rose that is obviously aware of what's going on.
Rose is real up until the point where she tells you she's pregnant and gets cut off. From then on it's just the AI messing with you. I would presume that the Patriots simply set her free after Raiden completed his mission, not needing either of them anymore.
It's not that clear-cut. Before telling you she's pregnant, Rose says that you shouldn't sit so close to the TV or you could hurt your eyes. During Jejunum real Rose and AI Rose are flipping back and forth.
Also, Solid Snake was created by the Patriots IIRC. Shadow Moses served two purposes; destroy Metal Gear REX and test how much Snake's inferior biology hindered him in his fight against Liquid. Upon learning that Snake completely overcame his genetics, the Patriots moved on to culture and information as their primary form of control, with Raiden being their first guinea pig.
Ohhhh, ok this makes sense. But, they didn't plan on the world finding out about Solid Snake right? And Solidus leaked the info to the world when he was President of what happened, then hid before the Patriots could kill him. So, the Patriots just took advantage of this situation and set up the whole deal of MGS2 to kill Snake, make another Snake that they could control, kill Solidus, and increase their control on the world. But Snake lived and ruined their plan.
So I wonder what the Patriots are up to in MGS4? Liquid taking over Ocelot's body isn't part of their plan I imagine.
The Patriots plans weren't really ruined at all in MGS2. The Big Shell scenario wasn't intended to kill Snake, he was never expected to show up. The main purpose was to see if they could get their test subject(Raiden) to think, feel, and act the way they wanted him to...by controlling the people and events around him. They weren't really trying to make another Snake, that's just what Ocelot has been told. They were simply out to prove that they could pretty much completely control a person's life while keeping the illusion of free will. The Patriots had some setbacks, but overall the operation was a success, and at the end of MGS2, they essentially "won". Their experiment was a complete success.
I, too, am really wondering what they have up their sleeve in MGS4. We've got very little info about what kind of role they will play, and since this is supposed to be the grand finale I've got to believe it's going to be a big one.
They didn't win. Raiden broke out of their control completely. Admittedly, only after killing Solidus, but by that point, he had no illusion of free will anymore. Technically, the experiment as you are describing it failed.
I dunno, they still got Raiden to think and act exactly how they wanted him do for the entire mission. Only at the end was Raiden "free" of them, and even then it could easily be because the Patriots no longer needed him and just let him go. I mean they did seem to pretty much just let Rose walk away, my assumtion is that they were done with Raiden. They proved they could manipulate him the whole experiment, and I don't really see why they wouldn't be able to trick Raiden again if they really wanted to, even though he now knows about them.
The Patriots proved they were able to control an environment and the people in it to the point where the entire script plays out, so I'd say they won. The only real reason Raiden "had no illusion of free will anymore" as he fought Solidus was because the AI told him about the S3 plan. And even when Raiden KNEW he was being manipulated, he still ended up having to kill Solidus and the Patriots' script still came to it's conclusion. In the end, not only did the Patriots prove they could manipulate a person how they wanted, they proved they could make the person do what they wanted even when the person is aware of the manipulation.
I don't really see how Raiden broke free. he did everything he was supposed to do then was seemingly discarded.
Right, that's what I was saying.
However, the Patriots' influence over Raiden does lapse for a while on Arsenal Gear. That's why he gives up on fighting the RAYs. Snake temporarily flushes out all of the garbage and forces Raiden to think for himself.
Story-wise I think I'm most excited to see Raiden's role in MGS4.
Does anyone have any real answer to the end piece of MGS2 where Raiden sees Rose. I'm confused as to what we know the real Rose had said at that point...
Everything that Rose said on the Codec was actually Rose, with the exception of the weird 4th wall "turn off the TV" stuff, and the stuff where she's explaining about the S3 plan.
Forever Zefirocloaked in the midnight glory of an event horizonRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
I wish/hope Solidus ends up being alive in MGS4 somehow. A back slice and fall wouldn't necessarily kill him. I want to see him get some revenge on the Patriots.
So now I've started MGS3. I'm only in a few screens, but it's pretty cool. I'm liking the CQC, though it's tough not pressing down Circle too hard. Can you eat birds or mushrooms?
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It would be pretty great if Solidus showed up as a quadraplegic. In some kind of advanced wheelchair that doesn't make him look too much like a weak old man (one he can move with his mind as opposed to a straw). Don't give him an action role, just have him be... well, there.
It would be pretty great if Solidus showed up as a quadraplegic. In some kind of advanced wheelchair that doesn't make him look too much like a weak old man (one he can move with his mind as opposed to a straw). Don't give him an action role, just have him be... well, there.
I'm instantly imaging a sort of Professor Xavier character, Except a lot more bad ass.
Also, is there any official news yet on region locking for MGO?
I dunno, they still got Raiden to think and act exactly how they wanted him do for the entire mission. Only at the end was Raiden "free" of them, and even then it could easily be because the Patriots no longer needed him and just let him go. I mean they did seem to pretty much just let Rose walk away, my assumtion is that they were done with Raiden. They proved they could manipulate him the whole experiment, and I don't really see why they wouldn't be able to trick Raiden again if they really wanted to, even though he now knows about them.
The Patriots proved they were able to control an environment and the people in it to the point where the entire script plays out, so I'd say they won. The only real reason Raiden "had no illusion of free will anymore" as he fought Solidus was because the AI told him about the S3 plan. And even when Raiden KNEW he was being manipulated, he still ended up having to kill Solidus and the Patriots' script still came to it's conclusion. In the end, not only did the Patriots prove they could manipulate a person how they wanted, they proved they could make the person do what they wanted even when the person is aware of the manipulation.
I don't really see how Raiden broke free. he did everything he was supposed to do then was seemingly discarded.
Nah, the experiment of manipulating someone with them having an illusion of free will about it stopped completely after the Rays. Well before solidus.
Saying they also wanted to prove they could manipulate a person anyway is a different experiment. One that would confound the first one, so I don't think that's what actually happened. That felt more like damage control to make sure he killed Solidus, because they know how to directly manipulate people, or force them against their will, into a situation very well. That's pretty easy to them. So they won that, but they didn't win the more insidious goal, because Snake interfered.
I'm mainly focusing on you saying "by the end of the game they won" when in fact by the end of the game they'd only won in the sense that they salvaged the assassination goal despite Snake's interference.
Snake is the central protagonist to the overal plot, and it makes sense to me that Kojima would use him in that fashion. It makes him the most important character in mgs2, more so than if you'd actually played him, so your way of thinking about it dilutes and nullifies him. I can't see that making it through Kojima's head, and this was his game.
Put it this way: by the way I put it, Snake has gone through Shadow Moses and denied the patriots genetic influences. And then he interfered with big shell, and helped someone else defy their memetic influences. He beat them in the genes and in the mind.
It does not make sense if they won in the end. The original experiment called for him to eliminate solidus and still think it was entirely his own free will and stay with them. But he didn't, instead he threw away the dog tags after they forced him into it. They only got one of the three. This is a testing failure.
Else it would be called Metal Gear Raiden. But it's still Metal Gear Solid, and for a good reason.
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HMV has announced that MGS series creator, Hideo Kojima and lead artist for the series, Yoji Shinkawa, will be making an appearance at the companies flagship Oxford Street store in London’s West End on Monday 2nd June. Hideo and Yoji will be at the store from 12 noon to meet fans and sign pre-release HMV exclusive sleeves of Metal Gear Solid 4.
If you are interested in meeting Mr. Kojima and Mr. Shinkawa, HMV have sent out a reminder to say space in the queue will be strictly limited, and only 300 sleeves will be available from the store on the day of the event from 9.00am. Apparently you can only get one of these sleeves by putting down a £5 deposit on the game on the day of the event.
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---
I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
I dunno, they still got Raiden to think and act exactly how they wanted him do for the entire mission. Only at the end was Raiden "free" of them, and even then it could easily be because the Patriots no longer needed him and just let him go. I mean they did seem to pretty much just let Rose walk away, my assumtion is that they were done with Raiden. They proved they could manipulate him the whole experiment, and I don't really see why they wouldn't be able to trick Raiden again if they really wanted to, even though he now knows about them.
The Patriots proved they were able to control an environment and the people in it to the point where the entire script plays out, so I'd say they won. The only real reason Raiden "had no illusion of free will anymore" as he fought Solidus was because the AI told him about the S3 plan. And even when Raiden KNEW he was being manipulated, he still ended up having to kill Solidus and the Patriots' script still came to it's conclusion. In the end, not only did the Patriots prove they could manipulate a person how they wanted, they proved they could make the person do what they wanted even when the person is aware of the manipulation.
I don't really see how Raiden broke free. he did everything he was supposed to do then was seemingly discarded.
Nah, the experiment of manipulating someone with them having an illusion of free will about it stopped completely after the Rays. Well before solidus.
Saying they also wanted to prove they could manipulate a person anyway is a different experiment. One that would confound the first one, so I don't think that's what actually happened. That felt more like damage control to make sure he killed Solidus, because they know how to directly manipulate people, or force them against their will, into a situation very well. That's pretty easy to them. So they won that, but they didn't win the more insidious goal, because Snake interfered.
I'm mainly focusing on you saying "by the end of the game they won" when in fact by the end of the game they'd only won in the sense that they salvaged the assassination goal despite Snake's interference.
Snake is the central protagonist to the overal plot, and it makes sense to me that Kojima would use him in that fashion. It makes him the most important character in mgs2, more so than if you'd actually played him, so your way of thinking about it dilutes and nullifies him. I can't see that making it through Kojima's head, and this was his game.
Put it this way: by the way I put it, Snake has gone through Shadow Moses and denied the patriots genetic influences. And then he interfered with big shell, and helped someone else defy their memetic influences. He beat them in the genes and in the mind.
It does not make sense if they won in the end. The original experiment called for him to eliminate solidus and still think it was entirely his own free will and stay with them. But he didn't, instead he threw away the dog tags after they forced him into it. They only got one of the three. This is a testing failure.
Else it would be called Metal Gear Raiden. But it's still Metal Gear Solid, and for a good reason.
The experiment was for Raiden to kill Solidus even when he knew he was being manipulated. It was the goal from the beginning. They "lost" only in the sense that Snake saw the Ocelot virus switcheroo coming and kept a copy of the virus - that's really the only part they hadn't planned for. They hadn't intended for Snake to show up at all, but he didn't actually interfere with the plan all that much.
I just beat MGS2 this instant. The end credits are playing on my TV right now. So please. :P
As an aside, YES guys. I FINALLY UNDERSTOOD IT ALL! I paid more attention than usual during the big speech, and while before I understood what the Patriots did and how they did it, even in that crazy second-degree 4th-wall-breaking way, the why had always escaped me. Until now.
Say someone has a stupid idea. Something like "evolution is wrong". The person may be unqualified to make such a claim, but they'll still selfishly convince themselves that it's true because it fits into their world-view. In the natural world, bad ideas like that would be filtered out by natural selection, but thanks to the Internet, that idiot can post on his blog that evolution is wrong, and "infect" other people with the idea, effectively spreading it like a virus. The Patriots see that happening a million times with a million different bad ideas, and see that it's blocking memetic evolution by keeping all these bad memes in the loop, preserving and spreading them, and they rightly see that as bad for the human species. So the idea is to block bad memes from spreading and only allowing good ones through, so that the human mind can progress and won't destroy themselves because of bad ideas.
The problem is that the Patriots offer themselves as the only criteria for what's a good idea or a bad idea, and the Patriots will necessarily selfishly create the "truth" they want, which is ironic considering that's exactly what they're accusing Raiden of doing (kinda wish Raiden had raised that point in the game, but oh well). Good points are made about our species being a stagnating mess as far as natural selection is concerned lately (a lot, a lot of bad memes and genes are allowed to survive, reproduce and spread, much more than would happen in the natural world). It's just that the solution the Patriots propose effectively replace Darwinian anarchy with Darwinian fascism, and that ain't so good either (remember that Hitler guy and what he tried to do? Yeah.)
I imagine MGS4 will have Snake finding a happy medium between the two (though the best one that the series has offered so far is Outer Heaven, a.k.a. a return to the survival of the fittest).
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited June 2008
So you are happy to spoil shit for the other people playing to catch up just because you finished this instant?
That's nice of you Sim.
My reply:
That's an entirely different statement to what Lockedon and Mushroom Pie said. In that case, if it's true, the experiment would be a success, but not for the reasons they stated, because it wouldn't be information control.
I don't think your take is right though.
I need to play the game again, because I don't remember them wanting him to kill Solidus despite knowing about it. That's not information control at ALL, that's just straight out brute force.
I don't care if you finished this second either. You think I don't know exactly how much information someone can take in at one time? Yeah you won't have processed it all properly for a while. It's less significant that you just finished than more, to me, since you'll still be thinking of the damage control statements the JFK AI was feeding Raiden. They're not very interesting statements at all.
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Posts
Apparently it's in a Codec call, but not one I ever heard. I tried everyone in the spot where you're supposed to, and I just never get that call.
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Because I wanted it there? I plan on getting the hylian shield on my left foot along with my friend. I liked the design and I like the location, so that's how things end up on the foot.
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edit: Oh fuck, top of the page.
At least it's extolling my hardcore-ness.
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I went to Coachella two months ago, and seeing Prince live beat anything i've ever seen. A magnificent show.
The codec call:
Can't remember the person, call all to be safe.
To be a member of Foothound. Duh.
Word out on the street is that there's going to be a Metal Gear Solid 2: DGN. In Japan it's coming on DVD, but I guess the US it will probably be coming on PSP. AND I hear it has the full MGS: DGN on it too. If it does, I will purchase without hesitation. I fucking loved the cutscenes on Portable Ops, and a full thing of that would be great.
I remember Chaos Theory and NG having them, but they were only two minutes long. It's there, but is that really comparable to the install times?
Anyway, when I get the PS3 later this month, I don't think I'll mind installs too much. I've waited this long, I don't care about waiting 20 minutes more before I start a game.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
http://www.audioentropy.com/
I did. I got no such response from anyone.
Unbreakable vow:
He asserts his free will afterwards what with the throwing away the dog tags and everything, but by that point the experiment has ended and the Patriots really don't care about him anymore.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
You have to phone EVA.... a lot. She mentions that Ocelot is the son of "some legendary soldier" with a scar shaped like a Snake. Big Boss assumes it's a man.
Later, The Boss reveals to Big Boss that she has a scar shaped like a Snake.
2 + 2 = 4.
No, Shadow Moses was orchestrated by Solidus Snake outside of the Patriots orders, hence them wanting to kill him after the incident and why he went into hiding.
A Shadow Moses recreation was created because of how it turned Snake into a hero in the publics eyes.
What really? I thought Solidus had secretly designed REX, then the Patriots caught wind of it so created a situation which forced Solidus to order Snake to destroy it.
I guess I need to replay MGS2.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
The Patriots proved they were able to control an environment and the people in it to the point where the entire script plays out, so I'd say they won. The only real reason Raiden "had no illusion of free will anymore" as he fought Solidus was because the AI told him about the S3 plan. And even when Raiden KNEW he was being manipulated, he still ended up having to kill Solidus and the Patriots' script still came to it's conclusion. In the end, not only did the Patriots prove they could manipulate a person how they wanted, they proved they could make the person do what they wanted even when the person is aware of the manipulation.
I don't really see how Raiden broke free. he did everything he was supposed to do then was seemingly discarded.
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This. The Patriots didn't intend for Shadow Moses to happen (their original plan was to, more or less, take over the world using REX and the Genome Army).
However, it happened, and Ocelot learned from it that genetics wasn't all that there was to a person. Therefore, the Patriots reasonably deduced that the Genome Army had been a waste of time and shifted their attention to memetics. Which brings us to the Big Shell.
However, the Patriots' influence over Raiden does lapse for a while on Arsenal Gear. That's why he gives up on fighting the RAYs. Snake temporarily flushes out all of the garbage and forces Raiden to think for himself.
Story-wise I think I'm most excited to see Raiden's role in MGS4.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Everything that Rose said on the Codec was actually Rose, with the exception of the weird 4th wall "turn off the TV" stuff, and the stuff where she's explaining about the S3 plan.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
So now I've started MGS3. I'm only in a few screens, but it's pretty cool. I'm liking the CQC, though it's tough not pressing down Circle too hard. Can you eat birds or mushrooms?
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I'm instantly imaging a sort of Professor Xavier character, Except a lot more bad ass.
Also, is there any official news yet on region locking for MGO?
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I mean, it could easily just mean the VA was brought back to do another character, like Jennifer Hale...but you never know...
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Solidus's voice is there, you're not hearing things. It's ripped directly from MGS2, though.
Damn.
Maybe he'll be Ocelot's other arm.
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Saying they also wanted to prove they could manipulate a person anyway is a different experiment. One that would confound the first one, so I don't think that's what actually happened. That felt more like damage control to make sure he killed Solidus, because they know how to directly manipulate people, or force them against their will, into a situation very well. That's pretty easy to them. So they won that, but they didn't win the more insidious goal, because Snake interfered.
I'm mainly focusing on you saying "by the end of the game they won" when in fact by the end of the game they'd only won in the sense that they salvaged the assassination goal despite Snake's interference.
Snake is the central protagonist to the overal plot, and it makes sense to me that Kojima would use him in that fashion. It makes him the most important character in mgs2, more so than if you'd actually played him, so your way of thinking about it dilutes and nullifies him. I can't see that making it through Kojima's head, and this was his game.
Put it this way: by the way I put it, Snake has gone through Shadow Moses and denied the patriots genetic influences. And then he interfered with big shell, and helped someone else defy their memetic influences. He beat them in the genes and in the mind.
It does not make sense if they won in the end. The original experiment called for him to eliminate solidus and still think it was entirely his own free will and stay with them. But he didn't, instead he threw away the dog tags after they forced him into it. They only got one of the three. This is a testing failure.
Else it would be called Metal Gear Raiden. But it's still Metal Gear Solid, and for a good reason.
It freaked me out when I read that half an hour ago, I thought MGS 4 was being released today. But, it's just a special London thing.
I've no idea which HMV store it was, there are probably more than one in London.. probably. Only one here in Leeds.
EDIT: After a quick Google, it's also Yoji Shinkawa too. And they're signing the game sleeves.
From here.
HMV has announced that MGS series creator, Hideo Kojima and lead artist for the series, Yoji Shinkawa, will be making an appearance at the companies flagship Oxford Street store in London’s West End on Monday 2nd June. Hideo and Yoji will be at the store from 12 noon to meet fans and sign pre-release HMV exclusive sleeves of Metal Gear Solid 4.
If you are interested in meeting Mr. Kojima and Mr. Shinkawa, HMV have sent out a reminder to say space in the queue will be strictly limited, and only 300 sleeves will be available from the store on the day of the event from 9.00am. Apparently you can only get one of these sleeves by putting down a £5 deposit on the game on the day of the event.
---
I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
The experiment was for Raiden to kill Solidus even when he knew he was being manipulated. It was the goal from the beginning. They "lost" only in the sense that Snake saw the Ocelot virus switcheroo coming and kept a copy of the virus - that's really the only part they hadn't planned for. They hadn't intended for Snake to show up at all, but he didn't actually interfere with the plan all that much.
I just beat MGS2 this instant. The end credits are playing on my TV right now. So please. :P
As an aside, YES guys. I FINALLY UNDERSTOOD IT ALL! I paid more attention than usual during the big speech, and while before I understood what the Patriots did and how they did it, even in that crazy second-degree 4th-wall-breaking way, the why had always escaped me. Until now.
Say someone has a stupid idea. Something like "evolution is wrong". The person may be unqualified to make such a claim, but they'll still selfishly convince themselves that it's true because it fits into their world-view. In the natural world, bad ideas like that would be filtered out by natural selection, but thanks to the Internet, that idiot can post on his blog that evolution is wrong, and "infect" other people with the idea, effectively spreading it like a virus. The Patriots see that happening a million times with a million different bad ideas, and see that it's blocking memetic evolution by keeping all these bad memes in the loop, preserving and spreading them, and they rightly see that as bad for the human species. So the idea is to block bad memes from spreading and only allowing good ones through, so that the human mind can progress and won't destroy themselves because of bad ideas.
The problem is that the Patriots offer themselves as the only criteria for what's a good idea or a bad idea, and the Patriots will necessarily selfishly create the "truth" they want, which is ironic considering that's exactly what they're accusing Raiden of doing (kinda wish Raiden had raised that point in the game, but oh well). Good points are made about our species being a stagnating mess as far as natural selection is concerned lately (a lot, a lot of bad memes and genes are allowed to survive, reproduce and spread, much more than would happen in the natural world). It's just that the solution the Patriots propose effectively replace Darwinian anarchy with Darwinian fascism, and that ain't so good either (remember that Hitler guy and what he tried to do? Yeah.)
I imagine MGS4 will have Snake finding a happy medium between the two (though the best one that the series has offered so far is Outer Heaven, a.k.a. a return to the survival of the fittest).
That's nice of you Sim.
My reply:
I don't think your take is right though.
I need to play the game again, because I don't remember them wanting him to kill Solidus despite knowing about it. That's not information control at ALL, that's just straight out brute force.
I don't care if you finished this second either. You think I don't know exactly how much information someone can take in at one time? Yeah you won't have processed it all properly for a while. It's less significant that you just finished than more, to me, since you'll still be thinking of the damage control statements the JFK AI was feeding Raiden. They're not very interesting statements at all.
MGS2 came out, what, like five or six years ago? i think it's okay. besides, the first post says that there's unmarked shit in this thread.
No. There's a reason people have been using spoilers heavily lately. Circumstances change. Don't be a selfish git.