The exercise was obviously a resounding success. Liquid Ocelot has the system, he says it works, and he implements it successfuly.
Yeah. Because there was no snake.
They couldn't have proven that with the Big Shell experiment though. So a second test was obviously close enough for them to run another one somewhere without any snake to prove it. Otherwise all their subjects would have immediatelly abandoned them.
It doesn't matter, the game is full of little logic loopholes like that one, I'm still gonna play it and love it.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
So you are happy to spoil shit for the other people playing to catch up just because you finished this instant?
That's nice of you Sim.
My reply:
That's an entirely different statement to what Lockedon and Mushroom Pie said. In that case, if it's true, the experiment would be a success, but not for the reasons they stated, because it wouldn't be information control.
I don't think your take is right though.
I need to play the game again, because I don't remember them wanting him to kill Solidus despite knowing about it. That's not information control at ALL, that's just straight out brute force.
I don't care if you finished this second either. You think I don't know exactly how much information someone can take in at one time? Yeah you won't have processed it all properly for a while. It's less significant that you just finished than more, to me, since you'll still be thinking of the damage control statements the JFK AI was feeding Raiden. They're not very interesting statements at all.
Maybe if you read the fucking OP you would see that MGS2 spoilers are free and open. It even says so in the title that there are spoilers.
So you are happy to spoil shit for the other people playing to catch up just because you finished this instant?
That's nice of you Sim.
My reply:
That's an entirely different statement to what Lockedon and Mushroom Pie said. In that case, if it's true, the experiment would be a success, but not for the reasons they stated, because it wouldn't be information control.
I don't think your take is right though.
I need to play the game again, because I don't remember them wanting him to kill Solidus despite knowing about it. That's not information control at ALL, that's just straight out brute force.
I don't care if you finished this second either. You think I don't know exactly how much information someone can take in at one time? Yeah you won't have processed it all properly for a while. It's less significant that you just finished than more, to me, since you'll still be thinking of the damage control statements the JFK AI was feeding Raiden. They're not very interesting statements at all.
Maybe if you read the fucking OP you would see that MGS2 spoilers are free and open. It even says so in the title that there are spoilers.
Yup, it sure does. My mistake. Sorry all.
I skimmed the op because I've played them all. Sometimes I miss things.
I still think circumstances are changed and maybe huge plot points should be more carefully handled for a little while, just out of courtesy, but I don't think people are selfish gits anymore.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Concerning spoilers. If you come into a thread thats on its 71st page abot a game that is in its 4th iteration (Solid Snake Series, yes, the 3S plan), you're getting no sympathy if you read a spoiler about the2nd or 1st games at least and even the third is a few years old by now. 48 years or so I think.
You know what I'd really like? A decent recap of the story so far before I play MGS 4. I don't remember a lot about the plot of MGS 2 except that it was very convoluted, and I haven't played any of the games in a few years. Oh internet, do you have anything like that available?
You know what I'd really like? A decent recap of the story so far before I play MGS 4. I don't remember a lot about the plot of MGS 2 except that it was very convoluted, and I haven't played any of the games in a few years. Oh internet, do you have anything like that available?
Try the Metal Gear Wiki, which I'm the head admin for, and had no intention of blatantly site whoring when I started this thread.
So you are happy to spoil shit for the other people playing to catch up just because you finished this instant?
That's nice of you Sim.
My reply:
That's an entirely different statement to what Lockedon and Mushroom Pie said. In that case, if it's true, the experiment would be a success, but not for the reasons they stated, because it wouldn't be information control.
I don't think your take is right though.
I need to play the game again, because I don't remember them wanting him to kill Solidus despite knowing about it. That's not information control at ALL, that's just straight out brute force.
I don't care if you finished this second either. You think I don't know exactly how much information someone can take in at one time? Yeah you won't have processed it all properly for a while. It's less significant that you just finished than more, to me, since you'll still be thinking of the damage control statements the JFK AI was feeding Raiden. They're not very interesting statements at all.
Oh, they most definately still wanted Raiden to kill Solidus. "Campbell" even basically tells him "complete your mission. Kill Solidus." Raiden killing Solidus was the final part of the experiment. And even when Raiden knows he's being manipulated, that doesn't stop the Patriots from manipulating him into a situation where he basically has to choose to kill Solidus. They created a situation where Solidus would kill Raiden if Radien didn't do what they wanted him to do...which would then result in the deaths of both Olga's child and Rose.
So even then, Raiden's "free will" does nothing to stop the Patriots from getting him to do what they want him to do. Even then, Raiden essentially just has the illusion of free will. Even when he's aware he's being manipulated, he can't stop them from manipulating him into finishing the mission. He was put in a position where if he didn't take out Solidus, he would lose the woman he loved. A love that was manufactured by the Patriots. Even then, the Patriots' had control over how he felt and what he chose to do because of the feelings they engineered him to have for Rose and Olga's child.
I guess what I'm saying is, even though they went the more tradtional blackmail route, forcing Raiden to go along with things to save the life of the woman he loved and an innocent child he wanted to protect...the very emotions he had for those two people were via the control and manipulation of the Patriots. He cared about them because the Patriots wanted him to. He kills Solidus because of these feelings, which still makes him a puppet in the end.
Him throwing away the dog tags doesn't really mean much, as the experiment is already over and the Patriots don't really seem to care about him anymore.
You know what I'd really like? A decent recap of the story so far before I play MGS 4. I don't remember a lot about the plot of MGS 2 except that it was very convoluted, and I haven't played any of the games in a few years. Oh internet, do you have anything like that available?
I think I got around three quarters of the way through MGS 2, before just going "meh" and put it down.
To this day I have never completed MGS 2. It bored me so much that I skipped what is apparently a very good game in MGS 3.
I'm kind of hyped for MGS 4 so it'd be nice to have some "the story so far" or something.
GrimReaper on
PSN | Steam
---
I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
You know what I'd really like? A decent recap of the story so far before I play MGS 4. I don't remember a lot about the plot of MGS 2 except that it was very convoluted, and I haven't played any of the games in a few years. Oh internet, do you have anything like that available?
I think I got around three quarters of the way through MGS 2, before just going "meh" and put it down.
To this day I have never completed MGS 2. It bored me so much that I skipped what is apparently a very good game in MGS 3.
I'm kind of hyped for MGS 4 so it'd be nice to have some "the story so far" or something.
Man, when I got 3/4s of the way through MGS2, I couldn't put it down. The last couple hours have this addictive quality where I just NEED to see what's going to happen next, every single time I play through it.
You know what I'd really like? A decent recap of the story so far before I play MGS 4. I don't remember a lot about the plot of MGS 2 except that it was very convoluted, and I haven't played any of the games in a few years. Oh internet, do you have anything like that available?
Try the Metal Gear Wiki, which I'm the head admin for, and had no intention of blatantly site whoring when I started this thread.
But yeah, we kick ass and we have tons of info.
K, that shit looks epic. That said, I can't respect anyone who calls Laughing Octopus
an old enemy of Snake. He's either just spoiled a huge plot point or is a tard.
You know what I'd really like? A decent recap of the story so far before I play MGS 4. I don't remember a lot about the plot of MGS 2 except that it was very convoluted, and I haven't played any of the games in a few years. Oh internet, do you have anything like that available?
I think I got around three quarters of the way through MGS 2, before just going "meh" and put it down.
To this day I have never completed MGS 2. It bored me so much that I skipped what is apparently a very good game in MGS 3.
I'm kind of hyped for MGS 4 so it'd be nice to have some "the story so far" or something.
You really need to play MGS3. It's fantastic and so much better than the second game. I may like it even more than the first game. You've got ten days until MGS4, so go go go!
Dashui on
Xbox Live, PSN & Origin: Vacorsis 3DS: 2638-0037-166
0
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
So you are happy to spoil shit for the other people playing to catch up just because you finished this instant?
That's nice of you Sim.
My reply:
That's an entirely different statement to what Lockedon and Mushroom Pie said. In that case, if it's true, the experiment would be a success, but not for the reasons they stated, because it wouldn't be information control.
I don't think your take is right though.
I need to play the game again, because I don't remember them wanting him to kill Solidus despite knowing about it. That's not information control at ALL, that's just straight out brute force.
I don't care if you finished this second either. You think I don't know exactly how much information someone can take in at one time? Yeah you won't have processed it all properly for a while. It's less significant that you just finished than more, to me, since you'll still be thinking of the damage control statements the JFK AI was feeding Raiden. They're not very interesting statements at all.
Oh, they most definately still wanted Raiden to kill Solidus. "Campbell" even basically tells him "complete your mission. Kill Solidus." Raiden killing Solidus was the final part of the experiment. And even when Raiden knows he's being manipulated, that doesn't stop the Patriots from manipulating him into a situation where he basically has to choose to kill Solidus. They created a situation where Solidus would kill Raiden if Radien didn't do what they wanted him to do...which would then result in the deaths of both Olga's child and Rose.
So even then, Raiden's "free will" does nothing to stop the Patriots from getting him to do what they want him to do. Even then, Raiden essentially just has the illusion of free will. Even when he's aware he's being manipulated, he can't stop them from manipulating him into finishing the mission. He was put in a position where if he didn't take out Solidus, he would lose the woman he loved. A love that was manufactured by the Patriots. Even then, the Patriots' had control over how he felt and what he chose to do because of the feelings they engineered him to have for Rose and Olga's child.
I guess what I'm saying is, even though they went the more tradtional blackmail route, forcing Raiden to go along with things to save the life of the woman he loved and an innocent child he wanted to protect...the very emotions he had for those two people were via the control and manipulation of the Patriots. He cared about them because the Patriots wanted him to. He kills Solidus because of these feelings, which still makes him a puppet in the end.
Him throwing away the dog tags doesn't really mean much, as the experiment is already over and the Patriots don't really seem to care about him anymore.
This is brute force. Not free will. He has no free will if the only option is death.
You are kinda confusing concepts a bit here, and your logic is all over the place, but I don't have the time to unravel it, it's going to lead to more timewasting than even I can put up with with my assignments due. So we can either put the discussion on hold for a few days or just agree to disagree.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
As an aside, YES guys. I FINALLY UNDERSTOOD IT ALL! I paid more attention than usual during the big speech, and while before I understood what the Patriots did and how they did it, even in that crazy second-degree 4th-wall-breaking way, the why had always escaped me. Until now.
Say someone has a stupid idea. Something like "evolution is wrong". The person may be unqualified to make such a claim, but they'll still selfishly convince themselves that it's true because it fits into their world-view. In the natural world, bad ideas like that would be filtered out by natural selection, but thanks to the Internet, that idiot can post on his blog that evolution is wrong, and "infect" other people with the idea, effectively spreading it like a virus. The Patriots see that happening a million times with a million different bad ideas, and see that it's blocking memetic evolution by keeping all these bad memes in the loop, preserving and spreading them, and they rightly see that as bad for the human species. So the idea is to block bad memes from spreading and only allowing good ones through, so that the human mind can progress and won't destroy themselves because of bad ideas.
The problem is that the Patriots offer themselves as the only criteria for what's a good idea or a bad idea, and the Patriots will necessarily selfishly create the "truth" they want, which is ironic considering that's exactly what they're accusing Raiden of doing (kinda wish Raiden had raised that point in the game, but oh well). Good points are made about our species being a stagnating mess as far as natural selection is concerned lately (a lot, a lot of bad memes and genes are allowed to survive, reproduce and spread, much more than would happen in the natural world). It's just that the solution the Patriots propose effectively replace Darwinian anarchy with Darwinian fascism, and that ain't so good either (remember that Hitler guy and what he tried to do? Yeah.)
I imagine MGS4 will have Snake finding a happy medium between the two (though the best one that the series has offered so far is Outer Heaven, a.k.a. a return to the survival of the fittest).
See, this is why I didn't bother finishing MGS2. The story was such bullshit.
The internet, more than any other medium, allows for a true marketplace of ideas. Why? Because the common person has access to the means of producing and publishing their ideas. Anyone can sign up for MySpace, or Blogger, or whatever else. It's not limited to the wealthy or powerful. Everyone can participate.
Yes, 'bad' ideas linger, but they've lingered anyway. Some people still think that the Free Masons rule the world. Some people still think that the Rapture is right around the corner. And some people still think that Michael Jackson is normal. These thoughts would remain whether or not our current technology used to share them existed or not.
No, the internet merely allows like-minded people and ideas to cluster. In that way, it's actually easier to rally against them because they exist in concrete virtual locations - particular websites, message boards, blogs, that sort of thing. It's far easier to combat a bad idea when it's there for all to see rather than festering in the minds of those who may never feel the courage to express the idea to the public at large.
So, to use your example of a guy who thinks "evolution is wrong," I'd rather they post that thought for all to see than to keep it secret and infect their children with it, and have it go on down the line in the shadows. Like I said before, ideas like that would exist anyway. The technology merely allows it to enter the marketplace of ideas where it can be judged on its own merits. Yes, it may 'infect' others, but another group will spread the word that this is a bad idea. And I sincerely doubt that the 'bad' infection would outweigh/outperform the 'good' infection, based on the innate quality of the idea itself.
As for the rest, the Patriots' argument seems to be simply based around the signal-to-noise ratio of the internet, which is a pretty weak foundation to rest "let's take over the world" on.
Now, if they wanted to argue against the institutions that spread information (schools, church, government, etc), then that could've been interesting. Instead, their argument is basically "Too much YouTube and no beer make Homer go crazy."
Nightslyr on
PSN/XBL/Nintendo/Origin/Steam: Nightslyr 3DS: 1607-1682-2948 Switch: SW-3515-0057-3813 FF XIV: Q'vehn Tia
So you are happy to spoil shit for the other people playing to catch up just because you finished this instant?
That's nice of you Sim.
My reply:
That's an entirely different statement to what Lockedon and Mushroom Pie said. In that case, if it's true, the experiment would be a success, but not for the reasons they stated, because it wouldn't be information control.
I don't think your take is right though.
I need to play the game again, because I don't remember them wanting him to kill Solidus despite knowing about it. That's not information control at ALL, that's just straight out brute force.
I don't care if you finished this second either. You think I don't know exactly how much information someone can take in at one time? Yeah you won't have processed it all properly for a while. It's less significant that you just finished than more, to me, since you'll still be thinking of the damage control statements the JFK AI was feeding Raiden. They're not very interesting statements at all.
Oh, they most definately still wanted Raiden to kill Solidus. "Campbell" even basically tells him "complete your mission. Kill Solidus." Raiden killing Solidus was the final part of the experiment. And even when Raiden knows he's being manipulated, that doesn't stop the Patriots from manipulating him into a situation where he basically has to choose to kill Solidus. They created a situation where Solidus would kill Raiden if Radien didn't do what they wanted him to do...which would then result in the deaths of both Olga's child and Rose.
So even then, Raiden's "free will" does nothing to stop the Patriots from getting him to do what they want him to do. Even then, Raiden essentially just has the illusion of free will. Even when he's aware he's being manipulated, he can't stop them from manipulating him into finishing the mission. He was put in a position where if he didn't take out Solidus, he would lose the woman he loved. A love that was manufactured by the Patriots. Even then, the Patriots' had control over how he felt and what he chose to do because of the feelings they engineered him to have for Rose and Olga's child.
I guess what I'm saying is, even though they went the more tradtional blackmail route, forcing Raiden to go along with things to save the life of the woman he loved and an innocent child he wanted to protect...the very emotions he had for those two people were via the control and manipulation of the Patriots. He cared about them because the Patriots wanted him to. He kills Solidus because of these feelings, which still makes him a puppet in the end.
Him throwing away the dog tags doesn't really mean much, as the experiment is already over and the Patriots don't really seem to care about him anymore.
This is brute force. Not free will. He has no free will if the only option is death.
You are kinda confusing concepts a bit here, and your logic is all over the place, but I don't have the time to unravel it, it's going to lead to more timewasting than even I can put up with with my assignments due. So we can either put the discussion on hold for a few days or just agree to disagree.
No, he's right. It would be brute force if it weren't for the fact that the patriots basically manufactured everything that happened, including the criteria for how the blackmail part was to go down. Raiden wasn't figuring out about the patriots by himself, each person who told him about them was put there by the patriots themselves, they even gave him the virus to destroy GW. Raiden was supposed to not want to kill Solidus in the end. The patriots wanted him to be in a position where he wanted to oppose the patriots by his own free will but he just couldn't, proving that they could manipulate him even if he was in a situation where he could be directly opposed to being controlled by them. Note that Raiden knew absolutely nothing about Olga or her baby, he had no reason to believe that the baby even existed and that Olga wasn't just telling him that story to screw with him. Additionally, at that point Raiden has reason to believe that Rose doesn't even exist, and he even expresses that concern to Snake. Snake also tells Raiden that GW couldn't possibly have Rose hostage because he's not a real person, and I honestly believe that Rose was never in any danger. The pretenses for the blackmail are completely constructed by the patriots, and they use them to emotionally manipulate Raiden into making a dumb decision. Raiden doesn't have to kill Solidus, the patriots never imply that they're going to kill Raiden if he doesn't comply, in fact the criteria for whether or not Rose and the baby were supposed to live or die is based on whether Raiden dies or not. Raiden had a few choices open to him, he could've turned his back on the woman who had been manipulating him into loving her, he could've said "screw it" to the story about Olga's baby, he could've joined Solidus (though I don't know if Solidus would've accepted), or he could've tried to run away. In actuality, Raiden himself still wants to kill Solidus at the end. There's not a moment where he doubts the fact that he wants Solidus dead, largely because what a huge dick (understatement) Solidus was to Raiden in the past (which is why the patriots chose him).
Honestly, the only thing that Snake does is help Raiden survive to accomplish the patriots goal. He might plant some new ideas in Raiden's head when everything is said and done, but the ironic thing is that Raiden actually had no chance of surviving the whole ordeal if it weren't for Snake intervening. I mean, even Olga couldn't help Raiden the way Snake ending up doing so. I think the real significance of Snake is that after the patriots are successful in manipulating Raiden, Raiden decides to cut himself off from the patriots. Without Snake, there's a possibility that JFK could've convinced Raiden that aiding the patriots was the best for everyone, instead of Raiden realizing that he needs to defend the right of people to pass on the information that they want to. The game never states whether or not Raiden was supposed to fall into the patriots hands after the experiment was over, but as far as manipulating Raiden into defeating Solidus, the whole experiment was a huge success for the patriots and I think that in MGS4 we're going to be seeing a lot of the patriots doing the same sort of thing to soldiers on the battlefield on a wide scale.
By the way, I think that everything that the JFK AI is telling Raiden is more or less true. This is under the precept that they're trying to manipulate him even though he knows the truth, though. I buy into it mostly because everything the AI says makes cohesive sense according to the patriot's actions. The only thing that's questionable is whether or not they're controlling the masses because they honestly believe that they know what's best for everyone, or because they want to secure power for themselves, each is equally plausible and both could be true. I don't think that the patriots had actually lost any control by the end of MGS2, remember that they, not Solidus, rammed Arsenal Gear into Manhattan, that was deliberate. The only thing that I don't think they were anticipating in the end was Liquid taking over Ocelot's body and Snake showing up.
As an aside, YES guys. I FINALLY UNDERSTOOD IT ALL! I paid more attention than usual during the big speech, and while before I understood what the Patriots did and how they did it, even in that crazy second-degree 4th-wall-breaking way, the why had always escaped me. Until now.
Say someone has a stupid idea. Something like "evolution is wrong". The person may be unqualified to make such a claim, but they'll still selfishly convince themselves that it's true because it fits into their world-view. In the natural world, bad ideas like that would be filtered out by natural selection, but thanks to the Internet, that idiot can post on his blog that evolution is wrong, and "infect" other people with the idea, effectively spreading it like a virus. The Patriots see that happening a million times with a million different bad ideas, and see that it's blocking memetic evolution by keeping all these bad memes in the loop, preserving and spreading them, and they rightly see that as bad for the human species. So the idea is to block bad memes from spreading and only allowing good ones through, so that the human mind can progress and won't destroy themselves because of bad ideas.
The problem is that the Patriots offer themselves as the only criteria for what's a good idea or a bad idea, and the Patriots will necessarily selfishly create the "truth" they want, which is ironic considering that's exactly what they're accusing Raiden of doing (kinda wish Raiden had raised that point in the game, but oh well). Good points are made about our species being a stagnating mess as far as natural selection is concerned lately (a lot, a lot of bad memes and genes are allowed to survive, reproduce and spread, much more than would happen in the natural world). It's just that the solution the Patriots propose effectively replace Darwinian anarchy with Darwinian fascism, and that ain't so good either (remember that Hitler guy and what he tried to do? Yeah.)
I imagine MGS4 will have Snake finding a happy medium between the two (though the best one that the series has offered so far is Outer Heaven, a.k.a. a return to the survival of the fittest).
See, this is why I didn't bother finishing MGS2. The story was such bullshit.
The internet, more than any other medium, allows for a true marketplace of ideas. Why? Because the common person has access to the means of producing and publishing their ideas. Anyone can sign up for MySpace, or Blogger, or whatever else. It's not limited to the wealthy or powerful. Everyone can participate.
Yes, 'bad' ideas linger, but they've lingered anyway. Some people still think that the Free Masons rule the world. Some people still think that the Rapture is right around the corner. And some people still think that Michael Jackson is normal. These thoughts would remain whether or not our current technology used to share them existed or not.
No, the internet merely allows like-minded people and ideas to cluster. In that way, it's actually easier to rally against them because they exist in concrete virtual locations - particular websites, message boards, blogs, that sort of thing. It's far easier to combat a bad idea when it's there for all to see rather than festering in the minds of those who may never feel the courage to express the idea to the public at large.
So, to use your example of a guy who thinks "evolution is wrong," I'd rather they post that thought for all to see than to keep it secret and infect their children with it, and have it go on down the line in the shadows. Like I said before, ideas like that would exist anyway. The technology merely allows it to enter the marketplace of ideas where it can be judged on its own merits. Yes, it may 'infect' others, but another group will spread the word that this is a bad idea. And I sincerely doubt that the 'bad' infection would outweigh/outperform the 'good' infection, based on the innate quality of the idea itself.
As for the rest, the Patriots' argument seems to be simply based around the signal-to-noise ratio of the internet, which is a pretty weak foundation to rest "let's take over the world" on.
Now, if they wanted to argue against the institutions that spread information (schools, church, government, etc), then that could've been interesting. Instead, their argument is basically "Too much YouTube and no beer make Homer go crazy."
I agree Night, only you've got one thing majorly wrong. That's not a flaw in the storyline, that's an intentional flaw in the patriot's mentality. Remember the patriots are the villians, they're supposed to be wrong. I think the storyline is actually pretty well crafted, and speaks about information control, censorship, and people who believe that they are qualified to decide what is good information and what is bad information and whether or not a free market place of ideas will actually allow the best ideas to thrive or whether or not people are incapable of choosing the best ideas on their own. The story is actually pretty powerful, and I think you're not giving it credit, the game is about fighting the mentality of the patriots.
Exactly. We're SUPPOSED to think the Patriots are wrong. We're supposed to see big flaws in their logic. because they're the bad guys and if they made sense then there wouldn't really be much motivation to stop them and take them down. The Patriots are essentially full of themselves and think they know what's right and that any ideas contrary to their own should be silenced. They're basically insane. That's how it came across to me, anyway.
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited June 2008
Lockedon, you need to take clarity lesson's from alkaline, because I understood everything he just said perfectly and it was really hard to work out what you were saying because you mix up concepts willynilly.
Nevertheless, I still disagree, mainly because it denies the strength of snake and him defying memetics as well as his genes is too strong a "pet theory" for me to pass up. But I admit that's not an unbiased theory grounded in the information available in the text, so I'll deny it's validity for now until I can construct a better justification.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
0
MongerI got the ham stink.Dallas, TXRegistered Userregular
Exactly. We're SUPPOSED to think the Patriots are wrong. We're supposed to see big flaws in their logic. because they're the bad guys and if they made sense then there wouldn't really be much motivation to stop them and take them down. The Patriots are essentially full of themselves and think they know what's right and that any ideas contrary to their own should be silenced. They're basically insane. That's how it came across to me, anyway.
If you really want to get down to the point, I think it has more to do with the fact that we're human and we like free will (see: Raiden). The Patriots aren't. Well not now, anyway. They like structure and predictability, and make it their duty to change the world accordingly.
Really, if it wasn't obvious that you were supposed to disagree with them, then I suspect that you are an undercover agent for the mechanoid agenda, and I, for one, welcome our new robotic overlords.
As an aside, YES guys. I FINALLY UNDERSTOOD IT ALL! I paid more attention than usual during the big speech, and while before I understood what the Patriots did and how they did it, even in that crazy second-degree 4th-wall-breaking way, the why had always escaped me. Until now.
Say someone has a stupid idea. Something like "evolution is wrong". The person may be unqualified to make such a claim, but they'll still selfishly convince themselves that it's true because it fits into their world-view. In the natural world, bad ideas like that would be filtered out by natural selection, but thanks to the Internet, that idiot can post on his blog that evolution is wrong, and "infect" other people with the idea, effectively spreading it like a virus. The Patriots see that happening a million times with a million different bad ideas, and see that it's blocking memetic evolution by keeping all these bad memes in the loop, preserving and spreading them, and they rightly see that as bad for the human species. So the idea is to block bad memes from spreading and only allowing good ones through, so that the human mind can progress and won't destroy themselves because of bad ideas.
The problem is that the Patriots offer themselves as the only criteria for what's a good idea or a bad idea, and the Patriots will necessarily selfishly create the "truth" they want, which is ironic considering that's exactly what they're accusing Raiden of doing (kinda wish Raiden had raised that point in the game, but oh well). Good points are made about our species being a stagnating mess as far as natural selection is concerned lately (a lot, a lot of bad memes and genes are allowed to survive, reproduce and spread, much more than would happen in the natural world). It's just that the solution the Patriots propose effectively replace Darwinian anarchy with Darwinian fascism, and that ain't so good either (remember that Hitler guy and what he tried to do? Yeah.)
I imagine MGS4 will have Snake finding a happy medium between the two (though the best one that the series has offered so far is Outer Heaven, a.k.a. a return to the survival of the fittest).
See, this is why I didn't bother finishing MGS2. The story was such bullshit.
The internet, more than any other medium, allows for a true marketplace of ideas. Why? Because the common person has access to the means of producing and publishing their ideas. Anyone can sign up for MySpace, or Blogger, or whatever else. It's not limited to the wealthy or powerful. Everyone can participate.
Yes, 'bad' ideas linger, but they've lingered anyway. Some people still think that the Free Masons rule the world. Some people still think that the Rapture is right around the corner. And some people still think that Michael Jackson is normal. These thoughts would remain whether or not our current technology used to share them existed or not.
No, the internet merely allows like-minded people and ideas to cluster. In that way, it's actually easier to rally against them because they exist in concrete virtual locations - particular websites, message boards, blogs, that sort of thing. It's far easier to combat a bad idea when it's there for all to see rather than festering in the minds of those who may never feel the courage to express the idea to the public at large.
So, to use your example of a guy who thinks "evolution is wrong," I'd rather they post that thought for all to see than to keep it secret and infect their children with it, and have it go on down the line in the shadows. Like I said before, ideas like that would exist anyway. The technology merely allows it to enter the marketplace of ideas where it can be judged on its own merits. Yes, it may 'infect' others, but another group will spread the word that this is a bad idea. And I sincerely doubt that the 'bad' infection would outweigh/outperform the 'good' infection, based on the innate quality of the idea itself.
As for the rest, the Patriots' argument seems to be simply based around the signal-to-noise ratio of the internet, which is a pretty weak foundation to rest "let's take over the world" on.
Now, if they wanted to argue against the institutions that spread information (schools, church, government, etc), then that could've been interesting. Instead, their argument is basically "Too much YouTube and no beer make Homer go crazy."
Bad ideas may linger, but people would ultimately be fearful of expressing them if they didn't think that anyone else held that same idea. The internet and things like that would bring these bad ideas out in people that normally wouldn't mention them or spread them around. So, the Patriots do have a sort of point in that. And, remember, it's not just the internet. From what I remember of the speech, it's pretty much anything and everything that can be changed. Aren't scientific reports mentioned as an example of what they've censored before?
Also, the Patriots would never want a true marketplace of ideas. It gives power to Joe Average. The Patriots exist to try and take power away from Joe Average. He is dumb, and shouldn't be in charge of anything. Also, remember that the Patriots don't need to take over the world with Arsenal Gear. They've already done that. They already control pretty much everything that matters. Arsenal Gear is just another way of beating down the masses. It's another means of control.
Lockedon, you need to take clarity lesson's from alkaline, because I understood everything he just said perfectly and it was really hard to work out what you were saying because you mix up concepts willynilly.
Nevertheless, I still disagree, mainly because it denies the strength of snake and him defying memetics as well as his genes is too strong a "pet theory" for me to pass up. But I admit that's not an unbiased theory grounded in the information available in the text, so I'll deny it's validity for now until I can construct a better justification.
Maybe if you told me what exactly I've said that you don't understand, it would be easier for me to clarify. no one else seems to be having any trouble understanding me.
Exactly. We're SUPPOSED to think the Patriots are wrong. We're supposed to see big flaws in their logic. because they're the bad guys and if they made sense then there wouldn't really be much motivation to stop them and take them down. The Patriots are essentially full of themselves and think they know what's right and that any ideas contrary to their own should be silenced. They're basically insane. That's how it came across to me, anyway.
If you really want to get down to the point, I think it has more to do with the fact that we're human and we like free will (see: Raiden). The Patriots aren't. Well not now, anyway. They like structure and predictability, and make it their duty to change the world accordingly.
Really, if it wasn't obvious that you were supposed to disagree with them, then I suspect that you are an undercover agent for the mechanoid agenda, and I, for one, welcome our new robotic overlords.
Note to self: Must cleanse Monger....
Anyhoo, I get that, but, for me, their illogical, perhaps even insane point-of-view kills the tension. I mean, their outlook is just outright crazy from the get-go. Yes, some like-minded people would fall for it, but I can't envision them coming into such great power. Too many parts to control, too many people involved. I mean, this is supposed to be a world wide conspiracy. It just doesn't seem plausible that they would have such total control of the world, that they would be able to find so many capable people who shared their beliefs. Nutjobs and fanatics, sure, but people who can actually act on the Patriots' behalf with competence and without somehow spilling the beans? And then, there's this:
Even though they had such complete control, they allowed the internet to be formed virtually unchecked. Given their lordship over information and, presumably, the technology used to share/control it, you'd think they'd be involved since Prodigy first started running advertisements. I can't see how they'd let something like that slip through their fingers. Even if they thought the internet would never be a threat, why take the risk?
I dunno. I'm probably overthinking it. I should just turn off my brain when playing these games. I mean, I still haven't beaten 2 (got up to the part where Raiden fights the little Metal Gears), and I've never played 3 even though I own it. Part of me (the masochist in me?) wants to beat them.
Nightslyr on
PSN/XBL/Nintendo/Origin/Steam: Nightslyr 3DS: 1607-1682-2948 Switch: SW-3515-0057-3813 FF XIV: Q'vehn Tia
You really need to play MGS3. It's fantastic and so much better than the second game. I may like it even more than the first game. You've got ten days until MGS4, so go go go!
Totally agreed. MSG 3 has the same kind of byzantine plot development that MSG 2 tries to have, but is far more cohesive and accessible. Hell, it's pretty emotionally stirring too.
If you're one of the many that skipped 3 because you were turned off by 2, I highly recommend playing through 3 anyway. It's a masterpiece of storytelling as far as I'm concerned.
I find it more than a little amusing religion is getting dumped into these categories of humanity's 'bad ideas'. Right or wrong, it's a major part of human existence. The cons AND pros of that have to be weighed.
RELIGION BAD is just as ignorant as SCIENCE GOOD. One was responsible for making atom bombs for example, the other was not.
As far as the Patriots go, I'm interested to see what they're role is in MGS4. They've lost control of their found Ocelot due to hijacking, but have succeeded in controlling war. That's all at risk now due to Liquid's rebellion.
Exactly. We're SUPPOSED to think the Patriots are wrong. We're supposed to see big flaws in their logic. because they're the bad guys and if they made sense then there wouldn't really be much motivation to stop them and take them down. The Patriots are essentially full of themselves and think they know what's right and that any ideas contrary to their own should be silenced. They're basically insane. That's how it came across to me, anyway.
If you really want to get down to the point, I think it has more to do with the fact that we're human and we like free will (see: Raiden). The Patriots aren't. Well not now, anyway. They like structure and predictability, and make it their duty to change the world accordingly.
Really, if it wasn't obvious that you were supposed to disagree with them, then I suspect that you are an undercover agent for the mechanoid agenda, and I, for one, welcome our new robotic overlords.
Note to self: Must cleanse Monger....
Anyhoo, I get that, but, for me, their illogical, perhaps even insane point-of-view kills the tension. I mean, their outlook is just outright crazy from the get-go. Yes, some like-minded people would fall for it, but I can't envision them coming into such great power. Too many parts to control, too many people involved. I mean, this is supposed to be a world wide conspiracy. It just doesn't seem plausible that they would have such total control of the world, that they would be able to find so many capable people who shared their beliefs. Nutjobs and fanatics, sure, but people who can actually act on the Patriots' behalf with competence and without somehow spilling the beans? And then, there's this:
Even though they had such complete control, they allowed the internet to be formed virtually unchecked. Given their lordship over information and, presumably, the technology used to share/control it, you'd think they'd be involved since Prodigy first started running advertisements. I can't see how they'd let something like that slip through their fingers. Even if they thought the internet would never be a threat, why take the risk?
I dunno. I'm probably overthinking it. I should just turn off my brain when playing these games. I mean, I still haven't beaten 2 (got up to the part where Raiden fights the little Metal Gears), and I've never played 3 even though I own it. Part of me (the masochist in me?) wants to beat them.
It should be pointed out that most likely the majority of people working for the Patriots don't know the true scale of their plans, and are misdirected. Even Ocelot didn't know the whole truth about the S3 plan, and it seemed like he was one of their top henchmen. And I'm sure most people that work for them don't share their beliefs at all, and just do it for promised money or power. And most likely anyone who doesn't share their goals and is privy to important workings of the Patriots ends up getting silenced after their work is done.
As for why they didn't deal with the formation of the internet, it could always be that they didn't have the means or tech to deal with it at the time. It's also possible that they began the whole GW plan, or something like it, as a response to the formation of the net and it simply took them a long time to perfect and unleash it. The internet is still a realtively new part of society, that grew extremely large extremely fast. They may not have forseen the net's quick rise and didn't deal with it fast enough.
Most likely they had made attempts to censor the internet in the past and just couldn't do it effectively with the methods they already had, so they took things to the extreme and made GW.
Another possibility is that the whole "we need to control all information" attitude is a fairly new plan and wasn't always the Patriots' goal. We know very little of the inner workings of the Patriots, like who's exactly in charge and how long they've been in charge. Typically in fiction, these kinds of groups are formed with nothing but good intentions, and then eventually get corrupted.
I find it more than a little amusing religion is getting dumped into these categories of humanity's 'bad ideas'. Right or wrong, it's a major part of human existence. The cons AND pros of that have to be weighed.
RELIGION BAD is just as ignorant as SCIENCE GOOD. One was responsible for making atom bombs for example, the other was not.
As far as the Patriots go, I'm interested to see what they're role is in MGS4. They've lost control of their found Ocelot due to hijacking, but have succeeded in controlling war. That's all at risk now due to Liquid's rebellion.
I never mentioned religion. Evolution being wrong is a bad idea and it is false. Religion, I'll leave that up to your personal beliefs.
I can't wait to see what sections of the game have you fight along side Raiden. The team up in Arsenal Gear was one of my favorite parts of MGS2. It was confirmed a loooong time ago ninja boy would be Snake's field back up, not just cutscene material. Imagine the possibilities.
I can't wait to see what sections of the game have you fight along side Raiden. The team up in Arsenal Gear was one of my favorite parts of MGS2. It was confirmed a loooong time ago ninja boy would be Snake's field back up, not just cutscene material. Imagine the possibilities.
I've been speculating, with no basis at all (so don't consider this a spoiler, just wishful thinking) that the game's second chapter will have you actually controlling Raiden being all ninja-cool, and that they'll semi-tongue-in-cheek imply that this is another MGS2-style bait and switch, just to piss off the fans.
Of course, then it'll turn out that Raiden is now a total badass and super-fun to play as, and by the time you get to the third chapter and have to go back to Snake, you'll wish you could spend more time with Raiden.
I can't wait to see what sections of the game have you fight along side Raiden. The team up in Arsenal Gear was one of my favorite parts of MGS2. It was confirmed a loooong time ago ninja boy would be Snake's field back up, not just cutscene material. Imagine the possibilities.
I've been speculating, with no basis at all (so don't consider this a spoiler, just wishful thinking) that the game's second chapter will have you actually controlling Raiden being all ninja-cool, and that they'll semi-tongue-in-cheek imply that this is another MGS2-style bait and switch, just to piss off the fans.
Of course, then it'll turn out that Raiden is now a total badass and super-fun to play as, and by the time you get to the third chapter and have to go back to Snake, you'll wish you could spend more time with Raiden.
That's what I'd do if I were Kojima. :P
That's a pretty good idea.
Also, for the record, despite the problems I have with MGS2, in hindsight the decision to focus on Raiden was probably my favorite part of the experience. The majority of the game was basically a breaching experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaching_experiment). The repeat of the Shadow Moses incident, the switch of Snake for Raiden (even having Raiden using the Solid Snake codename for a bit), Solidus Snake himself, the "Fisson Mailed" and other AI glitches....
I didn't really like the overall plot, but I thought that those touches were pretty damn cool.
Nightslyr on
PSN/XBL/Nintendo/Origin/Steam: Nightslyr 3DS: 1607-1682-2948 Switch: SW-3515-0057-3813 FF XIV: Q'vehn Tia
Just starting Subsistence, completely unable to go undetected. Do I get the radar back?
I'm having a lot of trouble on my current run, trying to get as close as possible to no detections. My situational awareness just sucks. I think I'm too used to the way things work in MGS2, how you simply just dart across when a soldier isn't looking. The stealth is MGS3 requires a lot more patience.
Also i still think the fact guards aren't deaf this time around makes things harder too.
I love how the metal gear games can be so different, but so similar at the same time.
Posts
They couldn't have proven that with the Big Shell experiment though. So a second test was obviously close enough for them to run another one somewhere without any snake to prove it. Otherwise all their subjects would have immediatelly abandoned them.
It doesn't matter, the game is full of little logic loopholes like that one, I'm still gonna play it and love it.
I, however, will not be able to play it on account of having no PS3 and money.
So... this is irony.
It BURNS.
Maybe if you read the fucking OP you would see that MGS2 spoilers are free and open. It even says so in the title that there are spoilers.
http://kotaku.com/5012196/new-metal-gear-solid-4-footage
It's a footage of the cutscenes.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
Yup, it sure does. My mistake. Sorry all.
I skimmed the op because I've played them all. Sometimes I miss things.
Saw that yesterday (though it was shaky cam).
It's fucking bad-ass.
Try the Metal Gear Wiki, which I'm the head admin for, and had no intention of blatantly site whoring when I started this thread.
But yeah, we kick ass and we have tons of info.
So even then, Raiden's "free will" does nothing to stop the Patriots from getting him to do what they want him to do. Even then, Raiden essentially just has the illusion of free will. Even when he's aware he's being manipulated, he can't stop them from manipulating him into finishing the mission. He was put in a position where if he didn't take out Solidus, he would lose the woman he loved. A love that was manufactured by the Patriots. Even then, the Patriots' had control over how he felt and what he chose to do because of the feelings they engineered him to have for Rose and Olga's child.
I guess what I'm saying is, even though they went the more tradtional blackmail route, forcing Raiden to go along with things to save the life of the woman he loved and an innocent child he wanted to protect...the very emotions he had for those two people were via the control and manipulation of the Patriots. He cared about them because the Patriots wanted him to. He kills Solidus because of these feelings, which still makes him a puppet in the end.
Him throwing away the dog tags doesn't really mean much, as the experiment is already over and the Patriots don't really seem to care about him anymore.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
I think I got around three quarters of the way through MGS 2, before just going "meh" and put it down.
To this day I have never completed MGS 2. It bored me so much that I skipped what is apparently a very good game in MGS 3.
I'm kind of hyped for MGS 4 so it'd be nice to have some "the story so far" or something.
---
I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
Man, when I got 3/4s of the way through MGS2, I couldn't put it down. The last couple hours have this addictive quality where I just NEED to see what's going to happen next, every single time I play through it.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
K, that shit looks epic. That said, I can't respect anyone who calls Laughing Octopus
You really need to play MGS3. It's fantastic and so much better than the second game. I may like it even more than the first game. You've got ten days until MGS4, so go go go!
This is brute force. Not free will. He has no free will if the only option is death.
You are kinda confusing concepts a bit here, and your logic is all over the place, but I don't have the time to unravel it, it's going to lead to more timewasting than even I can put up with with my assignments due. So we can either put the discussion on hold for a few days or just agree to disagree.
See, this is why I didn't bother finishing MGS2. The story was such bullshit.
The internet, more than any other medium, allows for a true marketplace of ideas. Why? Because the common person has access to the means of producing and publishing their ideas. Anyone can sign up for MySpace, or Blogger, or whatever else. It's not limited to the wealthy or powerful. Everyone can participate.
Yes, 'bad' ideas linger, but they've lingered anyway. Some people still think that the Free Masons rule the world. Some people still think that the Rapture is right around the corner. And some people still think that Michael Jackson is normal. These thoughts would remain whether or not our current technology used to share them existed or not.
No, the internet merely allows like-minded people and ideas to cluster. In that way, it's actually easier to rally against them because they exist in concrete virtual locations - particular websites, message boards, blogs, that sort of thing. It's far easier to combat a bad idea when it's there for all to see rather than festering in the minds of those who may never feel the courage to express the idea to the public at large.
So, to use your example of a guy who thinks "evolution is wrong," I'd rather they post that thought for all to see than to keep it secret and infect their children with it, and have it go on down the line in the shadows. Like I said before, ideas like that would exist anyway. The technology merely allows it to enter the marketplace of ideas where it can be judged on its own merits. Yes, it may 'infect' others, but another group will spread the word that this is a bad idea. And I sincerely doubt that the 'bad' infection would outweigh/outperform the 'good' infection, based on the innate quality of the idea itself.
As for the rest, the Patriots' argument seems to be simply based around the signal-to-noise ratio of the internet, which is a pretty weak foundation to rest "let's take over the world" on.
Now, if they wanted to argue against the institutions that spread information (schools, church, government, etc), then that could've been interesting. Instead, their argument is basically "Too much YouTube and no beer make Homer go crazy."
Switch: SW-3515-0057-3813 FF XIV: Q'vehn Tia
Honestly, the only thing that Snake does is help Raiden survive to accomplish the patriots goal. He might plant some new ideas in Raiden's head when everything is said and done, but the ironic thing is that Raiden actually had no chance of surviving the whole ordeal if it weren't for Snake intervening. I mean, even Olga couldn't help Raiden the way Snake ending up doing so. I think the real significance of Snake is that after the patriots are successful in manipulating Raiden, Raiden decides to cut himself off from the patriots. Without Snake, there's a possibility that JFK could've convinced Raiden that aiding the patriots was the best for everyone, instead of Raiden realizing that he needs to defend the right of people to pass on the information that they want to. The game never states whether or not Raiden was supposed to fall into the patriots hands after the experiment was over, but as far as manipulating Raiden into defeating Solidus, the whole experiment was a huge success for the patriots and I think that in MGS4 we're going to be seeing a lot of the patriots doing the same sort of thing to soldiers on the battlefield on a wide scale.
By the way, I think that everything that the JFK AI is telling Raiden is more or less true. This is under the precept that they're trying to manipulate him even though he knows the truth, though. I buy into it mostly because everything the AI says makes cohesive sense according to the patriot's actions. The only thing that's questionable is whether or not they're controlling the masses because they honestly believe that they know what's best for everyone, or because they want to secure power for themselves, each is equally plausible and both could be true. I don't think that the patriots had actually lost any control by the end of MGS2, remember that they, not Solidus, rammed Arsenal Gear into Manhattan, that was deliberate. The only thing that I don't think they were anticipating in the end was Liquid taking over Ocelot's body and Snake showing up.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
Nevertheless, I still disagree, mainly because it denies the strength of snake and him defying memetics as well as his genes is too strong a "pet theory" for me to pass up. But I admit that's not an unbiased theory grounded in the information available in the text, so I'll deny it's validity for now until I can construct a better justification.
Really, if it wasn't obvious that you were supposed to disagree with them, then I suspect that you are an undercover agent for the mechanoid agenda, and I, for one, welcome our new robotic overlords.
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
Bad ideas may linger, but people would ultimately be fearful of expressing them if they didn't think that anyone else held that same idea. The internet and things like that would bring these bad ideas out in people that normally wouldn't mention them or spread them around. So, the Patriots do have a sort of point in that. And, remember, it's not just the internet. From what I remember of the speech, it's pretty much anything and everything that can be changed. Aren't scientific reports mentioned as an example of what they've censored before?
Also, the Patriots would never want a true marketplace of ideas. It gives power to Joe Average. The Patriots exist to try and take power away from Joe Average. He is dumb, and shouldn't be in charge of anything. Also, remember that the Patriots don't need to take over the world with Arsenal Gear. They've already done that. They already control pretty much everything that matters. Arsenal Gear is just another way of beating down the masses. It's another means of control.
Maybe if you told me what exactly I've said that you don't understand, it would be easier for me to clarify. no one else seems to be having any trouble understanding me.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
Note to self: Must cleanse Monger....
Anyhoo, I get that, but, for me, their illogical, perhaps even insane point-of-view kills the tension. I mean, their outlook is just outright crazy from the get-go. Yes, some like-minded people would fall for it, but I can't envision them coming into such great power. Too many parts to control, too many people involved. I mean, this is supposed to be a world wide conspiracy. It just doesn't seem plausible that they would have such total control of the world, that they would be able to find so many capable people who shared their beliefs. Nutjobs and fanatics, sure, but people who can actually act on the Patriots' behalf with competence and without somehow spilling the beans? And then, there's this:
Even though they had such complete control, they allowed the internet to be formed virtually unchecked. Given their lordship over information and, presumably, the technology used to share/control it, you'd think they'd be involved since Prodigy first started running advertisements. I can't see how they'd let something like that slip through their fingers. Even if they thought the internet would never be a threat, why take the risk?
I dunno. I'm probably overthinking it. I should just turn off my brain when playing these games. I mean, I still haven't beaten 2 (got up to the part where Raiden fights the little Metal Gears), and I've never played 3 even though I own it. Part of me (the masochist in me?) wants to beat them.
Switch: SW-3515-0057-3813 FF XIV: Q'vehn Tia
Totally agreed. MSG 3 has the same kind of byzantine plot development that MSG 2 tries to have, but is far more cohesive and accessible. Hell, it's pretty emotionally stirring too.
If you're one of the many that skipped 3 because you were turned off by 2, I highly recommend playing through 3 anyway. It's a masterpiece of storytelling as far as I'm concerned.
And it will definitely hype you for 4.
RELIGION BAD is just as ignorant as SCIENCE GOOD. One was responsible for making atom bombs for example, the other was not.
As far as the Patriots go, I'm interested to see what they're role is in MGS4. They've lost control of their found Ocelot due to hijacking, but have succeeded in controlling war. That's all at risk now due to Liquid's rebellion.
It should be pointed out that most likely the majority of people working for the Patriots don't know the true scale of their plans, and are misdirected. Even Ocelot didn't know the whole truth about the S3 plan, and it seemed like he was one of their top henchmen. And I'm sure most people that work for them don't share their beliefs at all, and just do it for promised money or power. And most likely anyone who doesn't share their goals and is privy to important workings of the Patriots ends up getting silenced after their work is done.
As for why they didn't deal with the formation of the internet, it could always be that they didn't have the means or tech to deal with it at the time. It's also possible that they began the whole GW plan, or something like it, as a response to the formation of the net and it simply took them a long time to perfect and unleash it. The internet is still a realtively new part of society, that grew extremely large extremely fast. They may not have forseen the net's quick rise and didn't deal with it fast enough.
Most likely they had made attempts to censor the internet in the past and just couldn't do it effectively with the methods they already had, so they took things to the extreme and made GW.
Another possibility is that the whole "we need to control all information" attitude is a fairly new plan and wasn't always the Patriots' goal. We know very little of the inner workings of the Patriots, like who's exactly in charge and how long they've been in charge. Typically in fiction, these kinds of groups are formed with nothing but good intentions, and then eventually get corrupted.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
I never mentioned religion. Evolution being wrong is a bad idea and it is false. Religion, I'll leave that up to your personal beliefs.
I can't wait to see what sections of the game have you fight along side Raiden. The team up in Arsenal Gear was one of my favorite parts of MGS2. It was confirmed a loooong time ago ninja boy would be Snake's field back up, not just cutscene material. Imagine the possibilities.
There's a statute of limitations that comes into affect.
EDIT
I wish people would us "⁄ Snake" when referring to Solidus. The solidus symbol doesn't get enough usage.
I've been speculating, with no basis at all (so don't consider this a spoiler, just wishful thinking) that the game's second chapter will have you actually controlling Raiden being all ninja-cool, and that they'll semi-tongue-in-cheek imply that this is another MGS2-style bait and switch, just to piss off the fans.
Of course, then it'll turn out that Raiden is now a total badass and super-fun to play as, and by the time you get to the third chapter and have to go back to Snake, you'll wish you could spend more time with Raiden.
That's what I'd do if I were Kojima. :P
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
---
I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
That's a pretty good idea.
Also, for the record, despite the problems I have with MGS2, in hindsight the decision to focus on Raiden was probably my favorite part of the experience. The majority of the game was basically a breaching experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaching_experiment). The repeat of the Shadow Moses incident, the switch of Snake for Raiden (even having Raiden using the Solid Snake codename for a bit), Solidus Snake himself, the "Fisson Mailed" and other AI glitches....
I didn't really like the overall plot, but I thought that those touches were pretty damn cool.
Switch: SW-3515-0057-3813 FF XIV: Q'vehn Tia
Hey, I have a blog! (Actually being updated again!)
3DS: 0860-3240-2604
I'm having a lot of trouble on my current run, trying to get as close as possible to no detections. My situational awareness just sucks. I think I'm too used to the way things work in MGS2, how you simply just dart across when a soldier isn't looking. The stealth is MGS3 requires a lot more patience.
Also i still think the fact guards aren't deaf this time around makes things harder too.
I love how the metal gear games can be so different, but so similar at the same time.
PSN:Hakira__
I would have mocked you too, to be fair.
I mean I love MGS, but this is a series that can't even get existing science right.
Hey, I have a blog! (Actually being updated again!)
3DS: 0860-3240-2604