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Fencing, another kind of swordfighting
redfenix
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Overview
In the broadest possible sense, fencing is the art of armed combat involving cutting, stabbing, or bludgeoning weapons directly manipulated by hand, rather than shot, thrown or positioned. Examples include swords, knives, pikes, bayonets, batons, clubs, and similar weapons. This definition is a stretch of the word, however. "Fencing" wasn't invented until either the Renaissance or at the very end of the Late Middle Ages, depending on who you ask. For weapon styles pre-dating this origin, "melee" or "Western Martial Arts" are better descriptors. In contemporary common usage, "fencing" tends to refer specifically to European schools of swordsmanship and to the modern Olympic sport that has evolved out of them.
Fencing is one of the four sports which has been featured at every modern Olympic Games. Currently, three types of weapon are used in Olympic fencing:
* Foil — a light thrusting weapon; the valid target is restricted to the torso; double touches are not allowed (see priority rules below).
* Épée — a heavy thrusting weapon; the valid target area covers the entire body; double touches are allowed.
* Sabre — a light cutting and thrusting weapon; the valid target area includes almost everything above the waist (excluding the back of the head and the hands); double touches are not allowed (see priority rules below).
Etymology: The word 'fence' was originally a shortening of the Middle English 'defens', that came from an Italian word, 'defensio', in origin a Latin word. The first known use of defens in reference to English swordsmanship is in William Shakespeare's Merry Wives of Windsor: 'Alas sir, I cannot fence.'
Fencing is one of the four sports which has been featured at every modern Olympic Games. Currently, three types of weapon are used in Olympic fencing:
* Foil — a light thrusting weapon; the valid target is restricted to the torso; double touches are not allowed (see priority rules below).
* Épée — a heavy thrusting weapon; the valid target area covers the entire body; double touches are allowed.
* Sabre — a light cutting and thrusting weapon; the valid target area includes almost everything above the waist (excluding the back of the head and the hands); double touches are not allowed (see priority rules below).
Etymology: The word 'fence' was originally a shortening of the Middle English 'defens', that came from an Italian word, 'defensio', in origin a Latin word. The first known use of defens in reference to English swordsmanship is in William Shakespeare's Merry Wives of Windsor: 'Alas sir, I cannot fence.'
Forms of fencing
Contemporary fencing is divided in three broad categories:
* Competitive fencing
There are numerous inter-related forms of competitive fencing in practice, all of which approach the activity as a sport, with varying degrees of connectedness to its historic past.
Olympic fencing (or simply "fencing") refers to the fencing seen in most competitions, including the Olympic Games and the world cup. Competitions are conducted according to rules laid down by the Fédération Internationale d'Escrime (FIE), the international governing body. These rules evolved from a set of conventions developed in Europe between mid 17th and early 20th century with the specific purpose of regulating competitive activity. The three weapons used in Olympic fencing are foil, épée, and sabre. In competition, the validity of touches is determined by the electronic scoring apparatus, so as to minimize human error and bias in refereeing.
Wheelchair fencing, an original Paralympic sport, was developed in post-World War II England. Minor modifications to the FIE rules allow disabled fencers to fence all three weapons. The most apparent change is that each fencer sits in a wheelchair fastened to a frame. Footwork is replaced by torso or arm movement, depending on the fencer's disability. The proximity of the two fencers tends to increase the pace of bouts, which require considerable skill. The weapons are identical to those used in Olympic fencing.
Other variants include one-hit épée (one of the five events which constitute modern pentathlon) and the various types of competitive fencing, whose rules are similar but not identical to the FIE rules. One example of this is the American Fencing League (distinct from the United States Fencing Association): the format of competitions is different, there is no electronic scoring, and the priority rules are interpreted in a different way. In a number of countries, the accepted practice at school and university level deviates slightly from the FIE format.
Olympic fencing (or simply "fencing") refers to the fencing seen in most competitions, including the Olympic Games and the world cup. Competitions are conducted according to rules laid down by the Fédération Internationale d'Escrime (FIE), the international governing body. These rules evolved from a set of conventions developed in Europe between mid 17th and early 20th century with the specific purpose of regulating competitive activity. The three weapons used in Olympic fencing are foil, épée, and sabre. In competition, the validity of touches is determined by the electronic scoring apparatus, so as to minimize human error and bias in refereeing.
Wheelchair fencing, an original Paralympic sport, was developed in post-World War II England. Minor modifications to the FIE rules allow disabled fencers to fence all three weapons. The most apparent change is that each fencer sits in a wheelchair fastened to a frame. Footwork is replaced by torso or arm movement, depending on the fencer's disability. The proximity of the two fencers tends to increase the pace of bouts, which require considerable skill. The weapons are identical to those used in Olympic fencing.
Other variants include one-hit épée (one of the five events which constitute modern pentathlon) and the various types of competitive fencing, whose rules are similar but not identical to the FIE rules. One example of this is the American Fencing League (distinct from the United States Fencing Association): the format of competitions is different, there is no electronic scoring, and the priority rules are interpreted in a different way. In a number of countries, the accepted practice at school and university level deviates slightly from the FIE format.
* Fencing as a Western martial art
Some practitioners of fencing approach it as a Western martial art, with the goal being to train for a theoretical duel. The element of sport is absent (or nearly so) from these forms of fencing, but they all share a common origin with each other and with competitive fencing.
Classical fencing is differentiated from competitive fencing as being theoretically closer to swordplay as a martial art. Those who call themselves classical fencers may advocate the use of what they see as more authentic practices, including little or no emphasis on sport competition. There is strong interest within the classical fencing community in reviving the European fencing practices of the 19th and early 20th century, when fencers were expected to be able to fight a duel using their training. Weapons used are the standard (non-electric) foil, standard épée (often equipped with pointes d'arret), and the blunted duelling sabre. AFL fencing is often referred to as classical fencing, but this is a misnomer.
Historical fencing is a type of historical martial arts reconstruction based on surviving texts and traditions. Predictably, historical fencers study an extremely wide array of weapons from different regions and periods. They may work with bucklers, daggers, polearms, navajas, bludgeoning weapons, etc. One main preoccupation of historical fencers is with weapons of realistic weight, which demand a different way of manipulating them from what is the norm in modern Fencing. For example, light weapons can be manipulated through the use of the fingers (more flexibility), but more realistically-weighted weapons must be controlled more through the wrist and elbow. This difference is great and can lead to drastic changes even in the carriage of the body and footwork in combat. There is considerable overlap between classical and historical fencing, especially with regard to 19th-century fencing practices.
Classical fencing is differentiated from competitive fencing as being theoretically closer to swordplay as a martial art. Those who call themselves classical fencers may advocate the use of what they see as more authentic practices, including little or no emphasis on sport competition. There is strong interest within the classical fencing community in reviving the European fencing practices of the 19th and early 20th century, when fencers were expected to be able to fight a duel using their training. Weapons used are the standard (non-electric) foil, standard épée (often equipped with pointes d'arret), and the blunted duelling sabre. AFL fencing is often referred to as classical fencing, but this is a misnomer.
Historical fencing is a type of historical martial arts reconstruction based on surviving texts and traditions. Predictably, historical fencers study an extremely wide array of weapons from different regions and periods. They may work with bucklers, daggers, polearms, navajas, bludgeoning weapons, etc. One main preoccupation of historical fencers is with weapons of realistic weight, which demand a different way of manipulating them from what is the norm in modern Fencing. For example, light weapons can be manipulated through the use of the fingers (more flexibility), but more realistically-weighted weapons must be controlled more through the wrist and elbow. This difference is great and can lead to drastic changes even in the carriage of the body and footwork in combat. There is considerable overlap between classical and historical fencing, especially with regard to 19th-century fencing practices.
* Other forms of fencing
Finally, there are several other forms of fencing which have little in common besides history with either of the other two classifications.
Academic fencing, or mensur, is a German student tradition that has become mostly extinct but is still sometimes practiced in Germany, Switzerland and Austria as well as in Flanders and Latvia. The combat, which uses a cutting weapon known as the schläger, uses sharpened blades and takes place between members of student fraternities - "Studentenverbindungen" - in accordance with a strictly delineated set of conventions. It uses special protective gear that leaves most of the head and face, excluding the eyes, unprotected. (The special goggles are called Paukbrille.) The ultimate goal is to develop personal character, therefore there is no winner or loser and flinching is not allowed. Acquiring a proper cut on the face with the sharp blade, called a Schmiss (German for "smite"), is one goal and a visible sign of manly courage.
Stage fencing seeks to achieve maximum theatrical impact in representing a wide range of styles, including both modern and historical forms of fencing. Theatrical fight scenes are choreographed by a Fight Director, and fencing actions are exaggerated for dramatic effect and visual clarity.
Recreational roleplaying often incorporates fencing in the context of historical or fantasy themes in the Society for Creative Anachronism or live-action roleplaying games. Technique and scoring systems vary widely from one group to the next, as do the weapons. Depending on local conventions, participants may use modern sport fencing weapons, period weapons, or weapons invented specifically for the purpose, such as boffers.
Academic fencing, or mensur, is a German student tradition that has become mostly extinct but is still sometimes practiced in Germany, Switzerland and Austria as well as in Flanders and Latvia. The combat, which uses a cutting weapon known as the schläger, uses sharpened blades and takes place between members of student fraternities - "Studentenverbindungen" - in accordance with a strictly delineated set of conventions. It uses special protective gear that leaves most of the head and face, excluding the eyes, unprotected. (The special goggles are called Paukbrille.) The ultimate goal is to develop personal character, therefore there is no winner or loser and flinching is not allowed. Acquiring a proper cut on the face with the sharp blade, called a Schmiss (German for "smite"), is one goal and a visible sign of manly courage.
Stage fencing seeks to achieve maximum theatrical impact in representing a wide range of styles, including both modern and historical forms of fencing. Theatrical fight scenes are choreographed by a Fight Director, and fencing actions are exaggerated for dramatic effect and visual clarity.
Recreational roleplaying often incorporates fencing in the context of historical or fantasy themes in the Society for Creative Anachronism or live-action roleplaying games. Technique and scoring systems vary widely from one group to the next, as do the weapons. Depending on local conventions, participants may use modern sport fencing weapons, period weapons, or weapons invented specifically for the purpose, such as boffers.
This seems like a great place to discuss fencing.
redfenix on
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My brother competed at national level.
Need some stuff designed or printed? I can help with that.
are you suggesting larping isn't a real sport?!?!
Satans..... hints.....
no one dies in larping
except for pretend vampires, but they're already pretending to be dead
because then he'd just kill everyone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP34fE-WLPc&feature=related
SE++ Map Steam
I did Epee (fuck the funny e's) and was by the time I had to stop (because only people who are good retire) I was able to compete in a state level.
I've had it described to me as high speed chess, it is a pretty good description.
Satans..... hints.....
almost certainly
I just eventually got fed up with the sport and competition aspect of it, and left to pursue other martial arts.
Would like to eventually try some historical or classical fencing, but I don't know of any organizations near me that do it.
GoFund The Portland Trans Pride March, or Show It To People, or Else!
The strip is only there really to stop people running away from people.
Satans..... hints.....
Because the way you can simply change the angle of your point means moving to the side of someone doesn't have much use. They can move their hand about a centimeter and still hit you. Also, keeping it restricted means you can practice in smaller areas, and makes setting up the electric scoring apparati much easier.
Edit: Also what Blaket said.
GoFund The Portland Trans Pride March, or Show It To People, or Else!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bzrap8Vtyq8
SE++ Map Steam
EDIT: dang, too late
PARKER, YOU'RE FIRED! <-- My comic book podcast! Satan look here!
Verb; Sexual activity between two gay men. The term "squashbuckling" is sometimes submitted.
SE++ Map Steam
I greatly prefer that, actually.
It really is, there are a heap of interesting things going on that you need to know about the sport to understand.
I would say that someone trained in martial arts can understand alot more of the fight than I can.
When I see a bout there are all kinds of things that I watch, distance, stance, beats that they are moving to, fakes, double fakes, counters, attack zones, all kinds of stuff you can watch for.
Back when I was fencing glove tapping was the most satisfying thing.
Satans..... hints.....
COMPLETELY 100% WRONG OH MY GOD THIS IS THE WRONGEST THING EVER EVEN MORE WRONG THAN BEING A GAY OR FUCKING BABIES
Seriously, no, this is indicative of a very serious lack of understanding of combat in general. Minor angular adjustments that cause the opponent to miss and have to readjust his stance are incredibly important moves to be able to make in combat. Goddamn, that's like saying that slipping is useless in boxing, because the guy just has to readjust his jab by an inch to hit you in the face. Yeah, that's EXACTLY the point. He misses by an inch, and you're in position to hit him.
You do realise that if it was in a big arena that they still would barely move to the side if they did.
There is no tactical advantage moving to the side, it in fact makes it worse because you lose all power in your lunges, it opens your profile and is just generally dumb.
The reason why they did this was because no one moved to the side to begin.
I will concede that it is necessary for martial arts (and if you had a broadsword I suppose) but moving from side to side is whinging from people that don't understand the sport.
Satans..... hints.....
"You should attack from the front"
Are you goddamn serious? Have ninjas taught you nothing? Or the German attack on France in WW2? Have you ever read Musashi's book, or Sun Tzu's? The front is the ABSOLUTE WORST ANGLE from which to attack! The Maginot Line, man! How did the Germans beat that huge fucking wall of guns? They rolled around behind it and shot from the back. You never EVER attack an opponent who is in a position of strength! Always attack them where they are weak. Your strength is pitted against their weakness, that is good strategy. If you could choose any angle on which to make your attack, you're an idiot for choosing the front. You should choose the back, and preferably while they are asleep and drunk.
You can move an inch, the mat is like an inch wide.
Secondly if you aim for the face in fencing you are a fucking idiot.
Thirdly you don't understand the sport.
Satans..... hints.....
o man
Blaket, I'm assuming you know something, but wow, i think you've roused the ire of defender.
this should be entertaining
SE++ Map Steam
Well played good sir, well played.
That's my only experience with fencing.
That's all I've done, unfortunately. I'd really love to learn how to actually fence, it would probably carry over and help with the stage work.
Yeah, what the fuck would I know, I only did it for 13 years, taught professionally alongside Olympians, and competed at the national level.
There are three things to control in the basic setup of combat, and they are, in order, distance, angle, and timing. You, for some reason, do not understand angle. And apparently you haven't researched classical styles which involve arcing steps, and are unaware of modern (unarmed) martial arts as practiced in public exhibitions like boxing and MMA, where people who charge straight in get punched in the face.
Fencing took place on the strip to represent the narrow roads and pathways on which duels were often fought. It is not because there's no tactical validity to sidestepping. That's just plain stupid. If there were no tactical validity, then you could put people in a ring and nobody would sidestep.
Super Christian and shadowcasting Rocky Horror really don't seem to go together.
Yeah there's no tactical advantage to side-stepping, because the excuse we give is that it's supposed to represent fighting in a hallway. The strip or "piste" is like a meter wide so there's some room to move about a little, but most competitive fencers hug one side of the piste in order to minimize the attack vectors to just depth and height.
And the face is completely valid target in epee and saber. If you flesche at the face, it creates a more threatening reaction from the other guy, and he's likely to make a wider parry or something. Saber cut to head happens all the time.
So, who from SE++ fences where?
Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
Moved here from the Obama thread, for the sake of the children.
Getting stabbed in an extremity while you're moving forward quickly and all high on adrenaline, I would argue, would override the instinct to withdraw. Admittedly, I've never been stabbed with a real sword or knife myself, but my kung fu master always had a story about being stabbed in the leg during a fight, and not even realizing there was a knife sticking out of his thigh until afterward. If the blade is sharp enough, pain won't be a factor for several seconds, at least.
Though double touches do happen in sports such as fencing and boxing, in an actual duel with sharp blades they would be something to be avoided at all costs.
I think we are arguing two different points, where I'm trying to defend right of way as a sound concept, because of how it would work with actual heavier blades, since a good parry or beat would knock your opponent's sword quite far out of line and striking first when your opponent has an attack on the way means you die too.
You're trying to say that épée rules, as they are practiced in the sport of fencing, are closer to actual rules. I can accept that, since the way right of way rules are used in the context of the sport has been manipulated beyond recognition, but I still think it's a sound principle.
GoFund The Portland Trans Pride March, or Show It To People, or Else!
No I have never heard of that.
And if you managed to read my post martial arts are completely different.
Satans..... hints.....
First, of course you can't sidestep WHEN YOU ARE ON A NARROW-ASS STRIP. No fucking shit! The question was "why don't we NOT FIGHT ON A NARROW STRIP" and I explained why sidestepping is useful. It is obvious that sidestepping is only useful when you have someplace to go.
Second, you aim for the face in BOXING. Also, sabre has head cuts. I have, rarely, hit the face in fencing. It has its place, but it's not something you do every time. There's a section in The Book Of Five Rings, in the Fire chapter, specifically, entitled "Stabbing The Face" and describes the usefulness of that tactic. That was written by Musashi, widely regarded as the greatest Japanese swordsman and strategian ever to pick up a katana, but I guess he's a "fucking idiot" because you don't understand how and when to stab the face.
Thirdly, I taught the sport professionally in a club that had multiple Olympians on staff. I fenced throughout my childhood, from age 10 to age 23. I competed at the national level. What qualifications do you have? Don't tell me I don't know the sport, I used to earn my fucking living from it.
Lets be serious here, if you are fencing epee, your target order goes hand, arm, shoulder, chest, toe then head.
It's a silly place to aim for, it's too far away and too close to the weapon to make a valid target.
Satans..... hints.....
Fencing IS a martial art. All martial arts are the same at their core, they all derive from the same principles. The specific applications and situations change, but the principles never do.