Yeah, gothic three is actually.... *memory error*... an excellent RPG from the guys at *hard crash* pirhana bytes *stun lock* without an *memory error* problems at all
PN03 was already mentioned, so I can't contribute anything wondrous to this thread. However, I will also say that the art from the game makes for EXCELLENT desktop wallpaper.
But I guess I can sound off about a few other games that I don't champion quite as hard as PN03.
None of these were panned, per se, but they recieved generally middlin' reviews and didn't see much in the way of sales.
Gladius, by Lucasarts, was an incredible Turn-based strategy game that managed to combine a whole slew of mythologies and intriguing weapons and tactics into a cohesive whole. Not only that, but there was an additional skill element introduced into the game in the form of the swing bar. This caused your characters to have hit and damage effects that were controlled more by the player than just by their stats. This changed things up and really kept you involved throughout the whole game. Granted that by the end it gets a little annoying because it seems every other enemy has a sword that can instantly kill you just as a side effect, but still. The game is awesome.
Geist, by N-space, as a really interesting take on the FPS, in that the player was constantly taking over enemies and using their weapons. The game was forever in development and even Miyamoto's help couldn't quite bring it up to par with other titles, but the multiplayer was actually really interesting and the story was compelling without being cheesy or convoluted. The entire sequence where you take over a female scientist and turn her into Ripley from Aliens over the course of about four hours (the longest posession in the game by far) was unbelievable in its awesome.
Other Gamecube titles I enjoyed include Evolution Worlds (similar to Azure Dreams and TimeStalkers), Odama (one-of-a-kind feudal Japanese military strategy Pinball simulator), The Hobbit (Zelda ripoff from Sierra, quite entertaining), Custom Robo, Megaman Network Transmission, Kirby Air Ride, Vexx, and both Lost Kingdoms titles.
I could go into other system, but I'm sure other people will cover them for me.
Those are all games I wished I had but never got the chance to play
Dark Messiah is really great. It's a fantasy game, with brilliant melee combat, halflife style set pieces and some cool RPG-lite aspects. The graphics aren't that great for the most part, but it does have it's moments.
The story is a bit lightweight, and the illusion of choice is really thinly masked.
It's a great, unique game that everyone should playthrough at least once, and it gets me really stoked for "The Crossing".
Dark Messiah is really great. It's a fantasy game, with brilliant melee combat, halflife style set pieces and some cool RPG-lite aspects. The graphics aren't that great for the most part, but it does have it's moments.
The story is a bit lightweight, and the illusion of choice is really thinly masked.
It's a great, unique game that everyone should playthrough at least once, and it gets me really stoked for "The Crossing".
The soundtrack is great too.
So how is it in comparison with Morrowind?
It's not much like Morrowind at all, apart from in setting.
It's completely linear. It's like they recorded a video of what a typical playthrough of Morrowind would be, cut out any repetition or filler, and added loads of cool action set pieces.
It's an action game. It's strengths are really great, visceral combat, and cool set peices.
Hmm, according to my charts, my personal scores jibe fairly well with reviews, so nothing immediately jumps to mind...however, the highest percentage gaps for scores from mine to reviewers would be:
Perhaps if you thought Tales of Symphonia was Shakespeare.
Are you implying that TOS was anything other than awesome?
I hereby label you a charlatan and a vagabond, and demand pistols at noon to satisfy my honor!
Irregardless of the quality of the game itself, I'm sorry. If you thinking the story of ToS was any good I think you're beyond help.
Perhaps if you thought Tales of Symphonia was Shakespeare.
Are you implying that TOS was anything other than awesome?
I hereby label you a charlatan and a vagabond, and demand pistols at noon to satisfy my honor!
Irregardless of the quality of the game itself, I'm sorry. If you thinking the story of ToS was any good I think you're beyond help.
Hey hey.
I don't know about you, but I did not see
Kratos' betrayal
coming.
Sure, for the most part the story was cliche but it wasn't horrendous by any means.
Geist The entire sequence where you take over a female scientist and turn her into Ripley from Aliens over the course of about four hours (the longest posession in the game by far) was unbelievable in its awesome.
Did you read my mind or something? I agree with you on all points on both games.
I was really disappointed I had to leave Anne behind. I mean, OK, the concept of the game demanded it eventually, but she might have been given a nicer send-off than just... being left in an unremarkable room so you could jump into a moving crate.
The Phoenix Wright/Apollo Justice Series, most definitely. Although the reviews were mediocre at best, this series is at the top of my favorite list! They have great stories, memorable characters, and, most of all, they don't disappoint in gameplay either.
Shadow Hearts 1 got average reviews, but was a great game.
Why do you guys think Paper Mario 2 got bad reviews? 88% on Gamerankings. That's not bad at all.
UnbreakableVow on
0
ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
edited May 2008
What qualifies as "badly reviewed," exactly? I mean, people are throwing names of some great games out there, but aside from PN03, the reviews on them for the most part were not bad. High 70 percentile is not a bad review, it is in fact quite a good one.
If it's any game with a score below 70%, I'll throw Advent Rising into the mix. The game was fucking awesome, and anyone who didn't play it has not lived a complete life.
If we're looking for truly badly reviewed games, I've got nothing...
Advent Rising is the game that always comes to mind when I see this kind of thread. It has its fair share of problems, mostly related to overall organization and storyboarding, but the actual gameplay is fun, and manages to make what would otherwise be a repetitive shooter into an acrobatic wing-dang-doozle. (Technical term, of course)
The weird thing is that it deserved most of the criticism it got from bad reviews, but I felt like the core of the game was just so good that I could overlook all the bad stuff. I wish they'd cared enough about the series to make it into a trilogy, as originally planned. I feel like a little more time in development could have made the sequels really great.
Dirge of Cerberus. Come on, you know you liked it too. Okay, the story was way too convoluted, and the pacing varied from action-packed to snail's pace, but it was fun, dammit.
Tabula Rasa is another that seemed to get a lukewarm reception, but was really pretty fun. Changing up the dynamic of guns instead of medieval weapons, and changing the setting from fantasy to sci-fi helped make the whole MMO experience seem fresh. Unfortunately, there just didn't seem to be enough interest at the time when everyone was still high on the WoW expansion.
Perhaps if you thought Tales of Symphonia was Shakespeare.
Let's be fair here. No video game story is even close to Shakespeare.
At best video game stories are as good as the best anime or B-grade action movies, which isn't saying much.
So I will say, yes, for a video game, the story is good.
Please tell me what you consider to be a good video game story though, so I can amuse myself.
I agree somewhat on the Advent Rising point but that game is made completely redundant with the arrival of Mass Effect. And while the gameplay isnt similar and the game design differing somewhat, they both attempted the same niche market and ME gets everything right.
I never would have noticed the similarities if you hadn't said something, actually, but you're right.
Though I'd have to say the action market and the RPG hybrid market are different enough that Advent Rising still has a shot (provided they ever wanted to revive it).
Siren has a gamerankings average of 70.9%. IMO, it's the best Survival/Horror game of all time with the exception of RE4. Yes, better than Silent Hill 2, the Fatal Frames, or any of the earlier Resident Evils. Fantastic plot, good gameplay, and some awesome scares. Unfortunately, due to the game have an extremely steep learning curve, most people gave up on the game before it started to get really cool.
I also rather liked King's Field: The Forbidden City (i.e. the PS2 King's Field) and that got 57% average on Gamerankings. It's a good solid dungeon crawler which once again, many people didn't get due to a very high learning curve.
Oh and Triggerheart Exelica is a blast (an unusual mix of shmup and puzzle game) and it only got a 60% average.
For me Battles of Prince of Persia (DS, average score 65). It's a great game, but extremely polarizing - scores range from around 90 to 40. It's a great, old school PC feeling turn based strategy game. Presentation is lacking - especially in the cut scenes - but the gameplay is brilliant.
Also Sega Superstar Tennis (Wii, average score 72). Aside from the complaint that they force you into particular control schemes for the challenges it's very, very fun. Great character/level choices as well. I was stunned the first time I ended up on the Outrun course.
Perhaps if you thought Tales of Symphonia was Shakespeare.
Let's be fair here. No video game story is even close to Shakespeare.
At best video game stories are as good as the best anime or B-grade action movies, which isn't saying much.
So I will say, yes, for a video game, the story is good.
Please tell me what you consider to be a good video game story though, so I can amuse myself.
The problem with Chrono Cross is not the actual plot, it's the way the plot is presented. Everything makes sense (and I mean everything) if you think it all through, but the pacing and order of events in the game is confusing. (See the Chrono Compendium site if you want proof.)
Regarding "At best video game stories are as good as the best anime or B-grade action movies" bit: Wait until Mother 3's in English. It can make English speakers people cry while playing it in Japanese. Frankly it's a great story entirely in its own right, regardless of medium.
Everything that anyone can say either way about Chrono Cross has already been said in this thread so I'm not going to chime in.
Indigo Prophecy. Okay, yes, it goes to complete shit after the first few hours but that's okay because the first few hours are amazing and worth the purchase price alone. Start playing the game at night. Trust me. The part before it all falls apart is the creepiest game I've ever played.
Also, Final Fantasy III DS. Yes, one way to look at it is "mediocre, plotless grind-fest", but really I got a great nostalgia trip out of it.
Chrono Cross was an entertaining game. Both it and Chrono Trigger are two of my favorite games of all time.
I'm not sure what the score was for Suikoden 4 (I think they were decent) but I remember reviewers unfairly attacking the amount of time one spends on the ocean - because, at the time, I remember a certain Nintendo game that was praised with no mention of the amount of time one spends on a raft playing a dang flute to get the wind to blow the right direction. The entire Suikoden series is severely underrated, the second in the series trumping anything and everything Square has ever done.
Perhaps if you thought Tales of Symphonia was Shakespeare.
Let's be fair here. No video game story is even close to Shakespeare.
At best video game stories are as good as the best anime or B-grade action movies, which isn't saying much.
A weary excuse that encourages and condones mediocrity.
Perhaps if you thought Tales of Symphonia was Shakespeare.
Let's be fair here. No video game story is even close to Shakespeare.
At best video game stories are as good as the best anime or B-grade action movies, which isn't saying much.
A weary excuse that encourages and condones mediocrity.
I still haven't gotten your answer as to what you consider to be a good story in terms of games?
If you're saying that no game's story is good, then why bother bringing it up in regards to Chrono Cross? It should simply be assumed.
Look, I have two degrees in literature so I think I understand what a good story is and isn't. But when talking about media that aren't books, there's something of a slidable scale in terms of quality. If I judged movies in general against books, none of them would be considered good. If I judged action movies against most dramas, almost none of them would be considered passable because the way the genre works.
I tend to compare media to like media because it makes no sense to compare the quality of the narrative of Crime and Punishment and Grand Theft Auto IV because they work in very different ways just as different art forms and in terms of their narrative devices
Man, I hope you go into every single thread about every game just to say "Oh, the story was terrible. It wasn't nearly as good as War and Peace".
Perhaps if you thought Tales of Symphonia was Shakespeare.
Let's be fair here. No video game story is even close to Shakespeare.
At best video game stories are as good as the best anime or B-grade action movies, which isn't saying much.
A weary excuse that encourages and condones mediocrity.
I still haven't gotten your answer as to what you consider to be a good story in terms of games?
Snip snip
Look, I have two degrees in literature so I think I understand what a good story is and isn't. But when talking about media that aren't books, there's something of a slidable scale in terms of quality. If I judged movies in general against books, none of them would be considered good. If I judged action movies against most dramas, almost none of them would be considered passable because the way the genre works.
snippity snip
I'm not planning to give an answer because I don't consider it relevant.
On to more interesting fare: I agree with you, in part, that media shouldn't be compared against each other. In part. The "in part" comes due to the fact that, as I'm sure you recognize, the manner in which a story is conveyed is fundamentally different from movies to games to books. The fact that the same method of conveying a story does not apply does not mean that a meaningful, non-trite story of comparable value to War and Peace (for example) cannot be told.
Most of video games have trite, meaningless, shitty stories. That doesn't make them bad games. But that does not change the fact that they are shitty stories.
I was going to say Luminous Arc for the DS, but according to Metacritics it has an average review score of around 80%. Huh. I enjoyed it in a guilty pleasure kind of way, but it was so flawed that I really didn't think anyone would score it higher than a 6/10.
Rondo of Swords, however, is sitting at a measly 68% which is an absolute fucking travesty. It's the gameplay, stupid!
I'll also second P.N.0.3. because it was just so damned fun and the gaming media just really didn't get it (lol everything is white how stupid!!!).
On the subject of video game stories, it really is all in the execution. Good writing, pacing, and presentation can turn the simplest stories into something much more exciting and engaging than initially expected. Portal is the best recent example of this, I think.
On the other hand, epic world spanning tales can easily be bogged down in messy, repetitive dialouge and/or overly complicated and poorly explained plot twists. Chrono Cross has the later in spades, and Luminous Arc is one of the grossest offenders of the first, with characters regularly exclaiming "Oh no! The witch is going to attack!" followed by "The evil witch is attacking!" and then "The witch attacked us and stole the Lapistier" with a "Damn that evil attacking witch for attacking us!" thrown in for good measure.
Gothic 3 was a great game that deserved all the hate because it didn't work and was broken. JoWood is incapable of releasing a game that works, no matter how much potential is there for fun. If you can see past the numerous numerous flaws and try to play the game, there is something great there under all the suck.
Tales of Symphonia had a horrible story, even compared to other video games. Obviously, video games do not approach the quality of novels, because that isn't the focus.
Posts
Yeah, gothic three is actually.... *memory error*... an excellent RPG from the guys at *hard crash* pirhana bytes *stun lock* without an *memory error* problems at all
Heheh fixed amirite :P
:P
Stupid butterfly minigame, stupid brother boss fight, stupid blue mage/dragoon.
Those are all games I wished I had but never got the chance to play
So how is it in comparison with Morrowind?
It's not much like Morrowind at all, apart from in setting.
It's completely linear. It's like they recorded a video of what a typical playthrough of Morrowind would be, cut out any repetition or filler, and added loads of cool action set pieces.
It's an action game. It's strengths are really great, visceral combat, and cool set peices.
Suikoden II +19%
Disgaea +14%
Atelier Iris +14%
Atelier Iris 2 +10%
But those garnered fairly good ratings anyway, so you can't really consider them to be badly reviewed.
It is arranged in linear chapters, with mostly linear worlds, but there are lots of "Hidden Areas" and bits to explore. Not open world at all.
Irregardless of the quality of the game itself, I'm sorry. If you thinking the story of ToS was any good I think you're beyond help.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
It was a review that brought it to my attention in the first place, so I can't really bitch about them or anything.
Hey hey.
I don't know about you, but I did not see
Sure, for the most part the story was cliche but it wasn't horrendous by any means.
There is nothing quite like a full group of experienced players calling out orders and tactical sitreps during the bank level.
And then you get to the vault and everything goes to hell because of a mistake.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
I was really disappointed I had to leave Anne behind. I mean, OK, the concept of the game demanded it eventually, but she might have been given a nicer send-off than just... being left in an unremarkable room so you could jump into a moving crate.
Why do you guys think Paper Mario 2 got bad reviews? 88% on Gamerankings. That's not bad at all.
If it's any game with a score below 70%, I'll throw Advent Rising into the mix. The game was fucking awesome, and anyone who didn't play it has not lived a complete life.
If we're looking for truly badly reviewed games, I've got nothing...
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197970666737/
The weird thing is that it deserved most of the criticism it got from bad reviews, but I felt like the core of the game was just so good that I could overlook all the bad stuff. I wish they'd cared enough about the series to make it into a trilogy, as originally planned. I feel like a little more time in development could have made the sequels really great.
Dirge of Cerberus. Come on, you know you liked it too. Okay, the story was way too convoluted, and the pacing varied from action-packed to snail's pace, but it was fun, dammit.
Tabula Rasa is another that seemed to get a lukewarm reception, but was really pretty fun. Changing up the dynamic of guns instead of medieval weapons, and changing the setting from fantasy to sci-fi helped make the whole MMO experience seem fresh. Unfortunately, there just didn't seem to be enough interest at the time when everyone was still high on the WoW expansion.
Ka-Chung!
Ka-Chung!
Let's be fair here. No video game story is even close to Shakespeare.
At best video game stories are as good as the best anime or B-grade action movies, which isn't saying much.
So I will say, yes, for a video game, the story is good.
Please tell me what you consider to be a good video game story though, so I can amuse myself.
Though I'd have to say the action market and the RPG hybrid market are different enough that Advent Rising still has a shot (provided they ever wanted to revive it).
Ka-Chung!
Ka-Chung!
I also rather liked King's Field: The Forbidden City (i.e. the PS2 King's Field) and that got 57% average on Gamerankings. It's a good solid dungeon crawler which once again, many people didn't get due to a very high learning curve.
Oh and Triggerheart Exelica is a blast (an unusual mix of shmup and puzzle game) and it only got a 60% average.
Steam ID : rwb36, Twitter : Werezompire,
Also Sega Superstar Tennis (Wii, average score 72). Aside from the complaint that they force you into particular control schemes for the challenges it's very, very fun. Great character/level choices as well. I was stunned the first time I ended up on the Outrun course.
The problem with Chrono Cross is not the actual plot, it's the way the plot is presented. Everything makes sense (and I mean everything) if you think it all through, but the pacing and order of events in the game is confusing. (See the Chrono Compendium site if you want proof.)
Regarding "At best video game stories are as good as the best anime or B-grade action movies" bit: Wait until Mother 3's in English. It can make English speakers people cry while playing it in Japanese. Frankly it's a great story entirely in its own right, regardless of medium.
Indigo Prophecy. Okay, yes, it goes to complete shit after the first few hours but that's okay because the first few hours are amazing and worth the purchase price alone. Start playing the game at night. Trust me. The part before it all falls apart is the creepiest game I've ever played.
Also, Final Fantasy III DS. Yes, one way to look at it is "mediocre, plotless grind-fest", but really I got a great nostalgia trip out of it.
I'm not sure what the score was for Suikoden 4 (I think they were decent) but I remember reviewers unfairly attacking the amount of time one spends on the ocean - because, at the time, I remember a certain Nintendo game that was praised with no mention of the amount of time one spends on a raft playing a dang flute to get the wind to blow the right direction. The entire Suikoden series is severely underrated, the second in the series trumping anything and everything Square has ever done.
A weary excuse that encourages and condones mediocrity.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
YES
I'd buy it too if it wasn't still $40.
Handmade Jewelry by me on EtsyGames for sale
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RICHARD!
I still haven't gotten your answer as to what you consider to be a good story in terms of games?
If you're saying that no game's story is good, then why bother bringing it up in regards to Chrono Cross? It should simply be assumed.
Look, I have two degrees in literature so I think I understand what a good story is and isn't. But when talking about media that aren't books, there's something of a slidable scale in terms of quality. If I judged movies in general against books, none of them would be considered good. If I judged action movies against most dramas, almost none of them would be considered passable because the way the genre works.
I tend to compare media to like media because it makes no sense to compare the quality of the narrative of Crime and Punishment and Grand Theft Auto IV because they work in very different ways just as different art forms and in terms of their narrative devices
Man, I hope you go into every single thread about every game just to say "Oh, the story was terrible. It wasn't nearly as good as War and Peace".
I'm not planning to give an answer because I don't consider it relevant.
On to more interesting fare: I agree with you, in part, that media shouldn't be compared against each other. In part. The "in part" comes due to the fact that, as I'm sure you recognize, the manner in which a story is conveyed is fundamentally different from movies to games to books. The fact that the same method of conveying a story does not apply does not mean that a meaningful, non-trite story of comparable value to War and Peace (for example) cannot be told.
Most of video games have trite, meaningless, shitty stories. That doesn't make them bad games. But that does not change the fact that they are shitty stories.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
Rondo of Swords, however, is sitting at a measly 68% which is an absolute fucking travesty. It's the gameplay, stupid!
I'll also second P.N.0.3. because it was just so damned fun and the gaming media just really didn't get it (lol everything is white how stupid!!!).
On the subject of video game stories, it really is all in the execution. Good writing, pacing, and presentation can turn the simplest stories into something much more exciting and engaging than initially expected. Portal is the best recent example of this, I think.
On the other hand, epic world spanning tales can easily be bogged down in messy, repetitive dialouge and/or overly complicated and poorly explained plot twists. Chrono Cross has the later in spades, and Luminous Arc is one of the grossest offenders of the first, with characters regularly exclaiming "Oh no! The witch is going to attack!" followed by "The evil witch is attacking!" and then "The witch attacked us and stole the Lapistier" with a "Damn that evil attacking witch for attacking us!" thrown in for good measure.
Gothic 3 was a great game that deserved all the hate because it didn't work and was broken. JoWood is incapable of releasing a game that works, no matter how much potential is there for fun. If you can see past the numerous numerous flaws and try to play the game, there is something great there under all the suck.