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[CoH/CoV] Arg, these tights are [chat]ing me.

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    RialeRiale I'm a little slow Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I suppose I phrased that poorly. It's not an accuracy boost of 95%, it's a boost of your base accuracy from 75% to 95%. And it's only 95% at level one. It goes down pretty quickly.

    The game is quite honestly already back at near ED levels. IOs have made many ridiculous pre-ED type builds possible, including perma hasten. Really though, ultimately CoX is not a MMO to play if you want a challenge. There are some difficult sections or ATs, but as a whole it is much less challenge oriented than other MMOs. And I'm fine with that. I get more fun out of coming up with new character concepts and exploring different powersets than I do out of any real challenge the content presents. I want to just sit down after a long day and have fun, not have a second job.

    And yes, in regards to the roleplaying aspect of the game and what you are fighting, you are more powerful, but aside from maybe FFXI, there aren't too many other MMOs that have low levels where your character is as generally weak as it is in CoX. Accuracy in particular is ridiculous compared to games like WoW and EQ2.

    Riale on
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    PbPb Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    The only thing I'll say about making ATs available to both side is, what exactly would that do to the villain population? I can't imagine it would be a good thing.

    Pb on
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    SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I'll say that the heroes/villain thing absolutely cuts you off from other players if you have one character that you like to play and it's sort of your identity.

    This is often my complaint with MMOs(like WoW, with not just the Horde/Alliance split, but an additional pvp/pve split) but then, I realize that despite my feelings, this game very much expects and incentivizes you to roll multiple characters.

    Septus on
    PSN: Kurahoshi1
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    Gear GirlGear Girl More class than a state university Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    There is a difference between..

    "Oh man that was a close fight but he justtt got me there with that last blast, oh well back to the drawing board"

    and

    "Cool I am handling this guy I am at about half health and he has maybe two hits left..miss..ok cool I'll recover...miss...shit well I'm at 1/4 health still I'll get him...hit..ok one more...miss...shit well come onnnnnn...miss...oh fuck one last chance...miss..dead"

    ..for me anyway

    Gear Girl on
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    s3rial ones3rial one Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Gear Girl wrote: »
    There is a difference between..

    "Oh man that was a close fight but he justtt got me there with that last blast, oh well back to the drawing board"

    and

    "Cool I am handling this guy I am at about half health and he has maybe two hits left..miss..ok cool I'll recover...miss...shit well I'm at 1/4 health still I'll get him...hit..ok one more...miss...shit well come onnnnnn...miss...oh fuck one last chance...miss..dead"

    ..for me anyway

    Agreed entirely.

    I want a challenge. More of a challenge would be great. But anything like the early game, where it's real heavy on the RNG... well, that's not a challenge.

    You can punish me severely for actually screwing up, and I won't mind, much. In some cases, it makes the game even more rewarding. But punishing me because some damned hi-tech dice roll didn't turn out right? That's not cool.

    And I realize that all of the combat in this game is, ultimately, just some sort of dice roll. But at higher levels, there's more too it. I chose the enhancements I used. I chose to take Combat Jumping instead of Hover. I chose to attack that guy. I chose where to aim that hold.

    The randomness, at higher levels, helps add a touch of the unexpected. At lower levels, it often seems like all there is is randomness.

    The scaling seems a bit odd, though. Realistically, players don't improve in accuracy between level 1 and level 12, yet the buff diminishes in effectiveness. And again, from 12-22, there's no substantial change in accuracy, but the buff keeps diminishing.

    Maybe they'll tweak it... something like a 30% accuracy boost from 1-12, and then 15% from 12-22 seems like it'd make more sense.

    s3rial one on
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    HarshLanguageHarshLanguage Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Even with Beginner's Luck, lowbies will still be missing plenty of times, like whenever they fight something higher than a white minion. It might result in even faster leveling sub-20, since fighting oranges/reds/purples will become easier.
    Pb wrote: »
    The only thing I'll say about making ATs available to both side is, what exactly would that do to the villain population? I can't imagine it would be a good thing.

    The player population would still want to run the generally higher-quality and more-convenient villain content, perhaps? Heroes is pretty bland at many levels by comparison.

    The point stands, though, that CoH/V split of the player base has caused problems. Imbalances in the hero/villain experiences are pretty obvious. It cuts both ways, but Villains got the shorter end of the stick overall. So more co-op zones or a shared market are fine by me, but then I don't really care much about that RP aspect of this RPG.

    HarshLanguage on
    QSwearing_trans_smooth_small.gif
    > turn on light

    Good start to the day. Pity it's going to be the worst one of your life. The light is now on.
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    RialeRiale I'm a little slow Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Yeah, I agree there. Though, the problem is somewhat lessened as you gain more attack powers. You can afford some misses because you can just fire another attack. It's the builds with incomplete attack chains who have to stand there waiting for something to recharge that suffer the most from early misses.

    Also, I haven't found too many of my characters have major accuracy problems after level 12 and DOs. Just a big boost from 1-12 is more than enough to please me.

    Riale on
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    A-PuckA-Puck Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Riale wrote: »
    I suppose I phrased that poorly. It's not an accuracy boost of 95%, it's a boost of your base accuracy from 75% to 95%. And it's only 95% at level one. It goes down pretty quickly.

    The game is quite honestly already back at near ED levels. IOs have made many ridiculous pre-ED type builds possible, including perma hasten. Really though, ultimately CoX is not a MMO to play if you want a challenge. There are some difficult sections or ATs, but as a whole it is much less challenge oriented than other MMOs. And I'm fine with that. I get more fun out of coming up with new character concepts and exploring different powersets than I do out of any real challenge the content presents. I want to just sit down after a long day and have fun, not have a second job.

    And yes, in regards to the roleplaying aspect of the game and what you are fighting, you are more powerful, but aside from maybe FFXI, there aren't too many other MMOs that have low levels where your character is as generally weak as it is in CoX. Accuracy in particular is ridiculous compared to games like WoW and EQ2.

    *nod*
    I hear what you are saying, and in general I agree with the spirit of what you are saying. There is a reason that I have been subbed to this game for almost four years. (holy crap, I've been giving these people money for almost 4 years *sob*) Much of that reason is related to the fact that I can get something accomplished if I only have 30 mins to jump online. I LOVE the fact that there is almost no grind in CoX, and I don't have to go on three hour raids with 50 people to get a chance of getting the piece of gear that I need in order to get to go to the next three hour raid...

    Fuck
    That
    Shit.

    Respectfully, however, I disagree with your statement about low level characters being weak in CoX. What other game can a 4th level melee type jump into combat with 4 mobs a level higher than you are and have a reasonable chance of winning? I may miss half the time, but I will probably win the fight. Take a forth level character in WoW, jump 3 mobs a level lower than you are then enjoy your rez sickness. (Note: I only played WoW briefly, so I may very well have just sucked and most people would be able to do this. Quit injecting reality into my philosophising)

    A-Puck on
    Soon... soon I will install you, my precious.
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    PbPb Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Pb wrote: »
    The only thing I'll say about making ATs available to both side is, what exactly would that do to the villain population? I can't imagine it would be a good thing.

    The player population would still want to run the generally higher-quality and more-convenient villain content, perhaps? Heroes is pretty bland at many levels by comparison.

    I'd agree, except the population has spoken, and from what I see more people play heroes than villains. That might be different if both launched at the same time, but at this point I don't think V-side is going to ever catch up.

    Pb on
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    AccualtAccualt Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    s3rial one wrote: »
    Oh come on, Acc. The number of players in a team has absolutely nothing to do with preventing interaction. It's like you're intentionally being dense.
    Funny, I was thinking the same thing about your last post but was trying to be polite.
    Jim's team is filled with 8 players, Nick can't interact with Jim until Jim leaves his current team. Jim leaves his team and is now able to interact with Nick.
    Jim is playing a hero but Nick is playing a villain. Jim cannot interact with Nick unless he switches to a villain character. Jim switches and is now able to interact with Nick.
    s3rial one wrote: »
    1. It's highly doubtful that the interaction between heroes and villains being channeled specifically into PvP was in any serious way intended to mimic comic books or foster roleplaying. Both ideas are replete with problems.

    I don't know how you can possibly believe that, well the fostering roleplaying part I do because I don't believe that. But in comics villains fight heroes, they don't hang out and they very rarely help each other in battles. On those rare occasions they do the villain frequently tries to stab the hero in the back once his goals have been met. So in the setting of the game, a RPG set in a comic book style universe, hero and villain PvP being the main focus of their interaction is the only logical choice.
    s3rial one wrote: »
    2. The AT example was designed to illustrate this, which you missed. Twice.
    You threw it in out of nowhere the first time and completely ignored what I said the second time while trying to say I defended it, which I clearly didn't. It is a horrible illustration.

    While I have no problems with all ATs being available to both sides at least the five new Villain ATs they come up with tried to have "evil" put into the design. When people lose their temper this is universally considered bad, when people take joy in kicking someone who is down this is bad, when people sneak up behind someone and stab them in the back without giving them a chance to fight back this is bad, when a person takes sadistic pleasure in making enemies helpless this is bad. So the mechanics of the new ATs were designed with the characteristics of a villain in mind, even the more offensive nature of the ATs. Still this is beside the point and has nothing to do with why villains and heroes shouldn't always being cooping together in blissful harmony.
    s3rial one wrote: »
    3. Typical players - remember the ones you characterized as being so stupid as to be confused by a mission difficulty slider that said "spawn more mobs" at the field agent a few weeks ago - probably don't hang out in global channels with active members where they can get a team on the opposite side if needed. Most of them aren't even using the group tool. They /b "level x whatever LFT" when they want a team. If they switch sides in search of people to team with, well, now there's 51 heroes and 49 villains, but they're still not able to play the game together.

    They CAN play it together, even with their rudimentary ability to find groups, by switching sides. The player is not prevented from interacting with other players, only certain characters with certain specific other characters. This is a rather standard system for multiplayer video games.

    Accualt on
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    PbPb Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Accualt wrote: »
    s3rial one wrote: »
    Oh come on, Acc. The number of players in a team has absolutely nothing to do with preventing interaction. It's like you're intentionally being dense.
    Funny, I was thinking the same thing about your last post but was trying to be polite.
    Jim's team is filled with 8 players, Nick can't interact with Jim until Jim leaves his current team. Jim leaves his team and is now able to interact with Nick.
    Jim is playing a hero but Nick is playing a villain. Jim cannot interact with Nick unless he switches to a villain character. Jim switches and is now able to interact with Nick.

    That is in no way on the same scale as the rift between villains and heroes, and the fact that even when they're on the same team they're restricted in what they can see and trade (read: nothing).

    Pb on
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    Gear GirlGear Girl More class than a state university Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    There was some friendly ass conversation going on in here. Please don't ruin it Accualt/s3rial. So far so good but I see this possibly going south.

    [tiny]Even duck is being nice.[/tiny]

    Gear Girl on
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    PbPb Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    So I made it to level 2 on a VEAT before the servers went down, and things look okay so far. VEATs are going to be locked into Kalinda, which makes sense (but is still unfortunate). Word on the forums is that Banes blow Stalkers out of the water, but we'll see what makes it to live. Still, it's fairly encouraging.

    Pb on
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    s3rial ones3rial one Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Accualt wrote: »
    Jim's team is filled with 8 players, Nick can't interact with Jim until Jim leaves his current team. Jim leaves his team and is now able to interact with Nick.
    Jim is playing a hero but Nick is playing a villain. Jim cannot interact with Nick unless he switches to a villain character. Jim switches and is now able to interact with Nick.
    Yes, but what if Nick wants to level his controller, and Jim wants to level his brute? They can't group.

    The only way switching sides works for interaction is if the players have something they don't mind switching to.

    As for the team caps, come on! Do you not recognize that there's a practical, logistical reason for that? Much more than 8 people on a team, and every team you joined would feel like the slideshow that ensues in the Portal Corp. courtyard every time the Rikti invade. Plus, you can interact with other people. You team sucks? You can find a new one before you leave. You can shop at the AH; stop and help that guy on a crummy Carnie hunt in PI; or chat in /b with other people in the zone.
    Accualt wrote: »
    I don't know how you can possibly believe that, well the fostering roleplaying part I do because I don't believe that. But in comics villains fight heroes, they don't hang out and they very rarely help each other in battles. On those rare occasions they do the villain frequently tries to stab the hero in the back once his goals have been met. So in the setting of the game, a RPG set in a comic book style universe, hero and villain PvP being the main focus of their interaction is the only logical choice.
    Yes, because in the comics, the villains and heroes only fight in specific, designated areas. And it's always a death match with no goal and nothing to be gained by either side. And when one of them gets tired of it, they can just walk away.

    Let's be honest: balance issues aside, the concept of CoX's PvP is at best just lip service to how hero-villain interactions play out in the comic books. It's just some cheesy forced dichotomy of super-powered boyscouts vs. angry puppy-kickers that requires putting your character advancement on hold to participate in.

    It doesn't deal with the legions of characters that are somewhere in between hero and villain. It doesn't allow villain-on-villain or hero-on-hero fights (which the game's own story line features). It's just Superman vs. Doomsday with multiple players.
    Accualt wrote: »
    When people lose their temper this is universally considered bad, when people take joy in kicking someone who is down this is bad, when people sneak up behind someone and stab them in the back without giving them a chance to fight back this is bad, when a person takes sadistic pleasure in making enemies helpless this is bad. So the mechanics of the new ATs were designed with the characteristics of a villain in mind, even the more offensive nature of the ATs. Still this is beside the point and has nothing to do with why villains and heroes shouldn't always being cooping together in blissful harmony.
    ...and yet all these things are featured in heroes in the comic books. Like Hulk, who goes nuts and starts smashing things when he's angry, or Batman, who makes a career out of hiding in the shadows hitting people in the back, or Wolverine, who seems to just revel in inflicting any damage he can, cheap shot or not.

    You say it's a bad example, but I disagree. If we're dividing up the teams with the aims of having some comic book-styled interaction between the good guys and the bad guys... well, I won't insult you with some rhetorical question. When you're looking at the likes of Batman, Wolverine, and the Hulk, and using their character traits to define the evil ATs, you've pretty much missed the boat on trying to make your product more like a comic book.

    In short, PvP isn't like the comic books, and forced AT alignment isn't like the comic books.

    I can see where you're coming from, wanting more villain-only content. I can understand that. But you're couching in it a very narrow view of the way things ought to be and two claims (RPG-like and comic book-like) that are prima facie false.

    s3rial one on
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    RialeRiale I'm a little slow Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    A-Puck wrote: »
    Respectfully, however, I disagree with your statement about low level characters being weak in CoX. What other game can a 4th level melee type jump into combat with 4 mobs a level higher than you are and have a reasonable chance of winning? I may miss half the time, but I will probably win the fight. Take a forth level character in WoW, jump 3 mobs a level lower than you are then enjoy your rez sickness. (Note: I only played WoW briefly, so I may very well have just sucked and most people would be able to do this. Quit injecting reality into my philosophising)
    That's a difference in game design and not relative power. Combat in CoX is focused on one character vs many weak NPCs, unlike most traditional MMOs like WoW where you focus on one or maybe two mobs at once. The standard heroic spawn of 3 white minions or a minion and a lieutenant is relative in power to one mob in WoW. That doesn't make the characters in CoX any stronger (outside of perhaps some kind of RP perspective). The bar for spawn size is just different.

    And there are many, many power combos and archetypes that have intense difficulty soloing on heroic early on. Hell, even my low level brutes get fried solo sometimes on mongoose's missions just because they whiff so much.

    I have nothing against gameplay that challenges my skill. But huge strings of random missions that turn an easily winnable fight into a complete potshot have nothing to do with the challenge of the game, just the frustration.

    Riale on
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    Macro9Macro9 Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    There are so many VEATS in Mercy right now. My mind is about to melt.

    Macro9 on
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    ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I'm not gonna resub my main account just for test, so still no VEATs for me for a while


    So, like

    If anyone's got some cool screens

    Maek poast already

    Scooter on
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    s3rial ones3rial one Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I'm really, really interested to see how this branching system with the VEATs works. I know it's incredibly unlikely, but has anyone hit that point, yet?

    s3rial one on
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    Macro9Macro9 Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I don't have a 50 villain so I don't know anything about them. My Mace Brute owns for only being level 2 though. Ignore broadcast if you are in Mercy. It's Atlas times ten.

    EDIT:

    The new power info thingy is like having City if Data in the game. No more alt tabbing.

    Macro9 on
    58pwo4vxupcr.png
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    RialeRiale I'm a little slow Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    s3rial one wrote: »
    I'm really, really interested to see how this branching system with the VEATs works. I know it's incredibly unlikely, but has anyone hit that point, yet?
    This post should answer all of your questions. Basically though, it functions like a forced respec with mutually exclusive pools.

    Riale on
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    Macro9Macro9 Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    After reading that I want a VEAT. They look to be able to hold their own in battle and bring along defender level buffs. I think a Kheld somewhere just died.

    Macro9 on
    58pwo4vxupcr.png
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    RialeRiale I'm a little slow Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Macro9 wrote: »
    After reading that I want a VEAT. They look to be able to hold their own in battle and bring along defender level buffs. I think the Khelds everywhere just rerolled as Soldiers of Arachnos.

    Riale on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    quick PL my 44 Brute to 50 plz

    Pony on
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    Macro9Macro9 Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    You can save/load all of your graphical and control settings now.

    Macro9 on
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    NarbusNarbus Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Patch notes are up

    No WP nerf, for those of you who were upset.

    Pony wrote: »
    quick PL my 44 Brute to 50 plz

    Um...sure. when will you be on next.

    Narbus on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Narbus wrote: »
    Patch notes are up

    No WP nerf, for those of you who were upset.

    Pony wrote: »
    quick PL my 44 Brute to 50 plz

    Um...sure. when will you be on next.

    I'm on right now!

    Pony on
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    Macro9Macro9 Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    All these small QoL changes could be the best part of i12.

    Macro9 on
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    s3rial ones3rial one Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Holy shit, they fixed OSA! I never thought I'd see the day!

    EDIT: And you can push MM pets out of the way, too. That'll make MM-heavy groups far less painful.

    s3rial one on
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    Gear GirlGear Girl More class than a state university Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Cool, you can ignore the spammers straight from the e-mail window now.

    Gear Girl on
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    CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    s3rial one wrote: »
    Holy shit, they fixed OSA! I never thought I'd see the day!

    EDIT: And you can push MM pets out of the way, too. That'll make MM-heavy groups far less painful.

    The being able to push MM pets around is awesome. Castle has thought he'd fixed OSA before, so I'll be cautiously optimistic on this front.

    Seeing this kind of awesome stuff coming, from the QoL changes (Beginners Luck? Fuck yeah!) to the VEAT stuff is really exciting, and I haven't been playing much the last week or so. This open beta came at just the right time to get my interest in CoH back up.

    Corvus on
    :so_raven:
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    CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Gear Girl wrote: »
    Cool, you can ignore the spammers straight from the e-mail window now.

    Thank god. Cause trying to type out /ignore_spammer aoahlsdhalshdlashdlasjdlasa is a pain in the ass.

    Corvus on
    :so_raven:
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    Gear GirlGear Girl More class than a state university Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    • Users can now choose to pay with influence or free costume token at the Tailor.

    Yes! I no longer have to waste a token on changing my hair color or something.

    It is these little things that make me happy.

    Gear Girl on
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    ArcasArcas Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I need to hit 50 with my ninja/traps so I can use the VEATs.

    Arcas on
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    CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Wait, you don't have a 50 villain?

    Corvus on
    :so_raven:
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    ArcasArcas Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Three... I wanna play MM so I can play my VEAT whenever everyone else makes a new character.

    Arcas on
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    NarbusNarbus Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Most user options can now be saved to file and loaded from file. If a default setting file is saved, all newly created characters will use the default file to set initial options. The options window has buttons added to save and load default files. Non-default files can be saved and loaded via slash commands.

    If this means i no longer have to spend 20 minutes redoing chattabs everytime I make a new character I will be very, very happy indeed.


    Also, what's OSA?

    Narbus on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Narbus wrote: »
    Most user options can now be saved to file and loaded from file. If a default setting file is saved, all newly created characters will use the default file to set initial options. The options window has buttons added to save and load default files. Non-default files can be saved and loaded via slash commands.

    If this means i no longer have to spend 20 minutes redoing chattabs everytime I make a new character I will be very, very happy indeed.


    Also, what's OSA?

    Oil Slick Arrow. It's a good power, but had a longstanding bug where when you blew it up, it would make your pets run away from the AoE as if they were being damaged by it.

    Considering it was a power that some Masterminds wanted, this is a pretty big issue.

    Pony on
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    NocrenNocren Lt Futz, Back in Action North CarolinaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Neither do I. I think Pyroactive is still sitting at 37 or so.

    Nocren on
    newSig.jpg
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    NocrenNocren Lt Futz, Back in Action North CarolinaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Corvus wrote: »
    Wait, you don't have a 50 villain?

    Neither do I. I think Pyroactive is still sitting at 37 or so.

    dammit you jail!!! not alllowing me to edit my post!

    Nocren on
    newSig.jpg
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    HarshLanguageHarshLanguage Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Gear Girl wrote: »
    • Users can now choose to pay with influence or free costume token at the Tailor.

    Yes! I no longer have to waste a token on changing my hair color or something.

    It is these little things that make me happy.

    Me too. I am really surprised they did this, though, because I figured they wanted older characters to have to burn off hoarded costume change tokens. They really added up. But hey, I'm not complaining, this is a great player-friendly change.

    Oh and:
    • Fixed the rooting problem where certain buff toggles were activated before they were ready.
    I know they already said this fix was coming, but it's nice to finally see. Over half my chars have at least one long-animation anchor toggle.

    And more nice stuff (they really worked on the QoL/UI issues, this is great, and the sort of stuff that rarely got attention before):

    Functional mouse scrollwheel in windows, finally!
    Mission level will be displayed in the header window.
    Contact list organization.
    You can see a list of pets' powers!
    You can get a global name from the chat window, without attempting to add as a gfriend. And get gname from local name, and vice versa.
    Teleport reticle fixes (no more red circles even for good target locations, I hope)
    Zone event announcements and some with waypoints! Long overdue, great to finally see.
    Controller crit hold text message - nice.


    Also, I'm writing player notes on all you guys so I can keep track of your hijinks. Fear my ratings! :lol:

    HarshLanguage on
    QSwearing_trans_smooth_small.gif
    > turn on light

    Good start to the day. Pity it's going to be the worst one of your life. The light is now on.
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