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Academic Language, or why they done got to talk all fancy-like

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  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited May 2008

    There is no reason for the author's intent to have any more value than any other reader's

    I think it's important to figure out what the author was trying to say before you come up with your own opinion. Need to know the rules before you can break them type of thing.

    I'm not saying it's the only valid interpretation, I just think it's important to know.

    Inquisitor on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    One of the larger issues I find is that so many different groups use the same jargon words with vastly different meanings.

    It makes having a wide range of interests a vocabularic nightmare.

    And I have invented like four words in this thread already.

    --

    Inq: It's worse than that, there's also "What was the author REALLY writing about, subconsciously?"

    Incenjucar on
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Jewcar: Eh, that falls too far into the realm of guesswork in my opinion to have any more worth than any other interpretation of the literature.

    Inquisitor on
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Inquisitor wrote: »

    There is no reason for the author's intent to have any more value than any other reader's

    I think it's important to figure out what the author was trying to say before you come up with your own opinion. Need to know the rules before you can break them type of thing.

    I'm not saying it's the only valid interpretation, I just think it's important to know.

    again, the author's conscious intention has no more inherent value than any other reader's. it is perfectly possible that any given interpretation of a work has more support in the text than the supposed authorial intent. in many cases, the author says a lot of things that he or she doesn't intend to say. is that authorial intent, or something else? the only way to validate a reading is to evaluate it on its own merit. to analyze by the author's supposed intent, and to assign value based on that intent, is officially a fallacy.

    Evil Multifarious on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Jewcar: Eh, that falls too far into the realm of guesswork in my opinion to have any more worth than any other interpretation of the literature.

    None of it actually changes anything anyways, but huge swaths of literature are devoted to psychoanalyzing other literature, and other psychoanalytic literature.

    Think of it this way: Okay, you learn the True Meaning of Moby-Dick.

    What have you gained?

    True Meaning of Moby-Dick

    ???

    Profit

    Incenjucar on
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    again, the author's conscious intention has no more inherent value than any other reader's. it is perfectly possible that any given interpretation of a work has more support in the text than the supposed authorial intent. in many cases, the author says a lot of things that he or she doesn't intend to say. is that authorial intent, or something else? the only way to validate a reading is to evaluate it on its own merit. to analyze by the author's supposed intent, and to assign value based on that intent, is officially a fallacy.

    I guess what I'm trying to say more is, if the author was say, a known women's right activist, it probably couldn't hurt to look at their work from the perspective of women's right, in addition to any other analysis you might feel is appropriate.

    Inquisitor on
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    One of the larger issues I find is that so many different groups use the same jargon words with vastly different meanings.

    This. A thousand times this.

    It doesn't even require a purely academic setting. Do you have any idea how many words there are for dirt? And they all have slightly different meanings that are compounded upon when viewed through the lens of a different profession/education. Does re-grade mean to push the existing dirt around, apply new dirt from the excavation, import in topsoil, or did Billy erase his first answer but the scantron miss it?

    moniker on
  • JebusUDJebusUD Adventure! Candy IslandRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I just read Margaret Mead's Coming of Age in Samoa. She specifically takes a jab at this kind of writing in that book. I think that there is a need to be able to explain the complex arguments in academia to the general public for the benefit of everyone. Once in a while someone has to write somthing that neatly summarizes without having to invest half of your life studying a disipline.

    Having read many anthropological theory, I know that there is a danger of going too far. The practical side of anthropology suffers if your ideas about shaping culture are explained in terms that the common person wont understand. Influencing the way culture works cant happen by only influencing academics.

    Im sure the practical side of other social sciences also suffer.

    JebusUD on
    and I wonder about my neighbors even though I don't have them
    but they're listening to every word I say
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    A lot of academics are simply not going to want to be involved in the larger social dialogue, thanks to sue-happy parents and crazy fundie groups.

    They already have to hide information from you in required school levels to get through their careers in one piece.

    Incenjucar on
  • JebusUDJebusUD Adventure! Candy IslandRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    A lot of academics are simply not going to want to be involved in the larger social dialogue, thanks to sue-happy parents and crazy fundie groups.

    They already have to hide information from you in required school levels to get through their careers in one piece.

    I dont think this applys because we are talking about really heavy academic papers. They dont read those in high schools.

    JebusUD on
    and I wonder about my neighbors even though I don't have them
    but they're listening to every word I say
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    JebusUD wrote: »
    I just read Margaret Mead's Coming of Age in Samoa. She specifically takes a jab at this kind of writing in that book. I think that there is a need to be able to explain the complex arguments in academia to the general public for the benefit of everyone. Once in a while someone has to write somthing that neatly summarizes without having to invest half of your life studying a disipline.

    Having read many anthropological theory, I know that there is a danger of going too far. The practical side of anthropology suffers if your ideas about shaping culture are explained in terms that the common person wont understand. Influencing the way culture works cant happen by only influencing academics.

    Im sure the practical side of other social sciences also suffer.

    Imagine when discussion of the arts, which has far less of a practical side to ground it, encounters the same problem. It compounds itself. Clearly the arts are important, but people reject them because they encounter criticism that seems deliberately obtuse, and in some cases might actually be deliberately obtuse.

    Another, more worrisome case of a similar phenomenon is legalese. Legal language is a fucking abortion. It is deliberately twisty and hard to understand, and deliberately uses jargon (or at least was founded on deliberate use of jargon) to make it more difficult for the common folk to get a fix on it. And this is something that has a profound, fundemental role in the very function of society.

    Evil Multifarious on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    JebusUD wrote: »
    I dont think this applys because we are talking about really heavy academic papers. They dont read those in high schools.

    How many heavy academic concepts do you think most people can grasp?

    People don't believe in evolution.


    Some people don't even believe that the Earth is round.

    --

    Legal language is an issue all its own, and requires huge amounts of bloodshed to change. :(

    Incenjucar on
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    The Earth isn't round. It's rounded, but we aren't sitting in a sphere's gravity well at the moment.

    moniker on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I never said sphere.

    It's neither smooth nor does it even maintain a steady shape.

    Thing is mostly fluid.

    We're sitting on a lava bubble.

    Incenjucar on
  • JebusUDJebusUD Adventure! Candy IslandRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    JebusUD wrote: »
    I dont think this applys because we are talking about really heavy academic papers. They dont read those in high schools.

    How many heavy academic concepts do you think most people can grasp?

    People don't believe in evolution.


    Some people don't even believe that the Earth is round.

    But they are obfuscating it, not just for idiots, but for people in other disciplines as well. And for not idiots. If you read some anthropology theory you would be like "what the hell are these people talking about?"

    Similar to if I read theories about child molestation or whatever it is you do. :winky:

    There need to be some people that bring it in a bit and explain it. But these people are almost always shunned by the larger academic community.

    JebusUD on
    and I wonder about my neighbors even though I don't have them
    but they're listening to every word I say
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    First rule of Academic Club...

    It's an insular culture.

    I already explained this.

    They don't want to be involved with the rest of the world.

    The exceptions are usually actual writers.

    Incenjucar on
  • JebusUDJebusUD Adventure! Candy IslandRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    First rule of Academic Club...

    It's an insular culture.

    I already explained this.

    They don't want to be involved with the rest of the world.

    The exceptions are usually actual writers.

    Yeah, well, that makes them dicks then. They are doing research supposedly to improve things and then don't want to explain to anyone whats going on? Seems like a pretty dick move to me.

    JebusUD on
    and I wonder about my neighbors even though I don't have them
    but they're listening to every word I say
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Dammit, Shepard!Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    JebusUD wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    First rule of Academic Club...

    It's an insular culture.

    I already explained this.

    They don't want to be involved with the rest of the world.

    The exceptions are usually actual writers.

    Yeah, well, that makes them dicks then. They are doing research supposedly to improve things and then don't want to explain to anyone whats going on? Seems like a pretty dick move to me.

    Most academics aren't trying to "improve" anything. They're trying to pad their CVs so that they can land a tenure-track job, achieve tenure, and then take it easy until retirement.

    Hachface on
  • edited May 2008
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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Hachface wrote: »
    Most academics aren't trying to "improve" anything. They're trying to pad their CVs so that they can land a tenure-track job, achieve tenure, and then take it easy until retirement.

    This.


    One of the best and most respected profs at my university? Yeah. One of her journal articles I ran across in one of my higher level classes was about Emily Dickinson being a bisexual who was into being dominated.

    --

    ELM: I've known some truly awesome and useful academics with broad minds and interests. They're just not very high on the totem pole.

    Incenjucar on
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    I think this whole thing comes down to whether you know what Erithacus rubecula is.
    Yes, we can use common terminology, but that is less exact than the technical terminology.


    As for sentence structure, written English is never like spoken English, which is why stunning pieces of oratory seem stuttered on the page and vivid written descriptions are hard to follow if listened to. Those skilled in the written word are also more able to move around sentence structure to fit their train of thought and don't notice when it becomes challenging to laymen.

    Scalfin on
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  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    3 pages for this thread to become outright anti-academia.

    Being an intellectual is like being a patriot: if you claim you are one, you probably aren't.

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  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Scalfin wrote: »
    I think this whole thing comes down to whether you know what Erithacus rubecula is.
    Yes, we can use common terminology, but that is less exact than the technical terminology.


    As for sentence structure, written English is never like spoken English, which is why stunning pieces of oratory seem stuttered on the page and vivid written descriptions are hard to follow if listened to. Those skilled in the written word are also more able to move around sentence structure to fit their train of thought and don't notice when it becomes challenging to laymen.

    This doesn't really address the problem I am raising.

    Technical terminology, in the first place, does not disrupt communication when you have learned it, in the case of most sciences. Erithacus rubecula is a clearly defined, solidly known concept. Once you know what it is, you know what it is. This is not the case in social sciences and arts criticism, where terminology changes in its meaning from school of though to school of thought, even paper to paper, even page to page. Most problematically, the terminology of academia often takes the form of specially invented or modified words, or even otherwise standard words that have been completely redefined to have a new meaning.

    Secondly, if your writing is hard to follow not just for laymen but for professional academics in your own field with a similar area of expertise, you are not "skilled in the written word." The most important element in the realm of academic writing should always be effectiveness of communication. The whole point is to disseminate and share ideas. I have read many articles and essays that are not communicating anywhere near as efficiently as possible. Many of these essays are vitally important in their respective areas of study. That is a problem.

    Evil Multifarious on
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Dammit, Shepard!Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    One of the best and most respected profs at my university? Yeah. One of her journal articles I ran across in one of my higher level classes was about Emily Dickinson being a bisexual who was into being dominated.

    I am pretty certain that I have both read and cited that article in my Queer Theory class last semester.
    Anyway, I certainly would not characterize myself as an anti-academic. In fact, it is my fondest wish to one day become a professional academic. But I do think that the system, especially in literature, is clogged by hacks--or if you want to be more charitable, by people who got into academia because they wanted to teach, and see research as something they have to do to get a teaching job. I sympathize completely with the latter group.

    Hachface on
  • VeegeezeeVeegeezee Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    It makes sense to me that scientific academia should be insular, to a degree, because the end product of the research contributes to development of stuff the lay public doesn't need to understand in order to make use of. I feel like the same reasoning might be applied to legal academia and the wanky language, just insofar as there's somebody with the job of translating the mumbojumbo into human-speak for the people it applies to.

    But academic language in the liberal arts is something I just don't understand the utility of.

    Veegeezee on
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Dammit, Shepard!Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Veegeezee wrote: »

    But academic language in the liberal arts is something I just don't understand the utility of.

    Humanities professors feel like they are under constant pressure to demonstrate the worth of their fields to university administration, since by far most funding gets pulled in through the science departments. I think a lot of the jargon of critical theory was subconsciously devised to make the humanities resemble the sciences so that English profs. could point to their unnecessarily dense papers and point out that they are doing important, specialized work. Like most bad writing, academese is based on fear. I for one don't think the study of the humanities requires justification, and do not foresee a time when humanities education is excluded from our universities, so I think that academics could afford to write more transparently. In trying to prove their worth, I think they just alienate people.

    Hachface on
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Scalfin wrote: »
    I think this whole thing comes down to whether you know what Erithacus rubecula is.
    Yes, we can use common terminology, but that is less exact than the technical terminology.


    As for sentence structure, written English is never like spoken English, which is why stunning pieces of oratory seem stuttered on the page and vivid written descriptions are hard to follow if listened to. Those skilled in the written word are also more able to move around sentence structure to fit their train of thought and don't notice when it becomes challenging to laymen.

    This doesn't really address the problem I am raising.

    Technical terminology, in the first place, does not disrupt communication when you have learned it, in the case of most sciences. Erithacus rubecula is a clearly defined, solidly known concept. Once you know what it is, you know what it is. This is not the case in social sciences and arts criticism, where terminology changes in its meaning from school of though to school of thought, even paper to paper, even page to page. Most problematically, the terminology of academia often takes the form of specially invented or modified words, or even otherwise standard words that have been completely redefined to have a new meaning.

    Secondly, if your writing is hard to follow not just for laymen but for professional academics in your own field with a similar area of expertise, you are not "skilled in the written word." The most important element in the realm of academic writing should always be effectiveness of communication. The whole point is to disseminate and share ideas. I have read many articles and essays that are not communicating anywhere near as efficiently as possible. Many of these essays are vitally important in their respective areas of study. That is a problem.

    Mathematics has a special meaning of the word "half." In math, a half is one of two equal parts. In modern lay usage, a half is one of two parts. In some archival usage, a half is somehow one of between two and six parts.

    Scalfin on
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  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I've read that before, but I've never heard that supposed modern lay usage. No one I've ever met, heard, spoken to or read has ever used "half" to mean anything but one of two equal parts.

    Evil Multifarious on
  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Likewise. And I'll get onto my critique of Post Structuralism ASAP. But not right now. Work is not conducive to such things.

    Apothe0sis on
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    I've read that before, but I've never heard that supposed modern lay usage. No one I've ever met, heard, spoken to or read has ever used "half" to mean anything but one of two equal parts.

    It's fallen out of usage because grammar nazis think just one of two parts is improper usage and everybody takes math.

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  • wazillawazilla Having a late dinner Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Post-structuralism is the widest swath of modern literary theory, right? It encompasses deconstruction and its ilk?

    Also: Philosophers tend to suck at writing. The lack of standardization of terms, as pointed out earlier in the thread, sucks.

    wazilla on
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  • BobCescaBobCesca Is a girl Birmingham, UKRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Hachface wrote: »
    JebusUD wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    First rule of Academic Club...

    It's an insular culture.

    I already explained this.

    They don't want to be involved with the rest of the world.

    The exceptions are usually actual writers.

    Yeah, well, that makes them dicks then. They are doing research supposedly to improve things and then don't want to explain to anyone whats going on? Seems like a pretty dick move to me.

    Most academics aren't trying to "improve" anything. They're trying to pad their CVs so that they can land a tenure-track job, achieve tenure, and then take it easy until retirement.


    That's not true for me, in fact I'm rather insulted.

    The fact is I'm writing for other academics interested in the same area. If students also happen to read it that's all well and good. Then again, I write in an area where it's unlikely many people except academics are going to want to read any papers I write.

    BobCesca on
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Dammit, Shepard!Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    What area do you write in? To be honest, what you quoted is badly worded on my part. I'm speaking almost entirely about academia as I've experienced it, which is in the literature department.

    Hachface on
  • BobCescaBobCesca Is a girl Birmingham, UKRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Hachface wrote: »
    What area do you write in?

    Classical literature, specifically Latin epigram.

    BobCesca on
  • themightypuckthemightypuck MontanaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    DP DP

    themightypuck on
    “Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
    ― Marcus Aurelius

    Path of Exile: themightypuck
  • themightypuckthemightypuck MontanaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    Post-structuralism is nonsense.

    End of thread.

    So long as you define PS in a certain way. I think Foucault is brilliant. Of course he was called a PS but claimed PS ws nonsense so go figure.

    As to the thread. Language is about communication and communication is about more than just some idealized understanding. Three decent explanations for jargon are 1) more clarity--this is the reason doctors need to study anatomy really, really hard and why lawyers get stuck with things like "mutatis mutandis;" 2) more community--people aren't robots, they like to create their little clubs and language is a huge part of that; and 3) language is a moving target that evolves in a community--you hang out with academics long enough you start to talk/write like them.

    themightypuck on
    “Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
    ― Marcus Aurelius

    Path of Exile: themightypuck
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    This may be orthogonal to the arguments in this thread, but I wonder if the internet, and the recent severe advancements in the means we have to communicate may make some facets of academia and jargon obsolete, or at least redundant. Being able to link to referenced papers or paragraphs, for example. It would be interesting if manuscripts in general were to move to a Wiki-like format, such that references to broad arguments, positions, etcetera (as jargon is commonly used) could be far more explicit and specific.

    Loren Michael on
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  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    Post-structuralism is nonsense.

    End of thread.

    So long as you define PS in a certain way. I think Foucault is brilliant. Of course he was called a PS but claimed PS ws nonsense so go figure.

    As long as you define brilliant in a certain way, I agree with you.

    The way you must define it is "not brilliant".

    Apothe0sis on
  • ZsetrekZsetrek Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Legal language is an issue all its own, and requires huge amounts of bloodshed to change. :(

    Legal academic papers tend to be quite good, I found - if only because they come from a discipline that is structured around putting forward complicated arguments in a form that's easy to digest.

    Not to say that there aren't some stinkers, though...

    Zsetrek on
  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    While it's not really relevant the the whole writing side of this thread, I was just thinking about creating a thred, but since this one is already somewhat related to the issue. If it's too off topic, feel free to split. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120995103004666569.html.
    Ms. Venkatesan lectured in freshman composition, intended to introduce undergraduates to the rigors of expository argument. "My students were very bully-ish, very aggressive, and very disrespectful," she told Tyler Brace of the Dartmouth Review. "They'd argue with your ideas." This caused "subversiveness," a principle English professors usually favor.

    The agenda of Ms. Venkatesan's seminar, then, was to "problematize" technology and the life sciences. Students told me that most of the "problems" owed to her impenetrable lectures and various eruptions when students indicated skepticism of literary theory. She counters that such skepticism was "intolerant of ideas" and "questioned my knowledge in very inappropriate ways." Ms. Venkatesan, who is of South Asian descent, also alleges that critics were motivated by racism, though it is unclear why.

    Basically, this professor left Dartmouth because of a "hostile" working environment where her students didn't agree with her. Personally, from the way the material is described, I'd have problems with it too. And if she isn't able to take criticisms, maybe she should avoid having discussions in her classes, or just teach upper-div classes.

    Spoit on
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