Fascinating, and also confusing. Where did Lilith's grievance arise from, since God didn't subordinate Eve to Adam until after they ate, and he did it as punishment for her eating first, then tempting him.
For that matter, how could Adam and Lilith even have anything to bicker about prior to eating from the tree of knowledge? The addition of Lilith to Eden seems to muddy the moral message of the story even more. Hmmm.
According to the Alphabet of Ben Sira, because she wanted to be on top.
After God created Adam, who was alone, He said, 'It is not good for man to be alone.' He then created a woman for Adam, from the earth, as He had created Adam himself, and called her Lilith. Adam and Lilith immediately began to fight. She said, 'I will not lie below,' and he said, 'I will not lie beneath you, but only on top. For you are fit only to be in the bottom position, while I am to be the superior one.' Lilith responded, 'We are equal to each other inasmuch as we were both created from the earth.' But they would not listen to one another. When Lilith saw this, she pronounced the Ineffable Name and flew away into the air.
It's interesting, and it's certainly what I asked for. I remain skeptical that it could have been part of Genesis at any point though, as it just doesn't fit the narrative, and confuses the message of the Eden story (personal responsibility: ie God punished Adam and Eve not because of what they did, but because Adam blamed Eve, and Eve blamed the serpent, and neither took responsibility for actions that were clearly their own). Genesis then segues neatly into Cain and Abel ("Am I my brothers keeper?" ie: denial of moral responsibility), the story of Noah, who though obedient, does nothing beyond what he is asked (ie: he saves only himself and his family, God did not tell Noah not to save other people, he left it to Noah to exercise collective responsibility, and Noah failed horribly, indeed, the root of the name "Noah" in Hebrew is the same as restful re: lazy). Anyway, I totally digress, and am probably horribly paraphrasing Rabbi Sacks, but my point was merely that if that story of Lilith has a lesson, it would be about marital responsibility, and there's simply no way that that lesson would be placed before the lessons in the stories of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Noah and the flood etc.
So if Lilith ever were a part of the Eden story in Genesis, she must have been excised not because she was a [independent] woman, but because her story doesn't flow with the moral narrative that Genesis tells (and all of Genesis is really just a set-up for Abraham, which is when the OT gets interesting).
So if Lilith ever were a part of the Eden story in Genesis, she must have been excised not because she was a woman, but because her story doesn't flow with the moral narrative that Genesis tells (and all of Genesis is really just a set-up for Abraham, which is when the OT gets interesting).
I am horribly out of my depth here as the one time I read Genesis, I didn't even really speak English, and I'm by no means a theologian or Bible historian. As you say, though, the figure of Lilith is a lot older than when she first is brought together with Adam, and apparently one thing that happened with an appreciable frequency is that, since there are holes in the creation myth (like if Adam and Eve were the first humans, then did their children commit incest to be able to breed or what?), people would sometimes make up things to patch the stories up to make them more logical. And the Wiki article mentions how there seems to be two female creation events, and I guess it's possible that Lilith was brought in to try to patch that up. Also, the wiki article talks about Adam's 130 day long separation from Eve, when apparently Lilith raped/seduced him, which honestly just sounds like ancient slash fiction to me.
IreneDAdler on
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
So if Lilith ever were a part of the Eden story in Genesis, she must have been excised not because she was a woman, but because her story doesn't flow with the moral narrative that Genesis tells (and all of Genesis is really just a set-up for Abraham, which is when the OT gets interesting).
I am horribly out of my depth here as the one time I read Genesis, I didn't even really speak English, and I'm by no means a theologian or Bible historian. As you say, though, the figure of Lilith is a lot older than when she first is brought together with Adam, and apparently one thing that happened with an appreciable frequency is that, since there are holes in the creation myth (like if Adam and Eve were the first humans, then did their children commit incest to be able to breed or what?), people would sometimes make up things to patch the stories up to make them more logical. And the Wiki article mentions how there seems to be two female creation events, and I guess it's possible that Lilith was brought in to try to patch that up. Also, the wiki article talks about Adam's 130 day long separation from Eve, when apparently Lilith raped/seduced him, which honestly just sounds like ancient slash fiction to me.
and I guess it's possible that Lilith was brought in to try to patch that up. Also, the wiki article talks about Adam's 130 day long separation from Eve, when apparently Lilith raped/seduced him, which honestly just sounds like ancient slash fiction to me.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found a help meet for him.
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept; and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof.
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
If this is at all accurate to what the text of Genesis was like back then, then people could have been like "Wait, why did he create a female twice?" and then someone else was like "uh... Lilith?" and then the other guys are like "Oh that makes sense."
I can see how Lilith's story fills in a narrative gap, and even puts the apparent discrepancy into context, it is interesting. I just think the story doesn't fit in other ways. It's quite a mystery though.
Why is [chat] a religious thread now? Let's get back on topic here.
So. I hear cocks go well in butts. Discuss?
Let's find out.
--
Wasn't there supposed to be a woman between Lilith and Eve in some versions? A woman made out of thin air, scaring the crap out of Adam?
Pretty sure it was Narcolepsia. Adam had sleep sex with her, and God was hardly amused.
Wow, I'd never heard that before. Adam is a ho.
Yeah, it turns out there was a third, lesser-known, semi-forbidden tree. Adam fed fruit from it to Narcolepsia, and it knocked her right out. Adam was a date-rapist.
It's more that Adam was a demanding, selfish little bitch.
Whaaa, she wants to be on top, whaaa, that girl is scary, whaa, look what Eve made me do. :P
You know, I hadn't thought about it this way before, but if God is supposed to be infallible, then why did he make humans that couldn't even follow simple directions?
IreneDAdler on
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
You know, I hadn't thought about it this way before, but if God is supposed to be infallible, then why did he make humans that couldn't even follow simple directions?
Yeah, it turns out there was a third, lesser-known, semi-forbidden tree. Adam fed fruit from it to Narcolepsia, and it knocked her right out. Adam was a date-rapist.
... Now you're just fucking with me, aren't you? I kinda thought Narcolepsia was kind of an odd Biblical name, but you never know with those crazy monotheists...
It's more that Adam was a demanding, selfish little bitch.
Whaaa, she wants to be on top, whaaa, that girl is scary, whaa, look what Eve made me do. :P
You know, I hadn't thought about it this way before, but if God is supposed to be infallible, then why did he make humans that couldn't even follow simple directions?
Is that a dig on men's inability to ask for directions? Because if Eve hadn't been congenitally unable to shut up for two God damn minutes, I'm pretty sure Adam could have navigated back to Eden using landmarks.
Yeah, it turns out there was a third, lesser-known, semi-forbidden tree. Adam fed fruit from it to Narcolepsia, and it knocked her right out. Adam was a date-rapist.
... Now you're just fucking with me, aren't you? I kinda thought Narcolepsia was kind of an odd Biblical name, but you never know with those crazy monotheists...
You know, I hadn't thought about it this way before, but if God is supposed to be infallible, then why did he make humans that couldn't even follow simple directions?
Preachers always say it was because they had Free Will. :P
Apparently Free Will makes you a dick, and if you aren't the most powerful dick, then it is a sin.
See: Book of Job for context.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
edited May 2008
Oop, library's closing. I need to grab a movie. Later, all.
Is that a dig on men's inability to ask for directions? Because if Eve hadn't been congenitally unable to shut up for two God damn minutes, I'm pretty sure Adam could have navigated back to Eden using landmarks.
:roll: :P
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TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
Is that a dig on men's inability to ask for directions? Because if Eve hadn't been congenitally unable to shut up for two God damn minutes, I'm pretty sure Adam could have navigated back to Eden using landmarks.
:roll: :P
I'm totally cribbing from Letters From the Earth, which everyone should totally read. I'm pretty sure you can even find it online free since it's Twain, and therefore old and not copyrighted. But the chapter in which Eden is discussed is painfully funny, painful as in "sides hurting from laughter".
What you mean is that Democrats support states' rights so that they can allow gay marriage and legalize relatively harmless recreational substances in their states, whereas Republicans support states' rights so that they can dictate to women what they're going to do with their bodies, and make sure the darkies don't get too uppity.
Yes, I can see how that's exactly the same thing. This is totally a valid comparison.
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It's interesting, and it's certainly what I asked for. I remain skeptical that it could have been part of Genesis at any point though, as it just doesn't fit the narrative, and confuses the message of the Eden story (personal responsibility: ie God punished Adam and Eve not because of what they did, but because Adam blamed Eve, and Eve blamed the serpent, and neither took responsibility for actions that were clearly their own). Genesis then segues neatly into Cain and Abel ("Am I my brothers keeper?" ie: denial of moral responsibility), the story of Noah, who though obedient, does nothing beyond what he is asked (ie: he saves only himself and his family, God did not tell Noah not to save other people, he left it to Noah to exercise collective responsibility, and Noah failed horribly, indeed, the root of the name "Noah" in Hebrew is the same as restful re: lazy). Anyway, I totally digress, and am probably horribly paraphrasing Rabbi Sacks, but my point was merely that if that story of Lilith has a lesson, it would be about marital responsibility, and there's simply no way that that lesson would be placed before the lessons in the stories of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Noah and the flood etc.
So if Lilith ever were a part of the Eden story in Genesis, she must have been excised not because she was a [independent] woman, but because her story doesn't flow with the moral narrative that Genesis tells (and all of Genesis is really just a set-up for Abraham, which is when the OT gets interesting).
I am horribly out of my depth here as the one time I read Genesis, I didn't even really speak English, and I'm by no means a theologian or Bible historian. As you say, though, the figure of Lilith is a lot older than when she first is brought together with Adam, and apparently one thing that happened with an appreciable frequency is that, since there are holes in the creation myth (like if Adam and Eve were the first humans, then did their children commit incest to be able to breed or what?), people would sometimes make up things to patch the stories up to make them more logical. And the Wiki article mentions how there seems to be two female creation events, and I guess it's possible that Lilith was brought in to try to patch that up. Also, the wiki article talks about Adam's 130 day long separation from Eve, when apparently Lilith raped/seduced him, which honestly just sounds like ancient slash fiction to me.
I'm just in a blarg kind of mood.
Wait'll you hear what she did to Wolverine.
And then
If this is at all accurate to what the text of Genesis was like back then, then people could have been like "Wait, why did he create a female twice?" and then someone else was like "uh... Lilith?" and then the other guys are like "Oh that makes sense."
So. I hear cocks go well in butts. Discuss?
Let's find out.
--
Wasn't there supposed to be a woman between Lilith and Eve in some versions? A woman made out of thin air, scaring the crap out of Adam?
We're talking about the Bible as mythology, not as religion. You fail :P
We are so not debating religion. We were just talking about the Lilith figure and how she originiated, and may or may not fit into Genesis.
And there's rape and demon sex involved, so it's totally [chat] appropriate!
-edit-
And I was totally beat'ed by Irene. :P
Pretty sure it was Narcolepsia. Adam had sleep sex with her, and God was hardly amused.
Wow, I'd never heard that before. Adam is a ho.
Butts are for the desperate. Now mouths, that's where the real action is at.
Perhaps, but at least that time it wasn't incestual.
It's more that Adam was a demanding, selfish little bitch.
Whaaa, she wants to be on top, whaaa, that girl is scary, whaa, look what Eve made me do. :P
Yeah, it turns out there was a third, lesser-known, semi-forbidden tree. Adam fed fruit from it to Narcolepsia, and it knocked her right out. Adam was a date-rapist.
God needed better beta-testers.
Ewwwwwww.
I draw the line at using it as a candy bowl.
... Now you're just fucking with me, aren't you? I kinda thought Narcolepsia was kind of an odd Biblical name, but you never know with those crazy monotheists...
Is that a dig on men's inability to ask for directions? Because if Eve hadn't been congenitally unable to shut up for two God damn minutes, I'm pretty sure Adam could have navigated back to Eden using landmarks.
Yes, I am fucking with you.
Preachers always say it was because they had Free Will. :P
Apparently Free Will makes you a dick, and if you aren't the most powerful dick, then it is a sin.
See: Book of Job for context.
I'm with Richy here. Et tu, Cockus Dickus?
Greeks you say.
:roll: :P
I'm totally cribbing from Letters From the Earth, which everyone should totally read. I'm pretty sure you can even find it online free since it's Twain, and therefore old and not copyrighted. But the chapter in which Eden is discussed is painfully funny, painful as in "sides hurting from laughter".
--
So, everyone's heard of those quakes in China, right?
And the bombs in India?
This is like the shittiest start to summer in years.
Like maybe two.
Today, I won my freedom!
A certain bitch can fucking suck it. She didn't successfully destroy me, no matter how much she tried. SUCKS TO BE HER.
(emphasis mine)