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The Man Bible

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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    If you're already doing a group thing or it fits into the conversation it's one thing. But then I don't drink anyways so maybe being lightly buzzed changes the rules. :P

    Incenjucar on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    If you're already doing a group thing or it fits into the conversation it's one thing. But then I don't drink anyways so maybe being lightly buzzed changes the rules. :P

    I have enough confidence in the sorts of girls I end up buying drinks for to believe that they know how drunk they want to get, and as I said when I buy strangers drinks they always come back. It's like cigarettes.

    Edit: Though this is in large part because I'm not trying to sleep with any drunk girls, and I think this lack of intention is pretty apparent.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    People come back to me because I'm willing to dance and I have amusing quips.

    Incenjucar on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    I don't go to clubs. Anyone who goes to a bar hoping to dance needs to go to a club.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Oh an actual -bar-.

    Never been to one of those, as it would not make any sense.

    Just clubs with like four bars in them.

    Incenjucar on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Oh an actual -bar-.

    Never been to one of those, as it would not make any sense.

    Just clubs with like four bars in them.

    And a Guinness is $8.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    And a Guinness is $8.

    I wouldn't know. :P

    Incenjucar on
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    ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Well, then why do you call it "pickup culture"?

    What should we call it instead? Is there something about the word "pick-up" that is opposed to what I described?
    Why do you need to take classes from other guys? Why do you post on sites like SeattleLair talking about HB9's and what happens when another guy tries to move in on your "set" while you're in the bathroom? (Oh it's shocking I know, but yes I have browsed that site and others in order to try to understand why this PUA thing exists).

    I actually used to be a member of SeattleLair, and the reason I quit was exactly what you describe here: referring to groups as "sets", categorizing girls on a scale (HB8, HB9, etc.), and generally treating human beings as objects. It's funny you bring it up, because the kind of shit people talk about in SeattleLair epitomizes everything that is wrong with those specific subsections of the PU culture that I was talking about: manipulation, objectification, treating other people as lesser beings, etc.
    Honestly, self-improvement which leads to confidence which leads to better interactions with strangers and people of the other sex - there's nothing wrong with that! Why do you need to entangle seduction and getting laid with that self-improvement?

    Honestly - and I'm sorry if my candor surprises you - it is more exciting when you think of those things within the context of sexuality.

    Personally speaking, contrary to what VC claimed, I never saw self-improvement as a means to getting laid. That is why I eventually quit. But some people do, and there's nothing wrong with it as long as they do it with honorable and genuine intentions, without resorting to ethically questionable methods or mindsets.

    ege02 on
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    MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    I absolutely have a problem with self-improvement as a means to getting laid. Self-improvement should not be predicated on getting women to sleep with you. That's not really self-improvement, that's improving your ability to get women to sleep with you.

    Medopine on
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Podly: What's your "culture's" stance on divulging intention?

    At what point do you inform someone that you just want to pick them up, and that your present state is based on your desire to obtain such rather than being a persistent quality of your person that can be expected to persist after you have finished picking up?

    Incenjucar on
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    ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    I absolutely have a problem with self-improvement as a means to getting laid. Self-improvement should not be predicated on getting women to sleep with you. That's not really self-improvement, that's improving your ability to get women to sleep with you.

    Hence, self-improvement.

    Unless there's a particular reason why "improving your ability to do something" should not count as self-improvement?

    ege02 on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    I absolutely have a problem with self-improvement as a means to getting laid. Self-improvement should not be predicated on getting women to sleep with you. That's not really self-improvement, that's improving your ability to get women to sleep with you.

    Bingbingbing.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Medopine wrote: »
    I absolutely have a problem with self-improvement as a means to getting laid. Self-improvement should not be predicated on getting women to sleep with you. That's not really self-improvement, that's improving your ability to get women to sleep with you.

    Bingbingbing.

    Perhaps you can answer the question I posed.

    ege02 on
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    ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    What you guys seem to be saying is that, if I am learning a language for the sake of learning a language, it is acceptable, but if I am learning a language so that I can one day go live in that country, then it is not really learning a language but rather improving my ability to go live in that country.

    ege02 on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    ege02 wrote: »
    Medopine wrote: »
    I absolutely have a problem with self-improvement as a means to getting laid. Self-improvement should not be predicated on getting women to sleep with you. That's not really self-improvement, that's improving your ability to get women to sleep with you.

    Bingbingbing.

    Perhaps you can answer the question I posed.

    You didn't pose it to me, clearly, because I don't ask questions I already know the answer to and as such am not the one who asked you why you call it "pick-up culture".

    ViolentChemistry on
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    ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    ege02 wrote: »
    Medopine wrote: »
    I absolutely have a problem with self-improvement as a means to getting laid. Self-improvement should not be predicated on getting women to sleep with you. That's not really self-improvement, that's improving your ability to get women to sleep with you.

    Bingbingbing.

    Perhaps you can answer the question I posed.

    You didn't pose it to me, clearly, because I don't ask questions I already know the answer to and as such am not the one who asked you why you call it "pick-up culture".

    I didn't pose it to you, yes, but since you seem to be in such a stark agreement with Medopine - bingbingbing lol - I was thinking perhaps you can answer the question.

    ege02 on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    I'm not interested in playing weasel-words with you. The description you gave fits "con-artist" just as well as "pickup-artist". It's nauseating to see someone claim they're not trying to manipulate anyone, they're just trying to "be" who they need to be to get what they want from their mark.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Really when the goal of 'improving yourself' is for others to like you, you're not really making much self-improvement.

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
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    ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    I'm not interested in playing weasel-words with you.

    The fact that you are not interested in actually discussing a topic came as a big surprise.

    Not.
    The description you gave fits "con-artist" just as well as "pickup-artist". It's nauseating to see someone claim they're not trying to manipulate anyone, they're just trying to "be" who they need to be to get what they want from their mark.

    Difference: the kinds of pick-up artists I am talking about are honest and forthcoming about their intentions.

    It's like telling someone "hey, I am going to con you" and them agreeing to be conned (i.e. to get "picked up" and having a good time). At that point it is no longer conning, is it?

    ege02 on
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    ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Kagera wrote: »
    Really when the goal of 'improving yourself' is for others to like you, you're not really making much self-improvement.

    Why not?

    Again, you people are saying these things - probably because they sound oh-so-wise - but seem to be unable to explain your reasoning.

    If I am taking public speaking lessons so I can give better presentations at work, does this mean I am actually not improving myself? If I am learning how to dress up for a professional business meeting so my clients take me more seriously, does it not count as improving myself?

    Why does using something as a means to an end completely invalidates that thing in and of itself? Why? Answer this question.

    ege02 on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    ege02 wrote: »
    I'm not interested in playing weasel-words with you.

    The fact that you are not interested in actually discussing a topic came as a big surprise.

    Not.

    What? You're not trying to actually discuss jack shit. That's the problem, chief. You're trying to find a way to say you manipulate women into sex without using the phrase "manipulate into sex" and by heading it up with a claim that you're not trying to manipulate women into sex. It's like "I'm not saying blue is the best color, it's just that there aren't any colors better than those that fall between green and indigo, exclusive, on a rainbow.". It is obnoxious.
    ege02 wrote: »
    Difference: the kinds of pick-up artists I am talking about are honest and forthcoming about their intentions.

    It's like telling someone "hey, I am going to con you" and them agreeing to be conned (i.e. to get "picked up" and having a good time). At that point it is no longer conning, is it?

    That depends how long you go on about how you're not trying to con them to try to con them.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    ege02, I have an honest question. Would the 'type' of artists you are talking about go up to a girl at the end of an encounter (I don't know how else to put it) and tell them what they did? Would it ever come up in conversation at all? I don't think it would because part of the 'trick' or 'technique' is that the other person does not know it is being used.

    Also I'm not sure how much of it is 'agreeing to get picked up' or the just dude being there and having the balls to actually talk instead of simper in the background.

    Protip: Ladies can use you too.

    Malkor on
    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
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    ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    What? You're not trying to actually discuss jack shit. That's the problem, chief. You're trying to find a way to say you manipulate women into sex without using the phrase "manipulate into sex" and by heading it up with a claim that you're not trying to manipulate women into sex. It's like "I'm not saying blue is the best color, it's just that there aren't any colors better than those that fall between green and indigo, exclusive, on a rainbow.". It is obnoxious.

    It is not manipulation if you are honest and genuine and forthcoming from the start. There is no lying or cheating or faking involved.

    Try to keep up, chief.

    If I go to a girl and tell her outright "hey, I really like how smart and funny you are and I find you really attractive," and I mean every word, then on our first date I tell her "look, before this goes any further I have to say this: my life is really hectic and I don't have any room for a relationship" and I mean every word, and she still ends up sleeping with me, and this qualifies me as a pick-up artist, what the fuck is wrong with it?

    Am I an abhorrent being because I was brutally honest from the beginning? I don't think I am. Did I con her into having sex with me? No, I didn't. Does it make me a douche because I actually had the balls to say to her face what I really thought about her and what I was and was not looking for, rather than simpering in the background and thinking of rejection-safe methods of asking her out? I don't think it does.

    So what is the problem here VC? On what other basis are you going to judge me now?

    The kind of pick-up artists you are talking about, the manipulative assholes who see every moving body as a fuckable object rated on a scale of 1 to 10 and view other guys as below them, the sleazy pricks whose entire lives revolve around getting laid... yeah, I agree with every assessment you and Medopine made about those. But I'm sorry that, believe it or not, I'm not one of them.

    And this is what I am trying to say here: you are passing judgments on an entire group of people, an entire culture, without acknowledging that it consists of a lot of different kinds of people and mindsets.

    But hey, generalizations are fun and empowering, aren't they?

    ege02 on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    I don't know whether you're actually this deluded or just plan to camp the thread until I get bored but I've already answered your question, I've already told you I'm not interested in playing weasel-words and that's all you're giving instead of discussion, and it is not fun. Go ahead and pretend you're an okay guy.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Ege:

    1) You should tell her this when you make the date not after she's already shown up for it. Otherwise she has planned her evening around potentially false assumptions and will feel pressure to follow through with standard date procedure.

    2) The reason self-improvement for a goal is disingenuous is because people tend to assume you self-improve strictly to self-improve unless informed otherwise. While a foolish assumption, it's how so many people end up with fatass losers who had every indication of being active, ambitious, wordly, and health-minded people when they were dating but no it turns out they were quoting Shakespeare to pick up chicks not because of a genuine lifelong love of the arts which could be depended on as a constant in the relationship.

    Incenjucar on
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    ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I'm similarly struggling to see why improving one's ability to have women want to sleep with you (substitute "be my girlfriend" here if you need) is a bad thing. It's what numerous threads in H/A are predicated on.

    Æthelred on
    pokes: 1505 8032 8399
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    AdrienAdrien Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Medopine wrote: »
    What's so interesting about that?

    It's called...having sex?

    Seriously.

    This like finding playing tennis with someone in exchange for playing tennis "interesting."

    It's a mutual fun-time happy good time shared activity. That's the point.

    Emphasis here is on "only." The point is that there's no social stigma about paying someone to play tennis with you.

    Adrien on
    tmkm.jpg
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    ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    I'm similarly struggling to see why improving one's ability to get women to sleep with you (substitute "be my girlfriend" here if you need) is a bad thing. It's what numerous threads in H/A are predicated on.

    Because normal people are born with a natural ability to attract the opposite sex. If they are not, they are losers, and how dare they try to improve themselves rather than sitting down and accepting their lot in life and judging other people on Internet forums who do try?

    ege02 on
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Adrien wrote: »
    Emphasis here is on "only." The point is that there's no social stigma about paying someone to play tennis with you.

    That's because it's fairly hard to knock someone up or give them Herpes with a tennis racket, and selling your tennis skills has not been outlawed.

    --

    Ege: Who the fuck has to "self-improve" to attract people? Plenty of ugly, stupid, boorish people who don't hide these traits of theirs get hella laid.

    The only "improvement" anyone ever needs is enough confidence to ask someone out until they find someone who is interested in their actual real selves without special limited time only garnishment.

    Incenjucar on
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    ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Adrien wrote: »
    Emphasis here is on "only." The point is that there's no social stigma about paying someone to play tennis with you.

    That's because it's fairly hard to knock someone up or give them Herpes with a tennis racket, and selling your tennis skills has not been outlawed.

    No, the social stigma surrounding selling sex doesn't have that much to do with disease control.
    Incenjucar wrote:
    Ege: Who the fuck has to "self-improve" to attract people? Plenty of ugly, stupid, boorish people who don't hide these traits of theirs get hella laid.

    I trust this will be your next advice to a help seeker in H/A. Don't tell them to buy some nice clothes and learn how to hold a conversation; just tell them stupid people occasionally find someone willing to sleep with them.

    Æthelred on
    pokes: 1505 8032 8399
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Æthelred wrote: »
    No, the social stigma surrounding selling sex doesn't have that much to do with disease control.

    It's largely a religious/cultural thing which may or may not have stemmed from that.

    Kind of like the whole shellfish thing.

    Regardless, selling sex is taboo in our culture, thus lesser forms of it are also sometimes taboo.

    --

    Aeth: I would never advise someone to trick some poor fucker into dating them under false pretenses. You don't have a right to get you some.

    If your person is so shitty as to need all that work to make it worth dating you need to fix yourself for yourself before you ever even consider getting someone else involved in your life.

    Incenjucar on
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    ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    No, the social stigma surrounding selling sex doesn't have that much to do with disease control.

    It's largely a religious/cultural thing which may or may not have stemmed from that.

    The social significance of sex really doesn't come from sexually-transmitted diseases.

    Æthelred on
    pokes: 1505 8032 8399
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    AdrienAdrien Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Adrien wrote: »
    Emphasis here is on "only." The point is that there's no social stigma about paying someone to play tennis with you.

    That's because it's fairly hard to knock someone up or give them Herpes with a tennis racket, and selling your tennis skills has not been outlawed.

    I'd say it's because it's normal to exchange goods for services.

    Adrien on
    tmkm.jpg
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    ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Aeth: I would never advise someone to trick some poor fucker into dating them under false pretenses. You don't have a right to get you some.

    Learning how to present yourself is false pretenses? Is understanding you need to wear more than black t-shirts abandoning your true self?

    Æthelred on
    pokes: 1505 8032 8399
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Adrien wrote: »
    I'd say it's because it's normal to exchange goods for services.

    What can I say, love is a black market.

    --

    Aeth: Who the hell can't get a date based on the hue of their t-shirt?

    Incenjucar on
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    ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Aeth: I would never advise someone to trick some poor fucker into dating them under false pretenses. You don't have a right to get you some.

    If your person is so shitty as to need all that work to make it worth dating you need to fix yourself for yourself before you ever even consider getting someone else involved in your life.

    Are you actually reading this thread, and my posts specifically? Because you are still back in page 2 it sounds like, with regards to "tricking" and "false pretenses." How is it that you are still arguing against those when I have specifically stated, more than once, that I advocate and practice the exact opposite?

    ege02 on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    ege02 wrote: »
    Because normal people are born with a natural ability to attract the opposite sex. If they are not, they are losers, and how dare they try to improve themselves rather than sitting down and accepting their lot in life and judging other people on Internet forums who do try?

    Nope. Pretending to be a victim doesn't make it so.
    I'm similarly struggling to see why improving one's ability to get women to sleep with you (substitute "be my girlfriend" here if you need) is a bad thing. It's what numerous threads in H/A are predicated on.

    Are you really confused as to the difference between learning how not to shoot yourself in the foot and learning how to con people into taking off their pants?

    ViolentChemistry on
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    ege02 wrote: »
    How is it that you are still arguing against those when I have specifically stated, more than once, that I advocate and practice the exact opposite?

    I've made this rather clear, but I'll try again:

    Behavior change for the sake of a specific goal tends to be a temporary behavior change. However, people tend to assume that present behavior is indicative of consistent behavior. This is why many people tend not to trust goal-oriented behavior changes. Because they take advantage of that assumption. It's not an outright lie, but it is a deceptive practice.

    It's the difference between being and acting.

    Incenjucar on
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    ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Æthelred wrote: »
    I'm similarly struggling to see why improving one's ability to get women to sleep with you (substitute "be my girlfriend" here if you need) is a bad thing. It's what numerous threads in H/A are predicated on.

    Are you really confused as to the difference between learning how not to shoot yourself in the foot and learning how to con people into taking off their pants?

    Good, so you at least admit there's a scale. Where do you place something like "smile and nod when people are talking" on that scale? Is it a horrible thing to do if it's not natural to you? What methods of attracting women are verboten? Is learning to dance specifically to impress people something you should be ashamed of? Which tips on how to hold a conversation are essential social skills and which are manipulation?

    Æthelred on
    pokes: 1505 8032 8399
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    ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    ege02 wrote: »
    Because normal people are born with a natural ability to attract the opposite sex. If they are not, they are losers, and how dare they try to improve themselves rather than sitting down and accepting their lot in life and judging other people on Internet forums who do try?

    Nope. Pretending to be a victim doesn't make it so.

    The only thing I am a victim of is your incessant trolling and personal attacks. :P

    Because let's face it: you are not disagreeing with me on the basis of my arguments, almost never anyway. I wrote all that in the last page, and instead of responding to it, you called me dillusional and stated your unwillingness to play word games. Hell man, if you want to be that way go ahead. All I know is that you are disagreeing with me because you believe me to be a not-okay person.

    Admit to this and we will go our separate ways.

    ege02 on
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