you have to time holy shield because of the seam but if you have imp shield block you just need some expertise to reduce parrys
i think paladin tanking is the most boring of the 3 tankers right now
not that it's a bad thing
but warrior tanking feels a lot more satisfying when everything works right
Little Jim on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
victim syndrome
for a long time paladins were the underdog and so those that were good and were tanking developed something of a hero complex
and even now, a paladin has to be more skilled than a warrior to convince some people he is even equal to the warrior, so to some degree the hero complex still persists.
half of the skill of a paladin tank is finding a good healer who can keep you up through anything. too often, people recognise the skill of the tank in tanking an instance successfully, and its only the tank himself who appreciates the healer
many times in Shattered Halls or other such huge-pull situations we've accidentally gathered two or more pulls, and although I have to be alert to pick them up in time, the real credit goes to the healer for keeping me up through all of them
picking up multiple mobs is the difficult part, but once they're on me, they're on me and it doesnt matter whether I have two mobs on me or ten.
i've tanked plenty of instances with no CC on my warrior
spell reflect and improved thunderclap with defiance is just fine
i have enough taunts in pugs to either take things off them if they aren't following a kill order, or they aren't doing enough dps to pull off me
True, this works, and thoroughly works, except that it relies on the warrior to be competent. A whole lot of warrior tanks I've played with haven't yet learned this competence, and can't function properly without CC. Those warriors that do realize that a properly specced Thunderclap is about on par with Consecration (as long as there aren't more than 4 targets) make runs fun and smooth.
for a long time paladins were the underdog and so those that were good and were tanking developed something of a hero complex
and even now, a paladin has to be more skilled than a warrior to convince some people he is even equal to the warrior, so to some degree the hero complex still persists.
Yeah, this too. Now working on the PvE DPS paladin underdog angle, because my tanking paladin got too commonplace.
True, this works, and thoroughly works, except that it relies on the warrior to be competent. A whole lot of warrior tanks I've played with haven't yet learned this competence, and can't function properly without CC. Those warriors that do realize that a properly specced Thunderclap is about on par with Consecration (as long as there aren't more than 4 targets) make runs fun and smooth.
oh for sure
admittedly finding competent warrior tanks is something of a miracle
and then a rogue looked and me and was like "yo, no more of that" and i resigned myself to holy shocking the resto druids
Little Jim on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
i did some pvp on my priest, had a mage trying to burn down my rogue friend. he was tough, the rogue was having trouble burning him down, but the mage went completely out of mana trying to kill him while I was sitting there spamming greater heals on the rogue
not once did turn his attention to me, to sheep me, counterspell me, or do anything to try to stop me healing
if its a 5man, try to get a paladin, just because they make it easier
look i know you like paladins
but this just isn't the case
nor do paladins have to struggle against the man (tm) to tank things
geeze!
you can't argue against the fact that it makes it easier to form a group when all you need is 3 random DPS of any class, instead of 3 random DPS but make sure you bring maybe 1 CC.
once you actually get in the instance, paladins dont make it any easier, but using one gives a) more freedom to select the group and b) a margin of error against PuG idiots, because they don't really need to follow a kill order
You pretty much have to use 3 Warlocks, or DPS Warriors/Ret Paladins to not have ANY CC.
The Muffin Man on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
don't forget that the definition of CC is not just having a class that can CC but also a PLAYER that can CC
i'm guessing he was 21/0/30 like the rest of us back then
40/0/11. My spec's preserved and unchanged from that last week of Naxx/AQ40/BWL raiding. Although I do have Bloodcaller and Red Dragonscale Protector when healing, instead of that Hammer of Ji'zhi.
don't forget that the definition of CC is not just having a class that can CC but also a PLAYER that can CC
the two can sometimes be very different
No kidding.
Which is horrible, and those players immediately get the boot from my groups once I figure it out. Because I can CC while healing. And I know from experience that healing requires about twice the concentration of DPSing, and also requires focusing on something that's not the field of play, unlike a DPSer.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
What's been missed is that I want a pally in the group for salv. It makes a HUGE difference in joy of playing on my warlock if I have a pally buff or not. Yes, I can manage agro on my own -- it involves "SB -- go order pizza -- SB -- go take a shit -- SB -- look for something on TV -- etc" Pally buffs mean I can actually SB meaningfully.
And warlocks are viable CC. Just because it takes more skill/focus to properly 'yo-yo' using fear or seduce doesn't mean we're not cc. I've met a lot of hunters that suck at cc worse than a warlock.
I am still stuck on Windrunner damn blizzard not doing my transfer because it was "interesting"
But I think it's Emerald Dream, Dath'Remar, Cho'gall, Senjin, and so on
Brainleech on
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TavIrish Minister for DefenceRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
Cho'gall has the SE++ guild, which is apparently quite strong.
Yeah, this too. Now working on the PvE DPS paladin underdog angle, because my tanking paladin got too commonplace.
Yeah, this. When I picked up my paladin again a couple months ago, it was after she'd been sitting at 26ish for weeks/months and I never felt like playing her, until I saw one of those "lol kill 100 supplicants at once" videos and someone said you could do that to level too and I wanted to try. It was fun and I realized I actually liked tanking on her as opposed to my druid so I kept leveling. This was at a time that a total of ONE person in my guild was ever willing to tank heroics and Karazhan for the rest of us. So I figured, y'know, it'd be cool if I could level her up and tank things too.
But then of course right before I hit 70, we invited an honorary/social member whose main was a warlock but she mostly just plays her prot paladin, and she already had all her badge gear, so she started tanking heroics and Kara for everyone, and now like two weeks after I managed to get geared enough to tank heroics, our fucking WARRIOR MAIN TANK has gotten her prot paladin to 70 and keeps saying "Soon I can tank heroics for you guys!" Yeah where the fuck were you for the past eight months with that geared-out warrior? Oh that's right you were refusing to tank heroics and Kara and ZA when people asked.
i'm guessing he was 21/0/30 like the rest of us back then
40/0/11. My spec's preserved and unchanged from that last week of Naxx/AQ40/BWL raiding. Although I do have Bloodcaller and Red Dragonscale Protector when healing, instead of that Hammer of Ji'zhi.
were you one of the rare 31/20/0s back before 2.0?
I hope in Wotlk blizzard leaves in the shaman shield block and gives 1-2 more basic tank talents that an enhance shaman could optionally pick up. Maybe a toggle on spirit weapons so it can either be -30% threat or +30% threat.
They don't need to be great tanks, but being able to tank an instance about as well as an arms warrior would be nice. So many times I am sitting in LFG but all the instance groups are looking for tanks.
I just had an.. interesting group on my rogue.
Call goes out in LFG looking for a dps, so I get myself an invite etc. Two healers, paladin tank that had righteous fury off for the first half, a 69 arms warrior, and myself (Hemo rogue). Get the first boss down eventually, get to the second boss and get him down eventually.. The group refuses to use their beacons. So with 2 dps'ers we barely manage to get the portals down before the next one opens. Except for 17-18. We get the boss, and a wave of portal mobs. Woo. Hoo.
We wipe.
You seemed to have missed the point where Shamans only wear mail and there is exactly no mail with +def etc. An arms warrior in full tanking gear has about the same survivability in a 5man as a prot tank, but worse threat generation. A shaman would have terrible threat generation (exactly one spell with +threat) and terrible survivability. NOT. GONNA. HAPPEN.
Druids tank in leather because they gain 400% armor value in bearform. Also, with Deathknights as tanks, we should have no problems with tanking calsses around...now tanking classes specced for tanking and willing to do so...
Kartan on
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TavIrish Minister for DefenceRegistered Userregular
You seemed to have missed the point where Shamans only wear mail and there is exactly no mail with +def etc. An arms warrior in full tanking gear has about the same survivability in a 5man as a prot tank, but worse threat generation. A shaman would have terrible threat generation (exactly one spell with +threat) and terrible survivability. NOT. GONNA. HAPPEN.
don't forget that the definition of CC is not just having a class that can CC but also a PLAYER that can CC
the two can sometimes be very different
God, don't I know it...
*Scorch, Polymorph, Scorch, Polymorph, Scorch, Polymorph*
Look I know we're in SSC, but c'mon. Even I don't resheep until a mob dies and I am paranoid as all hell.
i'm guessing he was 21/0/30 like the rest of us back then
40/0/11. My spec's preserved and unchanged from that last week of Naxx/AQ40/BWL raiding. Although I do have Bloodcaller and Red Dragonscale Protector when healing, instead of that Hammer of Ji'zhi.
were you one of the rare 31/20/0s back before 2.0?
Not that I recall. I pretty much kept the same spec since 1.9. Before that I tried prot for a bit (basically solely to try out Reckoning) and ret back in the waaay early days, but I kept 40/0/11 throughout my entire pre-TBC raiding career.
Seriously, just because something isn't in now doesn't mean it never will. Remember when no one wanted shadow priests in raids, and druids and even paladins had to go out of their way to prove their could tank... and even then most guilds I knew about first-hand or read about were like "lol no".
Kartan maybe you missed the "I hope in Wotlk..." part.
nourish on
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TavIrish Minister for DefenceRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
Neat, the old guild downed Illidan. I'm happy for them, but there's very few people left in that guild that I actually know or care about. Still happy for them, though. That makes something like, 7 guilds on server that have cleared Illi with another one that I know of starting him tonight.
Seriously, just because something isn't in now doesn't mean it never will. Remember when no one wanted shadow priests in raids, and druids and even paladins had to go out of their way to prove their could tank... and even then most guilds I knew about first-hand or read about were like "lol no".
Kartan maybe you missed the "I hope in Wotlk..." part.
I did not miss it, I just take pleasure in destroying hope.
Granted, a lot of hybrids have been given a chance to really play in all of their roles. However, there is a distinct difference in giving a class with a tanking tree the ability to actually tank and giving a class that has rudimentary threat generation and survival skills (and really, the shaman has very rudimentary skills) the ability to tank. Also, they have gone a very different way in TBC with making shamans dual wield, they are setting the DK up as the new tanking class, why take attention away from it with making shamans able to tank? Not to mention that they would have to do a major overhaul of mail itemization (heal, hunter, elemental, enhancement dps plus enhancement tanking), spend most of the new spell "slots" on the tanking abilities, give shamans some sort of spiritual attunement...
This as moved way into the "Someone is wrong on the Internet" area, so I will stop here. Keep hoping, just don't be suprised if it does not happen.
Posts
you have to time holy shield because of the seam but if you have imp shield block you just need some expertise to reduce parrys
i think paladin tanking is the most boring of the 3 tankers right now
not that it's a bad thing
but warrior tanking feels a lot more satisfying when everything works right
for a long time paladins were the underdog and so those that were good and were tanking developed something of a hero complex
and even now, a paladin has to be more skilled than a warrior to convince some people he is even equal to the warrior, so to some degree the hero complex still persists.
half of the skill of a paladin tank is finding a good healer who can keep you up through anything. too often, people recognise the skill of the tank in tanking an instance successfully, and its only the tank himself who appreciates the healer
many times in Shattered Halls or other such huge-pull situations we've accidentally gathered two or more pulls, and although I have to be alert to pick them up in time, the real credit goes to the healer for keeping me up through all of them
picking up multiple mobs is the difficult part, but once they're on me, they're on me and it doesnt matter whether I have two mobs on me or ten.
True, this works, and thoroughly works, except that it relies on the warrior to be competent. A whole lot of warrior tanks I've played with haven't yet learned this competence, and can't function properly without CC. Those warriors that do realize that a properly specced Thunderclap is about on par with Consecration (as long as there aren't more than 4 targets) make runs fun and smooth.
Yeah, this too. Now working on the PvE DPS paladin underdog angle, because my tanking paladin got too commonplace.
oh for sure
admittedly finding competent warrior tanks is something of a miracle
yes for pre TBC tanking was sorta up and down for paladins
but it's kinda annoying when they're just fine now, you know
i'm looking forward to hearing about your holy paladin
oh ho ho
Wasn't Sabremau holy back before the expansion?
Ho.
Won't be doing that again. I'll stick with my priest for healing thanks.
i did an entire ab today (15 minutes long) where i wasn't attacked once
olol 416K healing done (beating the next closest healer by 350K)
not once did turn his attention to me, to sheep me, counterspell me, or do anything to try to stop me healing
You pretty much have to use 3 Warlocks, or DPS Warriors/Ret Paladins to not have ANY CC.
the two can sometimes be very different
No kidding.
Which is horrible, and those players immediately get the boot from my groups once I figure it out. Because I can CC while healing. And I know from experience that healing requires about twice the concentration of DPSing, and also requires focusing on something that's not the field of play, unlike a DPSer.
And warlocks are viable CC. Just because it takes more skill/focus to properly 'yo-yo' using fear or seduce doesn't mean we're not cc. I've met a lot of hunters that suck at cc worse than a warlock.
Any time tonight or tomorrow.
I'm um.. Just curious and not considering a transfer off at all.
But I think it's Emerald Dream, Dath'Remar, Cho'gall, Senjin, and so on
If you're interested in raiding, don't come to Ravenholdt. It's a black hole.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
Yeah, this. When I picked up my paladin again a couple months ago, it was after she'd been sitting at 26ish for weeks/months and I never felt like playing her, until I saw one of those "lol kill 100 supplicants at once" videos and someone said you could do that to level too and I wanted to try. It was fun and I realized I actually liked tanking on her as opposed to my druid so I kept leveling. This was at a time that a total of ONE person in my guild was ever willing to tank heroics and Karazhan for the rest of us. So I figured, y'know, it'd be cool if I could level her up and tank things too.
But then of course right before I hit 70, we invited an honorary/social member whose main was a warlock but she mostly just plays her prot paladin, and she already had all her badge gear, so she started tanking heroics and Kara for everyone, and now like two weeks after I managed to get geared enough to tank heroics, our fucking WARRIOR MAIN TANK has gotten her prot paladin to 70 and keeps saying "Soon I can tank heroics for you guys!" Yeah where the fuck were you for the past eight months with that geared-out warrior? Oh that's right you were refusing to tank heroics and Kara and ZA when people asked.
Perhaps this should have gone in the Hate thread.
were you one of the rare 31/20/0s back before 2.0?
They don't need to be great tanks, but being able to tank an instance about as well as an arms warrior would be nice. So many times I am sitting in LFG but all the instance groups are looking for tanks.
Call goes out in LFG looking for a dps, so I get myself an invite etc. Two healers, paladin tank that had righteous fury off for the first half, a 69 arms warrior, and myself (Hemo rogue). Get the first boss down eventually, get to the second boss and get him down eventually.. The group refuses to use their beacons. So with 2 dps'ers we barely manage to get the portals down before the next one opens. Except for 17-18. We get the boss, and a wave of portal mobs. Woo. Hoo.
We wipe.
Druids tank in leather because they gain 400% armor value in bearform. Also, with Deathknights as tanks, we should have no problems with tanking calsses around...now tanking classes specced for tanking and willing to do so...
This. This so hard.
God, don't I know it...
*Scorch, Polymorph, Scorch, Polymorph, Scorch, Polymorph*
Look I know we're in SSC, but c'mon. Even I don't resheep until a mob dies and I am paranoid as all hell.
4 tank classes and 1 extra that could work hard at being a viable off/5 man tank wouldn't be so horrible.
Don't get me wrong, I doubt they'll actually go that route, but that said, they've done weirder things in the past.
I seem to have missed the memo that told me I could make 40g off one mob.
Not that I recall. I pretty much kept the same spec since 1.9. Before that I tried prot for a bit (basically solely to try out Reckoning) and ret back in the waaay early days, but I kept 40/0/11 throughout my entire pre-TBC raiding career.
Kartan maybe you missed the "I hope in Wotlk..." part.
I did not miss it, I just take pleasure in destroying hope.
Granted, a lot of hybrids have been given a chance to really play in all of their roles. However, there is a distinct difference in giving a class with a tanking tree the ability to actually tank and giving a class that has rudimentary threat generation and survival skills (and really, the shaman has very rudimentary skills) the ability to tank. Also, they have gone a very different way in TBC with making shamans dual wield, they are setting the DK up as the new tanking class, why take attention away from it with making shamans able to tank? Not to mention that they would have to do a major overhaul of mail itemization (heal, hunter, elemental, enhancement dps plus enhancement tanking), spend most of the new spell "slots" on the tanking abilities, give shamans some sort of spiritual attunement...
This as moved way into the "Someone is wrong on the Internet" area, so I will stop here. Keep hoping, just don't be suprised if it does not happen.