To those who have killed her, how do you set up for lasers in phase 2? We started with the "gather at the stump" strategy, but it kept getting people killed. By the end we were just spreading out all over the area, with whoever got the beam running it west or east (and the next person went the opposite way.) Worked okay, though it made gathering up the skeletons sort of a pain.
My guild brought her down last night for the first time. The way we do lasers is to have a full north-south strip of land in the middle, starting at the tree stump and running all the way down to the fire, with the two root tips of the tree stump being the width. This is the "safe zone", which means if you get a laser, you DO NOT RUN THERE. That's where the prot pally stands and tanks the skeletons as they come in, and where people run if they get skeletons on them. When someone gets a laser, they run directly away from the safe zone -- if that would take them into the laser, they run south or north first, then circle around and head away from the safe zone. It seems to work pretty well.
Oh, and we do spread out heavily; no one stands in the safe zone until both laser targets have been selected. Not spreading out does get people killed by the laz0r beam, I've made a few mistakes there and so have several other raid comrades.
Ishtaar -- thanks a ton. We're quite a bit closer than I thought we'd be. Move to 2 healers and bump our dps slightly, and we should be getting at least 3 chests. Thanks man!
Oh, and the Gorefiend simulator is addictive as fuck.
Or if you out gear it you can just assume you'll avoid the vast majority of the gouges. I rarely get gouged on Moroes when I do it on my way over-geared warrior on Kara plow runs.
Stuff like this makes me realize how little I actually pay attention to the fight mechanics in Kara. We've outgeared it for so long now, even with shitty alts in the raid, it doesn't even occur to me to worry about this stuff. I guess I should pay attention if I want to tank it on my alt sometime though. :rotate:
2 healers really is the way to go. We often do the bear run with a resto shaman and a holy paladin (both in T6 for longevity and throughput), but I'm told there are better/easier combinations.
Of course, it also depends on your tanks and how hard your dps hit.
I love the timed run for that; while you can make up for a deficiency in one aspect with an abundance of another.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
For our early bear runs we used to do shaman and druid healers, and usually a shadow priest for the druid and the paladin tank, and for MC on the flamecasters (no mages). Getting a reliable druid off-tank was also key, I think, because even though his DPS wasn't amazing it adds more to the raid than a warrior or paladin OT could when they're not actively tanking anything.
- Try to keep the green beam out of the middle
- During clouds, ensure your group is ready to move at all times. Hug the line during cloud transitions.
- The green beam spawns BEHIND you. About 3-5 yards, to be exact. If you get the green beam, turn and start running, you're fucked. Ensure you're facing the direction you need to move if you have a chance at getting a beam.
Also, for your mages/anyone who channels spells -> There's a brief break before Felmyst lands that you can use to get off things like innervate/invisibility without getting interrupted by the periodic AOE. I'll generally pop everything as the dragon goes into the air the first time around and keep hitting him for another 20 seconds or so. Follow phase 2 with an invis and I don't have aggro problems the rest of the fight.
Our bear run uses elemental shaman/druid/holy paladin for healing; on AoE trash and on dragonhawk, the shaman heals, the druid OT scratches things, and the holy paladin tanks.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
There's a couple more runs that I can look for an re-upload later, I let the WWS account expire by accident one day and it purged a bunch of stuff. oopsie >.> I still have most of the log files saved. But yeah, we have I think 16 or 18 bears in guild now? Something like that.
The main thing about the bear run isn't which classes you bring; It's the synergy of the classes you bring and/or the roles they can fill:
We normally don't run with a Prot Pally, for any AoE (eagle gauntlet, dragonhawk adds) a mage and warlock handle it with frost nova/SoC, AoE taunt for emergencies.
You're pretty much chain pulling, so if you have a Pally or Shaman healing, they will probably need a shadow priest to keep their mana up. For us (Holy Priest/Resto Druid) last night, we almost never dipped below 90% mana (go spirit regen, woo! *\o/*) so a shadow priest is really just a luxury that lets us not have to pop mana pots unless someone fks up. (Holy disconnects Batman)
Like Riz said, don't forget Mind Control IS a viable form of CC, as is trap. It's more difficult without a mage, but totally possible.
Other random things:
~DON'T PANIC.
~Don't be the asshole on vent that's like, "go, go, we have to go, hurry up, go, go, go." The best way to encourage someone to make a mistake is to keep them under constant stress. Yes, time is important. Chain pulling is necessary. The most important thing by far is not screwing up. Just relax and stay alert.
~If you do make a mistake: Don't give up. We've still been successful with not one, but *two* wipes to incredibly stupid things.
~Speed at the beginning is just as important as speed at the end. Maintain a steady, quick pace so you don't have to feel rushed further in.
~Have a "spotter" for the stupid scouts coming from behind. Any of the summoned guys lose you ~1 min.
~The trash to the lynx boss seems to have the most potential for mistakes. If you have only one person capable of dispelling the Mind Control, having them equip a PvP trinket is a good idea. Dispels really need to be lightning fast, things can go very badly very quickly if they aren't.
~Try to keep a consistent group. Right now we're subbing people in to get bears, and instead of say, swapping a healer and dps in, we have an experienced healer respec or hop on an alt so we're only replacing one actual person at a time. When everyone knows exactly where to be, what to look for, etc it greatly lowers the chance of things going wrong.
Thanks. Right now we're really dps light. In our raid last night, only one (maybe 2) people could have been dps in the bear runs I looked at. It would be nice to happen, but I don't foresee it in the near future
Sorry for the Kara question, but I need to know how bad would it be if our main tank is someone that isn't heavy into prot, he's a warrior.
Also, is there anything I should know about the trash that's super annoying?
I've not been in a raid since BWL 2 summers ago, so I have no clue what to expect, espcially since most of the other people I'm going with have never done raids...
should I be nervous? We wreck 5mans when we run together, but we've been having problems with Heroics.
Prot is something of a crutch in the eyes of many, but having played (and played with) prot and non-prot warriors, there are significant advantages to prot, especially for learning.
It's not just about damage mitigation (though it helps; the less damage he takes, the easier a job the healers have, and the easier a job they have, the more time, effort and mana they can expend keeping everyone else up), but threat generation (which allows dps to go harder and earlier, which leads to shorter fights which are good all around) and rage generation/ability cost discounts (which ties into threat generation, but seriously, building threat with expensive sunders and without devistate/shield slam can suck ass).
If your crew is mostly rocking badge gear and has either an awesome off-tank or this guy's just off tanking for a badass prot paladin or something, it should be fine. If that's the main tank, I'd be very warry.
Bluntly, any good dps should at least risk pulling aggro off a tank now and then, that's why we have vanish, invis, soulshatter and feign. A non-prot tank is that much easier to pull off of in most cases (unless the tank is, like, T6 and the dps are in D3 still) and it leads to messier or longer / more frustrating fights.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I wouldn't like to do the second half of Kara as non-prot for survivability reasons, or any of it for threat reasons. You'd basicly be being crushed on every other hit on bosses, which on most of them you could get away with if your healers are ontop of things but the latter bosses would mangle you unless you overgear the place.
The trash in Kara is fine once you learn the pulls, the only thing I've seen new people do consistantly is body pull Curator, so I'd make sure people know whats up on those pulls.
I wouldn't like to do the second half of Kara as non-prot for survivability reasons, or any of it for threat reasons. You'd basicly be being crushed on every other hit on bosses, which on most of them you could get away with if your healers are ontop of things but the latter bosses would mangle you unless you overgear the place.
The trash in Kara is fine once you learn the pulls, the only thing I've seen new people do consistantly is body pull Curator, so I'd make sure people know whats up on those pulls.
They might take some crushes due to a lack of Imp Shield Block but the only boss that might be noticeable on would be Prince who generally crushes the hell out of warriors anyway. I wouldn't freak out at this point about having a non-prot warrior unless they are in all greens.
I wouldn't like to do the second half of Kara as non-prot for survivability reasons, or any of it for threat reasons. You'd basicly be being crushed on every other hit on bosses, which on most of them you could get away with if your healers are ontop of things but the latter bosses would mangle you unless you overgear the place.
The trash in Kara is fine once you learn the pulls, the only thing I've seen new people do consistantly is body pull Curator, so I'd make sure people know whats up on those pulls.
They might take some crushes due to a lack of Imp Shield Block but the only boss that might be noticeable on would be Prince who generally crushes the hell out of warriors anyway. I wouldn't freak out at this point about having a non-prot warrior unless they are in all greens.
He says they're having trouble just in heroics, so they're probably in mostly blues.
To be honest, you'll find out what the trash does fairly quickly; the horses charge ranged and fear, the others heal, etc....it doesn't take long to figure out what to do.
Most of the trash is undead, so can be shackled if you need the cc. Some are demons (so can be banished) on the way to Maiden. I could go on about others further in, but I think if it's the first time you and your mates are setting foot in there, if you get beyond opera you'd be doing extremely well first time.
I'll say as a general tip, for when you're starting to raid kara, is when you look at a room full of mobs, mark the ones you can see are wondering around between groups, so you can get cleaner pulls (i.e. you don't want a big chain pull, where you pull a group, it agro's the pat, and he in turn brings along the next group).
Only mobs that annoys me, are the Robots on the way to the curator, as they put a debuff on one person, and that one person starts doing arcane explosions. The idea is that that person moves away from everyone else, till the debuff is gone, but nearly all the time, it gets put on a person who doesn't pay attention.
However, first time in with a group of people who have not been in ther either, you'd be doing extremely well to get that far.
main tank in kara needs to have significant threat generation, the amount really depends on how geared the DPS is.
Deep prot has great talents for threat generation, shield slam, defiance, one handed spec, devastate, and lots of different rage reducing talents that almost make sunder/devastate free to use.
If you are main tanking kara as a warrior you need to be full prot. If you are offtanking kara you are only needed on a few fights; Attumen, Moroes, Two of three opera events and netherspite, and a little bit of trash in between, so with an uncrushable/uncrittable set of blues you can do it as non-prot.
edit: and what sort of problems are you having in heroics? is the tank losing aggro? Healer unable to keep the tank alive? DPS too slow so the healer goes OOM?
Also, is there anything I should know about the trash that's super annoying?
oh man kara has the most annoying trash ever, especially for new groups.
To Attumen:
Horses charge and fear, the humanoid-undead heal.
To moroes:
Some of the dancing packs are elite packs, totally skippable DO NOT PULL.
Cant remember the name but there are stationary mobs that hit really hard.
skeletons take away all your armor.
group of two mobs stun when they are at low health and hit really hard all of a sudden. disarm before the stun.
To maiden:
mobs throw up an aura that reduces damage done, try to cc as many as possible, shackle/banish
they also seduce and usually run to a healer
To opera:
Single and Dual skeleton guys that freeze the target with the most threat and go to the second highest, tell the DPS to slow down untill after the first iceblock. Shackle the second mob.
Pull the actor guys into the stair/hallway, pats come really close to that small room. Cleanse the sleep, especially if it is on one of your tanks.
To curator:
Robots put a debuff on a random person maing them explode all over people next to them he should run away.
blueberry mobs have a magic shield, if you have a free priest mana burn owns these mobs so hard.
the rest includes magic immune worms, more robots, the two little voidwalker looking adds with the big one explode when about to die, stun them when they get low health- also banishable. Annoying stealthing mobs at the top of every ramp - guaranteed to be face pulled at least once every run. Untauntable Ethereals that disarm the tank. aaand finally you come to shadowfiend looking guys that use gaping maw to really hurt anyone standing in front of them.
Also, if you make it past chess and are heading up the spiral stairs to Prince.... DON'T be curious and see what's in the side doorways on the way up the stairs. Just go straight to the top.
Also, things like Aran/Prince... make sure everyones inside the room before you pull the boss. The doors close and lock everyone on the otherside out. (seems like common sense... but you'd be surprised)
Also, if you make it past chess and are heading up the spiral stairs to Prince.... DON'T be curious and see what's in the side doorways on the way up the stairs. Just go straight to the top.
Also, things like Aran/Prince... make sure everyones inside the room before you pull the boss. The doors close and lock everyone on the otherside out. (seems like common sense... but you'd be surprised)
Another really cool thing to do on Aran is open the door, have someone aggro the boss when no one is ready, and then sit outside while everyone inside get's slaughtered.
We accidentally engaged aran the other day with two people standing outside. We wound up killing him in the end, but the two people outside fell victim to the water elementals.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Back in the day in BWL, one time some dumbass Hunter (It was always a hunter for some reason) accidentally hit autoshot and engaged vael as half the people were still zoning in.
I was one of those lucky ones who was still behind the gate when vael was engaged. I thought it would be funny to start dancing and laughing at those who were stuck inside and were futily running for the closed gate.
Apparently, Vael can breath fire through the gate...
Everyone on vent got a great laugh when my gloating and laughing turned into screams of agony, pain and death.
Also, if you make it past chess and are heading up the spiral stairs to Prince.... DON'T be curious and see what's in the side doorways on the way up the stairs. Just go straight to the top.
This, really this. I was the moron to go all "oh cool whats on this balcony" on the way up to Prince and wipe us.
Posts
My guild brought her down last night for the first time. The way we do lasers is to have a full north-south strip of land in the middle, starting at the tree stump and running all the way down to the fire, with the two root tips of the tree stump being the width. This is the "safe zone", which means if you get a laser, you DO NOT RUN THERE. That's where the prot pally stands and tanks the skeletons as they come in, and where people run if they get skeletons on them. When someone gets a laser, they run directly away from the safe zone -- if that would take them into the laser, they run south or north first, then circle around and head away from the safe zone. It seems to work pretty well.
Oh, and we do spread out heavily; no one stands in the safe zone until both laser targets have been selected. Not spreading out does get people killed by the laz0r beam, I've made a few mistakes there and so have several other raid comrades.
Stuff like this makes me realize how little I actually pay attention to the fight mechanics in Kara. We've outgeared it for so long now, even with shitty alts in the raid, it doesn't even occur to me to worry about this stuff. I guess I should pay attention if I want to tank it on my alt sometime though. :rotate:
Of course, it also depends on your tanks and how hard your dps hit.
I love the timed run for that; while you can make up for a deficiency in one aspect with an abundance of another.
For context, Terromar/Beromar was our pally tank for this:
http://docs.google.com/Presentation?id=dff386ds_8rbfzznrb
- Try to keep the green beam out of the middle
- During clouds, ensure your group is ready to move at all times. Hug the line during cloud transitions.
- The green beam spawns BEHIND you. About 3-5 yards, to be exact. If you get the green beam, turn and start running, you're fucked. Ensure you're facing the direction you need to move if you have a chance at getting a beam.
Also, for your mages/anyone who channels spells -> There's a brief break before Felmyst lands that you can use to get off things like innervate/invisibility without getting interrupted by the periodic AOE. I'll generally pop everything as the dragon goes into the air the first time around and keep hitting him for another 20 seconds or so. Follow phase 2 with an invis and I don't have aggro problems the rest of the fight.
Here's one from a different group setup (containing three healers)
http://wowwebstats.com/3p5abrgp4tl4o
We didn't really plan on making all four chests, thus the subtlety rogue, MS warrior, and disc priest, but apparently that doesn't matter!
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
The main thing about the bear run isn't which classes you bring; It's the synergy of the classes you bring and/or the roles they can fill:
We normally don't run with a Prot Pally, for any AoE (eagle gauntlet, dragonhawk adds) a mage and warlock handle it with frost nova/SoC, AoE taunt for emergencies.
You're pretty much chain pulling, so if you have a Pally or Shaman healing, they will probably need a shadow priest to keep their mana up. For us (Holy Priest/Resto Druid) last night, we almost never dipped below 90% mana (go spirit regen, woo! *\o/*) so a shadow priest is really just a luxury that lets us not have to pop mana pots unless someone fks up. (Holy disconnects Batman)
Like Riz said, don't forget Mind Control IS a viable form of CC, as is trap. It's more difficult without a mage, but totally possible.
Other random things:
~DON'T PANIC.
~Don't be the asshole on vent that's like, "go, go, we have to go, hurry up, go, go, go." The best way to encourage someone to make a mistake is to keep them under constant stress. Yes, time is important. Chain pulling is necessary. The most important thing by far is not screwing up. Just relax and stay alert.
~If you do make a mistake: Don't give up. We've still been successful with not one, but *two* wipes to incredibly stupid things.
~Speed at the beginning is just as important as speed at the end. Maintain a steady, quick pace so you don't have to feel rushed further in.
~Have a "spotter" for the stupid scouts coming from behind. Any of the summoned guys lose you ~1 min.
~The trash to the lynx boss seems to have the most potential for mistakes. If you have only one person capable of dispelling the Mind Control, having them equip a PvP trinket is a good idea. Dispels really need to be lightning fast, things can go very badly very quickly if they aren't.
~Try to keep a consistent group. Right now we're subbing people in to get bears, and instead of say, swapping a healer and dps in, we have an experienced healer respec or hop on an alt so we're only replacing one actual person at a time. When everyone knows exactly where to be, what to look for, etc it greatly lowers the chance of things going wrong.
So good luck, have fun, and go get bears!
FUCK YOU CRUSHING ME BETWEEN POWERSHIFTS AT THE LAST POSSIBLE SECOND AND MAKING ME EAT A 12K SOUL SCREAM
RAAAAAAAAAAGEEGEGEEGEGEEEEJAKDLFJSF
INCOHERENT RAGE
1) take screenshots of the offending CRUSHSOULSCREAMLOL incident
2) print it out
3) take it outside
4) pee all over it.
Maybe that's just me though.
Hmmmm, does anyone around here have a pic of Saeris?
Also, is there anything I should know about the trash that's super annoying?
I've not been in a raid since BWL 2 summers ago, so I have no clue what to expect, espcially since most of the other people I'm going with have never done raids...
should I be nervous? We wreck 5mans when we run together, but we've been having problems with Heroics.
get your own starcraft 2 signature at sc2sig.com
It's not just about damage mitigation (though it helps; the less damage he takes, the easier a job the healers have, and the easier a job they have, the more time, effort and mana they can expend keeping everyone else up), but threat generation (which allows dps to go harder and earlier, which leads to shorter fights which are good all around) and rage generation/ability cost discounts (which ties into threat generation, but seriously, building threat with expensive sunders and without devistate/shield slam can suck ass).
If your crew is mostly rocking badge gear and has either an awesome off-tank or this guy's just off tanking for a badass prot paladin or something, it should be fine. If that's the main tank, I'd be very warry.
Bluntly, any good dps should at least risk pulling aggro off a tank now and then, that's why we have vanish, invis, soulshatter and feign. A non-prot tank is that much easier to pull off of in most cases (unless the tank is, like, T6 and the dps are in D3 still) and it leads to messier or longer / more frustrating fights.
The trash in Kara is fine once you learn the pulls, the only thing I've seen new people do consistantly is body pull Curator, so I'd make sure people know whats up on those pulls.
even if you survive long enough, your threat will be too crappy otherwise
They might take some crushes due to a lack of Imp Shield Block but the only boss that might be noticeable on would be Prince who generally crushes the hell out of warriors anyway. I wouldn't freak out at this point about having a non-prot warrior unless they are in all greens.
He says they're having trouble just in heroics, so they're probably in mostly blues.
Most of the trash is undead, so can be shackled if you need the cc. Some are demons (so can be banished) on the way to Maiden. I could go on about others further in, but I think if it's the first time you and your mates are setting foot in there, if you get beyond opera you'd be doing extremely well first time.
I'll say as a general tip, for when you're starting to raid kara, is when you look at a room full of mobs, mark the ones you can see are wondering around between groups, so you can get cleaner pulls (i.e. you don't want a big chain pull, where you pull a group, it agro's the pat, and he in turn brings along the next group).
Only mobs that annoys me, are the Robots on the way to the curator, as they put a debuff on one person, and that one person starts doing arcane explosions. The idea is that that person moves away from everyone else, till the debuff is gone, but nearly all the time, it gets put on a person who doesn't pay attention.
However, first time in with a group of people who have not been in ther either, you'd be doing extremely well to get that far.
We had killed them by kiting one down to maiden, but then we were like screw this, let's just skip them.
we just cross tanked them. MT and OT both build aggro on both targets...it has a 50/50 chance.
Yeah that's what I meant. It very rarely worked in the beginning just because of how hard it is.
Deep prot has great talents for threat generation, shield slam, defiance, one handed spec, devastate, and lots of different rage reducing talents that almost make sunder/devastate free to use.
If you are main tanking kara as a warrior you need to be full prot. If you are offtanking kara you are only needed on a few fights; Attumen, Moroes, Two of three opera events and netherspite, and a little bit of trash in between, so with an uncrushable/uncrittable set of blues you can do it as non-prot.
edit: and what sort of problems are you having in heroics? is the tank losing aggro? Healer unable to keep the tank alive? DPS too slow so the healer goes OOM?
oh man kara has the most annoying trash ever, especially for new groups.
To Attumen:
Horses charge and fear, the humanoid-undead heal.
To moroes:
Some of the dancing packs are elite packs, totally skippable DO NOT PULL.
Cant remember the name but there are stationary mobs that hit really hard.
skeletons take away all your armor.
group of two mobs stun when they are at low health and hit really hard all of a sudden. disarm before the stun.
To maiden:
mobs throw up an aura that reduces damage done, try to cc as many as possible, shackle/banish
they also seduce and usually run to a healer
To opera:
Single and Dual skeleton guys that freeze the target with the most threat and go to the second highest, tell the DPS to slow down untill after the first iceblock. Shackle the second mob.
Pull the actor guys into the stair/hallway, pats come really close to that small room. Cleanse the sleep, especially if it is on one of your tanks.
To curator:
Robots put a debuff on a random person maing them explode all over people next to them he should run away.
blueberry mobs have a magic shield, if you have a free priest mana burn owns these mobs so hard.
the rest includes magic immune worms, more robots, the two little voidwalker looking adds with the big one explode when about to die, stun them when they get low health- also banishable. Annoying stealthing mobs at the top of every ramp - guaranteed to be face pulled at least once every run. Untauntable Ethereals that disarm the tank. aaand finally you come to shadowfiend looking guys that use gaping maw to really hurt anyone standing in front of them.
it's only like 20 bux!
it's an adveeeenture!
Also, things like Aran/Prince... make sure everyones inside the room before you pull the boss. The doors close and lock everyone on the otherside out. (seems like common sense... but you'd be surprised)
Another really cool thing to do on Aran is open the door, have someone aggro the boss when no one is ready, and then sit outside while everyone inside get's slaughtered.
Yes this happend two weeks ago.
Yes I got slaughtered.
No, I was not happy about it.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
I was one of those lucky ones who was still behind the gate when vael was engaged. I thought it would be funny to start dancing and laughing at those who were stuck inside and were futily running for the closed gate.
Apparently, Vael can breath fire through the gate...
Everyone on vent got a great laugh when my gloating and laughing turned into screams of agony, pain and death.
All those red blobby guys hit like motherfuckers.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat