As a warlock, I'd like to meet the non-paladin tank that can maintain agro on N targets (where N>10) when I'm seeding. Hell, I'll even let him kill the first one by himself before I start, and I can practically guarantee you I end up dead.
planetes42 on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
i dont think Junpei was suggesting you use ONE druid/warrior tank to replace a paladin tank, but it is possible to use one or two druids plus a warrior, or two druids, to replace a paladin tank and they can do a moderately decent job.
But a single druid or warrior would struggle to hold aggro on more than 8-9 targets against healing aggro with the amount of healing needed in Hyjal, let alone AOE DPS.
Dhalphir on
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
but better than a prot warrior trying to dps, which is what we have now.
So wrong. We can't sustain any HPS for the duration of a fight. And while Prot Warrior DPS is just as lacking in amazing, it can be sustained for far longer then a Prot Paladins poor healing. Even chain chugging mana pots your going to go OOM before the end of a fight.
And while there are exceptions the general rule for TBC is that more DPS is always better then more healing.
If I was playing a warlock I would not feel very comfortable AOEing in Hyjal without a paladin tank.
I'm sure it could be done but you'd need to coordinate tank threat very well to allow AOE.
My bad i thought he was saying that having a pally tank makes everything take a lot longer, which is quite frankly bullshit. If he meant that without a pally tank everything takes a whole lot longer then i fully support that statement and i'm an idiot.
I am a warlock. I'm not somehow compelled to spam my Seed button until ghouls are eating my corpse. Watching aoe mode in omen and seeding when you're able to is pretty trivial to do.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
In general it list how much threat you have on all the targets you have hit. I will try to grab a screen shot of it next time I get to use it. But in general mine looks like this.
Mob Name Threat Percentage of threat on the mob.
The percent is not perfect, you can have a 100% and it won't be eating your face but it is good to let you know that now is the time to stop the seeds for a few seconds to let the aoe tanks to get more threat.
It also shows a little target next to the name of your current target so if you are not aoeing at the moment you can at least single target one of the low threat targets. I wish I could select targets through it, that would be awesome.
Mazzyx on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
thats due to threat mechanics, you need 131% of a tank's threat to pull it off him if you're at range.
I know that, its actually not the standard 130% that the single target does. Not certian cause it caps at a hundred, which is kind of annoying since your are not certian how much more threat you have left or not. In general though as long as you stop when they start turning red 90-100% value(I am at work, can't mess with it) for a few seconds you stay alive pretty well.
AoE mode does not show anyone else threat but your own either.
It shows you your % of the mob's target's threat for every mob in the area, represented as a number and as a bar that goes from 0 to 100%. So while 100% of tank threat shows a maxed out bar, you won't pull until you hit 130.
I usually cast one more seed after the first 100% I hit, then switch to single target for a bit.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Yeah, I haven't played with it to much. That is what I was guessing at the end but was not certian since omen does show on single target how much over/under you are the tank since I know that 30% has saved my warlocks butt a few times. I figured they would have done something similar and that the 100% was just the equivelent of like 110-120% threat so I just usually laid off there cause an extra seed or a seed sent earlier and forgot about on a target going off sometimes lead to a ghoul running towards me and trying to bite my head off.
I am a warlock. I'm not somehow compelled to spam my Seed button until ghouls are eating my corpse. Watching aoe mode in omen and seeding when you're able to is pretty trivial to do.
I'm a warlock as well, if you're regularly pulling off your pally tank with SoCs then he either doesn't know wtf he's doing or has pretty scrub gear, or you're geared way beyond me.
I am a warlock. I'm not somehow compelled to spam my Seed button until ghouls are eating my corpse. Watching aoe mode in omen and seeding when you're able to is pretty trivial to do.
I'm a warlock as well, if you're regularly pulling off your pally tank with SoCs then he either doesn't know wtf he's doing or has pretty scrub gear, or you're geared way beyond me.
I am a warlock. I'm not somehow compelled to spam my Seed button until ghouls are eating my corpse. Watching aoe mode in omen and seeding when you're able to is pretty trivial to do.
I'm a warlock as well, if you're regularly pulling off your pally tank with SoCs then he either doesn't know wtf he's doing or has pretty scrub gear, or you're geared way beyond me.
Thats my hit gear, I have some just general dps gear which gets me about 1245 spell damage. Thats with out and spell damage food or potions. I usually if its a high level raid pop a flask of pure death and a spell damage food which is about another 100 spell damage. I think it was a mix of that and the tanks gear being ok but not great. Also first time for a lot of us being in Hyjal since it is the we are cool guys lets take some people who don't get to do tier 6 content on this server group.
Given that SoCs are pure shadow damage you're actually going to be doing less dmg than me per SoC. Personally i don't flask or eat until the boss comes, we've generally got enough to a gap to get the well fed bonus and we generally run with at least 3 or 4 warlocks so there's no real need for us to flask and eat on the trash pulls.
He's going to be doing considerably more seed damage than you, actually.
Even back when I was affliction (when we were breaking hyjal), pulling off our prot paladin wasn't too difficult if I was spamming seed. Now, if I go back with a different run or something, I'm usually at 100% of tank threat within 4-5 seeds unless I give the tank a 30 second lead. Even with our (T6) prot paladin tanking, I'll pull aggro sooner or later.
How much NR and FR would a Hydross adds tank need? I can't seem to find this info anywhere.
Late to the party... but don't use any NR or FR for hydross add tanks. Having two tanks trying to pick up four targets in gimpy mixed resist gear is just asking for your healers (or AE) to get waxed on transitions.
We found it far more effective to just use four tank-ish kind of people in normal or pvp gear (warriors, druids, even rogues sometimes,) slap a shaman in their group for some nominal resists via totems, and assign them to each of the four adds. at the beginning of each transition, your main tank will take little to no damage, so you can easily have a healer dedicated to each of your add tanks.
Just make sure each of your four people understand the terms "left" and "right." We always seemed to have problems with directions.
Ok so, we had some very good progress with felmyst last night. A solid 2-3 transitions, even made it to enrage 2-3 times. Skeletons are excellent (/buffs finger nails on shirt), MT healing is very good (although once in awhile he'll eat a bad cleave/hit combo), mass dispells are completely on the ball. Everything was perfect!
When certain groups didn't get encapsulate.
I would watch felmyst while tossing meanial heals and decursing the MT and when i saw her turn to face a group, i knew. I JUST KNEW exactly who was going to die.
"Facing west" I know automatically in my head *ok, her, him and him are going to die*
My question is, Arcane resistance? Is this worthwhile?
Also, position those of your members that are terrible at running in the closest places to safe zones. Put anyone that can remove the debuff in the center of the groups (Mages/Paladins).
All of our people have an "oh em gee save me" macro that uses some combination of consumables, and when you get encapsulated, you just spam it.
If the non-encapsulated people are getting killed, I don't know what to tell you. Wearing AR depends on how much spare healing and damage you have to throw around, but we don't have much.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Pound it into their heads that the very second they see a dragon turning towards them is an excellent time to stop what they were doing and run whilst mousing towards the healthstone button. And yes, Arcane Potions help a ton. The way we generally do it is to drop a cauldron before the pull, have everyone gulp a potion at the start of the pull, and drop subsequent cauldrons/use potions at the end of every air phase.
So, guild first attempt at void reaver last night. turns out void reaver alert doesn't work. nice thing to find out your first time there.
have any of you tried the "everyone on his feet" (except hunters) method? We did it once and got two orbs dropped on us right at the beginning (from running in). we decided to go back to the 'original' method after that, but were wondering if that method has been done successfully by any of y'all.
also -- tips for keep threat for the tanks? We had 2 druids; a warrior & a pally, and by the 5 minute mark they were having severe issues staying ahead of dps (and the dps were being "good"). Our WWS didn't log last night else I'd post it.
planetes42 on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
your tanks just need to realise that they need to focus on threat as much as possible
paladins should flask for spell damage, eat spell damage food, and use wizard oil, judge Crusader, prioritise Consecrate and other threat abilities over holy Shield (not ignore it completely, but if they're both up at the same time, use Consecrate. Void Reaver doesn't hit that hard, you'll be going out of mana if you don't take a crush or two.
We tried the 'everyone in' method on VR; I really don't like it. It only takes a few attempts to get people to learn how to avoid the orbs and it's alot less stressful on your healers. The orbs will hit you in melee range from time to time still (I've been hit multiple times as a tank) so the normal method is less risky.
Your DPS only need to do (IIRC) like 530DPS each to beat the enrage as long as they don't die, so you can afford to slow the DPS by quite a bit if it keeps more people alive. I don't think four tanks are neccessary either if your DPS is falling behind, I've done the fight with three multiple times.
Have your paladin be the first tank because they can generate a massive threat lead so your DPS can start earlier. When tanking VR (as a warrior) I'll change to dual wielding if I find I'm falling behind, swapping my shield back in when Shield Slam is off cooldown or when it's my turn as MT.
Posts
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
So you raid without Warlocks or something?
I'm sure it could be done but you'd need to coordinate tank threat very well to allow AOE.
they're excellent in all other aspects, but they just haven't had to learn how to tank against serious AOE like in Hyjal, so they haven't done so.
I'm always there, and for the times when I'm not, we've since recruited Aldarez who is also a fantastic paladin tank.
But a single druid or warrior would struggle to hold aggro on more than 8-9 targets against healing aggro with the amount of healing needed in Hyjal, let alone AOE DPS.
So wrong. We can't sustain any HPS for the duration of a fight. And while Prot Warrior DPS is just as lacking in amazing, it can be sustained for far longer then a Prot Paladins poor healing. Even chain chugging mana pots your going to go OOM before the end of a fight.
And while there are exceptions the general rule for TBC is that more DPS is always better then more healing.
Teron:
http://wowwebstats.com/nnldqaybpwby1?s=5998-6203
Crash is full prot, comfortable at 1k dps.
My bad i thought he was saying that having a pally tank makes everything take a lot longer, which is quite frankly bullshit. If he meant that without a pally tank everything takes a whole lot longer then i fully support that statement and i'm an idiot.
I am a warlock. I'm not somehow compelled to spam my Seed button until ghouls are eating my corpse. Watching aoe mode in omen and seeding when you're able to is pretty trivial to do.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
I can't get it to actually show anything
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Then yes, in that case, that must be why.
So what does it actually show?
edit: any chance of a screenshot of it in action?
Mob Name Threat Percentage of threat on the mob.
The percent is not perfect, you can have a 100% and it won't be eating your face but it is good to let you know that now is the time to stop the seeds for a few seconds to let the aoe tanks to get more threat.
It also shows a little target next to the name of your current target so if you are not aoeing at the moment you can at least single target one of the low threat targets. I wish I could select targets through it, that would be awesome.
AoE mode does not show anyone else threat but your own either.
I usually cast one more seed after the first 100% I hit, then switch to single target for a bit.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
I usually use the single target mode, but it doesn't help very well with loose mobs.
I'm a warlock as well, if you're regularly pulling off your pally tank with SoCs then he either doesn't know wtf he's doing or has pretty scrub gear, or you're geared way beyond me.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Frostmourne&n=Immalek
He's geared way beyond you. Tank thread doesn't scale as well as damage output.
Its a mix of the tank have less gear than me and me having better gear than you.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Silver%20Hand&n=Mazzyx
Thats my hit gear, I have some just general dps gear which gets me about 1245 spell damage. Thats with out and spell damage food or potions. I usually if its a high level raid pop a flask of pure death and a spell damage food which is about another 100 spell damage. I think it was a mix of that and the tanks gear being ok but not great. Also first time for a lot of us being in Hyjal since it is the we are cool guys lets take some people who don't get to do tier 6 content on this server group.
Even back when I was affliction (when we were breaking hyjal), pulling off our prot paladin wasn't too difficult if I was spamming seed. Now, if I go back with a different run or something, I'm usually at 100% of tank threat within 4-5 seeds unless I give the tank a 30 second lead. Even with our (T6) prot paladin tanking, I'll pull aggro sooner or later.
For reference, here's me:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dark+Iron&n=Morekana
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Late to the party... but don't use any NR or FR for hydross add tanks. Having two tanks trying to pick up four targets in gimpy mixed resist gear is just asking for your healers (or AE) to get waxed on transitions.
We found it far more effective to just use four tank-ish kind of people in normal or pvp gear (warriors, druids, even rogues sometimes,) slap a shaman in their group for some nominal resists via totems, and assign them to each of the four adds. at the beginning of each transition, your main tank will take little to no damage, so you can easily have a healer dedicated to each of your add tanks.
Just make sure each of your four people understand the terms "left" and "right." We always seemed to have problems with directions.
When certain groups didn't get encapsulate.
I would watch felmyst while tossing meanial heals and decursing the MT and when i saw her turn to face a group, i knew. I JUST KNEW exactly who was going to die.
"Facing west" I know automatically in my head *ok, her, him and him are going to die*
My question is, Arcane resistance? Is this worthwhile?
Also, position those of your members that are terrible at running in the closest places to safe zones. Put anyone that can remove the debuff in the center of the groups (Mages/Paladins).
If the non-encapsulated people are getting killed, I don't know what to tell you. Wearing AR depends on how much spare healing and damage you have to throw around, but we don't have much.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Battlemaster trinket
Healthstones
Arcane Protection Potion
pop it as soon as encap hits, and you have an extra ~6-7k hp space to move to safety. You can macro it too.
have any of you tried the "everyone on his feet" (except hunters) method? We did it once and got two orbs dropped on us right at the beginning (from running in). we decided to go back to the 'original' method after that, but were wondering if that method has been done successfully by any of y'all.
also -- tips for keep threat for the tanks? We had 2 druids; a warrior & a pally, and by the 5 minute mark they were having severe issues staying ahead of dps (and the dps were being "good"). Our WWS didn't log last night else I'd post it.
paladins should flask for spell damage, eat spell damage food, and use wizard oil, judge Crusader, prioritise Consecrate and other threat abilities over holy Shield (not ignore it completely, but if they're both up at the same time, use Consecrate. Void Reaver doesn't hit that hard, you'll be going out of mana if you don't take a crush or two.
Your DPS only need to do (IIRC) like 530DPS each to beat the enrage as long as they don't die, so you can afford to slow the DPS by quite a bit if it keeps more people alive. I don't think four tanks are neccessary either if your DPS is falling behind, I've done the fight with three multiple times.
Have your paladin be the first tank because they can generate a massive threat lead so your DPS can start earlier. When tanking VR (as a warrior) I'll change to dual wielding if I find I'm falling behind, swapping my shield back in when Shield Slam is off cooldown or when it's my turn as MT.
I wouldn't say this is typical at all though.
It depends on gear level. Some of our first kills where right at the enrage.