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inter-religious marriage

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    Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2008
    Take it out of the thread. Just do it. Don't address me, don't respond to me, take the little chip on your shoulder about this out of the fucking thread.

    Wonder_Hippie on
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    geckahngeckahn Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Man, I'm glad I don't know you.

    geckahn on
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    Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2008
    What was the point of that? You can fuck off, too. I'm glad I don't know you as well. Why the fuck did you feel the need to post that?

    Wonder_Hippie on
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    geckahngeckahn Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    What was the point of that? You can fuck off, too. I'm glad I don't know you as well. Why the fuck did you feel the need to post that?

    Because I thought it.

    You have the audacity to tell other people how to raise their children, and I'm sure you were a huge dick about it. Thats . . . fucked up. You're one of those pushy outspoken atheists that I cant fucking stand.

    You are, for all intents and purposes, no better then those you hate. Just more rational. Remember that.

    geckahn on
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    VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    but the rational part is pretty important don't you think?

    Variable on
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    Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2008
    geckahn wrote: »
    What was the point of that? You can fuck off, too. I'm glad I don't know you as well. Why the fuck did you feel the need to post that?

    Because I thought it.

    You have the audacity to tell other people how to raise their children, and I'm sure you were a huge dick about it. Thats . . . fucked up. You're one of those pushy outspoken atheists that I cant fucking stand.

    You are, for all intents and purposes, no better then those you hate. Just more rational. Remember that.

    Wait, it takes audacity to ask that people not mentally handicap their kids? What fucked version of reality are you operating under? My reaction had nothing to do with my atheism and everything to do with the fact that they were deliberately - but perhaps unwittingly, I will admit - crippling their own kids. It's not audacity to expect a higher standard of education in America and voice that desire.

    Wonder_Hippie on
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    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Variable wrote: »
    but the rational part is pretty important don't you think?

    A rational dick is still just as much a dick as an irrational dick.

    reVerse on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    geckahn wrote: »
    You have the audacity to tell other people how to raise their children, and I'm sure you were a huge dick about it.

    Some people are terrible parents. Should others intervene?

    Loren Michael on
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    VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    reVerse wrote: »
    Variable wrote: »
    but the rational part is pretty important don't you think?

    A rational dick is still just as much a dick as an irrational dick.

    but he's rational. I mean, if someone screamed at me that the sky was neon green I'd get pissed off and argue. if they screamed at me that the sky was blue I'd say "yeah I know WHY ARE YOU SCREAMING?". but if I argued with the second person, I'd be the idiot.

    Variable on
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    geckahngeckahn Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Variable wrote: »
    but the rational part is pretty important don't you think?

    My Science!

    Rational is good, but they still have all the components that make them insufferable assholes.

    geckahn on
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    VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    geckahn wrote: »
    Variable wrote: »
    but the rational part is pretty important don't you think?

    My Science!

    Rational is good, but they still have all the components that make them insufferable assholes.

    I won't deny that, but there's a line between simply being an asshole and being such an asshole you are now wrong.

    Variable on
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    JansonJanson Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Oooh boy, inter-faith marriages.

    Janson on
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    Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Take it out of the thread. Just do it. Don't address me, don't respond to me, take the little chip on your shoulder about this out of the fucking thread.


    I'm not flaming you, baiting you or being unreasonable. You posted about a seriously assholish thing you did, and I've commented on it. You can't handle the criticism reasonably, and I guess that's fine, but you don't get to order me not to post and respond. Go ahead and put me back on ignore if it makes you happier. I'm OK with reading your posts even when you personally attack me and flail about accusing me of illiteracy, so I'm not putting you on ignore, which means there's a chance I am going to respond to a post of yours. That's pretty much an accepted risk of participating in this forum community.

    Regina Fong on
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    MongerMonger I got the ham stink. Dallas, TXRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Variable wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Variable wrote: »
    but the rational part is pretty important don't you think?

    A rational dick is still just as much a dick as an irrational dick.

    but he's rational. I mean, if someone screamed at me that the sky was neon green I'd get pissed off and argue. if they screamed at me that the sky was blue I'd say "yeah I know WHY ARE YOU SCREAMING?". but if I argued with the second person, I'd be the idiot.
    I'm pretty sure rationality involves understanding that religion has a cultural, social, and emotional function in society, and that stupid people who abuse it will still be stupid regardless of religion (or lack thereof). I'm pretty sure it also means acknowledging that there's a reason for every belief a person holds, and so long as that reason isn't misinformation or a mental disorder it's nobody's damn business but their own to try to change.

    No, Hippie, being religious doesn't count as a mental disorder.

    Monger on
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    Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Variable wrote: »
    geckahn wrote: »
    Variable wrote: »
    but the rational part is pretty important don't you think?

    My Science!

    Rational is good, but they still have all the components that make them insufferable assholes.

    I won't deny that, but there's a line between simply being an asshole and being such an asshole you are now wrong.


    Telling other people that their religious values are crippling their children crosses the line pretty clearly. You don't go into your in-laws home and start an argument with them and attack their cultural values. Who would ever think this was appropriate?

    Regina Fong on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Telling other people that their religious values are crippling their children crosses the line pretty clearly.

    Fundamentalist LDS?

    Loren Michael on
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    AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    If someone is indoctrinating children who can't think for themselves with information like "the world is 6,000 years old," "birth control is a sin," "the Rapture is coming," and "all evidence to the contrary was put there by God to test our faith", that is pretty much child abuse. They are failing to equip their children with knowledge and skills that are needed to succeed in the real world, condemning them to a lifetime of ignorance, poverty and uncontrolled procreation, out of a selfish desire to delay the extinction of their insipid, backwards ideology for another generation. Just because someone is not literally fucking their children in the ass does not mean it isn't abuse.

    I mean, it maybe isn't the most polite thing to inform them of this, but someone has to let them know or else the stupid fuckers'll just keep doing it without a second thought. If you think I'm fanatical for being concerned enough about the intellectual wellbeing of children that I might occasionally, from time to time, drop the pretense of politely tolerating religious nonsense that has no business existing in this century, you need to grow a thicker skin and grow up, and also learn the true definition of "fanatical".

    Azio on
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    geckahngeckahn Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Telling other people that their religious values are crippling their children crosses the line pretty clearly.

    Fundamentalist LDS?

    That goes so far beyond that. Dont even go there.

    geckahn on
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    Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    I hope we could find it within ourselves to draw some sort of difference between marrying off your 11 year old daughter to her cousin (who has 5 other wives) and teaching your children (erroneously) that the fossil record is a lie.

    Maybe if we try real hard.


    Maybe if we rub both braincells together we could do it.

    Regina Fong on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    geckahn wrote: »
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Telling other people that their religious values are crippling their children crosses the line pretty clearly.

    Fundamentalist LDS?

    That goes so far beyond that. Dont even go there.

    He's talking about a line. I'm wondering where that is. How far beyond the line is it?

    What about subjugation of women? This could be via genital mutilation, education deprivation, concerns of honor, whatever. It starts young, and it pretty clearly cripples children.

    Should our lips be sealed?

    Loren Michael on
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    geckahngeckahn Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    geckahn wrote: »
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Telling other people that their religious values are crippling their children crosses the line pretty clearly.

    Fundamentalist LDS?

    That goes so far beyond that. Dont even go there.

    He's talking about a line. I'm wondering where that is. How far beyond the line is it?

    What about subjugation of women? This could be via genital mutilation, education deprivation, concerns of honor, whatever. It starts young, and it pretty clearly cripples children.

    Should our lips be sealed?

    The line is child abuse. Don't be an idiot.

    geckahn on
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    Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    geckahn wrote: »
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Telling other people that their religious values are crippling their children crosses the line pretty clearly.

    Fundamentalist LDS?

    That goes so far beyond that. Dont even go there.

    He's talking about a line. I'm wondering where that is. How far beyond the line is it?

    What about subjugation of women? This could be via genital mutilation, education deprivation, concerns of honor, whatever. It starts young, and it pretty clearly cripples children.

    Should our lips be sealed?


    Genital mutilation is already a very serious crime in the U.S. There are also laws concerning mandatory childhood education, treatment of women etc. etc. etc.

    The correct way to address these kinds of social matters is through the law, and not by picking out particular religious practices or religions and attacking them.

    Regina Fong on
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    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    geckahn wrote: »
    geckahn wrote: »
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Telling other people that their religious values are crippling their children crosses the line pretty clearly.

    Fundamentalist LDS?

    That goes so far beyond that. Dont even go there.

    He's talking about a line. I'm wondering where that is. How far beyond the line is it?

    What about subjugation of women? This could be via genital mutilation, education deprivation, concerns of honor, whatever. It starts young, and it pretty clearly cripples children.

    Should our lips be sealed?

    The line is child abuse. Don't be an idiot.

    So subjugation of women is a-okey aslong as they're adults?

    reVerse on
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    Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    reVerse wrote: »
    geckahn wrote: »
    geckahn wrote: »
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Telling other people that their religious values are crippling their children crosses the line pretty clearly.

    Fundamentalist LDS?

    That goes so far beyond that. Dont even go there.

    He's talking about a line. I'm wondering where that is. How far beyond the line is it?

    What about subjugation of women? This could be via genital mutilation, education deprivation, concerns of honor, whatever. It starts young, and it pretty clearly cripples children.

    Should our lips be sealed?

    The line is child abuse. Don't be an idiot.

    So subjugation of women is a-okey aslong as they're adults?


    When did you realize that molesting children was your real lifes goal? We're all curious.

    Regina Fong on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Do you feel that there's no debate about what constitutes child abuse, geckhan?

    Loren Michael on
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    Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator Mod Emeritus
    edited June 2008
    Calm the fuck down here, everyone.

    Irond Will on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Genital mutilation is already a very serious crime in the U.S. There are also laws concerning mandatory childhood education, treatment of women etc. etc. etc.

    The correct way to address these kinds of social matters is through the law, and not by picking out particular religious practices or religions and attacking them.

    The law is a form of arbitration of morality, but it does not constitute morality. It is also not the only means of arbitration, and I submit that it should not be the only means of arbitration.

    I submit that social pressures are a valuable means of improving our lot.

    Loren Michael on
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    AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    I submit that social pressures are a valuable means of improving our lot.

    Agreed.

    Azio on
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    Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    In case my joke was taken the wrong way, I was just pointing out to reVerse how unfair the way he framed that question was to Geckahn.


    I mean, it was unfair.

    Regina Fong on
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    AdrienAdrien Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Monger wrote: »
    No, Hippie, being religious doesn't count as a mental disorder.

    Only by convention.

    Adrien on
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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Azio wrote: »
    I submit that social pressures are a valuable means of improving our lot.

    Agreed.

    I submit you two should realize that you're way outnumbered, so social pressures are likely to end up against you, not the other way around.

    Especially if you act like assholes in the process.

    Phoenix-D on
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    KonovaKonova Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Azio wrote: »
    If someone is indoctrinating children who can't think for themselves with information like "the world is 6,000 years old," "birth control is a sin," "the Rapture is coming," and "all evidence to the contrary was put there by God to test our faith", that is pretty much child abuse. They are failing to equip their children with knowledge and skills that are needed to succeed in the real world, condemning them to a lifetime of ignorance, poverty and uncontrolled procreation, out of a selfish desire to delay the extinction of their insipid, backwards ideology for another generation. Just because someone is not literally fucking their children in the ass does not mean it isn't abuse.

    I mean, it maybe isn't the most polite thing to inform them of this, but someone has to let them know or else the stupid fuckers'll just keep doing it without a second thought. If you think I'm fanatical for being concerned enough about the intellectual wellbeing of children that I might occasionally, from time to time, drop the pretense of politely tolerating religious nonsense that has no business existing in this century, you need to grow a thicker skin and grow up, and also learn the true definition of "fanatical".

    This.

    Given the described depth and prevalence of erroneous religious literalism in said family, WonderHippie would've come at odds with these beliefs sooner or later (beliefs not necessarily limited to the promotion of transgressive creationism, mind you). Almost anyone would.

    It doesn't sound too hard, either, to get into a bit of an argument over so called creationist museums, merely by some of the quite literally wrong things they "teach" in such places.

    Hmm, I wonder if Mr Black might have an opinion on the matter...
    The Devil's Handiwork

    Konova on
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    AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Azio wrote: »
    I submit that social pressures are a valuable means of improving our lot.

    Agreed.

    I submit you two should realize that you're way outnumbered, so social pressures are likely to end up against you, not the other way around.

    Especially if you act like assholes in the process.
    Well I've been told. Guess I better Sit Down And Shut Up lest someone think I'm an asshole.

    Azio on
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    MongerMonger I got the ham stink. Dallas, TXRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Genital mutilation is already a very serious crime in the U.S. There are also laws concerning mandatory childhood education, treatment of women etc. etc. etc.

    The correct way to address these kinds of social matters is through the law, and not by picking out particular religious practices or religions and attacking them.

    The law is a form of arbitration of morality, but it does not constitute morality. It is also not the only means of arbitration, and I submit that it should not be the only means of arbitration.

    I submit that social pressures are a valuable means of improving our lot.
    I fail to see how that would accomplish anything. It undermines a person's ability to reason with their need to be accepted into society, promoting outwardly deviant behavior in people who cannot reconcile their beliefs with accepted ones. Society responds by distancing themselves further from the deviants and a bit of cyclical idiocy nets you some extremist conflict. I mean, I see a lot of social pressure Atheism and it tends to be just as reactionary, prejudiced, and obnoxiously loud as the social pressure Christianity or whatever that it tries to distance itself from. They yell at each other for a while and all of a sudden you've got Bill O'Reilly. If you got your social pressure on in some other direction, you'd see the same thing happen, but with a new tie and possibly a monocle, if you're lucky and classy.

    I submit that people need to stop being dipshits.

    See, if you really want to see positive change, the only solution is for every person to have flawless information about every subject known to anyone. Not only is that not feasible, but even if it were true, some people are just incapable of adjusting to some facts. This is doubly true given that we just don't know that much about the functioning of the universe. Keep in mind that human beings are not logical creatures and (IIRC) only 33% of people ever develop the ability to reason formally, and it often comes later in life. That doesn't make the unreasonable ones bad or broken, but does mean you have to live with them. What else are you going to do? Systematic Extermination? Genetic manipulation so that everyone reasons identically? Honestly, arbitration is just about the best thing in this situation because it serves solely as damage control for the people that just can't calm themselves the fuck down.

    tl;dr: The world sucks. You aren't going to change shit. Deal with it.
    Adrien wrote: »
    Monger wrote: »
    No, Hippie, being religious doesn't count as a mental disorder.

    Only by convention.
    The belief in some kind of higher power has absolutely nothing to do with a person's ability to become a functional, productive human being, nor is it destructive in and of itself. The irrational religious nonsense people complain about is a product of people being insecure and/or uninformed due to other people drawing false conclusions and/or being manipulative. This is certainly not limited to, or the fault of, religion and, again, the root of the problem is people being dipshits.


    You know what? The irony of even posting this is depressing me. I need to kill some digital shit now.

    Monger on
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    KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Hey guys I hear only religious people believe stupid shit.

    Good thing us non-religious people can never be stupid.

    Kagera on
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    MongerMonger I got the ham stink. Dallas, TXRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Kagera wrote: »
    Hey guys I hear only religious people believe stupid shit.

    Good thing us non-religious people can never be stupid.
    Goddamn. Everything I wanted to say in two sentences. And also probably a crack at me which, in turn, proves the point.

    Monger on
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Well, this thread went to hell.

    At least we got like 4 or so good pages out of it.

    shryke on
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    FirstComradeStalinFirstComradeStalin Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Back on topic?

    Old people are racist/religionist(there's got to be a better term) as hell.

    FirstComradeStalin on
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    DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Back on topic:

    I have my own experience to share, and the wisdom from which I have gleaned. The two most important points to take into account when you marry someone who holds a different religious view are:

    1) Can you respect your partner's religion?

    and 2) If you can or cannot respect it, can you come to an agreement on how to raise children?

    I married my wife almost five years ago, with two years dating before that. Last year we started to really have problems regarding children, and we finalized our divorce in March. My wife is LDS, more commonly known as Mormon. I gave her church a shot, quickly realized it's batshit insane once I attended a Sunday school class where the lesson was marriage between different ethnicities and how bad it was, and progressively tried to show her all the logical fallacies, utter bullshit, and crazy stuff the church was about. We argued, we fought, and we decided to take our chances in marriage, because we truly loved one another and figured that eventually we could come to a compromise. While it was a gamble, it was one we were both willing to take, but it failed for both of us.

    I tried to keep my contempt for her religion under wraps, but it is hard. Every time we would ever have an argument, she would feel that I was being contradictory because of my views of her religion. Any constructive criticism, even something as harmless as "Honey, can we try going the other way when we go to the store, I want to see if it's faster?" became a "You always have to be right" argument. It really wounded us, because she held her religion as something that made her the person she was, while I viewed it as a part of her, but she was a wonderful person regardless of the influence of religion.

    Last spring it came to a head, when we were talking about having children the part about religion came up. She wanted our children to go to Sunday school. I said I was not going to have my children indoctrinated in a religion that believes, to this modern day, that blacks are descended from Cain. She said that while she didn't believe in that policy, she believed in the rest of the church, and that good things can be learned. I said that while that may be true, what kind of example of a father would I be to compromise on such an important moral issue as racism? Furthermore, what was I telling my children by sending them to church, only to point out to them which things were wrong afterwards?

    The resulting discord poisoned the marriage, resulting in our divorce.

    So, if you can honestly answer those two points, you could probably make it work. Hope that helps.

    DoctorArch on
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    PataPata Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Archgarth wrote: »
    I gave her church a shot, quickly realized it's batshit insane once I attended a Sunday school class where the lesson was marriage between different ethnicities and how bad it was,

    What the crap.

    I don't know what "LDS" church you went to, but it was not one teaching the actual doctrine of the church. It does not teach that, at all.

    Pata on
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