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Grad school: Bad idea or REALLY bad idea?
Cytosine
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Grad school.
I’ve heard the horror stories, and I’ve read webcomics about it; but who has actually been there?
I ask only because my summer internship has really got me thinking. In Canada we have things called USRAs (Undergraduate Student Research Awards) which are provided by NSERC (Natural Sciences & Engineering Research Council of Canada). Basically, I get to play grad student for a summer. I run my own experiments, keep records, and may even be co-authoring a paper in the next few weeks. It’s an awesome experience, but it was never really the line of work I intended to do in the future.
But, hell, I like it. I’ve been working towards pharmacy school acceptance for the past two years, but I’m beginning to wonder if I want that, or if my parents want it. Money is nice, and I’ll make plenty of that as a pharmacist, but I think the job will be boring as shit. I will likely develop better things to spend my time on, and generally not give a damn about my career. But that’s another story.
I was thinking of doing my master’s in chemistry/biochemistry. I have pretty good grades (91-92 avg. as of start of my third year), I’ve been teaching cram classes for a year, and will likely continue to do so throughout University. Not to sound cocky, but acceptance isn’t really a huge issue. I doubt I’d do a PhD as I think I’m too much of a lazy pothead to finish it.
The Help/Advice part is: Have you completed your master’s? Was it worth it? Did it help you in a finding an enjoyable and profitable career? I get a pretty good perspective from the students currently completing their master’s/PhD, but I find that people who have already passed through school to have a broader perspective of the issue as they are not in the middle of it.
So, complete strangers on the internet, impart your wisdom upon me.
I’ve heard the horror stories, and I’ve read webcomics about it; but who has actually been there?
I ask only because my summer internship has really got me thinking. In Canada we have things called USRAs (Undergraduate Student Research Awards) which are provided by NSERC (Natural Sciences & Engineering Research Council of Canada). Basically, I get to play grad student for a summer. I run my own experiments, keep records, and may even be co-authoring a paper in the next few weeks. It’s an awesome experience, but it was never really the line of work I intended to do in the future.
But, hell, I like it. I’ve been working towards pharmacy school acceptance for the past two years, but I’m beginning to wonder if I want that, or if my parents want it. Money is nice, and I’ll make plenty of that as a pharmacist, but I think the job will be boring as shit. I will likely develop better things to spend my time on, and generally not give a damn about my career. But that’s another story.
I was thinking of doing my master’s in chemistry/biochemistry. I have pretty good grades (91-92 avg. as of start of my third year), I’ve been teaching cram classes for a year, and will likely continue to do so throughout University. Not to sound cocky, but acceptance isn’t really a huge issue. I doubt I’d do a PhD as I think I’m too much of a lazy pothead to finish it.
The Help/Advice part is: Have you completed your master’s? Was it worth it? Did it help you in a finding an enjoyable and profitable career? I get a pretty good perspective from the students currently completing their master’s/PhD, but I find that people who have already passed through school to have a broader perspective of the issue as they are not in the middle of it.
So, complete strangers on the internet, impart your wisdom upon me.
Cytosine on
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the question you need to ask yourself is how will an advanced degree help me?
will you make substantially more?
will you get a better postion?
what do you want to do with your undergrad degree? if you are going industry, a master will get you a higher payscale but you you will still be low on the totem pole.
its really what you want to do in you career.
i want to run a lab or teach so thats why i went PhD. if i just wanted more money a masters is a hell of a lot easier
If you go to grad school, be reasonable about your course load. Nine credit hours in grad school is NOTHING like nine credit hours as an undergrad.
This. Lime that. Lime and bold.
The important thing to remember is that grad school (in science) is a job. You come in at a certain time, you leave at a certain time, you have a W-2, you pay taxes. It's just very low-paying. Grad school is only like college for a year, maybe 2, when you take classes. After that's it's just research work until you graduate. If you hate the idea of having a job you'll hate grad school.
First, classes: They aren't worth shit. Seriously, most people take classes for the first few terms, and then never again. No one cares about your grades unless you're failing. In chemistry all they care about is your research. Period, end of question.
As far as master's vs. Ph.D. goes, be aware that there's a glass ceiling involved with the master's in industry. Sometimes you'll just reach a point when you can go no further, pretty much because in the Pharama business, everyone comes in with a Ph.D. That means you'd be likely to see younger people leap-frog you through the company as time goes on. This is not always the case, but headhunters seem to be picking Ph.D. carrying new chemists more and more these days. Pharmacy school is probably different from Pharmaceutical synthesis, though, so take my experience with a crystal of sodium chloride.
Also, at least in my graduate program, we have no master's degree option. This is pretty much the way it is at most 'top' schools, as well, from what I understand. You come in looking to get your Ph.D., and if you leave with your master's, it meant that they either failed you at your candidacy exam, or you opted to leave the Ph.D. program with the good graces and consent of your adviser.
Here's the bottom line, though, for doing an actual Ph.D., and I'll qualify it below: Are you doing this for money alone? If so FUCK THAT. You will hate every moment of it.
I am not kidding here. There are much, much faster and easier ways to get a high-paying job than chemistry grad school. The hours are brutal, the days off are non-existent, and the demands on your attention and endurance are unreasonable. The only, only way you're going to actually find the experience worth your effort is if you do research toward a doctorate because you really love the science, and you want to learn more. Without a passion for the research, you will be bored, tired, angry, and your lab-mates will consider you a slacker and build a negative perception of you. In chemistry, you are going to fail constantly no matter who you are - I mean in terms of projects, reactions, and other short term goals. It's frustrating as all hell, and if you're not ready to keep trying over and over again in a tedious and repetitious manner until things work, it's hard to actually achieve anything. I'll qualify this by saying that when you do achieve something in your research, it's a kick-ass feeling and very rewarding.
That being said, it is a great opportunity to get into the grad school experience as an undergrad. It lets you see what grad school is like before you actually commit yourself to the program, and you can see what it's like in a lab, and the demands that are placed upon you.
Again, that's my soapbox. Take it for whatever you think it's worth, or just throw it out all together.
Edit: Note that chemistry grad school is highly different from most other sciences. Most organic chemistry professors have high demands, but it seems all my physics buddies are still living like they're undergrads.
I would hazard that grad school is entirely dependant on the program (both which subject and which uni).
Maybe chemistry is like this? I'd say it's more like the most awesome but horrifically paying job ever... I dunno about you, but the time thing is definitely not true for the grad students in my biology program (I usually wind up going into lab something like 11am, and then of course leaving at like 9pm+, and the labs are absolutely abandoned at 9 in the morning... there's more people there at midnight)
But the rest of this is true - if you like (love) research, then a PhD is something to think about, but that's really what it is, a research degree, you'll probably spend 3+ years with almost no coursework... you really do have to be the kind of person that would get bored on vacation after 2 weeks because there's no research to do
From what I experienced doing undergraduate research in chemistry, and from what I see now doing graduate research in chemistry, it's not so much the university or the subject so much as the professor you work for which dictates your hours. In my lab most people roll in around ~9am, and no one leaves sooner than midnight, with about a two hour break for dinner if you want it. Most people I've interacted with at conferences say about the same for chemistry, but there's always a little variance.
This basically fucks my plan for life right over. I'm just going to be finishing up High School this year, I got into McGill for Chemistry and I was planning on pursuing a Master's at least but the work doesn't seem very worth it to me. I like chemistry and all but I don't want to devote my life to it.
What can one do in the world with a Bachelor's in Chemistry?
Of course, please remember that you have 4+ years of college ahead of you. There are many many varieties of chemistry (animal, human, plant, soil, biotech, materials, explosives, etc) and you will want to see about trying out classes in several of them as you can manage (USE YOUR ADVISER! If he/she sucks, get another one until you get one that can help you out).
As for the OP. Master's work is extremely dependent on your patron professor and the field of study. Pharm is a good option because it is a steady job. My wife's friend just finished her pharm school training and can now stop school and start working - which is good because by the end she HATED it... but that's true of any school system that focuses on lab work and team projects because, well, labs are frustrating and teams are annoying if you are even half motivated to do a great job. However, she's got a job that will remain useful. She's also considered, strongly, the probability of becoming a lawyer with the Pharm background, which makes her useful to work with and/or against drug companies... which is also something interesting (to some at least).
Murphy's Paradox: The more you plan, the more that can go wrong. The less you plan, the less likely your plan will succeed.
Have you considered Chemical Engineering? Theres lots you can do with a BS in ChemE, and its obviously very closely related to Chemistry.
This.
Or you could do Materials Science and Engineering, which has a lot of non-ridiculous chemistry. I did this. You don't need a Master's.
Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
Regardless of your level of education, you are likely to find something that will keep you challenged if you try. Putting yourself through grad school just opens up more options, and generally opens more lucrative options.
Remember that accredited schools are about degrees more than they are about learning. If it was just about knowledge you could just go to the library.
This reminded me of something I completely neglected to mention: For most sciences (and certainly for chem or biology or biochem), the overall $cost of grad school = 0 to the student. They actually pay you a stipend, because you're in the lab so much you can't really be expected to work. Note, though, that it's uniformly a pathetic and measley stipend. Unless you can get a fellowship, which is really more for the benefit of your lab than your own pocketbook anyway.
First year out of school I am making 75k base salary, plus per diems which are tax free, which raise my pay to over 100k. (Contracting is awesome yes it is!) Also, I'm in CA and am not yet a professional engineer, so I get overtime, a luxury that engineers in any other state do not receive. People with a Bachelors start at an average of 55k.
Also, grad school was free because I was a TA. If you have the option of being a TA, definitely go to grad school. Not only do they pay full tuition and give you a nice stipend, but it is a great experience. Employers seem to think it is impressive too.
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Every level of education you have gets you a few things:
1) Obviously, money. The higher qualified you are, the more money you have the potential to make both out of school and in a related career.
2) Ceiling for advancement. As a bachelor's chemist, I could rise to just below management without much problem. Anything above that and I'd be fighting very hard against others with less experience but higher education and could rise farther. The ceiling is typically the point you reach where your education can hold you back.
3) Opportunity. Most degrees allow you to have a related degree for many types of jobs or career paths. As you get more educated and specialized, this field tends to narrow a bit.
Associates Degree (2 years):
1) Typically, I've seen this allow people to get anything from a standard job through contract or temp agencies with a decent raise to begin with due to your education above a high school diploma. Plus, since education is getting more common, this helps put you above other candidates for positions.
2) As many larger corporate entities prefer most of their employees, depending on the type of job, have 4 years of school or more, this helps you edge out by building a relationship with the company to advance into tougher positions and allows you to gain positions in smaller companies where skills are typically held higher than education. The chance for you to move up is probably limited to those who like experience more than education.
3) While this gives you more opportunity than many who are with a high school diploma or less, many would recommend, if possible, you go back to school and get a bachelors degree. The classes you took for your associate's degree may transfer to a school located in the same state or close by.
Bachelor's Degree (4 years):
1) When I graduated college in 2003, I was told the average college grad made around 35k or so a year. This mostly depends on those reporting what they made and the degree you get. Engineers who reported their salaries tend to make more than that while other majors vary depending on location and need for them in the workforce. However, today, many can sit pretty with a 4 year degree. As time goes on though, there will be more push for those with better education.
2) The ceiling here depends fully on the career path you've chosen. For example, if I was a chemist, my ceiling is below management level from what I hear before my education starts to hold me back. In my current career of regulatory affairs/product registration/compliance, I can make manager or slightly higher before my education holds me back. More and more I hear that to manage people, larger companies tend to want an advanced degree of some sort.
3) There's a lot of opportunity for most 4 year degrees out there to my knowledge. As a chemist, I could do chemistry or I could look at related fields in government policy, environmental studies, chemical/equipment sales, regulatory work or superfund positions with local government.
MBA/MS (2 years advanced degree above bachelors):
1) I have heard that there are a good many positions where a master's degree will not make much less than a PH.D. to begin with, so if you simply want money as someone mentioned above, shoot for this level of education. This can typically count as 1-2 years of experience in a related field along with allowing you the potential to grow and earn a very nice salary.
2) The ceiling for most people with this degree right now strictly depends on the field you go into. A field where the studies and research are a big part of your job like the sciences or social sciences, this will help, but a PH.D may be necessary to have all options open. Many other careers though will allow you to move up any length of the chain with this level of education. Keep in mind that may change in the next 10-20 years.
3) You start to limit your options from a bachelor's degree as you are now starting to specialize a little bit, but for the most part, it isn't very noticeable as you can hold management positions without worry as far as education goes.
PH.D (3-5 years on average above a bachelor's, mostly depends on thesis or equivalent):
1) You should be making a little more money than a master's level person in the same field, but I'm told it isn't going to be very noticeable. However, you do get 2-4 years of relevant job experience from what I've heard from HR groups with this level of education.
2) With a PH.D, the only ceiling you'll ever find is dependent on your life circumstances and how hard you work or how lucky you are. As this is really the highest level of experience one can get, nothing should be closed to you hypothetically from the education standpoint.
3) You start to have less opportunity to use this degree because a PH.D is also very specialized. You may find yourself being told you are overqualified for jobs that you may find interesting, but then again, you did go to school this long and with the relevent job experience many give you for this, you won't need to find entry level positions to work with unless your degree is flooding the markets. In non-relevent areas however, this won't help you any more than a master's degree I'm told.
In the end, what do you want to do? I would recommend finding out what people do with the degree(s) you are looking into. Knowing what I do about chemistry, I'd not be interested in pursuing a chemistry career without a PH.D, but I don't think I have that much schooling in me. While people may disagree, I'd recommend working for a year or two and finding out what people do with all that education and see if you would enjoy it. You might even find a company to help pay for your degrees!
Again, just my observations from my little corner of the world in MN and what I hear from people. Hope this helps.
I'm still out on whether to do grad school or not - and it may end up being a snap decision. I still have 9-10 weeks left in my summer position, and I think it'll help me decide.
Oh, and sorry to anyone who thought I was a completely materialistic bastard. Money is great - but I really do want to enjoy myself in my career.
...Cause it's not like I have a life, or anything.
it was worth the soul sucking job during teh week
I should second the oft-repeated cautions that you have to like this shit. If more time in school does not appeal to you, the hoops you have to jump through to get the grants and the work you have to do to finish the program will not be worth it.