G&T open discussion thread

Captain K

As many people are well aware, some "G&T drama" has occurred recently, and I've been following the discussions about it over the last couple of days. I'm seeing a pretty hefty amount of misinformation being spread, either intentionally or unintentionally, so I'm starting this thread to give people a chance to say whatever's on their mind or ask for clarification about anything, whether related to the aforementioned drama or anything else G&T-related at all.

I can't promise an answer to every question, but feel free to ask anything at all. The worst you'll get is a "sorry, can't say."

And if you really feel it necessary to "get something off your chest" in this thread, please at least try to do it in a civil manner.



So, the floor's open. Who's first?

Faricazy

I don't fully understand your comment about how you want to preserve the community by catering to future users.

Der Waffle Mous

Is alphamonkey really a cylon?







And are our precious chat-threads being threatened?

contraband

I would appreciate a short summary of how everything started. I logged in when people were arguing. I think it has something to do with a certain imageboard?

BiggNife

I think the Chat Thread Rules (halfway down the page) are great, but they really arent being adhered to. Theres still random images and one word posts all the time. It really hasnt changed at all since 500. Personally, I think those rules need to be enforced more.

Gibberx

I only heard references to this in Vent while playing CS (I don't really pay attention to chat threads, they move too fast for me). A quick summary of what is going on would be great.

Sanius

Why does Monoxide and Apotheos feel the need to insult my love for tentacle rape?

The Muffin Man

If our chat thread IS going to go the way of the Dodo, is there a reason why?

I mean I understand we're an on-topic forum, but why G&T alone?


Also, what the hell is up with the mods lately? I'm not trying to sound like an ass, and I know I probably am(so I apologize) but lately certain mods have seemed...out of hand. Thread titles are being changed, members being directly insulted, threads and forumers being trolled and then having the trolling passed off as "an experiment"/"organic scene"? What is this all about?


Speaking of the "organic scene", what the fuck was that all about? Are they trying to test our reaction to randomly entering a police-state on certain issues for no reason? Because I think it's a given we'd be on edge and cranky.


Again, if anything in my post comes off as abraisive, rude, or out of line I apologize. I wish to use this thread as an orderly and calm "What's going on" type of thread just as much as anyone else and would rather it not be locked because I stepped over a line by accident.

Captain K

Faricazy wrote:

I don't fully understand your comment about how you want to preserve the community by catering to future users.

Whenever some kind of broad policy decision gets made, it will probably piss off a few people who are used to doing whatever's suddenly not being done anymore. I was trying to make a (perhaps premature) appeal to everyone's greater sense of reason: something like "you may think that ____ is just stupid and lame because it's changing something that you think is perfectly fine, but the rules and conventions of the forum don't just exist to please any subsection of the forum userbase. They also exist to serve the current userbase as a whole, and also to serve the long-term interests of the forum. So maybe a policy change will be made that some group of people find distasteful, and that group might even be a majority of current forumers, but in every case such changes will be implemented with the best interests of the users, the forum, and Penny Arcade itself in mind."


Short version: sometimes what seems stupid because pretty much everybody is complaining about it is still the right thing to do.

GertBeef

Whoops, meant to put this in the chat thread. Man i'm so easily confused.

I better add my 2c.

I disagree with deadonthestreets.

deadonthestreet

apotheos is a bad forumer. He's pretty much a troll. If a regular forumer behaved like him, they'd be in jail constantly, and probably banned.

He nearly never participates in a positive discussion. I don't think that someone that is such a bad forumer should be a leader of the community.

Echo and Mono almost never post. Mono claims to read the forum, and be on IRC a lot. People who are not part of the community should not make decisions on what is best for the community. Echo is worse than Mono on this issue.

I think a lot of regular forumers feel the same about this.

Some of the mods seem to think there are major problems with the forum. I think the biggest problem is a lack of leadership, and a bad example set by some of those in a leadership position.

Sorry if this seems harsh, but it needed to be said.

The Muffin Man

Gibberx wrote:

I only heard references to this in Vent while playing CS (I don't really pay attention to chat threads, they move too fast for me). A quick summary of what is going on would be great.

As unbiased as possible(gonna be hard, so bare with me) would be this:

A mod introduces an experimental rule. No 4chan. Massive arguments break out over wether or not this is not only worth it, but really all that important. There seem to be nobody but mods behind the decision.
Eventually, it breaks down and we're told it was an "organic scene"(Experiment, as it seemed to us) but I'm a bit fuzzy on WHAT it was meant to test...

Anyway, there is eventually mod in-fighting, and worry over wether or not mcc(one of the most well-loved mods) getting demodded or not.

Captain K

Muffin Man, can you maybe ask one question at a time or something? And use less words? :P

Conditional_Axe

Captain K wrote:

Short version: sometimes what seems stupid because pretty much everybody is complaining about it is still the right thing to do.

It's been said numerous times that the rule was not what sparked the "drama" (the parentheticals seem condescending), but rather the attitude with which it was delivered.

Isn't one of the things that is good for the long-term a moderator bulllpen that does not engender suspicion and hostility from the userbase?

suttbecks

What is this "rule"? n/m edit

Sanius

deadonthestreet wrote:

apotheos is a bad forumer. He's pretty much a troll. If a regular forumer behaved like him, they'd be in jail constantly, and probably banned.

He nearly never participates in a positive discussion. I don't think that someone that is such a bad forumer should be a leader of the community.

Echo and Mono almost never post. Mono claims to read the forum, and be on IRC a lot. People who are not part of the community should not make decisions on what is best for the community. Echo is worse than Mono on this issue.

I think a lot of regular forumers feel the same about this.

Some of the mods seem to think there are major problems with the forum. I think the biggest problem is a lack of leadership, and a bad example set by some of those in a leadership position.

Sorry if this seems harsh, but it needed to be said.

Echo posts much more then Apo. Daily, even.

The Muffin Man

Captain K wrote:

Muffin Man, can you maybe ask one question at a time or something? And use less words?

STOP OPPRESSING ME!!!
[spoiler:1474f64eed]Heh, sorry. What can I say? I get a chance to be heard without yelling, and I get inexplicably verbose.[/spoiler:1474f64eed]

deadonthestreet wrote:

apotheos is a bad forumer. He's pretty much a troll. If a regular forumer behaved like him, they'd be in jail constantly, and probably banned.

He nearly never participates in a positive discussion. I don't think that someone that is suck a bad forumer should be a leader of the community.

Echo and Mono almost never post. Mono claims to read the forum, and be on IRC a lot. People who are not part of the community should not make decisions on what is best for the community. Echo is worse than Mono on this issue.

I think a lot of regular forumers feel the same about this.

Some of the mods seem to think there are major problems with the forum. I think the biggest problem is a lack of leadership, and a bad example set by some of those in a leadership position.

Sorry if this seems harsh, but it needed to be said.

And I must agree. I mean I know this might as well be painting a target, but I agree with DoTS. We need mods who actually KNOW the community. As much as I opposed it at the time(and I'm still not a fan of him, but not as opposed to him) Captain K WAS an active member of the forum. mcc posts all the time, as does Raijin and Orik. Whereas guys like Mono, Echo, and Apo...shit, I didn't know what forum they modded until I got curious and browsed through the Forum Groups thing. I can stand behind Imran(:winky:) I can stand behind Kilogre(again, :winky:), but I really can't stand behind someone who not only insults us when he DOES post, but trolls us as well and gets away with it.

And you'll be happy to know K: No questions in there

Captain K

Okay, time to address some of the most heinous misinformation:

what happened in the chat thread was not--I repeat, was not--any kind of "experiment" at all. apotheos made a comment that was basically "someday, there will be a rule against this thing that is currently commonplace", and it erupted into the 40 pages that followed. It was completely spontaneous.


apotheos used the word "experiment" for reasons I don't think even he understands. It was a mistake.




For some reason, nobody seems to want to believe this, and I doubt Imran will change his sig based on me just telling you that this is the truth... but it's the truth. I don't know what other words I can use to explain it. No mind games, no experiment, no deadly, sinister motives. Just a poor choice of words in the heat of the moment.

Karf

G&T needs a few more mods.

But thats like saying water is wet.

Kyou

I dont see how driving away regulars can be good for forum longevity.

Der Waffle Mous

ehhh.. Apo and Mono I can understand, I almost never see them.

Echo, though? o_O

Target Practice

Conditional_Axe wrote:

Captain K wrote:

Short version: sometimes what seems stupid because pretty much everybody is complaining about it is still the right thing to do.

It's been said numerous times that the rule was not what sparked the "drama" (the parentheticals seem condescending), but rather the attitude with which it was delivered.

Isn't one of the things that is good for the long-term a moderator bulllpen that does not engender suspicion and hostility from the userbase?

Not to mention the reasoning with which it was delivered.

I.e., "This is a 13+ community".

deadonthestreet

Sanius wrote:

Echo posts much more then Apo. Daily, even.

Recently he has been posting more, it looks like.

I guess I was looking backwards a little.

Apologies to echo.

The Muffin Man

Captain K wrote:

Okay, time to address some of the most heinous misinformation:

what happened in the chat thread was not--I repeat, was not--any kind of "experiment" at all. apotheos made a comment that was basically "someday, there will be a rule against this thing that is currently commonplace", and it erupted into the 40 pages that followed. It was completely spontaneous.


apotheos used the word "experiment" for reasons I don't think even he understands. It was a mistake.




For some reason, nobody seems to want to believe this, and I doubt Imran will change his sig based on me just telling you that this is the truth... but it's the truth. I don't know what other words I can use to explain it. No mind games, no experiment, no deadly, sinister motives. Just a poor choice of words in the heat of the moment.

That doesn't make the idea behind it okay. "Someday something will randomly change and you'll be expected to IMMEDIETLY follow that rule, or else." That's not how you run a forum.

Faricazy

Bottom line: will the Chat Thread remain?

Imran

And if you really feel it necessary to "get something off your chest" in this thread, please at least try to do it in a civil manner.

I'm going to take advantage of this. And there's not really a nice way to say it, but I'll try and be as civil as possible.

I'm not sure how I want to phrase this, so forgive me if it sounds awkward, but there's been an awful lot of condescension and elitism coming from the mods toward the forumers. As in, not in Pheezer's cute little "I'm smarter than you" sort of way, but in a very "You're very much below us because we have a jpg that says m-o-d below our avatars" way.

Whether you want to admit it or not, some of our mods are not necessarily bad mods, but they are awful forumers and completely horrible members of this community. Apotheos has trolled more than any other person I've ever seen in G&T and the only result of it is a smug "So?" attitude from him. If anyone without a mod badge did this, they would constantly be in jail.

Is there any effort to apologize for this? Explain his actions? No, only excuses. Apotheos does some shit in the chat thread and the rest of the mod staff positively rushes to make excuses about it, attempting to paint very different pictures than what actually happened. Hell, as far as I know, Apo might be a great guy. But holy shit, he certainly does not show this as a poster.

But this isn't just about him. The mods as a whole have been perpetuating this "Us vs. Them" mentality for a while now. Do you want to know what G&T mods were most well loved and well respected? mcc and Raijin. They're effective mods without being insufferable pricks, they do their job without needing to throw their weight around. Now that Raijin's resigned, you can understand how there's a lot of uncertainty about the mod staff right now.

You can write it off as "Oh man those forumers are just creating drama again we better not listen because this status quo is so awesome" or, in the much more likely situation, one of the mods will attempt to argue with me by belittiling me and subtly threatening a temp ban. The best thing you can do, as far as real social growth for the community as a whole, is discuss these things in a fair way and not just believing that somehow your badge validates your opinions.

Captain K

As far as Monoxide's and apotheos' forum "activity" go, here's the best I can tell you: when I got modded a few months back and gained access to the mod discussions, I was honestly shocked to see how active apotheos and Mono really are. They don't post in G&T, hit the "lock thread" button or catch spammers as often as some other G&T mods do, but they're definitely around. To be honest, I guess I didn't really feel like they were part of the community before I became privy to the full picture either, but I realized pretty quickly that they're basically always around.

This is another one of those things that you'll just have to trust me on. I can't force you to do it.

Captain K

Kyou wrote:

I dont see how driving away regulars can be good for forum longevity.

I would hope you'd have enough faith in the leadership to not assume that "driving away regulars" would ever be a goal.


Faith in the leadership seems to be in short supply at the moment.

Conditional_Axe

Captain K wrote:

Faith in the leadership seems to be in short supply at the moment.

which is the major issue.

because a lot of us feel that that lack of faith has been earned.

Ashcroft

deadonthestreet wrote:

apotheos is a bad forumer. He's pretty much a troll. If a regular forumer behaved like him, they'd be in jail constantly, and probably banned.

He nearly never participates in a positive discussion. I don't think that someone that is such a bad forumer should be a leader of the community.

Echo and Mono almost never post. Mono claims to read the forum, and be on IRC a lot. People who are not part of the community should not make decisions on what is best for the community. Echo is worse than Mono on this issue.

I think a lot of regular forumers feel the same about this.

Some of the mods seem to think there are major problems with the forum. I think the biggest problem is a lack of leadership, and a bad example set by some of those in a leadership position.

Sorry if this seems harsh, but it needed to be said.

Agreed on all points, particularly the first one. Pheezer is also extremely guilty of acting like that when in G&T, expecially during that whole business the other night. It was rather pathetic to be honest.

deadonthestreet

Captain K wrote:

Faith in the leadership seems to be in short supply at the moment.

I hope that all of the mods will realize that there is a reason for that.

Captain K

The Muffin Man wrote:

That doesn't make the idea behind it okay. "Someday something will randomly change and you'll be expected to IMMEDIETLY follow that rule, or else." That's not how you run a forum.

Some people would actually argue that that is how you run a forum.


I'm not one of those people. And I don't think that's how this forum has ever been run. Just offering food for thought.

404

WHY wrote:

And are our precious chat-threads being threatened?

The Muffin Man wrote:

If our chat thread IS going to go the way of the Dodo, is there a reason why?

Faricazy wrote:

Bottom line: will the Chat Thread remain?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Conditional_Axe

Captain K wrote:

As far as Monoxide's and apotheos' forum "activity" go, here's the best I can tell you: when I got modded a few months back and gained access to the mod discussions, I was honestly shocked to see how active apotheos and Mono really are. They don't post in G&T, hit the "lock thread" button or catch spammers as often as some other G&T mods do, but they're definitely around. To be honest, I guess I didn't really feel like they were part of the community before I became privy to the full picture either, but I realized pretty quickly that they're basically always around.

This is another one of those things that you'll just have to trust me on. I can't force you to do it.

I don't think this addresses some of the stated concerns except to gloss over them.

Captain K

Conditional_Axe wrote:

Captain K wrote:

As far as Monoxide's and apotheos' forum "activity" go, here's the best I can tell you: when I got modded a few months back and gained access to the mod discussions, I was honestly shocked to see how active apotheos and Mono really are. They don't post in G&T, hit the "lock thread" button or catch spammers as often as some other G&T mods do, but they're definitely around. To be honest, I guess I didn't really feel like they were part of the community before I became privy to the full picture either, but I realized pretty quickly that they're basically always around.

This is another one of those things that you'll just have to trust me on. I can't force you to do it.

I don't think this addresses some of the stated concerns except to gloss over them.

I'm a bit swamped here, as this thread is basically me and all of G&T.

I don't say this to patronize--can you just re-ask the specific concerns you're talking about?

Conditional_Axe

Captain K wrote:

Conditional_Axe wrote:

Captain K wrote:

As far as Monoxide's and apotheos' forum "activity" go, here's the best I can tell you: when I got modded a few months back and gained access to the mod discussions, I was honestly shocked to see how active apotheos and Mono really are. They don't post in G&T, hit the "lock thread" button or catch spammers as often as some other G&T mods do, but they're definitely around. To be honest, I guess I didn't really feel like they were part of the community before I became privy to the full picture either, but I realized pretty quickly that they're basically always around.

This is another one of those things that you'll just have to trust me on. I can't force you to do it.

I don't think this addresses some of the stated concerns except to gloss over them.

I'm a bit swamped here, as this thread is basically me and all of G&T.

I don't say this to patronize--can you just re-ask the specific concerns you're talking about?

read the long posts by dots and Imran. They say it better than I could.

Target Practice

Ashcroft wrote:

deadonthestreet wrote:

apotheos is a bad forumer. He's pretty much a troll. If a regular forumer behaved like him, they'd be in jail constantly, and probably banned.

He nearly never participates in a positive discussion. I don't think that someone that is such a bad forumer should be a leader of the community.

Echo and Mono almost never post. Mono claims to read the forum, and be on IRC a lot. People who are not part of the community should not make decisions on what is best for the community. Echo is worse than Mono on this issue.

I think a lot of regular forumers feel the same about this.

Some of the mods seem to think there are major problems with the forum. I think the biggest problem is a lack of leadership, and a bad example set by some of those in a leadership position.

Sorry if this seems harsh, but it needed to be said.

Agreed on all points, particularly the first one. Pheezer is also extremely guilty of acting like that when in G&T, expecially during that whole business the other night. It was rather pathetic to be honest.

While I have no disagreements here, I don't really see as complaining about him here's going to do much good. It's not like K could do anything about it even if he wanted to.

suttbecks

I have no idea what is going on still. Potentially late: Why is Raijin no longer a mod?

Captain K

404 wrote:

WHY wrote:

And are our precious chat-threads being threatened?

The Muffin Man wrote:

If our chat thread IS going to go the way of the Dodo, is there a reason why?

Faricazy wrote:

Bottom line: will the Chat Thread remain?

Inquiring minds want to know.

The future of the chat thread is being discussed, but there's not even anything close to a consensus on that issue. The discussion is basically a nebulous clusterfuck at the moment, so it would be a bad move to even try to summarize it for you.

If the chat thread does end up going away, or changing somehow, you will get ample warning and a lot of explanation. And, if I get my way, a voice in the decision-making process.

deadonthestreet

Target Practice wrote:

While I have no disagreements here, I don't really see as complaining about him here's going to do much good. It's not like K could do anything about it even if he wanted to.

I would hope that he is not the only mod that will read this thread.

Maybe even Whippy will.

Hi Whippy!

Captain K

suttbecks wrote:

I have no idea what is going on still. Potentially late: Why is Raijin no longer a mod?

He resigned.

More complicated than that? A bit, yes... but in essence, he resigned.


I think it's up to Whippy if he wants to elaborate here. I don't want to overstep my bounds (any more than I might be with this thread).