Self Portrait -- Shading help?

Recoil42

So, in redoing my portfolio this year, I went and found this old self portrait that I never finished.. and I decided to finish it, because I already put a good amount of work into it.



I think I need some help with the shading, though. Spefically, I'm having trouble with how flat the face is, and in doing the eyelids -- I've always had problems with both of these. I'm just not sure how to do it / where to go from here. Any tips?

Any prior attempts at shading faces always have me ending up with dark supervillains hiding in shadows, or details so jagged they make the individual look 80 years old, or flat monoshaded freaks of nature.

Eventually, I'll post the rest of the portfolio as I put it together in this thread, but at the moment, this is really bugging me and I want to give it some attention. Help?

TL;DR shading is hard, dudes.

DMAC

It has a really strange look to it. Like you painted over a photo. Some areas like the hairline and the ear seem oddly defined compared to the fuzzy blotchy look of the rest of it.

Recoil42

DMAC wrote: »

It has a really strange look to it. Like you painted over a photo. Some areas like the hairline and the ear seem oddly defined compared to the fuzzy blotchy look of the rest of it.

Heh, the ear is actually why I decided to finish the piece. I spent like an hour on the damn thing.



I'm decently good at detail work like that. But the second you put me in an area where it's a broad curve, like an eyelid, a forehead, cheeks, i fail hard. Hence the thread.

Grifter

Can we see the photo reference?

Recoil42

I'm only using it for pose, not for shading, but:

embarassing reference photo

Fabricate

It looks flat (to me) because of a lack of contrast. There arent any big changes in tone so it looks flat.

Try doing more intense shading

Recoil42

Fabricate wrote: »

It looks flat (to me) because of a lack of contrast. There arent any big changes in tone so it looks flat.

Try doing more intense shading

That much I know. Like I said, I'm just afraid of getting it wrong, and looking like the dark shadow monster from the lagoon.

Scosglen

Well for starters, your reference is awful. The lighting in that photograph has literally been murdered by the camera flash.

If you want this to be a portfolio piece I seriously recommend you scrap the whole thing and start with a photo reference that actually has some lighting for you to bite into and demonstrate your modeling abilities, not to mention at least an iota of thought put into the composition of the image, instead of what is obviously you standing in front of a dorm door taking a flash picture of yourself, which may or may not have even been meant as reference in the first place.

Mustang

Scosglen wrote: »

Well for starters, your reference is awful. The lighting in that photograph has literally been murdered by the camera flash.

If you want this to be a portfolio piece I seriously recommend you scrap the whole thing and start with a photo reference that actually has some lighting for you to bite into and demonstrate your modeling abilities, not to mention at least an iota of thought put into the composition of the image, instead of what is obviously you standing in front of a dorm door taking a flash picture of yourself, which may or may not have even been meant as reference in the first place.

I concur, the image is flat and your painting is flat as a result. If you're painting from reference, it's vital to have a good one.

Kendeathwalker

dont put a self portrait in your portfolio? Unless its a portfolio to get into an art school or something..

Recoil42

Kendeathwalker wrote: »

dont put a self portrait in your portfolio? Unless its a portfolio to get into an art school or something..

It's not. I wasn't planning to, this was done more for the fun of it, but I was considering it. I can see how that would be considered a bad idea. Thanks. I won't then. *shrug*

I mostly work with graphic design and photo editing, sketching/painting itself has always been my weak point, I'm much better with patterns and layouts, user oriented design. So this is really just practice to improve those skills.

I think the mispositioning of the left eye is making the painting look a lot worse than it should be. I take out the left eye altogether, and it looks a lot better. So I'm redoing that whole section. The strange thing is though, I overlayed the reference image onto the painting, and it's perfectly in line. So I'm not sure what's going on. I'll post a picture in a bit.

NakedZergling

dude you totally painted over the photo! it lines up pixel for pixel!
I think you could use that pose and redraw it with your own style/flair, but painting over a pic like this will just give you a creepy air-brushed, weird look.

Recoil42

NakedZergling wrote: »

dude you totally painted over the photo! it lines up pixel for pixel!
I think you could use that pose and redraw it with your own style/flair, but painting over a pic like this will just give you a creepy air-brushed, weird look.

I didn't. I took key points, ie dotted the pupils, rough outline of the nose, chin, and went from there. It isn't painted over, the proportions and 'locations' are just the same.

NakedZergling

Oh come on man. The only spot your shit doesn't line up is the ear and red part of the shirt. the outline is pixel to pixel perfect...you must have one amazing freehand abality to outline the image to the exact pixel.

here's your "painting" imposed 50% opacity over your image......look at the outline. Perfect overlap.
Look if you want to paint over an image, go ahead, but i don't believe for a second that this was only reference.

Sublimus

Well.

I think that settles that.

jibjib

Start with your darkest shades and build up the lights over that. Never "add" shadows with opaque mediums.

Recoil42

Zergling, call it what you like. I'm not denying it's 'helped', but I'll tell you it's not a direct trace, nor was it painted over. I had key points for proportions, that's all. Regardless, this is an exercise in shading for me, not form. So again, call it what you like, I don't really care. I'm not purporting to be an expert in form, nor am I asserting to have done it purely freehand. Quite simply: I don't give a shit. I'm not going to trot out my penis just so you can measure it and later compare it to yours to make yourself feel better.

jibjib wrote: »

Start with your darkest shades and build up the lights over that. Never "add" shadows with opaque mediums.

Thanks. What I'm doing is progressively applying shadows at ~10% fill, ~10-20% opacity over and over again, so I'm not quite working with an opaque medium. As I said, I'm terrible with shading, so I'm just trying to get the general technique of it down. Is a process like that considered 'ok' with a mostly transparent medium like how I'm doing it? Or is it still considered a no-no, and would I be better off adding highlights much more than shadows?

Scosglen

Never say never--although a general rule of thumb that is effective and simple, is to work from general to specific, dark to light.

I kind of want to shake you violently and ask why you're still working from this photo, especially if this is meant to be practice. You can quietly tip-toe around my first post but it doesn't make it less relevant. The only thing you are practicing here is how to render a form lit by a camera flash, or possibly lit by a coal miner's hat in an otherwise medium light hallway. There is an intense directional lightsource emanating from almost the same spot as the point of view.

Without giving you a treatise on optics and drawing a slew of diagrams for you, suffice it to say the only major shadows that are going to be made in this situation are relegated to the very edge of the forms as they curve away from the light, or completely out of view altogether. The interplay between shadow and light is integral to how we perceive form. When you lack too much of one or the other then there is less contrast, and the form simultaneously becomes less interesting and harder to read. If you desaturate your photo you will see that on your face from light to dark masses there is only about a fifth of the entire white to black value spectrum present. This, exacerbated by your general inexperience is why it looks flat. Even if you were a master painter working from this photo you are not going to get a good portrait, or learn much about light. You need to learn how light works, not "how to shade"

I again emplore you to take a new photo or find a new photo to work from, one with the full or nearly full black to white value spectrum on display, with only one or two simple lightsources hitting the subject at a side or top angle--and for your own sake probably one that is in grayscale rather than color.

You will learn orders of magnitude more about light by studying something like this than what you have now.

beavotron

scos speaks much wisdom
I am also going to recommend that you back away from digital mediums while trying to master the tomfoolery that is lighting and shading.
trying to jump right into photoshop without having a lot of experience using good old pencil and paper is like jumping out of an airplane without a parachute.
Probably not as dramatic as that
but my point is, if you really want to get good at this, start off with basic drawing exercises. The issue that you want to tackle is shading and lighting, so set up some inanimate objects on your window sill or in a direct light source and block in the shadows on a line drawing with pencil

NakedZergling

Don't get pissy with me. This is what i can't stand. People who come in here looking for help, but then defend the work they admit is shit, ignore what others tell them, and ultimately never show that they're trying to improve.
Your image has been up here for a few days now, lets just see some other work utalizing the advice you have been given.

Bottom line is photoshop is a monster of a program. You will ALWAYS find about 30 ways to do the same thing. For every person you find who says you should use the smudge/burn/dodge/filters/black you'll find just as many who insist not to. Look up painting in photoshop on youtube or google, you will see literally dozens of different techniques. Many done completely opposite of each other and plenty with amazing results.

So take the advice of the people here, including me (not because i think i have a big cock, or that i'm any better than you) because i've been where you are. Just jump in with the program and try everything. See what works for you and what produces the results you like. post them all here and see what people say.

jibjib

NakedZergling wrote: »

Don't get pissy with me. This is what i can't stand. People who come in here looking for help, but then defend the work they admit is shit, ignore what others tell them, and ultimately never show that they're trying to improve.
Your image has been up here for a few days now, lets just see some other work utalizing the advice you have been given.

Bottom line is photoshop is a monster of a program. You will ALWAYS find about 30 ways to do the same thing. For every person you find who says you should use the smudge/burn/dodge/filters/black you'll find just as many who insist not to. Look up painting in photoshop on youtube or google, you will see literally dozens of different techniques. Many done completely opposite of each other and plenty with amazing results.

So take the advice of the people here, including me (not because i think i have a big cock, or that i'm any better than you) because i've been where you are. Just jump in with the program and try everything. See what works for you and what produces the results you like. post them all here and see what people say.

here here *raises glass*

piL

Also, as stupid as art school terms may be, form is an element, shading isn't. Value is, but the meaning is different. In fact, what "shading" will do for you is describe the form. An exercise in shading is an exercise in form, unless you really want to explore the contrasts of value and this isn't at all about making this not look flat through shading.

Mustang

Also, as stupid as art school terms may be, form is an element, shading isn't. Value is, but the meaning is different. In fact, what "shading" will do for you is describe the form. An exercise in shading is an exercise in form, unless you really want to explore the contrasts of value and this isn't at all about making this not look flat through shading.

This actually makes sense to me....and I find that a little bit frightening.

NakedZergling

anyone thinking i was too harsh on the OP please note; it's been a week. He hasn't updated ANYTHING elsein the form of "art".
OP prove me wrong. Lets see what you have taken away from the advice you have been given,

NakedZergling

2 weeks now...come on bro, show us something!

The Earl

Methinks he might have given up on this particular piece, seeing as how he was looking for tips on where to go from where he left off, and he finds out that he's probably messed up on the first step (choice of reference).

Or...he's gone to find a forum that will tell him it's fucking fantastic and he should keep up the good work.

rts

Well anyways I agree with the others about picking better reference. Attempting something like what you have is pretty advanced. You have to have a good understanding of color temperature to make it work. As far as how you can improve it though? Wel heres one easy one, the whites of the eyes are not white. They will never be white. In a painting I mean. Ever. Or at least they shouldnt be. Unfortunately in painting we are restricted to a smaller range of values than reality is, which means that even if you see something as bright white, you have to knock it back so that you still have your perfect white for a single highlight over the iris or something. In your photo I see one eye as more of a pinkish color and the other as more of a blue-ish grey.

Next would be edgework, but your reference is really impacting what you can do with edges, in any case...I would probably just start a new one.

Sublimus

Hooooray! Let's never let this thread die!! :rotate: :rotate:

/Sarcasm

rts

Eh maybe he will come back someday and see my amazing advice.

Mustang

I'm going to get down on my knees and suck your dick for a little bit here cake, but your advise is always pretty amazing. I take notes on your posts.

rts

Thanks Mustang, it is hard to give real advice or criticism over the internet because you have no sense for what the person is ready or willing to hear. In person you can get a feel for what they are willing to accept or not. I try not to tip toe too much on this forum but I also don't want to get myself kicked off of it because I was a little too hard on someone.

So it's nice to hear that it isn't always hated!