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Turkish court bans Islamic head scarves at universities
Basar
IstanbulRegistered User regular
IstanbulRegistered User regular
# Story Highlights
# NEW: Turkish court upholds ban on head scarves in universities
# Many see the head scarf as an emblem of political Islam
# Islamic-oriented government locked in power struggle with secular groups
# Turkey's chief prosecutor seeking to disband "anti-secular" ruling party
ANKARA, Turkey (AP) -- Turkey's top court has ruled Islamic head scarves cannot be allowed at universities. The decision is a defeat for the Islamic-oriented government, which tried to free the Islamic attire as a matter of religious and personal freedoms.
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/06/05/turkey.scarfs.ap/index.html
Sweeeeeeeeet. A big "FUCK YOU" to the current government of Turkey.
Put it in your tiny brains you frickin radical islamist Osamas! Turkey will always remain secular no matter how hard you try. If you want to live in a country like Saudi Arabia, move there.
Now only if I can get that piece of dogcrap PM to kiss my ass, rest for a while and continue kissing it in an endless cycle.
i live in a country with a batshit crazy president and no, english is not my first language
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Edit: Also, what about people who don't want the wind blowin' their hair?
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Yup. They are the most pro EU party.
Theres nothing wrong with a mildly Islamic party. Remember - All of our parties are at least mildly Christian.
This is not the way to reduce the influence of political Islam.
Also, Christ man, please don't conflate Turkey's political Islam with al-Qaeda.
I think we can all agree that an Islamic state (or a religious state in general) is not a good thing. And Turkey, while secular for now, is facing strong political and social pressure to become an Islamic state. Any measures to resist these pressures are a good thing.
No it isn't but the Turkish military is very powerful, very temperamental and VERY secular, if taking a hit like this prevents them from launching a coup then it’s worth it.
My instinct is no, for the reasons I outlined above. What are the reasons why you think this is successful? (I certainly could be wrong).
Getting the headscarf in would have set a precedent in two ways, in my opinion. First, it would have given a legal foundation for an item in their religious-political agenda - granted, just a symbolic piece of clothing, not anything major, but it's still something they can build on. By banning that, the courts are insuring the religious-political factions can't even get their foot in the door.
And second, if a lot of women on campus wear the headscarf, peer-pressure will set in and push more women to wear the headscarf. And once you get people to accept one, even small, religion rule, it's easier to get them to accept the next one, and then the next one...
But again, that's my instinct, it's not a study I read. And anyway, I need to get to work now, so I won't be around to debate this again until tonight.
The fact that some people who wear headscarves do terrible things has no bearing on whether or not they should be allowed, particularly when there are a number of people who wear them who are not a threat to anyone.
Also, Richy, they're not just insuring religious insitutions can't get their foot in the door, they're ensuring devout Muslim women can't get their foot in the door, which certainly isn't going to make conservative Islam any more liberal. Attacking personal symbols of religion isn't going to change anything, it's just going to make you look like a petty dick.
Fantastic, so we're going to address the problem by ensuring that these oppressed women can't even go to a fucking university.
Clearly this is a well though-out solution.
Probably one of the reasons I became an atheist.
Well—I do think Richy has a valid point. Let's be honest here—Islam is an inherently repressive religion that sees women as temptresses of men, and the headscarf is fundamentally both an acknowledgment and a muzzle on this warped view of femininity. It is not something I would like to see propagate in any country, and there is a danger that the headscarf will become a rallying symbol and a way for Muslims to exert peer pressure on women.
However, compared with the danger of giving Muslims the mantle of "underdog" to rally around, I think it's a wash, and I'd prefer that the country allows freedom of expression.
How does this mean they can't go to university? You do realize that by and large women in Turkey do not wear head scarves right? Now this law may mean that some conservative Muslim women decide not to go to University because they want to wear the head scarves. However I think the question is does the risk and consequences of some that outweigh the risks of social stigma and potential violence that would face the majority of women at these universities if the pressure to wear a head scarf becomes as bad as in some other countries.
Edit: Gallup has some polls here from Turkish women about their thoughts on the head scarves that I think is fairly relevant
Turkey is a fiercely secular place, and ending this ban would have caused a huge shit storm there, a lot of people are scared at the rise of a more political Islam. This situation cannot be compared to say the head scarf controversy in France, and I dont understand why people are saying this is pushing people "to the fringe", or giving extremists "more ammo".
I don't give a shit about the majority of turkish women. I give a shit about the people who are going to affected by the ban because that's what we're discussing.
If headscarves are actually so opressive then something tells me "well just don't wear it" isn't really an option. You know what actually might help though? Giving these women greater power through education. Now where would we do that?
Seriously, it's like saying, "well, you have this terrible disease, but we don't want to treat you because you're disease-ridden."
The only way this can have value, even when stifling expression, is it is the dam that keeps Islamic fundies from taking over the government. This is hard pill to swallow. I wonder if the Turkish really are this inclined towards Islam that a small step would snowball into a theocracy. Does anyone have statistics or figures or anything that can illuminate the subject?
Islam is a religion where half its followers are under severe restriction by the other half, at least when practiced according to fundies. In terms of women, who are the ones wearing the headscarf, it seems rather cynical to believe they would give away their freedoms if allowed, even if it is a expression of faith. If it's a case of peer pressure, I'm not sure if a ban is the right way to deal with this. Maybe a public education campaign?
In any event, we are not talking about primary/high schools here. Weren't colleges bastions of liberty?
Let me give you an example of pressure.
My lady cousin is a 24 year old lightly religious secular Turk. She graduated from the Mimar Sinan Arts college, which is about the best college one can go for arts. Her speciality is ceramics. Fortunately for her (at least we thought), Turkish government owns a couple ceramics businesses. These are known worldwide and a career in one these is very desirable. Well, unfortunately for her, even though she graduated with the highest GPA in her class, and several internships, none of these government businesses even returned her applications. Not even an interview. The reason? From the government official's mouth: "Young lady, if you want at least a chance for an interview, you better change that photo on your resume to a one with a headscarve." o_O Fuckin assholes. She had similar responses from any government job she applied to.
I hope one day we will outlaw headscarves all together.
Women can attend university with a headscarve in Iran. I am toally with you on the greatness that has achieved in the past 30 or so years. More power to women? You kidding me, right?
In a Democracy, it would seem totally proper to forbid the mandatory wearing of a religious symbol. For a democracy to forbid wearing a religious symbol at all seems...inappropriate.
Yes, there are external (well, internal to the country, external to the courts) pressures causing this, but the way a democracy would traditionally want to deal with this kid of situation is to uphold everyone's rights, and try to do something about the pressures themselves.
It could be the court is completely correct with this ruling according to the laws and charter of rights of the country (if such a thing exists in Turkey), but regardless of the legality, you've just given your opponents a large weapon to say "Look at the government oppressing my religion", "The government isn't a real democracy", "This can't be allowed, we need change".
As Elki pointed out, the EU won't be looking kindly on this kind of decision, either.
Turkey has stopped caring about getting into the EU a long time ago.
Well, the general populace has, anyway. Because they understand it for what it really is: a carrot on a stick.
Also, everything Richy said. He put it more elaborately than I would have.
Not for colleges. In elementary and high school no religious wear/necklaces are allowed.
I also think this is stupid.