I enjoy Lil Wayne because his stupid lyrics are entertaining, in fact I always thought that was why hip hop fans liked him; his lyrics are unintentionally hilarious. But it's becoming more clear to me that serious hip hop fans actually think of him as a genuine lyricist. It will forever be a mystery to me as to why anyone would have that opinion.
Best thing Tupac did, in my opinion, was the verse he dropped at the end of Digital Underground's 'Same Song', where he pulled off a complex rhyming structure without impairing the lyrics in only 8 bars (Tupac comes in at 4:34):
Songs a classic in general, and highlights why Shock G was one of the greatest of all time- #6 on my list.
If you dont know much about Shock G, he rapped both as himself, as an ordinary early 90's ghetto rapper (the first rapper in this song) but also in the persona of Humpty Hump, a flamboyant trickster with a fake nose(the second rapper in this song), most famous for 'The Humpty Dance'. Both rappers are the same person, but both are completely distinct even within the same song.
Nothing Shock G ever did on the mic was that great. He was a better producer than a rapper. He's not bad, but he's nowhere near top 10. Hell, he wasn't even the best rapper in Digital Underground. That would be Money B. As a matter of fact, I'd have a hard time putting Shock on a list of the top 10 *Bay Area* rappers ever, much less top 10 all-time.
And Pac's structure in that song is kinda basic, actually. I do love the song, though.
Here's basically how I can sum up what I think of Wayne:
Lets say I'm really good at drawing stuff. Like, my technical artistic skills are up there, I'm just damn good at it. Now, let's say the only thing I draw is pictures of dongs. They're really well-done pictures of dongs, but that's all I do. Can I really be called a great artist?
That's Wayne. He can rap well, but all he raps about is the same generic stuff over and over again. Money and bitches and how awesome he is. I can't say I've heard everything he's ever done, but I have heard quite a bit of songs by him, and I have yet to hear a single track that is meaningful in any way. I don't mind non-meaningful songs, but anyone who can't use their talents to produce something that isn't just about how dope you are doesn't deserve to be called a truly great rapper in my book. Wayne strikes me as someone who's all flash, no substance. More concerned with showing how clever he is than being an artist.
Pac may not be among the most technically skilled rappers ever, but his skills were very solid, and he was able to use those skills to create a collection of music that had depth and variety to it. For that reason I easily see him as the better hip-hop artist.
Firstly, putting a rap song up against 'lollipop' is ridiculous: its a pop song not a rap song. If we're comparing pop songs, pull up Tupacs lyrics on 'California love'
Only dont. The quote you've extracted is a good example of everything thats wrong with Tupac: it contains no wordplay whatsoever: everything is dead literal. Theres not a single metaphor, no allusions, or rhyming techniques like alliteration or assonance. The tone is typical Tupac: maudlin and sad. Tupac never joked.
Compare that to any decent Wayne joint, which are pregnant with references. Take, for example, 'I'm me', in which Wayne compares himself within a minute to Satan, God, Kevin Fedeline, Led Zeppelin, a scud missile, mel gibson, and then finishes with a typically hilarious boast:
Lets go, Niggas doubt wont see me cuz I'm better and bold
The only time I will depend is when I'm 70 years old
Thats when I cant hold my shit within, so I shit on myself
Cuz I'm so sick and tired of shitting on errybody else
Never in his life could Tupac write anything that well, and even though the quote you've extracted might be 'deeper' in meaning, its constructed less skillfully.
You can't be serious.
My thoughts exactly.
And not just Tupac, you know how many times Depends has been used almost exactly like this?
Redman never gets enough credit. C'mon, "I've been low key since Richie Cunningham was Opie." Seriously now.
"I got a list, here's the order of my list that it's in,
it goes Reggie, Jay-Z, 2pac and Biggie, Andre from
Outkast, Jada, Kurupt, Nas and then Me" - eminem
Not agreeing or disagreeing with the list, but I like the nod to Redman.
2pac had an intense presence in no matter what he did including the mic. That's part of the reason why he was larger than life. It was everything he brought to the table.
I like weezy alot. I think lately he has used autotune a bit much and has somewhat gone easy on the mic. Not exactly worse but its different from Da Drought 3 times. But I don't blame the guy, if you can crap out a jam and fuck around and have fun. Go for it.
I just found out about this J. Cole kid and he can rhyme his ass off
I'm so sorry I didn't give J. Cole a chance, even when you replied to me (different topic, but w/e, still replied, >.<)
But yes, I just downloaded J. Cole's "The Warm Up" and I haven't stopped listening to it since. For some reason, Drake doesn't do it for me, but J. Cole is insane.
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CrayonSleeps in the wrong bed.TejasRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
I'm sorry, even as someone who rides wayne's nizzos I have to fully admit that 2Pac>Weezy. So yeah, sorry to burst your bubble Djinn but you are so very wrong.
Forget the Wayne angle, I'm tired of fighting that battle for now. I would argue that Tupac does not belong in the widely accepted pantheon of great rappers.
I think some people put him there because he is earnest and thoughtful. And also because he had a dark, self-pitiful vision of himself as a martyr that, ironically, came true.
But he was not great at the mechanics of rapping. he used repetitive phrasing, which placed a big emphasis on the last two syllables of every line like Ex. "Even though I SELL ROCKS / It feels good puttin' money in ya MAIL BOX." Short, bragging lines that rhyme only at the end, no figurative language other than simile-simile-simile (compare that to Biggie or Rakim who had flair for internal rhyme). Also, I can't think of one time he rhymed two words or phrases together in a way that struck me as clever or original. Can anyone?
All he had was a compelling persona. Maybe that counts for something.
I dunno, I have always liked his verses in 'How Do U Want It.'
Tell me is it cool to fuck?
Did you think I come to talk am I a fool or what?
Positions on the floor it's like erotic
ironic cause I'm somewhat psychotic
I'm hittin switches on bitches like I been fixed with hydraulics
Up and down like a roller coaster, I'm up inside ya
I ain't quittin til the show is over, cause I'ma ridah
In and out just like a robbery, I'll probably be a freak
and let you get on top of me, get her rockin these
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
At night I can't sleep, count thief'
As they pass through the glass of my neighbors, five deep
Starin' at the wall, heard a scream
Wake up in the morning, see the blood in the hall from the murder scene
I think you're getting hung up on certain rap aspects. You're quoting Dear Mama, so are you saying that Dear Mama isn't a great song? because that'd be easy to disagree with.
I can understand saying he isn't the best rapper of all time, but the guy is in the elite class.
What's the criteria we are going by? If you are talking about fame, or influence, then a lot of those lists make sense. Nevertheless, if we are talking about who the best rappers are on the basis of their rapping ability the list completely changes. Unfortunately, it is often the case that great rapping and success are mutually exclusive, and one has to make compromises. There might be a few exceptions in regards to artists who haven't had to make that compromise. Some might put Biggie and Wayne in that category. But if we are talking about raw rapping ability, as in, the mastery of the art of rap, Wayne doesn't cut it. He is just deep enough that people go "Ohhhhh snap! Did you hear that?!" but he ain't all that. I ask my friends what they like about him, why is the best? And they cite his lyrics. Check out this metaphor, check out this play on words.
But get this, if that is something you appreciate, then there are many artists that do this much better. Give me Wayne's best lyrics, and I'll smash them with anything by Lupe Fiasco.
Tupac does not belong in the widely accepted pantheon of great rappers.
I think he's in there in the way that Cobain is in the accepted pantheon of great rockers, there isn't anything about the music that is technically important, but it changed things.
Tupac is an important rapper, and he is also iconic to the genre, but yes, I will agree that technically speaking he is not anywhere in the 10-20 greatest rappers when speaking about speed, structure and annunciation, but that's hardly everything there is to it.
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Anyone heard of B.O.B. or Bobby Ray? He's quite new and different. Listen to "I'll be in the sky', or 'lonely people'. As to this whole debate about best rappers going on, I'm not getting into it.
Also, I can't think of one time he rhymed two words or phrases together in a way that struck me as clever or original. Can anyone? .
This alcohol increases the chance to be deceased
I'm moving you stupid bitches with vicious telekinesis
And that's just one that popped into my head instantly.
Furthermore, I think the Cobain comparison is pretty apt. Nirvana were never technically flashy, and even among grunge, a pretty simple genre to begin with, they weren't really the best, but they were iconic as fuck, and they changed the face of the musical landscape. Persona is as important as anything else in hip-hop, and the whole thug/poet thing that 2Pac was on did a lot to legitimize gangsta rap in people's eyes.
In fact, that's one of my favorite things about 2Pac: his inherent contradictions. He was a drama kid and wrote poetry, but also projected the tough thug image at the same time. He could jump back and forth from a socially conscious song like "Keep Ya Head Up" to brutal murder rap like "Can't C Me" in a way that seems contradictory, but he pulls them both off convincingly. Nas kinda worked with a similar dichotomy but his "gangsta" songs were never as successful as his "street poet" cuts, at least IMO.
Anyone heard of B.O.B. or Bobby Ray? He's quite new and different. Listen to "I'll be in the sky', or 'lonely people'. As to this whole debate about best rappers going on, I'm not getting into it.
I've loved B.O.B. since I saw him open for Talib. Really fresh, uncommercial-but-not-"indie" ATL shit.
My favorite track is Lupe Fiasco's "Failure" from the Farhrenheit1/15 part 1. So deep with meaning and for a mix tape single, was and still is one of the most herald tracks by Lupe fans today.
Failure is phenomenal :^: Food and Liquor is so much better with tracks like Failure added, and the OG version of Kick, Push II, and his Dead Presidents II verse etc etc.
Your analysis is good here, but I'd disagree with this last point. Wayne IS talented, very much so, he's just not complex. He's a one-trick pony, but he's damn good at that one trick.
Here's basically how I can sum up what I think of Wayne:
Lets say I'm really good at drawing stuff. Like, my technical artistic skills are up there, I'm just damn good at it. Now, let's say the only thing I draw is pictures of dongs. They're really well-done pictures of dongs, but that's all I do. Can I really be called a great artist?
That's Wayne. He can rap well, but all he raps about is the same generic stuff over and over again. Money and bitches and how awesome he is. I can't say I've heard everything he's ever done, but I have heard quite a bit of songs by him, and I have yet to hear a single track that is meaningful in any way. I don't mind non-meaningful songs, but anyone who can't use their talents to produce something that isn't just about how dope you are doesn't deserve to be called a truly great rapper in my book. Wayne strikes me as someone who's all flash, no substance. More concerned with showing how clever he is than being an artist.
Pac may not be among the most technically skilled rappers ever, but his skills were very solid, and he was able to use those skills to create a collection of music that had depth and variety to it. For that reason I easily see him as the better hip-hop artist.
This sums it up. :^: I'd disagree that
anyone who can't use their talents to produce something that isn't just about how dope you are doesn't deserve to be called a truly great rapper in my book.
but otherwise the above is on point as hell.
On the tupac angle, I honestly haven't listened to most of his stuff. Like Wayne he's an artist I recognize as very skilled yet don't really listen to. I always preferred BIG to Pac, even though I realize Pac is by far the better rounded artist, and probably way more deserving of GOAT status objectively. Subjectively? No contest. I haven't bumped any Pac album the way I did Ready to Die or even that Bed Stuy Meets Blue Eyes tape.
I just found out about this J. Cole kid and he can rhyme his ass off
I'm so sorry I didn't give J. Cole a chance, even when you replied to me (different topic, but w/e, still replied, >.<)
But yes, I just downloaded J. Cole's "The Warm Up" and I haven't stopped listening to it since. For some reason, Drake doesn't do it for me, but J. Cole is insane.
This man has seen the light. Check out J. Cole, yall, the kid can fuckin SPIT. Drake can spit too (check the Barry Bonds or Asthma freestyles if you don't believe me) and thats the kind of stuff I prefer from him, but J.Cole is even better.
As for top acts of the 00s? thats really tough..
Brother Ali has to be up there.
Lupe is another obvious one.
Slaughterhouse?
oh and we've all seen THIS right? http://www.jamphat.com/rap/
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CrayonSleeps in the wrong bed.TejasRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
The best thing Lupe has ever done is Failure, which is kind of odd considering that's not even on his two major releases.
Anywho, if I'm making a personal top 10 list then this is it. This is taking into account personal flavor, those who changed the game, raw talent, and everything under the sun...but mostly personal opinion.
10) Weezy
9) The Game
8) Phonte from Little Brother (this could be because I know him and grew up with their live shows considering I'm from NC).
7) Juelz Santana (personal opinion)
6) 2Pac
5) Rakim
4) Run DMC (I have to do it as a whole because I really don't think independently any of them really stand out...but together they bridged a gap, and made damn fine party music that was also insanely relevant)
3) Chuck D
2) Freestyle Fellowship (once again, as a whole. So much damn talent in there, Abstract Rude and Aceyalone to name a few)
1) Biggie
I know I've left a lot out, and left them out for various reasons. But these are the top 10 in a personal taste test considering they are probably the most I listen to, and to me that is what makes a top 10 list.
Yeesh. The personal taste list get's Bay heavy, and really doesn't represent the wide spectrum of rap I like. I just like the Bay shit the best.
1. E-40
2. Too Short
3. Keak the Sneak
4. Mac Dre
5. MF DOOM
6. Ras Kass
7. Luniz (really just Operation Stackola, but that album still get's constant play.)
8. Scarface
9. Jay-Z
10. X-Raided
I feel bad that Pac isn't on there, but honestly he hasn't been in the rotation as much the last few years. I'm sure at some point he'll work his way back up there though.
I really feel you could drop X-Raided and slide Pac in there pretty easily. X-Raided was maybe one of the worst artists on Black Market.
Lynch Hung and Andre Nickatina have a case for being on a Bay Area top 10, too. Same with Mac Mall. And Rappin 4-Tay.
As a matter of fact, back when Andre was just Dre Dog, "Smoke Dope and Rap" back to back with "Had 2 Gatcha" by Brotha Lynch would just effortlessly MURDER parties. Slide from that into some RBL Posse "3,2,1" and something was gonna get broke.
Raided get's in there for me because he comes at it from such a different perspective than other rappers. Other cat's talk about jail and have made albums from jail, but he's been locked up since he was, what, like 17? And I get the impression he's not getting out. When he comes off honestly about different aspects of his situation it's something fairly unique in the game. The production post Unforgiven is awful though. I based my list off who I felt I 'd listened to the most the last couple years, seemed like the easiest way to make those tough decisions fairly.
For whatever reason I never really felt Dre Dog the way others seem to, I don't think he's bad, he just rarely get's me excited about what he's doing. I do indeed grin though whenever I hear that line "I smoke chewy like a muthafuckin nut" because that's the start of a damn fine track.
Which brings up another good question. What would be your top ten tracks? I'll have to think on it myself for a bit but I can easily see artists in my top ten not being represented in my top ten track listing.
Edit : I damn near forgot, my lil' bro kicked me Jay Stay Paid a few days ago, Dilla is the bomb indeed. Mmmm....Donuts.
Been thinking about the rap hit of the decade. Talking specifically about the most emblematic, iconic, influential song, rather than my favorite or 'the best' one or whatever.
Way I see it, 00's pop music is divided broadly into two halves. The first few years was still very influenced by Timbaland's revolutionary production from the late 90's. Rap was wierd, it could be anything: we had indian samples, suburban rock rap, doubletime tempo's etc. Thinking about shit like 'Big Pimpin', 'Get Ur Freak On', 'I Luv U', 'Country Grammar'. But the standout from this period, for me, is Outkast's 'Hey Ya'.
Not only was it just a fucking great song, it defined how pop music was going to work in this decade. It was the first wierd, producer-driven pop song that doesnt really fit into any genre, paving the way for shit like 'Feel Good Inc', 'Single Ladies', 'Crazy' or 'Paper Planes.'
And it made Andre 3K the first of many artists who define themselves as hip-hop artists, but musically straddle many genres: Kanye West, Gnarls Barkley, Missy Elliott, M.I.A., Neptunes, Black Eyed Peas, Justin Timberlake.
In the second half of the decade, 00's music started to sound like something new instead of an extension of the 90's. This came ~2003 with Lil Jon's 'Get Low', although the effects of this song would take a couple of years to ripple out. It was the beginning of the atlanta sound taking over pop music: the domination of 808's, big stomping 4/4 beats and huge ravesynths. 'Get Low' was the beginning but the moment of real takeover was Usher's 'Yeah'. This set the stage for all of snap music, T.I., Flo Rida, Chris Brown, T-pain, Soulja Boy, Lil Wayne's pop turn, etc.
I don't know if this would really count as Rap but I'm listening to J Dilla's Donuts for the umpteenth time and yeah everyone needs to go listen to it
If you like Dilla Donuts get Jay Stay Paid. It's a lot of the Dilla donuts stuff as well as other unreleased beats he's made all put together by pete rock. It's also got doom and a bunch of other artists that rap over it. Good stuff I say.
Could the pro-Lil Wayne crowd link some of his stuff that is considered good? The stuff that I have heard has really made me think that some of my acquaintances aren't to be trusted.
One of them just told me that he would like to see Lil Wayne have a rap battle with KRS-One as he believes Lil Wayne would win "as he is rated the number one MC of the moment." By whom I couldn't get out of him. All I take from this statement is that my friend is at best insane.
I don't know if this would really count as Rap but I'm listening to J Dilla's Donuts for the umpteenth time and yeah everyone needs to go listen to it
The problem with "Donuts" is that if you listen to another album after it, that's a tough act to follow. Then the other album sounds sort of crass and mediocre in comparison. It seems unfair.
desc on
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TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
KungFu your associate may in fact have been smoking the cough syrup
Could the pro-Lil Wayne crowd link some of his stuff that is considered good? The stuff that I have heard has really made me think that some of my acquaintances aren't to be trusted.
I tell em float on, and go on, to the ozone, im so gone, my blunt like a polan, got prolong, and hold on to it like a trambone, im so blown, and um i got that cock back i dont need that thumb bone, so come on
And when I was 5, my favorite movie was the gremlins
(Aint got shit to do with this, but I just thought that I should mention),
You looking for divine and the little intervention,
And them birds don't fly, without my permission,
I'm probably in the sky, flying with the fishes,
Or maybe in the ocean, swimming with the pigeons,
See my world is different,
Like Dwayne Wayne,
And if you want trouble, bitch, I want the same thing
Boy im more cooler than a fan and a mint,
And when im done this track will need a couple bandages,
I be wit savages and im above average,
Im a crazy ass star like a fuckin asterick
And if the read dot spot him then the hollow head got him
no religion but the cops swear that I'm a drug lord
Father forgive em' for they know not who they pushing lord
Father forgive me if I have to send them to ya lord
I'm just trying to dodge the shots they send to the god
They riding up highway to heaven boulevard
Theres moment of brilliance all over the place, but the peak is 'The Carter II', 'The Drought III', and 'Dedication II'. Sadly, the drugs that pushed these albums into brilliance have over time deteriorated his brain and made him a worse rapper, and you can see it on 'The Carter III' to the point where one of my few favorite songs ("tie my hands") was recorded 2 years before the album was released.
And I love the bleakness and sparseness of that beat. Sounds like a clipse song, but with better rapping:
'FOURTEEN 350s
AROUND THE CLOCK POP AROUND THE BLOCK
AROUND THE WHOLE CIRCUMFERENCE
IN ABUNDANCE FEAR LIKE TED BUNDY
BOUNCE BACK LIKE BUNGEES
THROWN AWAY LIKE SPONGEES'
Breaks my that ppl will ignore this to bump shit like Asher Roth or refried eminem.
Hey Djinn, tell quik and kurupt you want your cut off that mp3 sale. Really, really into that beat. It's the opposite of the blubber larding up most hip hop I hear lately.
Whats funny is that of the DPG ( Dogg Pound Gangstas of Death Row Fame) is that Daz gets more publicity, where Kurupt actually is the more gifted lyricist of the group.
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CrayonSleeps in the wrong bed.TejasRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
Except Clipse are two of the best rappers in the game, and have been for quite a while. Kurupt ain't got shit on them. Although I may be biased here because I've hung out with them quite a bit when they came through Austin on tour.
fair point crayon. clipse are one of this decade's greats, and shouldnt be dismissed out of hand. More intersting than 'who is better' is the connections between them. clipse > kurupt (any others?) represent some kind of undercurrent within urban hip-hop, influenced by grime but still distinct from it, that goes against the grain of pop-friendly chorus rap over 808's.
1)Nas
2)big pun
3)biggie
4) jadakiss
5) fabolous
6) jay-z
7) Eminem
8) Mos Def (i just pretend he passed away right after black on both sides)
9) Dead prez
10) Andre 3000
And if arguing about lil wayne is the cool thing to do then "lil wayne sucks!"
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Posts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mnm0FILNb5M
Songs a classic in general, and highlights why Shock G was one of the greatest of all time- #6 on my list.
If you dont know much about Shock G, he rapped both as himself, as an ordinary early 90's ghetto rapper (the first rapper in this song) but also in the persona of Humpty Hump, a flamboyant trickster with a fake nose(the second rapper in this song), most famous for 'The Humpty Dance'. Both rappers are the same person, but both are completely distinct even within the same song.
Need more suggestions for rap hit of the 00's.
And Pac's structure in that song is kinda basic, actually. I do love the song, though.
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Lets say I'm really good at drawing stuff. Like, my technical artistic skills are up there, I'm just damn good at it. Now, let's say the only thing I draw is pictures of dongs. They're really well-done pictures of dongs, but that's all I do. Can I really be called a great artist?
That's Wayne. He can rap well, but all he raps about is the same generic stuff over and over again. Money and bitches and how awesome he is. I can't say I've heard everything he's ever done, but I have heard quite a bit of songs by him, and I have yet to hear a single track that is meaningful in any way. I don't mind non-meaningful songs, but anyone who can't use their talents to produce something that isn't just about how dope you are doesn't deserve to be called a truly great rapper in my book. Wayne strikes me as someone who's all flash, no substance. More concerned with showing how clever he is than being an artist.
Pac may not be among the most technically skilled rappers ever, but his skills were very solid, and he was able to use those skills to create a collection of music that had depth and variety to it. For that reason I easily see him as the better hip-hop artist.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
My thoughts exactly.
And not just Tupac, you know how many times Depends has been used almost exactly like this?
My Portfolio Site
"I got a list, here's the order of my list that it's in,
it goes Reggie, Jay-Z, 2pac and Biggie, Andre from
Outkast, Jada, Kurupt, Nas and then Me" - eminem
Not agreeing or disagreeing with the list, but I like the nod to Redman.
2pac had an intense presence in no matter what he did including the mic. That's part of the reason why he was larger than life. It was everything he brought to the table.
I like weezy alot. I think lately he has used autotune a bit much and has somewhat gone easy on the mic. Not exactly worse but its different from Da Drought 3 times. But I don't blame the guy, if you can crap out a jam and fuck around and have fun. Go for it.
I'm so sorry I didn't give J. Cole a chance, even when you replied to me (different topic, but w/e, still replied, >.<)
But yes, I just downloaded J. Cole's "The Warm Up" and I haven't stopped listening to it since. For some reason, Drake doesn't do it for me, but J. Cole is insane.
I think some people put him there because he is earnest and thoughtful. And also because he had a dark, self-pitiful vision of himself as a martyr that, ironically, came true.
But he was not great at the mechanics of rapping. he used repetitive phrasing, which placed a big emphasis on the last two syllables of every line like Ex. "Even though I SELL ROCKS / It feels good puttin' money in ya MAIL BOX." Short, bragging lines that rhyme only at the end, no figurative language other than simile-simile-simile (compare that to Biggie or Rakim who had flair for internal rhyme). Also, I can't think of one time he rhymed two words or phrases together in a way that struck me as clever or original. Can anyone?
All he had was a compelling persona. Maybe that counts for something.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
As they pass through the glass of my neighbors, five deep
Starin' at the wall, heard a scream
Wake up in the morning, see the blood in the hall from the murder scene
I can understand saying he isn't the best rapper of all time, but the guy is in the elite class.
But get this, if that is something you appreciate, then there are many artists that do this much better. Give me Wayne's best lyrics, and I'll smash them with anything by Lupe Fiasco.
I think he's in there in the way that Cobain is in the accepted pantheon of great rockers, there isn't anything about the music that is technically important, but it changed things.
Tupac is an important rapper, and he is also iconic to the genre, but yes, I will agree that technically speaking he is not anywhere in the 10-20 greatest rappers when speaking about speed, structure and annunciation, but that's hardly everything there is to it.
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This alcohol increases the chance to be deceased
I'm moving you stupid bitches with vicious telekinesis
And that's just one that popped into my head instantly.
Furthermore, I think the Cobain comparison is pretty apt. Nirvana were never technically flashy, and even among grunge, a pretty simple genre to begin with, they weren't really the best, but they were iconic as fuck, and they changed the face of the musical landscape. Persona is as important as anything else in hip-hop, and the whole thug/poet thing that 2Pac was on did a lot to legitimize gangsta rap in people's eyes.
In fact, that's one of my favorite things about 2Pac: his inherent contradictions. He was a drama kid and wrote poetry, but also projected the tough thug image at the same time. He could jump back and forth from a socially conscious song like "Keep Ya Head Up" to brutal murder rap like "Can't C Me" in a way that seems contradictory, but he pulls them both off convincingly. Nas kinda worked with a similar dichotomy but his "gangsta" songs were never as successful as his "street poet" cuts, at least IMO.
I've loved B.O.B. since I saw him open for Talib. Really fresh, uncommercial-but-not-"indie" ATL shit.
Failure is phenomenal :^: Food and Liquor is so much better with tracks like Failure added, and the OG version of Kick, Push II, and his Dead Presidents II verse etc etc.
The Lupe love in here is 8-) The Cool is easily my favorite song off that album; everything about it is just awesome.
Your analysis is good here, but I'd disagree with this last point. Wayne IS talented, very much so, he's just not complex. He's a one-trick pony, but he's damn good at that one trick.
This sums it up. :^: I'd disagree that but otherwise the above is on point as hell.
On the tupac angle, I honestly haven't listened to most of his stuff. Like Wayne he's an artist I recognize as very skilled yet don't really listen to. I always preferred BIG to Pac, even though I realize Pac is by far the better rounded artist, and probably way more deserving of GOAT status objectively. Subjectively? No contest. I haven't bumped any Pac album the way I did Ready to Die or even that Bed Stuy Meets Blue Eyes tape.
This man has seen the light.
As for top acts of the 00s? thats really tough..
Brother Ali has to be up there.
Lupe is another obvious one.
Slaughterhouse?
oh and we've all seen THIS right? http://www.jamphat.com/rap/
Anywho, if I'm making a personal top 10 list then this is it. This is taking into account personal flavor, those who changed the game, raw talent, and everything under the sun...but mostly personal opinion.
10) Weezy
9) The Game
8) Phonte from Little Brother (this could be because I know him and grew up with their live shows considering I'm from NC).
7) Juelz Santana (personal opinion)
6) 2Pac
5) Rakim
4) Run DMC (I have to do it as a whole because I really don't think independently any of them really stand out...but together they bridged a gap, and made damn fine party music that was also insanely relevant)
3) Chuck D
2) Freestyle Fellowship (once again, as a whole. So much damn talent in there, Abstract Rude and Aceyalone to name a few)
1) Biggie
I know I've left a lot out, and left them out for various reasons. But these are the top 10 in a personal taste test considering they are probably the most I listen to, and to me that is what makes a top 10 list.
2)Ghostface
3)Andre 3000(seriously how has no one mentioned him)
4)GZA
5)Talib Kweli
6)Common
7)Mos Def
8)Raekwon
9)Lupe Fiasco
10)Q-Tip
So in other news... it's about damn time and holy shit I can't wait to get my hands on this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8YlfYpnXL0
This CD is going to kick all sorts of ass.
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1. E-40
2. Too Short
3. Keak the Sneak
4. Mac Dre
5. MF DOOM
6. Ras Kass
7. Luniz (really just Operation Stackola, but that album still get's constant play.)
8. Scarface
9. Jay-Z
10. X-Raided
I feel bad that Pac isn't on there, but honestly he hasn't been in the rotation as much the last few years. I'm sure at some point he'll work his way back up there though.
Lynch Hung and Andre Nickatina have a case for being on a Bay Area top 10, too. Same with Mac Mall. And Rappin 4-Tay.
As a matter of fact, back when Andre was just Dre Dog, "Smoke Dope and Rap" back to back with "Had 2 Gatcha" by Brotha Lynch would just effortlessly MURDER parties. Slide from that into some RBL Posse "3,2,1" and something was gonna get broke.
Geek: Remixed - A Decade's worth of ruined pop culture memories
Xbox Live - Fatboy PDX
For whatever reason I never really felt Dre Dog the way others seem to, I don't think he's bad, he just rarely get's me excited about what he's doing. I do indeed grin though whenever I hear that line "I smoke chewy like a muthafuckin nut" because that's the start of a damn fine track.
Which brings up another good question. What would be your top ten tracks? I'll have to think on it myself for a bit but I can easily see artists in my top ten not being represented in my top ten track listing.
Edit : I damn near forgot, my lil' bro kicked me Jay Stay Paid a few days ago, Dilla is the bomb indeed. Mmmm....Donuts.
Been thinking about the rap hit of the decade. Talking specifically about the most emblematic, iconic, influential song, rather than my favorite or 'the best' one or whatever.
Way I see it, 00's pop music is divided broadly into two halves. The first few years was still very influenced by Timbaland's revolutionary production from the late 90's. Rap was wierd, it could be anything: we had indian samples, suburban rock rap, doubletime tempo's etc. Thinking about shit like 'Big Pimpin', 'Get Ur Freak On', 'I Luv U', 'Country Grammar'. But the standout from this period, for me, is Outkast's 'Hey Ya'.
Not only was it just a fucking great song, it defined how pop music was going to work in this decade. It was the first wierd, producer-driven pop song that doesnt really fit into any genre, paving the way for shit like 'Feel Good Inc', 'Single Ladies', 'Crazy' or 'Paper Planes.'
And it made Andre 3K the first of many artists who define themselves as hip-hop artists, but musically straddle many genres: Kanye West, Gnarls Barkley, Missy Elliott, M.I.A., Neptunes, Black Eyed Peas, Justin Timberlake.
In the second half of the decade, 00's music started to sound like something new instead of an extension of the 90's. This came ~2003 with Lil Jon's 'Get Low', although the effects of this song would take a couple of years to ripple out. It was the beginning of the atlanta sound taking over pop music: the domination of 808's, big stomping 4/4 beats and huge ravesynths. 'Get Low' was the beginning but the moment of real takeover was Usher's 'Yeah'. This set the stage for all of snap music, T.I., Flo Rida, Chris Brown, T-pain, Soulja Boy, Lil Wayne's pop turn, etc.
If you like Dilla Donuts get Jay Stay Paid. It's a lot of the Dilla donuts stuff as well as other unreleased beats he's made all put together by pete rock. It's also got doom and a bunch of other artists that rap over it. Good stuff I say.
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One of them just told me that he would like to see Lil Wayne have a rap battle with KRS-One as he believes Lil Wayne would win "as he is rated the number one MC of the moment." By whom I couldn't get out of him. All I take from this statement is that my friend is at best insane.
PS - More KRS-One love up in this thread.
The problem with "Donuts" is that if you listen to another album after it, that's a tough act to follow. Then the other album sounds sort of crass and mediocre in comparison. It seems unfair.
Just a couple:
La La La
I Feel Like Dying
Scarface
I tell em float on, and go on, to the ozone, im so gone, my blunt like a polan, got prolong, and hold on to it like a trambone, im so blown, and um i got that cock back i dont need that thumb bone, so come on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZErwE29v7ss
And when I was 5, my favorite movie was the gremlins
(Aint got shit to do with this, but I just thought that I should mention),
You looking for divine and the little intervention,
And them birds don't fly, without my permission,
I'm probably in the sky, flying with the fishes,
Or maybe in the ocean, swimming with the pigeons,
See my world is different,
Like Dwayne Wayne,
And if you want trouble, bitch, I want the same thing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCRGaPvFE84
Boy im more cooler than a fan and a mint,
And when im done this track will need a couple bandages,
I be wit savages and im above average,
Im a crazy ass star like a fuckin asterick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3osvFMFXhWI
And if the read dot spot him then the hollow head got him
no religion but the cops swear that I'm a drug lord
Father forgive em' for they know not who they pushing lord
Father forgive me if I have to send them to ya lord
I'm just trying to dodge the shots they send to the god
They riding up highway to heaven boulevard
Theres moment of brilliance all over the place, but the peak is 'The Carter II', 'The Drought III', and 'Dedication II'. Sadly, the drugs that pushed these albums into brilliance have over time deteriorated his brain and made him a worse rapper, and you can see it on 'The Carter III' to the point where one of my few favorite songs ("tie my hands") was recorded 2 years before the album was released.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHe18yE2kXM
Kurupt's rap is so structured, but in an unorthadox way: its moving in cycles:
stopwatchhadtoletitwatchclocksflockinginflocksstopjustseeyapopswatchillbetherewhenitSTOPS
And I love the bleakness and sparseness of that beat. Sounds like a clipse song, but with better rapping:
'FOURTEEN 350s
AROUND THE CLOCK POP AROUND THE BLOCK
AROUND THE WHOLE CIRCUMFERENCE
IN ABUNDANCE FEAR LIKE TED BUNDY
BOUNCE BACK LIKE BUNGEES
THROWN AWAY LIKE SPONGEES'
Breaks my
And the fact that Hell Hath No Fury is one of the best albums '00 and on.
1)Nas
2)big pun
3)biggie
4) jadakiss
5) fabolous
6) jay-z
7) Eminem
8) Mos Def (i just pretend he passed away right after black on both sides)
9) Dead prez
10) Andre 3000
And if arguing about lil wayne is the cool thing to do then "lil wayne sucks!"
If the president had any real power, he'd be able to live wherever the fuck he wanted.