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How bad is the DRM in Bioshock (PC)?

135

Posts

  • RakaiRakai Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Please read over the thread next time. It has already been posted that Bioshock devs plan to remove the authentication in the future although no time line has been set. And in 23 years compatibility is probably going to be a far bigger issue in getting it to run than authentication.

    Rakai on
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  • Grizzly_AddamsGrizzly_Addams Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2008
    Rakai wrote: »
    Please read over the thread next time. It has already been posted that Bioshock devs plan to remove the authentication in the future although no time line has been set. And in 23 years compatibility is probably going to be a far bigger issue in getting it to run than authentication.

    Virtual Machine software just like I use to play the games I bought a dozen years ago? Commander Keen on disc.

    All I'm saying is if I pay for a hard copy of this software not only should there be no limitation on how many uses or for how long I can use it, but there definitely should not be software in it that alters the way my computer or its software will function for me.

    And as for your "being patched out" thing? Well I suppose I could go through the trouble of downloading all the patches and saving a hardcopy of them along with my game.

    Finally, all this DRM, especially the intrusive stuff, is pointless. Anyone who was going to acquire the game illegally in the first place, probably can still do so on zero day with little trouble, SANS DRM, so all it's doing is inconveniencing the loyal paying customers. Pirates are not the cancer that's "killing" PC gaming. Integrated video chipsets are.

    Grizzly_Addams on
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  • LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Bump.


    2K games have now removed the DRM from Bioshock.


    Quick everyone! Now we can pirate it! [/sarcasm]

    LewieP on
  • taliosfalcontaliosfalcon Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Cool, i'm pretty sure i'd lost around 3 of my activations due to reformats and just forgetting to uninstall it (because it was bloody stupid)

    taliosfalcon on
    steam xbox - adeptpenguin
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    LewieP wrote: »
    Bump.


    2K games have now removed the DRM from Bioshock.


    Quick everyone! Now we can pirate it! [/sarcasm]

    Quick everyone! Now our previously non-functional game, which was horribly crippled by those evil suits in a completely ineffectual bid to make some money off of their product, will finally install and run! It's about time! [/sarcasm]

    TychoCelchuuu on
  • GrimReaperGrimReaper Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    New just in!

    Satan has been spotted ice skating to work.

    EDIT:

    It's not been removed, just the limited activations have.
    Our other methods of copy protection remain. You will still have to activate your copy, and you will still need to keep the disc in the drive. SecuROM has not been removed -- just the activation limits on number of installs and number of computers you can install BioShock on simultaneously.

    GrimReaper on
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  • Lord JezoLord Jezo Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    So now all they need to do is get rid of SecuROM but it doesn't look like they plan on doing that. But I suppose this is better than nothing.

    Too bad the $15 sale from last week is long gone.

    Lord Jezo on
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  • RookRook Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Our other methods of copy protection remain. You will still have to activate your copy, and you will still need to keep the disc in the drive. SecuROM has not been removed -- just the activation limits on number of installs and number of computers you can install BioShock on simultaneously.

    As I promised that the activation limits would go away, I can promise that if we ever stop supporting BioShock in the ways you speak of, we will release a patch so that the game is still playable. I believe, as you seem to, that BioShock will be the kind of game we will want to revisit 5, 10, 15 or more years from now. I want my copy to be playable, just as you do, and so does 2K.

    Rook on
  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    edited June 2008
    LewieP wrote: »
    I'm really not getting into this argument again, we've all heard it a million times before.

    I just think that if a game's DRM is ever an inconvenience to a legitimate consumer, they have a right (maybe even obligation) to circumvent that DRM.

    No, they have a right to not buy the product.

    Tube on
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    So, I can still play my NES carts if I have my old NES, but in 23 years I won't be able to play that classic PC game Bioshock that I had, because I already installed it 5 times.

    Of course by that time, Bioshock will probably be in a compilation disc on whatever monstrosity of a console exists then.

    Ugh...Not if you actually call service like you're told to if you want installations back. As already pointed out, if the authentication goes belly up, the devs are going to patch it out of the game.

    Because thats going to be the first thing on their mind years from now.

    JohnDoe on
  • Lord JezoLord Jezo Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    JohnDoe wrote: »
    So, I can still play my NES carts if I have my old NES, but in 23 years I won't be able to play that classic PC game Bioshock that I had, because I already installed it 5 times.

    Of course by that time, Bioshock will probably be in a compilation disc on whatever monstrosity of a console exists then.

    Ugh...Not if you actually call service like you're told to if you want installations back. As already pointed out, if the authentication goes belly up, the devs are going to patch it out of the game.

    Because thats going to be the first thing on their mind years from now.

    This is also dependent on the idea that the information contained in the patch to remove the protection will always be available. As we know by looking at history things eventually get lost in time, like the origin of the Pyramids. The patch will eventually be misplaced and no one will be able to play the game again.

    Lord Jezo on
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  • RookRook Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Lord Jezo wrote: »
    JohnDoe wrote: »
    So, I can still play my NES carts if I have my old NES, but in 23 years I won't be able to play that classic PC game Bioshock that I had, because I already installed it 5 times.

    Of course by that time, Bioshock will probably be in a compilation disc on whatever monstrosity of a console exists then.

    Ugh...Not if you actually call service like you're told to if you want installations back. As already pointed out, if the authentication goes belly up, the devs are going to patch it out of the game.

    Because thats going to be the first thing on their mind years from now.

    This is also dependent on the idea that the information contained in the patch to remove the protection will always be available. As we know by looking at history things eventually get lost in time, like the origin of the Pyramids. The patch will eventually be misplaced and no one will be able to play the game again.

    If I can still patch the original retail version of SiN, I don't think we need to worry about the new patch going missing.

    Rook on
  • LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    LewieP wrote: »
    I'm really not getting into this argument again, we've all heard it a million times before.

    I just think that if a game's DRM is ever an inconvenience to a legitimate consumer, they have a right (maybe even obligation) to circumvent that DRM.

    No, they have a right to not buy the product.

    Or that.

    But that assumes that the publisher gives an accurate description of the DRM on the box/on retailers listings for the game. Which they don't.

    LewieP on
  • WillethWilleth Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    They do when you install the game. There is a licensing agreement that you agree to that contains all of this stuff. You don't like it, don't install it. When you do, you agree to everything.

    You'll run into trouble if you don't agree and then try and return it, though. Actually, now that I think about it, surely that's a reason for a class-action suit againt retailers like GAME, who refuse to take back PC games?

    Willeth on
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  • LewiePLewieP Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Willeth wrote: »
    They do when you install the game. There is a licensing agreement that you agree to that contains all of this stuff. You don't like it, don't install it. When you do, you agree to everything.

    You'll run into trouble if you don't agree and then try and return it, though. Actually, now that I think about it, surely that's a reason for a class-action suit againt retailers like GAME, who refuse to take back PC games?
    I believe their defence is that you should have to contact the publisher. I remember a guy managed to get a refund off Microsoft for a bundled copy of windows he got from Dell, he documented the entire process, and included screenshots and video of him declining the EULA.

    LewieP on
  • RookRook Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Willeth wrote: »
    They do when you install the game. There is a licensing agreement that you agree to that contains all of this stuff. You don't like it, don't install it. When you do, you agree to everything.

    You'll run into trouble if you don't agree and then try and return it, though. Actually, now that I think about it, surely that's a reason for a class-action suit againt retailers like GAME, who refuse to take back PC games?

    Err, why? Maybe the publishers if they don't have the full terms and conditions available but Game only have to provide statutory consumer rights. And unless the product is broken or defective then they don't have to take back the game.

    edit: bah

    Rook on
  • WillethWilleth Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Fair enough.

    Willeth on
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  • BretzyBretzy Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Don't worry about the DRM anymore, as it has been removed.

    http://kotaku.com/5018151/bioshock-pcs-drm-gone

    Bretzy on
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  • KajustaKajusta Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Bretzy wrote: »
    Don't worry about the DRM anymore, as it has been removed.

    http://kotaku.com/5018151/bioshock-pcs-drm-gone

    Did you even read this page?

    Kajusta on
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  • ZellZell Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Yeah, they say they'll completely remove the DRM sometime in the future, a point in time where they might not have incentive to care. Personally, I don't like too much having to depend on companies who might no longer have a reason to give you a no-DRM patch to actually play the game you've paid for.

    That and I hate internet activations, as if the activation server is up or not isn't something I can control, if I have a disc to insert or not is. I really don't see what people think is so horrible about inserting a disc, I do miss the times when some of the content could actually be kept and loaded from disc though.

    Also, I like 2K's timing of removing the activation limit, good to see they're being reasonable, I just don't trust all companies to be once this kind of shitty DRM gets more common.

    Zell on
  • NevaNeva Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    It's weird that the only people that have a problem with Bioshock's DRM are people that don't even own the game.

    Neva on
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    "Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
  • ZellZell Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Hey, I own the game. My activation limits (were) up though.

    Zell on
  • NevaNeva Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Zell wrote: »
    Hey, I own the game. My activation limits (were) up though.

    Should probably contact them, then.

    Neva on
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    "Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
  • ZellZell Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Uh, unnecessary hassle to play a game I own, which is why I think the DRM is shit. Not that it matters now, with the activation limit removed.

    Zell on
  • NevaNeva Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Well it was a necessary hassle if you wanted to play the game. Just because you bought something doesn't mean it has to play by your rules. It's their product and you agree to their terms when you installed it. It isn't even that big of a deal in the first place. Of for some strange reason you had to install the game multiple times, all that was needed was a quick ring-a-ding and you could install the game over and over again some more.

    Neva on
    SC2 Beta: Neva.ling

    "Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
  • ZellZell Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Well it was a necessary hassle if you wanted to play the game. Just because you bought something doesn't mean it has to play by your rules.
    I'm still entitled to complain that it's not though. Especially considering the pirates they're trying to fight with this are the ones who aren't having any problems.
    It isn't even that big of a deal in the first place.
    When a majority of my games start requiring me to do this, it will be. I probably will be avoiding DRMed games from now anyway, but still.

    Zell on
  • urahonkyurahonky Cynical Old Man Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    That sucks that you'll be avoiding DRMed games. You'll be missing out on some good ones.

    urahonky on
  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    I'm not a huge fan of the DRM myself (I experienced it with Mass Effect).

    I simply couldn't install the game because my DVD drive is also a burner and SecuROM apparently doesn't like that (confirmed it via the tech forums).

    Yeah, fuck that noise.

    Derrick on
    Steam and CFN: Enexemander
  • NevaNeva Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Zell wrote: »
    Well it was a necessary hassle if you wanted to play the game. Just because you bought something doesn't mean it has to play by your rules.
    I'm still entitled to complain that it's not though. Especially considering the pirates they're trying to fight with this are the ones who aren't having any problems.
    It isn't even that big of a deal in the first place.
    When a majority of my games start requiring me to do this, it will be. I probably will be avoiding DRMed games from now anyway, but still.

    I didn't have any problems. In fact, I got the game on day one and still haven't had any problems. You know why? I didn't reinstall the game 10 times. If I did.... Well... I just don't know what I would of done!

    Actually, I do. I would of contacted them. I'm having a hard time imaging someone installing a 6GB game multiple times, but then be so apathetic to not go through a phone call that would take a fraction of the install time to go through.

    Neva on
    SC2 Beta: Neva.ling

    "Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
  • ZellZell Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    urahonky wrote: »
    That sucks that you'll be avoiding DRMed games. You'll be missing out on some good ones.
    Maybe, maybe not, but I still wouldn't want to be spending money supporting something I hate.

    Neva: oh great for you, you never had problems, tons of people, me included were perfectly fine with StarForce too.

    Zell on
  • AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    LewieP wrote: »
    If DRM like that in Bioshock ever prevents me from playing a game I have legally bought I will be downloading it with or without permission of the copyright holder.
    This.

    And by the way, you guys all know there's a world you can go to, a world of game copying, that has cracks for disabling the DRM and CD checks, right? Because I definitely go there and get a crack every time, regardless of whether I have a legit copy of the game. Fuck having to put the CD in.

    From the pirate's point of view DRM is a fucking joke, I've never met a game that can't somehow be played for free, so if you as a legitimate customer are finding that you have trouble with anti-piracy measures, I don't know what's stopping you from disabling those measures. Apart from some silly, paranoid notion that you might get "caught" doing it and be sued. Which won't ever happen.

    Really though the best way around all of this is to buy the games off Steam. No CD checks, no DRM, just a painless online check whenever you run the game. Plus they're usually about 10 bucks cheaper.

    Azio on
  • urahonkyurahonky Cynical Old Man Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Derrick wrote: »
    I'm not a huge fan of the DRM myself (I experienced it with Mass Effect).

    I simply couldn't install the game because my DVD drive is also a burner and SecuROM apparently doesn't like that (confirmed it via the tech forums).

    Yeah, fuck that noise.

    Yeah I had this issue with Crysis. It would try and load the game, but click for about 30 minutes then finally load. Which was really annoying to me. Even did it when I turned on my PC and the computer tried to read it as a bootable DVD.

    But that didn't stop me from playing through the game.

    urahonky on
  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    urahonky wrote: »
    Derrick wrote: »
    I'm not a huge fan of the DRM myself (I experienced it with Mass Effect).

    I simply couldn't install the game because my DVD drive is also a burner and SecuROM apparently doesn't like that (confirmed it via the tech forums).

    Yeah, fuck that noise.

    Yeah I had this issue with Crysis. It would try and load the game, but click for about 30 minutes then finally load. Which was really annoying to me. Even did it when I turned on my PC and the computer tried to read it as a bootable DVD.

    But that didn't stop me from playing through the game.

    I didn't let it stop me either, but it was damn annoying and in my opinion, quite a step too far.

    It's one thing to try to protect software, it's another thing to try to tell me what kind of hardware I can have in my rig.

    Derrick on
    Steam and CFN: Enexemander
  • NevaNeva Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Zell wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    That sucks that you'll be avoiding DRMed games. You'll be missing out on some good ones.
    Maybe, maybe not, but I still wouldn't want to be spending money supporting something I hate.

    Neva: oh great for you, you never had problems, tons of people, me included were perfectly fine with StarForce too.

    Your problem was that you ran out of activations. StarForce's problem, among other things, was that it destroyed hardware. One of these could be fixed with a 5 minute phone call.

    Neva on
    SC2 Beta: Neva.ling

    "Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
  • ZellZell Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Neva wrote: »
    Zell wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    That sucks that you'll be avoiding DRMed games. You'll be missing out on some good ones.
    Maybe, maybe not, but I still wouldn't want to be spending money supporting something I hate.

    Neva: oh great for you, you never had problems, tons of people, me included were perfectly fine with StarForce too.

    Your problem was that you ran out of activations. StarForce's problem, among other things, was that it destroyed hardware. One of these could be fixed with a 5 minute phone call.
    I'm saying, you have no problems with SecuROM, that's perfectly fine, but that doesn't mean others aren't allowed to. Personally, I had no problem with StarForce either, as I have no burner it can damage, and IIRC it didn't damage the actual hardware anyway. I don't go arguing against people who do have a problem with it though.

    Zell on
  • NevaNeva Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Zell wrote: »
    Neva wrote: »
    Zell wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    That sucks that you'll be avoiding DRMed games. You'll be missing out on some good ones.
    Maybe, maybe not, but I still wouldn't want to be spending money supporting something I hate.

    Neva: oh great for you, you never had problems, tons of people, me included were perfectly fine with StarForce too.

    Your problem was that you ran out of activations. StarForce's problem, among other things, was that it destroyed hardware. One of these could be fixed with a 5 minute phone call.
    I'm saying, you have no problems with SecuROM, that's perfectly fine, but that doesn't mean others aren't allowed to. Personally, I had no problem with StarForce either, as I have no burner it can damage, and IIRC it didn't damage the actual hardware anyway. I don't go arguing against people who do have a problem with it though.

    Ok, here's my issue. Starforce problems and your activation problems aren't nearly close to each other in scale. All you had to do was call, and it would of been fixed within minutes. Starforce fucked up hardware. If your problem was that Bioshock fried your DVD drive or something because of DRM, then I would be sympathetic to your plight.

    Neva on
    SC2 Beta: Neva.ling

    "Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
  • ZellZell Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Uh, I didn't ask you to be sympathetic, I just said it was a problem to me, and not a problem to pirates. I'm pretty sure the StarForce CD burner problem didn't happen often and was fixable by changing a Windows setting, which takes less than five minutes to change, anyway.

    Zell on
  • NevaNeva Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Zell wrote: »
    Uh, I didn't ask you to be sympathetic, I just said it was a problem to me, and not a problem to pirates. I'm pretty sure the StarForce CD burner problem didn't happen often and was fixable by changing a Windows setting, which takes less than five minutes to change, anyway.

    No, it wasn't rare and wasn't as simple as changing a few Windows settings. In fact, Starforce offered a reward for anyone who could fly to their HQ and recreate the hardware killing problem on their PCs, or something of the likes. Don't remember what happened with that one.

    Since you have every "right" to complain about such a non-issue, I have every right to belittle you. Seriously, look at the situation. You have to reinstall a 6GB game multiple times before your problem would come up. A single 6GB install takes awhile, and that's if you have the DVD. If you used Steam, then factor how long it would take you to re download that game every time you went to reinstall. So far, you'd have ended up spending an hour and a half up to 10+ hours {depending on if you download, download speed, and so on}. Is a 5 minutes phone call really a problem after that? Is it such a problem that you swear off all games using a similar system? If you say yes, I have every right to call you crazy.

    Neva on
    SC2 Beta: Neva.ling

    "Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
  • DietarySupplementDietarySupplement Still not approved by the FDA Dublin, OHRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Zell wrote: »
    Hey, I own the game. My activation limits (were) up though.

    Bioshock hasn't even been out for a year. You felt the need/had the need to install it more than... what was the limit... 5 installs?

    Explain how that's 2K's issue. Or explain why you can't pick up the phone and call them.

    And to everyone who feels empowered enough to say that any time a game hassles you that you have the right of a consumer to circumvent said hassles by (illegally) patching the game, you need to stop. The internet isn't Sherwood fucking Forest, software publishers are not the Sheriff of Nottingham, and you certainly are not Robin Hood.

    DietarySupplement on
  • ZellZell Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    OS upgrade, hardware upgrade, oh shits bad idea to buy nvidia motherboard, new motherboard upgrade, installing on a second computer, etc. Stuff happens.
    Explain how that's 2K's issue. Or explain why you can't pick up the phone and call them.
    Because I don't want to? Besides, I have no clue how much it would cost to call from Norway, nor would I want to practice my spoken English, I really doubt they have a support division in every area.

    I didn't say it was 2K's issue, but the topic is if BioShock's DRM is bad, and I'm saying I think it is. I'm hoping EA and 2K will lose customers over this so it will be their issue though, but I know that is way optimistic.
    And to everyone who feels empowered enough to say that any time a game hassles you that you have the right of a consumer to circumvent said hassles by (illegally) patching the game
    At least I didn't do this.

    Zell on
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