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Intra-forum relations.

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Posts

  • PikaPuffPikaPuff Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Oooh I missed a lot.

    edit- sooo much. I'm going to talk before reading the posts which will probably make me look stupid.

    the main reason I started this discussion is having two gamertag groups cuts the population of each down, and they die off quicker.

    which devolves to me abloo blooing that only one other person was playing MGO this whole weekend.

    as for all the new posts, what's been said already I agree with and the topic was going in circles, so I stopped posting and went to sleep. These new posts are probably the same but I'll read them when I get the time.

    drez, I don't want the gnt chat thread back. I'm fine with se. but I do love to whine about it and make a whine thread about the gnt chat thread whenever tube makes a whining forum. outside of the whine forum, i try not to mention it at all.

    PikaPuff on
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  • TheFid2TheFid2 Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Wow, this is still going on almost two years later?

    On one hand, I do miss hanging out here primarily, but I think things worked out for the best.

    The cool thing about the internet is that you can talk to your friends anywhere. And you can even talk to them in multiple places at once. Shit, I know a bunch of us as 360a still at least lurk here and chime in when we have something to say. It really isn't a big deal to set up a little side forum.

    Stop whining.

    TheFid2 on
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  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    wow these conversations are still going on?

    In any case:
    Ramius wrote: »
    We frankly don't view it as within our mission to grow or nurture social circles within the on-topic subforums, nor to make sure that every social circle has a hangout place on the forums. If you make friends here and you want to shoot-the-shit with them, do it off-board. Unless you and your friends want to join or are already part of the larger-community of shit-shooters in SE++. Then you can shoot-the-shit on-board, in SE++. This is the design of the penny-arcade forums. It is a design that some people passionately disagree with. Generally, when we encounter those people, we invite them to find a forum that is more suitable to them.
    Ramius, you have always seemed like a great guy but this paragraph is full of crazy.

    Just because it's not the mission of the on-topic forums not to grow or nurture social circles doesn't mean you guys need to actively try to prevent them from forming.

    The only other thing I'll comment on is your last sentence which is basically you saying get off of these forums, that's pretty fucked up right there.

    I'm thinking about buying a PS3, yesterday I went over here to try and talk about PS3s in general with people in G&T, since I bet a lot of people in that forum own PS3s!, but unfortunately things were still the same, there still is no general PS3 thread, and instead I had to post in the MGS4 thread, which doesn't even make sense, I got maybe 2 replies then got bottom paged, then the topics went back to MGS4 (which makes sense, it's the thread for that game after all).

    That had nothing to do with trying to make friends, it had to do with trying to talk about games and systems, and the forum rules basically actively prevented me from doing that.

    Hardtarget on
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  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited June 2008
    jothki wrote: »
    Not asking for it back, just whining about how it was handled. I either understand or don't feel qualified to judge all of the reasons for getting rid of it. As someone who mostly stayed out of it other than occasionally asking a question or two that wasn't worth making a thread over (and therefore admittedly has no idea if it was as bad as is commonly claimed), it felt like the community as a whole was losing something without much evidence that what we gained from the change would make up for it. The policy was fine, I just disliked the PR.

    Do you routinely say, go into restaurants and complain to the current manager that a year before he was the manager you got bad service from the previous manager? If so what are you hoping to achieve by said complaint?

    Tube on
    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited June 2008
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    The only other thing I'll comment on is your last sentence which is basically you saying get off of these forums, that's pretty fucked up right there.

    What he's saying is that if you don't like the forums you are welcome to find one more to your taste, a sentiment I heartily agree with.

    Tube on
    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
  • PikaPuffPikaPuff Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    current gnt says youd make a new thread for that. if you were in SE it might have went better posting in their mgs4 thread.

    PikaPuff on
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  • RamiusRamius Joined: July 19, 2000 Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited June 2008
    We absolutely do actively prevent the formation of sub-communities within our on-topic forums. Why is that crazy? If a bunch of G&T forumers thought it would be fun to have a Caturday thread in G&T all of a sudden, we should just allow that? And then they decide to have a youTube thread too, and maybe a thread about that new movie and a thread about the opposite sex and the sexing-thereof...

    Look, we moderate our on-topic forums to fit a mold that we've decided is what we want that forum to be about. And anyone who is not OK with that is given an alternative, SE++. And anyone who is not OK with that is asked to leave. Why is that fucked up? We don't want people making CAT threads in G&T. Why is that crazy?

    Ramius on
  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Ramius wrote: »
    We absolutely do actively prevent the formation of sub-communities within our on-topic forums. Why is that crazy? If a bunch of G&T forumers thought it would be fun to have a Caturday thread in G&T all of a sudden, we should just allow that? And then they decide to have a youTube thread too, and maybe a thread about that new movie and a thread about the opposite sex and the sexing-thereof...

    Look, we moderate our on-topic forums to fit a mold that we've decided is what we want that forum to be about. And anyone who is not OK with that is given an alternative, SE++. And anyone who is not OK with that is asked to leave. Why is that fucked up? We don't want people making CAT threads in G&T. Why is that crazy?

    I totally see your point, I never ever ever had a issue with you guys getting rid of the G&T chat threads, they were terrible threads, and new people felt threatened in them.

    My issue was that you grouped the system megathreads and the chat threads together and got rid of both of them in one fell swoop for the same reason.

    The system megathreads can be super helpful, I really could use one right now regarding a PS3, and it is really sad that there isn't one and I can't bounce questions about the console off of people who own it and like talking about it.

    Hardtarget on
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  • Minus_83Minus_83 Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2008
    wait the chat threads are gone? I HATED those things.

    I guess I can finally start posting again now that they're gone, they made me feel segregated and sad, and also lonely, and unwelcome.

    keep up the good work!

    Minus_83 on
  • RamiusRamius Joined: July 19, 2000 Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited June 2008
    I don't like megathreads. I don't think CT likes them either. So again, same as Cat threads, we don't see a place for them in G&T.

    Looking at your posts from yesterday, I don't see how your expectations weren't met in the MGS thread, although you were kinda tangential posting about getting a PS3 in an MGS thread, even though you were looking to get the MGS bundle.

    Why don't you make a new topic in G&T and call it whatever it is that you are hoping to talk about. I'm not even clear what topic you have in mind, did you want advice on whether you should just get the 40GB instead of holding out for the 80? Were you looking for feedback on whether or not you should get the bundle because it is such a good price, or if you should just buy the console since you got the fiance green-light?

    Ramius on
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited June 2008
    SE also got the majority of their megathreads kicked to the curb.

    Tube on
    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Ramius wrote: »
    We absolutely do actively prevent the formation of sub-communities within our on-topic forums. Why is that crazy? If a bunch of G&T forumers thought it would be fun to have a Caturday thread in G&T all of a sudden, we should just allow that? And then they decide to have a youTube thread too, and maybe a thread about that new movie and a thread about the opposite sex and the sexing-thereof...

    Look, we moderate our on-topic forums to fit a mold that we've decided is what we want that forum to be about. And anyone who is not OK with that is given an alternative, SE++. And anyone who is not OK with that is asked to leave. Why is that fucked up? We don't want people making CAT threads in G&T. Why is that crazy?

    I totally see your point, I never ever ever had a issue with you guys getting rid of the G&T chat threads, they were terrible threads, and new people felt threatened in them.

    My issue was that you grouped the system megathreads and the chat threads together and got rid of both of them in one fell swoop for the same reason.

    The system megathreads can be super helpful, I really could use one right now regarding a PS3, and it is really sad that there isn't one and I can't bounce questions about the console off of people who own it and like talking about it.

    Kind of a bad example, there's one on the third page right now. http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=55136

    G&T does have a bit of a problem with asking little questions, though, especially about older games. Most of the threads about games tend to have elaborate OPs, making starting a thread just to ask a single question feel awkward. Since there's no megathreads to shove those kinds of questions in, we could probably benefit from becoming more comfortable with smaller threads like that.

    It isn't like those kinds of questions wouldn't be answered, it just feels weird right now to start a thread just to ask them.

    jothki on
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited June 2008
    I routinely make threads in G&T that consist entirely of "--- is a pretty fun game" with content consisting of "it has cars in and you can do fighting"

    Tube on
    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    I was wondering if somebody was gonna actually look at my posts. I didn't really do a full fledged post since I knew it was the MGS thread and it was most likely gonna get trampled away anyways.

    I can totally make a "PS3 Bundle thread - any left in the wild / what's your experiences with them"

    but that is basically the start of a ps3 thread and I figured it would be frowned on.

    I understand you and tube don't like megathreads but I think some people never really got closure on it because it was rolled into the banning of the chat threads. Personally I don't care that much, I mostly post on 360a now with a touch of PA every now and again, and it just so happened that I saw this thread today and happened to be looking for a 1 stop shop ps3 thread last night.

    (with that said, just because you guys don't "like" something doesn't mean there necessarily needs to be a policy again it, I'm sure you don't like dumb people, but there is no "no dumb people are allowed to post rule", I mean look at what Minus just posted)

    edit - also I'm not saying SE is worse or better, and I get that SE got their megathreads taken away to, I'm not making comparisons. Hell I used to post on SE all the fuckign time before i sort of migrated over to G&T back in the day. I'm more commenting than anything else, I'm not actually expecting any sort of changes

    Hardtarget on
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  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    I was wondering if somebody was gonna actually look at my posts. I didn't really do a full fledged post since I knew it was the MGS thread and it was most likely gonna get trampled away anyways.

    I can totally make a "PS3 Bundle thread - any left in the wild / what's your experiences with them"

    but that is basically the start of a ps3 thread and I figured it would be frowned on.

    I understand you and tube don't like megathreads but I think some people never really got closure on it because it was rolled into the banning of the chat threads. Personally I don't care that much, I mostly post on 360a now with a touch of PA every now and again, and it just so happened that I saw this thread today and happened to be looking for a 1 stop shop ps3 thread last night.

    (with that said, just because you guys don't "like" something doesn't mean there necessarily needs to be a policy again it, I'm sure you don't like dumb people, but there is no "no dumb people are allowed to post rule", I mean look at what Minus just posted)

    That thread would have gone like this:
    #1: maek thread
    #2: Question answered
    #3: Maybe some pages about the topic
    #4: Thread dies a natural death

    Why would it morph into a PS3 thread? The history of question threads does not match this scenario.

    MKR on
  • RamiusRamius Joined: July 19, 2000 Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited June 2008
    I don't see the difference between a cat thread and a megathread. They are both types of threads. Just because a megathread can be about gaming doesn't mean it is more reasonable to allow it. We would frown on a "cats dressed up to look like videogame characters" thread, too.

    We actively discourage the types of threads that we don't want. This is a policy based in 1) our vision and 2) our experience. Smaller communities like 360a can allow all types of threads at once, and still not be overwhelmed. We don't have that luxury. We need to be a bit more strict for the sake of the greater good.

    Ramius on
  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    ya that makes sense, I never saw problems with the specific console megathreads (although I guess only ever posted in the 360 one, and it was a nice and welcoming thread) so I'm not privey to any behind the scenes details.

    Actually if anything I'm impressed you guys actually replied to me, I appreciate it.

    Hardtarget on
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  • PikaPuffPikaPuff Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    system threads come and go all the time. gnt has its own stigma that we need to fix where people like hardtarget areafraid to make system threads because of the megathread thing.

    you make a thread about your one topic about the system, it goes through its paces and is finished.

    my guess is that megathreads needs something to do between questions which is when they get chatty. so no moree megas.

    you shouldnt be afraid to make a new thread, no mater what the attenntion: forum thread implies. heh

    PikaPuff on
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  • RamiusRamius Joined: July 19, 2000 Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited June 2008
    So I'm not crazy and fucked up anymore?

    Yay!

    Ramius on
  • PikaPuffPikaPuff Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    ok im typing way too slow with this phone.

    PikaPuff on
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  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Ramius wrote: »
    So I'm not crazy and fucked up anymore?

    Yay!

    oh I think you're crazy for not liking the 360a megathread (it was a nice place) and it's a fucked up idea to tell your forum audience to go post in other forums, but I'll take what I can get.

    Hardtarget on
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  • valhalla130valhalla130 13 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Actually if anything I'm impressed you guys actually replied to me, I appreciate it.

    Suck up. :P

    valhalla130 on
  • PikaPuffPikaPuff Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    pa is like a hot woman. when they got that many takers, they're allowed to pick and choose

    PikaPuff on
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  • valhalla130valhalla130 13 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    PikaPuff wrote: »
    pa is like a hot woman. when they got that many takers, they're allowed to pick and choose

    And they don't give a damn how they let you know either.

    valhalla130 on
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    PikaPuff wrote: »
    system threads come and go all the time. gnt has its own stigma that we need to fix where people like hardtarget areafraid to make system threads because of the megathread thing.

    The greatest system thread ever was DS: NSFW (Not Safe For Wallets).

    That thread is why my DS collection is the largest out of all my systems.

    DarkPrimus on
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    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Ramius wrote: »
    So I'm not crazy and fucked up anymore?

    Yay!

    oh I think you're crazy for not liking the 360a megathread (it was a nice place) and it's a fucked up idea to tell your forum audience to go post in other forums, but I'll take what I can get.

    He's not telling "his forum audience" to "go post in other forums." He's setting up boundaries of acceptable behavior. The "forum audience" are the people that can exist within that forum behavior. The rest are infidels!

    Seriously, though, the logical extension of all this is that if you cannot behave or do not want to behave within those boundaries, you do not have to post on this forum. Other forums exist, so the next logical jump is to suggest that said people post on one of these forums that do not have the same boundaries that this one does. All these logical jumps are pretty self-evident, so Ramius saying something akin to "you can go post on other forums" is actually a favor and not fucked up at all - he's just reminding you that other forums exist. Whether or not you post on them is up to you, but this particular forum has boundaries. (Well, all forums do, to some degree.)

    When a security guard has a problem with you shoplifting from his store, he doesn't say "well, Best Buy is half a mile down the road..." He just kicks you out. Or arrests you. So by comparison, Ramius is being rather nice about it. And I don't remember him telling anyone not to post here. I remember a fuckload of people walking off in a huff and a puff to one or two splinter forums (I'm not referring to 360 Arcadians, by the way). I mean, Best Buy has rules, and so does this and every other forum. They are, after all, privately owned despite the public nature of a forum.

    Yeah, I realize the irony in my posting this.

    Drez on
  • TheFid2TheFid2 Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Ramius, what the hell do you have against cats? What have they ever done to you?

    TheFid2 on
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  • Moe FwackyMoe Fwacky Moderator mod
    edited June 2008
    I don't think he has anything against cats, just against cat threads in G&T

    Moe Fwacky on
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  • Satan.Satan. __BANNED USERS
    edited June 2008
    This thread is just serving to reinforce a couple sterotypes of subfora. Amuses me, so keep at it :P

    Satan. on
  • TheFid2TheFid2 Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    It was a joke...

    TheFid2 on
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  • PikaPuffPikaPuff Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    I thought we weren't allowed to talk about california academic tests. Those, too, were a joke.

    PikaPuff on
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  • valhalla130valhalla130 13 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    We mustn't joke, Fid. Not about this. We were wrong to walk off in a huff because obviously we were just big crybabies who had nothing to contribute here, and the world is better off without us in it.

    valhalla130 on
  • Regicid3Regicid3 Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Regicid3 wrote: »
    Because SE++ people do not mingle with G&T people well. SE++ people are talented assholes, G&T are . . .

    are . . .

    are . . .

    Please try not to answer questions directed at the administrative if staff if
    A. You don't know what you're talking about
    B. You're a thundering cretin

    You are currently two for two.

    Why do you have to hurt me so?

    We could have something.

    Regicid3 on
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    We mustn't joke, Fid. Not about this. We were wrong to walk off in a huff because obviously we were just big crybabies who had nothing to contribute here, and the world is better off without us in it.

    Whew! I thought my point had gone over everyone's head! I can go to bed a happy man now.


    I'll assume this was an indirect jab at my post, since I used the phrase "walked off in a huff" and so did you. Notice I never said you walked-off-in-a-huff people had nothing to contribute. I'm sure many of you contributed on a daily basis. But I do think you were/are a bunch of idiotic crybabies with regard to how you handled and continue to deal with the elimination of the G&T chat thread, so you're right-on with that interpretation of my post. I'm not going to name any particular splinter forums here, but dear lord were some of them funny reads. Not because I enjoy the misery of others, but the sense of entitlement was staggering and the inability for all of you to just chill out was pretty unbelievable.

    I don't really mean "unbelievable" in the literal sense, of course, because I certainly believe how people get wrapped up in these things, but really...boycotting Penny-Arcade because of a few structural changes to the forums was, in my humble opinion, the act of a bunch of people with too much ego and not enough sense. I'd also suggest that if the G&T chat thread was the only reason some people came to G&T - i.e. the only value they derived from the subforum - then G&T is probably better off without it. It's one thing if a chat thread is an extension of the existent forum community. It's another when it isn't.

    It really does amaze me that this topic keeps coming up, though. Both this and the misconception that new people can't post in SE++ because of some severe xenophobia that hardly exists anymore.

    Drez on
  • PikaPuffPikaPuff Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    I was about to say you were the first person to bring it up, but it was actually Kreutz.

    PikaPuff on
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  • SzechuanosaurusSzechuanosaurus Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2008
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    I totally see your point, I never ever ever had a issue with you guys getting rid of the G&T chat threads, they were terrible threads, and new people felt threatened in them.

    Even old people feel threatened by them. I can't deal with chat threads. Maybe it's because I'm a nomadic forumer so I'm not integrated enough into any one sub-forum but chat threads seem to just be impenetrable unless you commit all your time to them. The D&D chat thread is the same deal, last time I looked, it just seems to be a core group (Janson, Ege, Elki, variable, yalbarop, mojo, Shinto et al) having a private conversation. I'm sure others post in it as well, but there always seemed to be a core group of regulars who always took them over and you always got the distinct impression that you were butting in if you even read it, never mind post.

    I guess that's the point of them though, the people who become highly regular visitors to an on-topic forum want somewhere to just...chat...once they know each other well enough.

    Szechuanosaurus on
  • FyreWulffFyreWulff Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2008
    I think the issue is that the D&D chat thread keeps to itself. It doesn't intrude on the forum (you don't see an explosion of 50 posts of people trying to grab it every time it turns over), it doesn't overstep it's boundaries, and most of all you can actually post into it once or twice and you don't have to learn all the current love triangles to keep up. I have a couple of times posted in it, and people actually responded to me without going "who is that?".

    The issues with the G&T chat thread, from my point of view:
    - it constantly stepped on the forums toes (explosions every time it turned over)
    - it constantly stepped on new users toes. When someone would ask a question that only needed maybe 3 replies and it could die, people would reply it to just say 'you should post this in CHAT_THREAD or MEGA_THREAD'. Whereas they could have spent five more minutes to answer the question instead. And it just wasn't one person, at least 4-5 people would respond with "lol post in chat"
    - Chat thread moved way too fast. IRC would have been more well suited to the level of chat. The chat threads that are still around don't munch through 20 pages in 10 seconds. The only people that got replied to were regulars, making it impossible to gain inroads. So you'd have these people told to use a mega/chat thread, and when they did they would be ignored. Fed up, they would leave.
    - Chat thread regulars spent most of their time feeling entitled. They got their own special set of rules, and would run back and complain in chat if a mean ol' mod did something to them. Grudges and so on would be constantly fostered in the thread. People would post something not totally true, and 10 pages later the Internet Echo Chamber would make it true with like 5 more embellishments. Then the false information would perpetuate for months.
    - The same type of activity was the reason why for the longest time G&T didn't have join dates publically displayed, because people liked to haze newbies for no good particular reason.


    I still remember when the chat thread was proposed, who did it, and why. They were decent reasons at the time, and maybe G&T could have still had it's chat thread today if it hadn't gotten completely out of control. But it did. The mods could no longer do it. It's insanity to deal with that kind of mobthink. The best option was to just cut if off completely, give no option to fight back, or else the entire subforum would die off. And now we have a much more lively forum for it. I've noticed a lot more new faces coming into post than before.

    FyreWulff on
  • jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Drez wrote: »
    But I do think you were/are a bunch of idiotic crybabies with regard to how you handled and continue to deal with the elimination of the G&T chat thread, so you're right-on with that interpretation of my post.
    Some of us just followed the megathreads because we like them. No hard feelings to the people here, but when my favorite part of the forum left so did I for the most part. Hell, I didn't even post in the megas when they were here, but I loved reading them (mostly the 360 one because I was constantly considering running out and buying one).
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    I totally see your point, I never ever ever had a issue with you guys getting rid of the G&T chat threads, they were terrible threads, and new people felt threatened in them.
    I'm confused why the response to "the chat thread intimidates and scares me" isn't "then don't post in the chat thread." I'm not comfortable in the MGS4 thread so I don't go in there. Simple problem, simple solution. Just because it sat up at the top didn't mean it was the only thread here.

    jclast on
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  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited June 2008
    we're not talking about the chat thread

    if anyone would like to talk to me about the chat thread a prerequisite is that they post a video of themselves (ID will be required) banging their head against a solid wall (brick would be suitable) with enough force to be called "considerable" as preparation for the persuasion attempt.

    Tube on
    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
  • jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    For the record, Tube, I'm not trying to convince you to put it/them back. You're an admin, and you'll run the place as you see fit. My reply was more at Szechuan asking "why do you think it's the default to whine, cry, and carry on when you're uncomfortable in <whatever thread> instead of just not going in there?"

    jclast on
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This discussion has been closed.