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Moral Refusal Clauses - Evil Or Very Evil?

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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    nbacc wrote: »
    As i mentioned above, pharmacists working at pharmacy's would not be allowed to write scripts. The scripts they could write would be on already diagnosed disease.

    Depends on the specific proposal we're talking about.

    Edit: that is part of the problem with this kind of discussion. The devil is in the details. I wouldn't support any particular law or policy changing the status quo until I'd had a chance to read it and figure out the limitations to the new privileges being granted. (And that includes giving psychologists prescribing power, which is something I'm very passionate about.)

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    You can go to college for $3,000 per year? Must be Canadian.

    Edit: sorry, the for-profit education system in the US really irks me.

    Nope. I just happen to live in Arizona. See, the state Constitution was written by progressives, and has lines like education "Must be as free as possible".

    Now, we have a conservative legislature, so they interpret that fairly...liberally...but it does help keep tuitions relatively low. About $4,000 a year with all the fees and crap included when I graduated.

    Phoenix-D on
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    Simon MoonSimon Moon Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    You can go to college for $3,000 per year? Must be Canadian.

    Edit: sorry, the for-profit education system in the US really irks me.

    I'm with you on the irksomeness of it all, but I paid my own way through undergrad and it cost me about $1000 per semester, and a really easy to get state grant (I think I had to maintain a 2.0) paid for about a third of that. Mind you, this is in-state costs in Mississippi, but still...

    Simon Moon on
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    edited June 2008
    mcdermott wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Instead of dropping $100k and eight years, they'd drop $30k and four years.
    Where can you get four years of higher education for $30k?

    Most places its $30k a year.

    If you insist on a private school, perhaps. In most states your expected cost of attendance at a state university is more like $15K a year. Even in states like California it generally doesn't top $20K. And that's including housing (assuming that you'll either live on-campus or have roommates, of course).

    EDIT: Of course, this still makes it $40K to $60K for a four-year degree, not $30K.

    UC tuition is about $9k/year. I was assuming getting a part-time job to cover books, food, and housing. (Also, when I went to school tuition was half that, so my numbers were outdated.) Regardless, four years are cheaper than eight years.

    ElJeffe on
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    Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    The last thing we need is people being able to demand antibiotics from a pharmacist when they think they need them. There are already enough shitty doctors who fulfill patient demands for antibiotics when there is no valid medical reason that drug resistant bacteria have become a public health issue bordering on a crisis.

    Regina Fong on
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    dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Doctors pay a lot of money for insurance to be able to prescribe meds and diagnose. Will pharmacists pay malpractice as well? I mean, you're looking at 200k/year in some areas...

    dispatch.o on
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    Simon MoonSimon Moon Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Aren't pharmacists already required to carry malpractice? I know someone in pharmacy school who was required to get it, but I don't know if it was required by her school, her job, or by the state.

    Simon Moon on
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    AdrienAdrien Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Instead of dropping $100k and eight years, they'd drop $30k and four years.
    Where can you get four years of higher education for $30k?

    Most places its $30k a year.

    Reminds me of when Justice Breyer spoke at my brother's law shool graduation a few weeks ago. He said something like, "some of you are tens of thousands of dollars in debt..." Cue the embarrassed coughs from the students, most of whom are carrying more than $150,000 by now.

    Adrien on
    tmkm.jpg
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    Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Adrien wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Instead of dropping $100k and eight years, they'd drop $30k and four years.
    Where can you get four years of higher education for $30k?

    Most places its $30k a year.

    Reminds me of when Justice Breyer spoke at my brother's law shool graduation a few weeks ago. He said something like, "some of you are tens of thousands of dollars in debt..." Cue the embarrassed coughs from the students, most of whom are carrying more than $150,000 by now.


    I think "tens of thousands" still works there. "hundreds of thousands" wouldn't work, because that would strongly imply debt in the neighborhood of 300k+.

    Regina Fong on
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    AdrienAdrien Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Adrien wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Instead of dropping $100k and eight years, they'd drop $30k and four years.
    Where can you get four years of higher education for $30k?

    Most places its $30k a year.

    Reminds me of when Justice Breyer spoke at my brother's law shool graduation a few weeks ago. He said something like, "some of you are tens of thousands of dollars in debt..." Cue the embarrassed coughs from the students, most of whom are carrying more than $150,000 by now.


    I think "tens of thousands" still works there. "hundreds of thousands" wouldn't work, because that would strongly imply debt in the neighborhood of 300k+.

    It might have been "more than ten thousand". He was definitely out of touch.

    Adrien on
    tmkm.jpg
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    Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Adrien wrote: »
    It might have been "more than ten thousand". He was definitely out of touch.


    Older people generally are out of touch with the cost of things that they no longer have to worry about directly (education, childcare, etc.) but not unsurprisingly, hyper-aware of rising costs which do affect them (healthcare, medication, food, rent, property taxes).

    Regina Fong on
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    dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Simon Moon wrote: »
    Aren't pharmacists already required to carry malpractice? I know someone in pharmacy school who was required to get it, but I don't know if it was required by her school, her job, or by the state.

    Probably varies by state, but it wouldn't surprise me if some did. Now imagine if they had the responsibility of diagnosis. I'm not sure that it would even be fair for them.

    dispatch.o on
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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    You know it was enough of a debacle when medication substitution was introduced here. Pharmacists were allowed to recommend cheaper meds then prescribed by a doctor, which you know, worked out well except where "does the same thing" doesn't mean "by the same method".

    I have no idea what's become of it but I think it was fixed by the introduction of "do not substitute" tags that get put on just about everything now.

    EDIT:

    Also, I'm not actually specifically opposed to pharmacists being able to prescribe more then I am the logic behind letting them do it - which is to save the healthcare system money. Because it really won't, and that's a problem. The chief reason it's getting pushed for in Australia is because the pharmacists stand to make a shitload more money.

    electricitylikesme on
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    bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    I have no idea what's become of it but I think it was fixed by the introduction of "do not substitute" tags that get put on just about everything now.

    DAW - Dispense as Written, if you were wondering.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    AngelHedgie on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    The most controversial section defines abortion as "any of the various procedures -- including the prescription, dispensing and administration of any drug or the performance of any procedure or any other action -- that results in the termination of life of a human being in utero between conception and natural birth, whether before or after implantation."

    The wording of the quoted statement is meaningless, because conception is a process that includes implantation. They're obviously conflating "conception" with "fertilization," as is common among the Christian right.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    AngelHedgie on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    That is awesome, Angel.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    Bomb diggity

    Medopine on
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    deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Well done

    deadonthestreet on
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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    "The Supreme Court's desire to promote the homosexual lifestyle at the risk of infringing upon the First Amendment right to free exercise of religion is what the public needs to learn about," said Tyler, who leads the nonprofit Advocates for Faith and Freedom in Murrieta, Calif.

    Fucking moron.

    Drez on
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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Yes, the Freedom to deny others theirs!

    DarkPrimus on
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    INeedNoSaltINeedNoSalt with blood on my teeth Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Drez wrote: »
    "The Supreme Court's desire to promote the homosexual lifestyle at the risk of infringing upon the First Amendment right to free exercise of religion is what the public needs to learn about," said Tyler, who leads the nonprofit Advocates for Faith and Freedom in Murrieta, Calif.

    Fucking moron.

    That is just hilarious, oh man.

    INeedNoSalt on
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    DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Man what fucking religion says "You should fuck those who society disapproves of and fuck them hard!"? Cause I'm pretty certain there were like whole passages where Jesus was hanging with hoes and other outcasts.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
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    SeolSeol Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Man what fucking religion says "You should fuck those who society disapproves of and fuck them hard!"? Cause I'm pretty certain there were like whole passages where Jesus was hanging with hoes and other outcasts.
    The religious right is advocating fucking whores, and fucking them hard?

    Seol on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Fuck you very much, George.

    You know what I was thinking? Let the fundies have their little rule. But add a simple codicil - if a practitioner invokes their "right" to moral refusal, and in doing so causes harm to the patient, they are both criminally and civilly liable. In that case, they're more than welcome to refuse care - they just better hope that the person doesn't die because of it.

    AngelHedgie on
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    zeenyzeeny Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    That article is too easy to pick apart and quiet sickening.

    zeeny on
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    edited December 2008
    Yeah, I think you can start a new thread if you want to discuss this. Necroposting makes Baby Tube cry.

    ElJeffe on
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