The spectrum of gaming genres has become much narrower than it was in the 90s. Many genres are basically endangered species, and nothing is really replacing them.
That's a pretty bold claim. Care to share some examples?
Beat 'Em Ups are dead, SHMUPS are dead outside of indie circles, 2D platformers are on their last legs, Adventure games are barely there, flight sims, especially space flight sims are dead and buried, 2d fighters are still around, but not really commercially (at least in the West), and 3d fighters, which may have taken their place, aren't faring much better. (Recent booms don't really count; fighters are now a niche market.) Guncon games are pretty much dead, even in the arcades (which are mostly dead). Fast paced, competitive FPS games are just about gone, too. And the latest Unreal doesn't really count.
I think it's interesting to note that Gran Turismo 3 was the second best selling game on the PS2. Realistic racing games certainly aren't as niche as they may seem.
I personally don't like them. They demand nigh perfection with no reward that I really see as interesting. I grew up on RPGs, FPS', and RTS'.
While the Medal of Honour "one man army" approach to WWII shooters came over as largely unimaginative, I'd say Infinity Ward showed that there certainly is room for creativity within the era. Call of Duty 1 and 2 are absolutely outstanding, atmospheric titles and well worth playing.
It's called Medal of HONOR.
I really hope this is a joke and you're not as big of an asshole as it looks like you are.
It is Medal of fucking honor, it's not like you would go and spell Mortal Kombat differently.
The spectrum of gaming genres has become much narrower than it was in the 90s. Many genres are basically endangered species, and nothing is really replacing them.
That's a pretty bold claim. Care to share some examples?
Beat 'Em Ups are dead, SHMUPS are dead outside of indie circles, 2D platformers are on their last legs, Adventure games are barely there, flight sims, especially space flight sims are dead and buried, 2d fighters are still around, but not really commercially (at least in the West), and 3d fighters, which may have taken their place, aren't faring much better. (Recent booms don't really count; fighters are now a niche market.) Guncon games are pretty much dead, even in the arcades (which are mostly dead). Fast paced, competitive FPS games are just about gone, too. And the latest Unreal doesn't really count.
And Pinball games. What the hell?
Just going with a few notable games in the last year or so...
Beat 'Em UPs - Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, God of War - all very popular series that could be classified as beat em ups that have had recent games come out. Also see Yakuza & Odin Sphere.
2D platformers - I'd argue that N+ is the finest 2D platformer of all time and that just came out a few months ago. Lost Winds just came out and I've been hearing good things about that as well.
Shmups - The XBox 360 looks like its going to be the best shmup console system of all time. I mean, there's a new shmup on XBLA every 2-3 weeks it seems like and a surprisingly high percentage of them are really good. The other systems aren't lacking either: Nanostray 2 & Space Invaders Extreme on the DS, Everyday Shooter & Super Stardust HD on the PS3, Castle of Shikigami 3 & a bunch of VC shmups on the Wii. It's never been a better time to be a shmup fan than now.
Adventure games - Admittedly, we're a long way from the early PC days where it seemed like every other PC game was an adventure game, but there are still good adventure games to be found these days. Sam & Max, the Phoenix Wright games, Zac & Wiki.
Fighter games - I'll admit I don't follow this genre as closely as some others, but the casual fighting game market has never been stronger (Brawl & I'm a big fan of the Naruto fighters) & hey, Street Fighter 4 & an HD remake of SF2.
Flight/Space Sims - Okay, I'll give you this. Was it ever more than a niche genre though?
Guncon games - Well, the arcades are dead, but with the Wii's new control scheme, it looks like the genre could get a new lease on life on the consoles. Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles was a fantastic game with a lot more meat to it than your average gun game since it was made with a home audience in mind.
I'll admit that many of these genres have had greater popularity in the past, but to be honest, that was often a case of oversaturation: do we really want to go back to the past where the majority of console games were lowsy Super Mario Bros knockoffs and the majority of PC games were lowsy Monkey Island knockoffs?
freakish lightbutterdick jonesand his heavenly asshole machineRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
Actually, all gaming is dead. Haven't you heard?
Also, I traditionally avoided racing games for the longest time, but I realized that GTA's driving was so much fun that I kind of want to play more driving games now. Realistic sims like GTR 2 are just ridiculous without a racing wheel, but I'm having great fun with Burnout Paradise and hopefully more arcadey racers like that.
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augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
I never buy/have anything to do with racing/sports games either. I don't know what it is.
I definitely used to enjoy playing football games and racing games when I was younger, but when I was younger I liked PLAYING football and other sporty stuff.
This definitely leads me to believe that a lot of people can only become interested in sport style games if they are interested in sport itself. This may be because it's one of the only game genres that strives to be very realistic, and as such draws on people's real life experience, where as a game like mario has no basis in reality.
To summarize:
Sport/Race games draw from real life experience/knowledge to a large extent, so may need real life interest in sport/racing to enjoy these games.
Non Sports/racing games draw from mostly fictional or imagined sources and so a much wider range of people can find them engaging.
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freakish lightbutterdick jonesand his heavenly asshole machineRegistered Userregular
I'm generally a fan of sports (though not an avid fan of anything but basketball), but I basically don't like any sports games, even of those sports I enjoy.
Football: The actual playing is fun, but play-calling is so important in all of them that it breaks the pace up in a bad way, and requires an amount of knowledge about formations that I will absolutely never know because I don't care enough.
Basketball: I usually get some enjoyment out of basketball games just because of how much I like the sport but I lose interest quickly once I realize how unlike the real sport it is. It's not a singular thing, it's about a hundred different things that add up to making it feel wrong---the defense always being so porous, the ball bouncing in an odd manner, the general herky-jerky feeling of players in most of them. But I think what bothers me most is that all the little things you can do to outdo your opponent--either on the dribble or down in the box rebounding, can never be conveyed accurately in a videogame, and thus it just feels off in a way that is always going to be disconcerting to me.
With most other genres I at least like a certain sub-set within the genre. Like, for example, I hate most sim-like racers like Forza and Gran Turismo, but I loved Burnout 3 and similar games. I dislike most SRPG's, but I loved Disgaea (though I did get burned out on it eventually). About 3 months ago I would have told you that I hated games where you use stealth, but I loved Metal Gear Solid 4, so.......
The spectrum of gaming genres has become much narrower than it was in the 90s. Many genres are basically endangered species, and nothing is really replacing them.
That's a pretty bold claim. Care to share some examples?
Beat 'Em Ups are dead, SHMUPS are dead outside of indie circles, 2D platformers are on their last legs, Adventure games are barely there, flight sims, especially space flight sims are dead and buried, 2d fighters are still around, but not really commercially (at least in the West), and 3d fighters, which may have taken their place, aren't faring much better. (Recent booms don't really count; fighters are now a niche market.) Guncon games are pretty much dead, even in the arcades (which are mostly dead). Fast paced, competitive FPS games are just about gone, too. And the latest Unreal doesn't really count.
And Pinball games. What the hell?
Just going with a few notable games in the last year or so...
Beat 'Em UPs - Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, God of War - all very popular series that could be classified as beat em ups that have had recent games come out. Also see Yakuza & Odin Sphere.
Those aren't the Beat 'Em Ups I grew up with. Those are action games, and they're hardly the same. Not only are they completely unlike Beat 'Em Ups, they lack the one thing that really tied all BEUs together; easy, multiplayer action.
2D platformers - I'd argue that N+ is the finest 2D platformer of all time and that just came out a few months ago. Lost Winds just came out and I've been hearing good things about that as well.
I'd argue that you're wrong. I played N+ when it came out as an Indie game on PCs, and I couldn't stand it. There are platforms, but the controls are just horrible and it lacks things that other platformers have, like enemies and bosses. It's more a puzzle game than a platformer, in my opinion. And, yes, there are still a few 2d platformers trickling out here and there, but it used to be one of the dominant genres.
Shmups - The XBox 360 looks like its going to be the best shmup console system of all time. I mean, there's a new shmup on XBLA every 2-3 weeks it seems like and a surprisingly high percentage of them are really good. The other systems aren't lacking either: Nanostray 2 & Space Invaders Extreme on the DS, Everyday Shooter & Super Stardust HD on the PS3, Castle of Shikigami 3 & a bunch of VC shmups on the Wii. It's never been a better time to be a shmup fan than now.
Granted, there are a few new SHMUPS popping up, and there are all the VC games on Wii (doesn't really count), but where are the established series like R-Type, 1942, and Gradius? There are some indie SHMUPS and plenty of Doujin SHMUPS, but it's not the same!
Adventure games - Admittedly, we're a long way from the early PC days where it seemed like every other PC game was an adventure game, but there are still good adventure games to be found these days. Sam & Max, the Phoenix Wright games, Zac & Wiki.
I miss my stupidly obtuse King's Quest and Space Quest games. Actually, maybe I don't. I could live without most adventure games. I still think the genre is a shadow of its former self.
Fighter games - I'll admit I don't follow this genre as closely as some others, but the casual fighting game market has never been stronger (Brawl & I'm a big fan of the Naruto fighters) & hey, Street Fighter 4 & an HD remake of SF2.
This is a common mistake. SF =/= 2d fighting games. There are so many series that were and are so much better. And the genre has been soldiering along manfully for years since the last SF game came out, and years more since the last SF game that all the casual players hated came out (SF3). I'm a huge fan of 2d fighting games and I wouldn't mind one single bit if there was never a new SF game.
There have been a whole bunch of fighting games that came out since SF quit, even since the VS series stopped, and they've been way better, which speaks to my point; 2d fighters have been getting progressively better and progressively more niche. Go figure.
Flight/Space Sims - Okay, I'll give you this. Was it ever more than a niche genre though?
The X-Wing and TIE Fighter games were a big deal, as well as Wing Commander. There were tons of modern and WW2 flight sims, too.
Guncon games - Well, the arcades are dead, but with the Wii's new control scheme, it looks like the genre could get a new lease on life on the consoles. Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles was a fantastic game with a lot more meat to it than your average gun game since it was made with a home audience in mind.
I had hoped that the Wii would revive one of my favourite casual genres, but so far it really hasn't. RE:UC, sure, and a few arcade ports, but nothing really new and exciting.
I'll admit that many of these genres have had greater popularity in the past, but to be honest, that was often a case of oversaturation: do we really want to go back to the past where the majority of console games were lowsy Super Mario Bros knockoffs and the majority of PC games were lowsy Monkey Island knockoffs?
I'd prefer that over lousy FPS, stealth, and action game knockoffs.
I made one distinction, the difference between Beat 'Em Ups and action games. I'm not ignoring any definition of genre, that I can see. And I love Ninja Gaiden. I somewhat enjoy Devil May Cry, though I can do without God of War.
And I don't think "video gaming is dead," or any such nonsense. I do think that some genres are all but, a few deservedly so (like I said, King's Quest and Space Quest can die in a grease fire).
And if you'd checked you'd have seen that I listed a whole bunch of genres that I play, and even sometimes enjoy. I do have to look a little harder to find the things that I like, but that's just the way it is.
It's the same argument I have with people who think there's no good music anymore. It's still there, you just have to look harder for it. For example, 2D fighters. I think it's a niche genre at best now, but the games that are coming out are more exciting to me than ten thousand Street Fighter or World Heroes games. I'm a lot more worried about 3D fighters, honestly; if Soul Calibur 4 sucks as bad as it just might then I don't know what I'll do.
Nowadays I really don't have any genre that I dislike flat out. I don't really play any sports games, but I really used to back in the day. They're mostly what got me into games in the first place. I don't follow the sports anymore, so the games lost a bit of their charm. That, and I am usually more into story-based games, so I just haven't given 'em a whirl again lately.
As for racing sims: I really shouldn't like them at all. I pretty much do not care at all about cars. I never have. People talk about trucks and cars in real life I pretty much go braindead at the conversation. But, a long while ago when I got my PS1, I really really got into Gran Turismo. I loved that game to death. I never did buy GT3 or 4, but I'm interested in starting the GT kick again, so when I had a coupon I just ordered GT5: Prologue. (It was free, pretty much). So, we'll see how that goes.
I do have a pretty big semi-aversion to first person shooters. I do like playing co-op, but I just hate playing single player in most of them. I suck a lot at them first off, most of the time the stories don't really drag me in, and I really just flat out dislike the first person view. I fucking hate the lack of peripheral vision. I'm pretty sure if every FPS was magically turned into a third person shooter, I'd have played pretty near all of them. Oh well.
While the Medal of Honour "one man army" approach to WWII shooters came over as largely unimaginative, I'd say Infinity Ward showed that there certainly is room for creativity within the era. Call of Duty 1 and 2 are absolutely outstanding, atmospheric titles and well worth playing.
It's called Medal of HONOR.
I really hope this is a joke and you're not as big of an asshole as it looks like you are.
It is Medal of fucking honor, it's not like you would go and spell Mortal Kombat differently.
One of the cool things about different countries is that they spell things differently. This isn't exactly Linguistic Variation, but it's very similar and the principle is essentially the same. Honour is a British variant of the American honor. Sure, Medal of Honor is a proper noun, which means there should be one standard spelling, but you seriously don't have to call someone out when they didn't even spell something incorrectly for their region.
I made one distinction, the difference between Beat 'Em Ups and action games. I'm not ignoring any definition of genre, that I can see. And I love Ninja Gaiden. I somewhat enjoy Devil May Cry, though I can do without God of War.
And I don't think "video gaming is dead," or any such nonsense. I do think that some genres are all but, a few deservedly so (like I said, King's Quest and Space Quest can die in a grease fire).
And if you'd checked you'd have seen that I listed a whole bunch of genres that I play, and even sometimes enjoy. I do have to look a little harder to find the things that I like, but that's just the way it is.
It's the same argument I have with people who think there's no good music anymore. It's still there, you just have to look harder for it. For example, 2D fighters. I think it's a niche genre at best now, but the games that are coming out are more exciting to me than ten thousand Street Fighter or World Heroes games. I'm a lot more worried about 3D fighters, honestly; if Soul Calibur 4 sucks as bad as it just might then I don't know what I'll do.
I would consider DMC, God of War, God Hand, etc... to be beat 'em ups. They're just not 2d anymore, although Viewtiful Joe is a pretty popular 2d beat 'em up and that is a pretty recent title.
I made one distinction, the difference between Beat 'Em Ups and action games. I'm not ignoring any definition of genre, that I can see. And I love Ninja Gaiden. I somewhat enjoy Devil May Cry, though I can do without God of War.
And I don't think "video gaming is dead," or any such nonsense. I do think that some genres are all but, a few deservedly so (like I said, King's Quest and Space Quest can die in a grease fire).
And if you'd checked you'd have seen that I listed a whole bunch of genres that I play, and even sometimes enjoy. I do have to look a little harder to find the things that I like, but that's just the way it is.
It's the same argument I have with people who think there's no good music anymore. It's still there, you just have to look harder for it. For example, 2D fighters. I think it's a niche genre at best now, but the games that are coming out are more exciting to me than ten thousand Street Fighter or World Heroes games. I'm a lot more worried about 3D fighters, honestly; if Soul Calibur 4 sucks as bad as it just might then I don't know what I'll do.
I would consider DMC, God of War, God Hand, etc... to be beat 'em ups. They're just not 2d anymore, although Viewtiful Joe is a pretty popular 2d beat 'em up and that is a pretty recent title.
You can say that Beat 'Em Ups became action games, but they're very different from each other. Again, Beat 'Em Ups were closely linked to their multiplayer. Golden Axe, Streets of Rage, Final Fight, Aliens Vs Predator, Dungeons and Dragons, all of those games were all about the multiplayer.
No, I totally agree with you. Although, I do think that action games were around in the 8 and 16 bit eras.
Also, based on your criteria, how would you classify a game like Comix Zone? I would call it a beat 'em up, but it isn't multiplayer (if I remember correctly).
No, I totally agree with you. Although, I do think that action games were around in the 8 and 16 bit eras.
Also, based on your criteria, how would you classify a game like Comix Zone? I would call it a beat 'em up, but it isn't multiplayer (if I remember correctly).
I think action games existed, too. There were single player action games going way back. But they were different from Beat 'Em Ups, and everyone knew it.
Beat 'Em UPs - Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, God of War - all very popular series that could be classified as beat em ups that have had recent games come out. Also see Yakuza & Odin Sphere.
Those aren't the Beat 'Em Ups I grew up with. Those are action games, and they're hardly the same. Not only are they completely unlike Beat 'Em Ups, they lack the one thing that really tied all BEUs together; easy, multiplayer action.
I think your definition is too narrow. These are games where you spend 80-90% of your time wailing on enemies up close and personal (with a little platforming/exploration thrown in to keep things from getting stale). Sure, they might not be identical to Streets of Rage, but do they have to be? And hey, if you really want a beat-em-up old school style, you can always pick up The Red Star for dirt cheap.
2D platformers - I'd argue that N+ is the finest 2D platformer of all time and that just came out a few months ago. Lost Winds just came out and I've been hearing good things about that as well.
I'd argue that you're wrong. I played N+ when it came out as an Indie game on PCs, and I couldn't stand it. There are platforms, but the controls are just horrible and it lacks things that other platformers have, like enemies and bosses. It's more a puzzle game than a platformer, in my opinion. And, yes, there are still a few 2d platformers trickling out here and there, but it used to be one of the dominant genres.
Different things for different people. I'd argue that N+ is subtly, but noticeably better than N (the indie PC version you played) in control and level design. Plus multiplayer is loads of fun. Personally, I feel like the reason that N+ is such a great game is that it's pure gameplay: fantastic control that lets you do some incredible moves once you've mastered and level after level of wonderfully designed rooms with no boring hub levels or story to interrupt the flow.
Shmups - The XBox 360 looks like its going to be the best shmup console system of all time. I mean, there's a new shmup on XBLA every 2-3 weeks it seems like and a surprisingly high percentage of them are really good. The other systems aren't lacking either: Nanostray 2 & Space Invaders Extreme on the DS, Everyday Shooter & Super Stardust HD on the PS3, Castle of Shikigami 3 & a bunch of VC shmups on the Wii. It's never been a better time to be a shmup fan than now.
Granted, there are a few new SHMUPS popping up, and there are all the VC games on Wii (doesn't really count), but where are the established series like R-Type, 1942, and Gradius? There are some indie SHMUPS and plenty of Doujin SHMUPS, but it's not the same!
Well, R-Type got a Strategy/RPG spin-off recently (yeah, bizarre ain't it) and there's a new 1942 game coming out soon. Also a new Star Soldier caravan mode game came out recently; there's another established series for you.
There have been a whole bunch of fighting games that came out since SF quit, even since the VS series stopped, and they've been way better, which speaks to my point; 2d fighters have been getting progressively better and progressively more niche. Go figure.
It's not that fighters have been getting more niche, it's that they've split off into multiple genres - highly technical fighters like Guilty Gear and pick-up-and play games like Super Smash Bros. Brawl & Naruto Gekitou Ninja Taisen - and those genres are further split up between 2D & 3D gameplay. 2D fighters more niche? Brawl is easily the most popular fighter these days (and one of the most popular games period) & it has 2D gameplay and is easy to pick up.
Oh and BTW I hear the Williams Wii pinball game is fantastic.
In any case, yes, if you have very narrow restrictions and definitions on what a genre is, then yes, genres are dying all the time. If your definition of a shmup is a game that's part of a long running series that doesn't involve bullet hell or dual analog stick control, then yeah, the genre might be dying, but in the meantime, I'll be enjoying an enhanced version of one of the best shmups of all time (Ikaruga XBLA), a great Forgotten World-esque shmup (Omega Five), a fantastic 4-player party shmup (Heavy Weapon), one of the best remakes of all time to one of the true gaming classics (Space Invaders Extreme), a shmup crossed with Katamari Damacy combined with user-editing tools (Blast Works), a puzzle/shmup (Triggerheart Exelica), an excellent bullet hell shmup (Castle of Shikigami 3), an artsy/musicy shmup (Everyday Shooter), and oh, half a dozen dual stick shmups for good measure. And that's just counting games on the current generation of consoles.
Very few genres are dying. Genres evolve, they try new things, they mix elements of other genres together, they change in popularity, but genres very rarely just flat out die. If you think that there is less variety in games now than there was in the past, well, maybe you're just letting your nostalgia get the better of you.
As mentioned in the OP, I don't particularly enjoy racing sim games. I don't hate them, I just don't enjoy myself when I play. The learning curve is always quite steep, since every sim racer seems to have a slightly different idea of what "realistic" means. By the time I've figured it out, even if I get good, I don't really feel much of a sense of accomplishment. Games in which I feel like I'm fighting the interface or play mechanics every step of the way aren't rewarding to me, just exhausting. I mean sure, I get a bit of a rush when I beat a difficult race, but I prefer games which allow me to have that rush feeling throughout.
I'm also not big on RTS games for reasons similar to the above. It always feels like the whole "tactical" element gets a bit lost when you add the elements of reaction time and AI idiocy into the mix. I'm a fan of tactics games, don't get me wrong, but more along the lines of Disgaea where I have full control of my units and can see the entire battle at all times.
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While you were asleep, your windows told me all your secrets.
Well we're just going to have to disagree then. I think that maybe Beat 'Em Ups evolved into the action games we have today, but they aren't the same. And I did play Red Star, and it was decent enough, but I spent most of the time wishing Capcom was still making Beat 'Em Ups like they did in the 90s.
SHMUPS are something else. There are a lot of them about, and I'm including bullet-hells, but I don't see them out there like other games. They're either indie, VC, or XBLA, with a few on the DS for measure. A new 1942, though, that'd be sweet.
SSB is not a fighting game by any definition I recognize. It's a multiplayer action game, and I'd be more comfortable calling it a Beat 'Em Up than I would a fighting game. I'll grant you a few of those Naruto games, but only partially. They're one notch above SSB, in my opinion. And I worry about the state of traditional 3D fighters.
N, or N+. Well, I loved almost everything about it. The concept, the art, the stages, interface. I could not stand the gameplay. The jumping was so floaty and loose. Even after I'd gotten two thirds through the game I still couldn't stand the physics; I knew that 95% of my deaths were because the game. I just like my platformers to have some weight, like a MMX/Z game. But that's just me.
And I don't think my definitions are too narrow. Some types of games just aren't around anymore. I can bemoan the death of the X-Wing/TIE Fighter series, and then you can bring up the Rogue Squadron games. They aren't the same. You do the same things in each, but the games are fundamentally different. The same for the old Golden Axe games and what's being revealed about the new one. They're not the same.
The spectrum of gaming genres has become much narrower than it was in the 90s. Many genres are basically endangered species, and nothing is really replacing them.
That's a pretty bold claim. Care to share some examples?
Beat 'Em Ups are dead, SHMUPS are dead outside of indie circles, 2D platformers are on their last legs, Adventure games are barely there, flight sims, especially space flight sims are dead and buried, 2d fighters are still around, but not really commercially (at least in the West), and 3d fighters, which may have taken their place, aren't faring much better. (Recent booms don't really count; fighters are now a niche market.) Guncon games are pretty much dead, even in the arcades (which are mostly dead). Fast paced, competitive FPS games are just about gone, too. And the latest Unreal doesn't really count.
And Pinball games. What the hell?
Just going with a few notable games in the last year or so...
Beat 'Em UPs - Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, God of War - all very popular series that could be classified as beat em ups that have had recent games come out. Also see Yakuza & Odin Sphere.
2D platformers - I'd argue that N+ is the finest 2D platformer of all time and that just came out a few months ago. Lost Winds just came out and I've been hearing good things about that as well.
Shmups - The XBox 360 looks like its going to be the best shmup console system of all time. I mean, there's a new shmup on XBLA every 2-3 weeks it seems like and a surprisingly high percentage of them are really good. The other systems aren't lacking either: Nanostray 2 & Space Invaders Extreme on the DS, Everyday Shooter & Super Stardust HD on the PS3, Castle of Shikigami 3 & a bunch of VC shmups on the Wii. It's never been a better time to be a shmup fan than now.
Adventure games - Admittedly, we're a long way from the early PC days where it seemed like every other PC game was an adventure game, but there are still good adventure games to be found these days. Sam & Max, the Phoenix Wright games, Zac & Wiki.
Fighter games - I'll admit I don't follow this genre as closely as some others, but the casual fighting game market has never been stronger (Brawl & I'm a big fan of the Naruto fighters) & hey, Street Fighter 4 & an HD remake of SF2.
Flight/Space Sims - Okay, I'll give you this. Was it ever more than a niche genre though?
Guncon games - Well, the arcades are dead, but with the Wii's new control scheme, it looks like the genre could get a new lease on life on the consoles. Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles was a fantastic game with a lot more meat to it than your average gun game since it was made with a home audience in mind.
I'll admit that many of these genres have had greater popularity in the past, but to be honest, that was often a case of oversaturation: do we really want to go back to the past where the majority of console games were lowsy Super Mario Bros knockoffs and the majority of PC games were lowsy Monkey Island knockoffs?
With regards to PC shmups, do yourself a favour and look up the following:
Cho Ren Sha
Blue Wish Resurrection
Warning Forever
ABA Games such as rRootage, Torus Trooper, and Tumiki Fighters (and its successor Blast Works for Wii)
G-Type
As for platformers, prepare to salivate and await its release (whenever that is). Fez
One more comment about racing sims. I actually feel bad when people try to play them and don't understand the basics of real-world vehicle dynamics. My wife will try a few laps of GTR2 and even if I put it on novice mode, she tries to drive it like an action game, no matter how carefully I explain things. And it's not like you need weeks to learn it -- maybe 5 minutes on the traction circle concept and a few passes on a long turn to learn how to feel the tires with a force feedback wheel. (Heck, every teenager should learn the traction circle.)
I feel bad because it really is no fun when you don't understand those things, and it doesn't have to be that way. Sims get a bad rap for appearing to be difficult to get into, and it's a shame because there's a lot of enjoyment to be had when things finally click.
I don't know, maybe you just have to like cars and racing. :?
While the Medal of Honour "one man army" approach to WWII shooters came over as largely unimaginative, I'd say Infinity Ward showed that there certainly is room for creativity within the era. Call of Duty 1 and 2 are absolutely outstanding, atmospheric titles and well worth playing.
It's called Medal of HONOR.
I really hope this is a joke and you're not as big of an asshole as it looks like you are.
It is Medal of fucking honor, it's not like you would go and spell Mortal Kombat differently.
Now listen son, you're American so I'll forgive you, but until the language you speak has the same name as your nationality, you don't get to correct my spelling.
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augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
What I'm wondering is: is it better to be a well-rounded gamer who leaves their preconceptions aside and tries things they might not like every so often, or does it make more sense to stick with what you know and have a better chance of ensuring that you'll spend the majority of time in an area of gaming you're a lot more likely to enjoy?
I know what genres I like and what styles of gaming I like, so naturally I tend to gravitate towards them. I do, however, like to dabble in other genres, even those I don't like, from time to time. I like to experience new things or see what people are talking about. Once in a blue moon something even clicks. "Hey, I never liked something like this before!" or "This is cooler than I expected!"
I rely on demos for that, of course. Who has the money to experiment at $60 a pop?
For the most part, though, I gravitate towards the games I know will be sure things for me. The most recent time I did not was with Super Mario Galaxy. I don't like 3D platformers at all, but the word of mouth was so awesome I went right out and bought it.
This has probably already been mentioned in one way or another, but the poll on a site like Kotaku isn't representative of the majority of gamers. I'm pretty sure Madden is one of the best selling games of all time, so clearly there's a large group of people who enjoy the sports genre. In my experience, the people who enjoy sports games don't enjoy other kinds of games, like RPGs for example. Which type of gamer do you think is more likely to go to a game site like kotaku? The sports fan, or the RPG fan?
Personally, and to answer your question, I'm a fan of generally all genres of games. There may be some genres that I'm not huge on, but there will be a few games within that genre that I really enjoy. I think you're limiting yourself, and your enjoyment if you feel the need to classify games based on genres before you consider playing them.
One more comment about racing sims. I actually feel bad when people try to play them and don't understand the basics of real-world vehicle dynamics. My wife will try a few laps of GTR2 and even if I put it on novice mode, she tries to drive it like an action game, no matter how carefully I explain things. And it's not like you need weeks to learn it -- maybe 5 minutes on the traction circle concept and a few passes on a long turn to learn how to feel the tires with a force feedback wheel. (Heck, every teenager should learn the traction circle.)
I feel bad because it really is no fun when you don't understand those things, and it doesn't have to be that way. Sims get a bad rap for appearing to be difficult to get into, and it's a shame because there's a lot of enjoyment to be had when things finally click.
I don't know, maybe you just have to like cars and racing. :?
I tried it, but on my PC I only have a gamepad and when the training section tells you to gently squeeze the brake... well, I crashed into some walls. I'll keep it around if I ever find a cheap racing wheel, but given the prices I'm seeing I don't know if that's very likely.
Flight/Space Sims - Okay, I'll give you this. Was it ever more than a niche genre though?
Well, it used to exist.
Isn't there an IL-2 Sturmovik sequel coming out on PC? Not the console one, but a PC only one.
Yes - Battle of Britain. No one is really sure when it'll be coming out though, it's been "close to release" for years.
Also, to all of those despairing about the lack of flight sims, if you aren't playing IL2, you're doing yourselves a disservice. It's a fantastic game, the community is still very active and the graphics and physics have been updated through numerous patches so it hardly shows its age.
Flight/Space Sims - Okay, I'll give you this. Was it ever more than a niche genre though?
Well, it used to exist.
Isn't there an IL-2 Sturmovik sequel coming out on PC? Not the console one, but a PC only one.
Yes - Battle of Britain. No one is really sure when it'll be coming out though, it's been "close to release" for years.
Also, to all of those despairing about the lack of flight sims, if you aren't playing IL2, you're doing yourselves a disservice. It's a fantastic game, the community is still very active and the graphics and physics have been updated through numerous patches so it hardly shows its age.
I was going to try this on Gametap, but if there are good community mods available I might have to try to find it for cheap.
I do have Falcon 4.0: Allied Force to work through though. Do I really need to huge combat flight sims taking up large chunks of my backlog?
This has probably already been mentioned in one way or another, but the poll on a site like Kotaku isn't representative of the majority of gamers. I'm pretty sure Madden is one of the best selling games of all time, so clearly there's a large group of people who enjoy the sports genre. In my experience, the people who enjoy sports games don't enjoy other kinds of games, like RPGs for example. Which type of gamer do you think is more likely to go to a game site like kotaku? The sports fan, or the RPG fan?
This just brings up the argument that people who exclusively play sports games aren't "gamers" at all - they are "people who play sports games"
people who exclusively play FPS games aren't "gamers" at all - they are "people who play FPS games"
Sorry? So I guess all the top athletes in any given sport aren't athlete's at all, because a true athlete would play all the good sports, right?
Did you consider how incongruous what you said is with all the hardcore gamers out there practicing and playing one game, competitively, for hours a day? Bit presumptuous...
people who exclusively play FPS games aren't "gamers" at all - they are "people who play FPS games"
Sorry? So I guess all the top athletes in any given sport aren't athlete's at all, because a true athlete would play all the good sports, right?
Did you consider how incongruous what you said is with all the hardcore gamers out there practicing and playing one game, competitively, for hours a day? Bit presumptuous...
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Beat 'Em Ups are dead, SHMUPS are dead outside of indie circles, 2D platformers are on their last legs, Adventure games are barely there, flight sims, especially space flight sims are dead and buried, 2d fighters are still around, but not really commercially (at least in the West), and 3d fighters, which may have taken their place, aren't faring much better. (Recent booms don't really count; fighters are now a niche market.) Guncon games are pretty much dead, even in the arcades (which are mostly dead). Fast paced, competitive FPS games are just about gone, too. And the latest Unreal doesn't really count.
And Pinball games. What the hell?
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Specifically space/flight sims and adventure games.
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I personally don't like them. They demand nigh perfection with no reward that I really see as interesting. I grew up on RPGs, FPS', and RTS'.
It is Medal of fucking honor, it's not like you would go and spell Mortal Kombat differently.
Just going with a few notable games in the last year or so...
Beat 'Em UPs - Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, God of War - all very popular series that could be classified as beat em ups that have had recent games come out. Also see Yakuza & Odin Sphere.
2D platformers - I'd argue that N+ is the finest 2D platformer of all time and that just came out a few months ago. Lost Winds just came out and I've been hearing good things about that as well.
Shmups - The XBox 360 looks like its going to be the best shmup console system of all time. I mean, there's a new shmup on XBLA every 2-3 weeks it seems like and a surprisingly high percentage of them are really good. The other systems aren't lacking either: Nanostray 2 & Space Invaders Extreme on the DS, Everyday Shooter & Super Stardust HD on the PS3, Castle of Shikigami 3 & a bunch of VC shmups on the Wii. It's never been a better time to be a shmup fan than now.
Adventure games - Admittedly, we're a long way from the early PC days where it seemed like every other PC game was an adventure game, but there are still good adventure games to be found these days. Sam & Max, the Phoenix Wright games, Zac & Wiki.
Fighter games - I'll admit I don't follow this genre as closely as some others, but the casual fighting game market has never been stronger (Brawl & I'm a big fan of the Naruto fighters) & hey, Street Fighter 4 & an HD remake of SF2.
Flight/Space Sims - Okay, I'll give you this. Was it ever more than a niche genre though?
Guncon games - Well, the arcades are dead, but with the Wii's new control scheme, it looks like the genre could get a new lease on life on the consoles. Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles was a fantastic game with a lot more meat to it than your average gun game since it was made with a home audience in mind.
I'll admit that many of these genres have had greater popularity in the past, but to be honest, that was often a case of oversaturation: do we really want to go back to the past where the majority of console games were lowsy Super Mario Bros knockoffs and the majority of PC games were lowsy Monkey Island knockoffs?
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Also, I traditionally avoided racing games for the longest time, but I realized that GTA's driving was so much fun that I kind of want to play more driving games now. Realistic sims like GTR 2 are just ridiculous without a racing wheel, but I'm having great fun with Burnout Paradise and hopefully more arcadey racers like that.
Well, it used to exist.
I definitely used to enjoy playing football games and racing games when I was younger, but when I was younger I liked PLAYING football and other sporty stuff.
This definitely leads me to believe that a lot of people can only become interested in sport style games if they are interested in sport itself. This may be because it's one of the only game genres that strives to be very realistic, and as such draws on people's real life experience, where as a game like mario has no basis in reality.
To summarize:
Sport/Race games draw from real life experience/knowledge to a large extent, so may need real life interest in sport/racing to enjoy these games.
Non Sports/racing games draw from mostly fictional or imagined sources and so a much wider range of people can find them engaging.
I eat mushrooms and smash my head against bricks all the time.
Football: The actual playing is fun, but play-calling is so important in all of them that it breaks the pace up in a bad way, and requires an amount of knowledge about formations that I will absolutely never know because I don't care enough.
Basketball: I usually get some enjoyment out of basketball games just because of how much I like the sport but I lose interest quickly once I realize how unlike the real sport it is. It's not a singular thing, it's about a hundred different things that add up to making it feel wrong---the defense always being so porous, the ball bouncing in an odd manner, the general herky-jerky feeling of players in most of them. But I think what bothers me most is that all the little things you can do to outdo your opponent--either on the dribble or down in the box rebounding, can never be conveyed accurately in a videogame, and thus it just feels off in a way that is always going to be disconcerting to me.
With most other genres I at least like a certain sub-set within the genre. Like, for example, I hate most sim-like racers like Forza and Gran Turismo, but I loved Burnout 3 and similar games. I dislike most SRPG's, but I loved Disgaea (though I did get burned out on it eventually). About 3 months ago I would have told you that I hated games where you use stealth, but I loved Metal Gear Solid 4, so.......
Those aren't the Beat 'Em Ups I grew up with. Those are action games, and they're hardly the same. Not only are they completely unlike Beat 'Em Ups, they lack the one thing that really tied all BEUs together; easy, multiplayer action.
I'd argue that you're wrong. I played N+ when it came out as an Indie game on PCs, and I couldn't stand it. There are platforms, but the controls are just horrible and it lacks things that other platformers have, like enemies and bosses. It's more a puzzle game than a platformer, in my opinion. And, yes, there are still a few 2d platformers trickling out here and there, but it used to be one of the dominant genres.
Granted, there are a few new SHMUPS popping up, and there are all the VC games on Wii (doesn't really count), but where are the established series like R-Type, 1942, and Gradius? There are some indie SHMUPS and plenty of Doujin SHMUPS, but it's not the same!
I miss my stupidly obtuse King's Quest and Space Quest games. Actually, maybe I don't. I could live without most adventure games. I still think the genre is a shadow of its former self.
This is a common mistake. SF =/= 2d fighting games. There are so many series that were and are so much better. And the genre has been soldiering along manfully for years since the last SF game came out, and years more since the last SF game that all the casual players hated came out (SF3). I'm a huge fan of 2d fighting games and I wouldn't mind one single bit if there was never a new SF game.
There have been a whole bunch of fighting games that came out since SF quit, even since the VS series stopped, and they've been way better, which speaks to my point; 2d fighters have been getting progressively better and progressively more niche. Go figure.
The X-Wing and TIE Fighter games were a big deal, as well as Wing Commander. There were tons of modern and WW2 flight sims, too.
I had hoped that the Wii would revive one of my favourite casual genres, but so far it really hasn't. RE:UC, sure, and a few arcade ports, but nothing really new and exciting.
I'd prefer that over lousy FPS, stealth, and action game knockoffs.
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And I don't think "video gaming is dead," or any such nonsense. I do think that some genres are all but, a few deservedly so (like I said, King's Quest and Space Quest can die in a grease fire).
And if you'd checked you'd have seen that I listed a whole bunch of genres that I play, and even sometimes enjoy. I do have to look a little harder to find the things that I like, but that's just the way it is.
It's the same argument I have with people who think there's no good music anymore. It's still there, you just have to look harder for it. For example, 2D fighters. I think it's a niche genre at best now, but the games that are coming out are more exciting to me than ten thousand Street Fighter or World Heroes games. I'm a lot more worried about 3D fighters, honestly; if Soul Calibur 4 sucks as bad as it just might then I don't know what I'll do.
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As for racing sims: I really shouldn't like them at all. I pretty much do not care at all about cars. I never have. People talk about trucks and cars in real life I pretty much go braindead at the conversation. But, a long while ago when I got my PS1, I really really got into Gran Turismo. I loved that game to death. I never did buy GT3 or 4, but I'm interested in starting the GT kick again, so when I had a coupon I just ordered GT5: Prologue. (It was free, pretty much). So, we'll see how that goes.
I do have a pretty big semi-aversion to first person shooters. I do like playing co-op, but I just hate playing single player in most of them. I suck a lot at them first off, most of the time the stories don't really drag me in, and I really just flat out dislike the first person view. I fucking hate the lack of peripheral vision. I'm pretty sure if every FPS was magically turned into a third person shooter, I'd have played pretty near all of them. Oh well.
One of the cool things about different countries is that they spell things differently. This isn't exactly Linguistic Variation, but it's very similar and the principle is essentially the same. Honour is a British variant of the American honor. Sure, Medal of Honor is a proper noun, which means there should be one standard spelling, but you seriously don't have to call someone out when they didn't even spell something incorrectly for their region.
I would consider DMC, God of War, God Hand, etc... to be beat 'em ups. They're just not 2d anymore, although Viewtiful Joe is a pretty popular 2d beat 'em up and that is a pretty recent title.
You can say that Beat 'Em Ups became action games, but they're very different from each other. Again, Beat 'Em Ups were closely linked to their multiplayer. Golden Axe, Streets of Rage, Final Fight, Aliens Vs Predator, Dungeons and Dragons, all of those games were all about the multiplayer.
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Also, based on your criteria, how would you classify a game like Comix Zone? I would call it a beat 'em up, but it isn't multiplayer (if I remember correctly).
I think action games existed, too. There were single player action games going way back. But they were different from Beat 'Em Ups, and everyone knew it.
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Isn't there an IL-2 Sturmovik sequel coming out on PC? Not the console one, but a PC only one.
I think your definition is too narrow. These are games where you spend 80-90% of your time wailing on enemies up close and personal (with a little platforming/exploration thrown in to keep things from getting stale). Sure, they might not be identical to Streets of Rage, but do they have to be? And hey, if you really want a beat-em-up old school style, you can always pick up The Red Star for dirt cheap.
Different things for different people. I'd argue that N+ is subtly, but noticeably better than N (the indie PC version you played) in control and level design. Plus multiplayer is loads of fun. Personally, I feel like the reason that N+ is such a great game is that it's pure gameplay: fantastic control that lets you do some incredible moves once you've mastered and level after level of wonderfully designed rooms with no boring hub levels or story to interrupt the flow.
Well, R-Type got a Strategy/RPG spin-off recently (yeah, bizarre ain't it) and there's a new 1942 game coming out soon. Also a new Star Soldier caravan mode game came out recently; there's another established series for you.
It's not that fighters have been getting more niche, it's that they've split off into multiple genres - highly technical fighters like Guilty Gear and pick-up-and play games like Super Smash Bros. Brawl & Naruto Gekitou Ninja Taisen - and those genres are further split up between 2D & 3D gameplay. 2D fighters more niche? Brawl is easily the most popular fighter these days (and one of the most popular games period) & it has 2D gameplay and is easy to pick up.
Oh and BTW I hear the Williams Wii pinball game is fantastic.
In any case, yes, if you have very narrow restrictions and definitions on what a genre is, then yes, genres are dying all the time. If your definition of a shmup is a game that's part of a long running series that doesn't involve bullet hell or dual analog stick control, then yeah, the genre might be dying, but in the meantime, I'll be enjoying an enhanced version of one of the best shmups of all time (Ikaruga XBLA), a great Forgotten World-esque shmup (Omega Five), a fantastic 4-player party shmup (Heavy Weapon), one of the best remakes of all time to one of the true gaming classics (Space Invaders Extreme), a shmup crossed with Katamari Damacy combined with user-editing tools (Blast Works), a puzzle/shmup (Triggerheart Exelica), an excellent bullet hell shmup (Castle of Shikigami 3), an artsy/musicy shmup (Everyday Shooter), and oh, half a dozen dual stick shmups for good measure. And that's just counting games on the current generation of consoles.
Very few genres are dying. Genres evolve, they try new things, they mix elements of other genres together, they change in popularity, but genres very rarely just flat out die. If you think that there is less variety in games now than there was in the past, well, maybe you're just letting your nostalgia get the better of you.
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I'm also not big on RTS games for reasons similar to the above. It always feels like the whole "tactical" element gets a bit lost when you add the elements of reaction time and AI idiocy into the mix. I'm a fan of tactics games, don't get me wrong, but more along the lines of Disgaea where I have full control of my units and can see the entire battle at all times.
SHMUPS are something else. There are a lot of them about, and I'm including bullet-hells, but I don't see them out there like other games. They're either indie, VC, or XBLA, with a few on the DS for measure. A new 1942, though, that'd be sweet.
SSB is not a fighting game by any definition I recognize. It's a multiplayer action game, and I'd be more comfortable calling it a Beat 'Em Up than I would a fighting game. I'll grant you a few of those Naruto games, but only partially. They're one notch above SSB, in my opinion. And I worry about the state of traditional 3D fighters.
N, or N+. Well, I loved almost everything about it. The concept, the art, the stages, interface. I could not stand the gameplay. The jumping was so floaty and loose. Even after I'd gotten two thirds through the game I still couldn't stand the physics; I knew that 95% of my deaths were because the game. I just like my platformers to have some weight, like a MMX/Z game. But that's just me.
And I don't think my definitions are too narrow. Some types of games just aren't around anymore. I can bemoan the death of the X-Wing/TIE Fighter series, and then you can bring up the Rogue Squadron games. They aren't the same. You do the same things in each, but the games are fundamentally different. The same for the old Golden Axe games and what's being revealed about the new one. They're not the same.
Anyways, I'm going to bed.
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You forgot something. Pinball.
I guess you didn't see my thread. =>You don't know what you're missing!<=
With regards to PC shmups, do yourself a favour and look up the following:
Cho Ren Sha
Blue Wish Resurrection
Warning Forever
ABA Games such as rRootage, Torus Trooper, and Tumiki Fighters (and its successor Blast Works for Wii)
G-Type
As for platformers, prepare to salivate and await its release (whenever that is).
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I WILL NOT BE DOING 3DS FOR NWC THREAD. SOMEONE ELSE WILL HAVE TO TAKE OVER.
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TATSUNOKO VS CAPCOM: 1935-2070-9123
Nintendo DS:
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I feel bad because it really is no fun when you don't understand those things, and it doesn't have to be that way. Sims get a bad rap for appearing to be difficult to get into, and it's a shame because there's a lot of enjoyment to be had when things finally click.
I don't know, maybe you just have to like cars and racing. :?
Now listen son, you're American so I'll forgive you, but until the language you speak has the same name as your nationality, you don't get to correct my spelling.
I rely on demos for that, of course. Who has the money to experiment at $60 a pop?
For the most part, though, I gravitate towards the games I know will be sure things for me. The most recent time I did not was with Super Mario Galaxy. I don't like 3D platformers at all, but the word of mouth was so awesome I went right out and bought it.
ADORED that game.
Personally, and to answer your question, I'm a fan of generally all genres of games. There may be some genres that I'm not huge on, but there will be a few games within that genre that I really enjoy. I think you're limiting yourself, and your enjoyment if you feel the need to classify games based on genres before you consider playing them.
I tried it, but on my PC I only have a gamepad and when the training section tells you to gently squeeze the brake... well, I crashed into some walls. I'll keep it around if I ever find a cheap racing wheel, but given the prices I'm seeing I don't know if that's very likely.
Yes - Battle of Britain. No one is really sure when it'll be coming out though, it's been "close to release" for years.
Also, to all of those despairing about the lack of flight sims, if you aren't playing IL2, you're doing yourselves a disservice. It's a fantastic game, the community is still very active and the graphics and physics have been updated through numerous patches so it hardly shows its age.
I do have Falcon 4.0: Allied Force to work through though. Do I really need to huge combat flight sims taking up large chunks of my backlog?
This just brings up the argument that people who exclusively play sports games aren't "gamers" at all - they are "people who play sports games"
Sorry? So I guess all the top athletes in any given sport aren't athlete's at all, because a true athlete would play all the good sports, right?
Did you consider how incongruous what you said is with all the hardcore gamers out there practicing and playing one game, competitively, for hours a day? Bit presumptuous...
I've been well chuffed recently, they are popping up every other week.
I actually have way too many SHMUPS to work through right now, getting kinda burnt out on them.
Yeah I'd agree with that to a certain extent, but only for side-scrolling 2D brawlers, there are plenty of 3D games. Can't wait for Castle Crashers!