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Heller Affirmed - SCOTUS Upholds 2nd Amendment Individual Right Determination
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From what I can tell I'm in support of the decision. But man is Peeking setting off my retard alarm. Obama explicitly said he thinks that 2nd Amendment rights are by the individual, which should not be fundamentally at odds with 2nd Amendment proponents.
This. It's illegal scream "Fire!" in a crowded theater despite the First Amendment. So now that this is on the books what are technically classified as "arms"? Because you sure as hell can't acquire mortars, armor piercing rounds, stinger missiles, or drum-fed grenade launchers (or any weapon that would actually be effective against a modern army) legally, does that abridge the Second Amendment now? Where do they go from here with regards to classifications and restrictions?
He said he wanted to ban the sale of semi-automatic weapons, which I think is a pretty aggressive and unreasonable restriction. Stupid head. This ruling will also allow lawsuits to be filed against other cities. You can expect them shortly.
My impression is that the status quo is maintained with regards to that. From what I can tell is the decision is "individuals have the right to guns, and the government can still regulate those rights." I'd have to read the case to nail that down beyond speculation though.
[Citation needed]
For some reason I'm thinking that the supposed ban on semi-automatic weapons is far more limited than what you are implying, or that he has backed off on it since then. But I'm not seeing a widespread ban on semi-automatic weapons happening anytime soon in America.
Actually, in the last thread about gun control, people argued that clause non-stop. And that's probably the most important thing to come out of this case.
http://www.votesmart.org/
Edited the link in for you, Savant. Do people not frequent this site anymore?
Yes it is important, but unlike Roe v. Wade it doesn't change the status quo. It just provides explicit precedent for it. The militia interpretation didn't have enough legs on its own to do much in our political environment unless the SCOTUS had given support for it, even if the gun opponents desired otherwise.
Well, today's SCOTUS ruling sets a pretty clear roadmap (or clear by 2nd Amendment jurisprudence standards, anyway), since not only does Scalia (of all people) state that individual Constitutional rights aren't beyond restricting, he explicitly states that this ruling doesn't invalidate pretty much any federal gun control law except the DC ban, and also explicitly refuses to incorporate the 2nd Amendment to the states. He also makes the rather odd claim that the 2nd Amendment right of individual gun ownership is limited to the types of firearms available when the Constitution was adopted.
So yeah, I doubt this ruling is going to lead to people buying bazookas at the Quik-E-Mart anytime soon.
It was basically the SC saying "fuck you" to all of the anti-gun people arguing over commas, and militias. It's nothing radical, it's just recognizing that guns are necessary for reasons other than being in a militia.
It's not really a fuck you, it's more of a "well fine okay we'll go ahead and interpret this shit we've been avoiding forever, don't yell at us, GOSH"
So... people have a right to own muskets and cannons?
He's actually re-affirming an earlier SCOTUS ruling that allows the federales to ban machine guns and other "dangerous and unusual weapons", but "in common use at the time" struck me as a bit odd.
Of course, knowing Scalia, when the NRA sues for the right to own a surface-to-air missile, he'll agree with them because that weapon is not dangerous and unusual, unlike, say, a bazooka that shoots venomous toads.
The part where you said the government wants to kill us all. Or something.
Umaro - I like your avatar.
Now I'm picturing Antonin Scalia doing the dance routine from Napoleon Dynamite.
Stop being so gosh darn pessimistic, the supply lines for extra arms and equipment are already established thanks to the black market which would change to bring in heavier equipment. The guns we have now are just the FOUNDATION of a greater force like in an FPS when you start with a crowbar and pistol but upgrade to the BFG5000. If a Humvee can be taken out with an IED well all of us have the resources in our own homes to make some nasty explosives. Common guerrilla tactics would work well in urban and rural environments, and there are enough armchair generals and Starcraft vets out there to lead us to victory.
Come on guys, we could DO this! All we need is to stay upbeat and upload anti-government videos onto Youtube and we'd be set! Pffh the entire US military vs. 1/3rd of the American population? Easy as pie.
If you ever need to talk to someone, feel free to message me. Yes, that includes you.
I really doubt that much of the remainder of the Bill of Rights is going to be incorporated if it hasn't been by now. All thats left is the 2d, 3rd, and parts of the 6th and 7th.
Is two really that much more subtle than one?
...14th amendment.
Scalia strongly implied it wouldn't be incorporated if they ever had to rule directly on that issue
Honestly, in the general case (and not this exaggerated hyperbole case of two per year), I don't see what the problem is with requiring a training course and a license to own a gun. I mean, we already do it for concealed carry in almost every state. I wouldn't want someone driving a car if they didn't know which pedal was the brake, or how right-of-way worked, and I don't want someone owning a gun if they don't know good trigger discipline or to use the fucking safety. I'm not talking a stringent marksmanship test here, I'm talking basic shit like the four rules of how to handle a weapon.
Doesn't strictly incorporate the entirety of the Bill of Rights.
Medopine: I haven't had time to read through the entire opinion yet, but that doesn't surprise me. Scalia is really put between a rock and a hard place when it comes to states rights vs. stuff he doesn't like (gun control in this case).
It's kind of sad though that with today's court you aren't trying a case before a panel of nine justices. You're trying it in front of just Justice Kennedy. The other 8 have already made up their minds before it even gets to oral arguments. (Though Scalia can be an exception, he does rule contrary to traditional conservative values especially in 4th amendment cases, see Kyllo.)
How is two per year hyperbole? We've already had examples of zero per year, therefore effectively making licensing a ban.
I don't think most people would oppose a general license, as long as it was cheap. The problem is the above.
Mark my words.
No, no, didn't you hear? Tomorrow morning, violent crime in D.C. just stops. Like that.
Unless they're zombies. Or vampires.
I own both.
I think you should be a member of a state certified group to have a gun.
As for the licenses, it's constitutional as long as you don't need to have a gun to get the license, which was decided by SCOTUS when the policy was applied to cannabis.
Now, after wading through ten pages of horseshit on a subject I feel strongly about, I need some answers to some questions.
What's the big deal about gun control? All it does is control the law-abiding citizens and enforces laws that law-abiding citizens follow. HOLY SHIT! A criminal does not care about the law. If they are thinking about committing a crime, are in the act of committing a crime, or have committed a crime, then they are, in fact, a criminal. What tool they use is irrelevant. Yes, they could use a knife, a firearm, or a fucking dildo. It does not matter. Somewhere, along the way, they decided they were going to do something wrong and they were going to use a tool to make the job more effective.
Now, as far as gun ownership goes, and how it would work in a perfect world. All law-abiding citizens own firearms, receive their training from all manners of different classes they pay for, and no criminals or mentally unstable own any firearms. Sure, we fill out that 4473 form, and answer those 12 questions truthfully. Some won't. And then that clerk will call it in to the NICS and it takes about ten minutes to clear up. If we can keep guns out of the hands of criminals and the insane, great, it works! You should have to get a license to own a fucking firearm. In the great United States of America, it is a guaranteed right that you may own a firearm so long as you are not some sort of fucking nut-job criminal. My license to own a firearm was issued 12/15/1791. There should be no other questions about that. I shouldn't have to register my firearms or my ammunition so the government can keep tabs on that. I do it well enough on my own and it is none of their business. Just like it is none of their business how many DVD's, books, magazines, beer cans, or porno's that I own. You may say it's different, I believe otherwise. No criminal intent here, but if you can feel that bile rise up in your throat over, say, the Fed's listening in on people without warrants, then what's the difference?
CHL. The Concealed Handgun License. A great concept, a beautiful system, and even better, encourages responsible gun ownership, training, handling, and more importantly, provides to the overall security of those that receive theirs! I know, it's amazing. Something that let's a citizen carry a firearm, concealed, adds to the security of everybody else, as a whole? Balderdash, you say. The intent of the course, is to stress that, using firearms is a last resort defense method. It is not about pulling your gun out over some asshole taking your parking spot. But let's say you take that asshole's parking spot, and for whatever reason, he flips out. You weigh 110 pounds wet, top off at about 5'5", and you have some enraged dillhole about 6'5", 270 pounds banging on your vehicle trying to drag you out. Are you going to reason with him? Should you? Do you believe that people have a right to be assaulted, robbed, raped, or murdered simply because they lack the body type, training, etc, to fight off an assailant without a handgun? I hope not. The CHL pretty much guarantees that you must be a law-abiding citizen, because you're treated to sending your application off to your state department and they send it off to the FBI for several weeks of background checks and review. And what criminal would go through the trouble of legally applying for a license to carry a firearm, instead of just breaking the fucking law like they tend to do, and carry it without the license, concealed or unconcealed?
Waiting periods aren't much good, sure, they can be used to deter a crime of passion! That's only if they don't already own a gun or aren't resolved to beat somebody's head in with a ball peen hammer! The majority of people that don't want you to own handguns live in their own special world, have an army of heavily armed bodyguards who get to carry handguns, and really don't care for the common folk. By trying to take guns out of the hands of the citizenry, it's like saying "We support rapists, robbers, murderers, abusers, kidnappers, etc." Having the means to defend yourself shouldn't be illegal. Leveling the field because that bad guy you're up against outweighs you by a deuce and a half and he has a knife. But he doesn't know you have that Smith and Wesson Model 642 in your pocket/purse. He will though, soon enough. If somebody breaks into my home, for whatever nefarious reasons, the first thing I'm doing is loading my shotgun. At the same time, I'm on the phone with the police. After that, I play it by ear. I have done my part by reporting the crime. I will do whatever necessary to defend family/life/and least of all property. Police response time varies. There are a number of reasons. Best thing you can do is be self-sufficient. Not to mention, a good portion of crimes are deterred because criminals believe their victim to be armed. Even more crimes are deterred with the firearm being drawn and not fired. This would take considerable restraint. However, the way some laws are written, you would be arrested for brandishing a firearm. Ridiculous.
You say that you can't understand the Americans' point of view regarding firearms. Neither can I. I've been hunting since I was 5, and enjoy target shooting. I enjoy cleaning my firearms. It's a great way to spend the day, where otherwise it would be spent on the computer getting worked up over what some prick says online. I don't know where the attraction is. Well, I do, but if you don't understand it already, you really wouldn't until you went and enjoyed a day of shooting at the range.
The problem does not lie with firearms. We can make all the laws and require people jump through hoops of fire to acquire those firearms. Those that intend to do wrong will do it with whatever tool makes it easier. They will not go through the trouble of getting that firearm legally. Why should they? They're already criminals and have intent to break the law. The real problem is what is wrong with our society. If we could fix the problems we have with our society, maybe all these violent deaths wouldn't be a big concern. But people have been killing each other for thousands of fucking years, don't expect anything to change suddenly. The criminals in DC already have firearms, the citizens should have them to defend themselves. The more capable a person is at defending themself or their family, the less likely they will ever be a statistic or a victim.
Feel free to nitpick this post to death and argue with me about it. I don't think we would make any headway if you don't see merit in some of my points. Then again I'm half-delirious from lack of sleep, so I'm surprised if any of it makes for coherent reading. I'm more than willing to discuss these though.
If you were being troubled by somebody with ill-meaning, whatever it may be, and you weren't armed, and all your pleading and cooperation, and things weren't going the way you thought it would, and I had happened to be witnessing this or passing by, you can be damned sure I'd help your sorry ass out. Armed or not. Just because it would be wrong to go about my business and do nothing.