It's like, oh, one bad guy, I should use my sniper rifle.
Two bad guys, grenade.
Three bad guys, the most terrible weapon mankind has ever conceived.
I'm not even a big fanatic for realism, but nukes have some pretty goddamn entrenched notions about them in this day and age, and using them to mow your lawn seems to be an underestimation.
Meh.
If they'd just called it Big Fat Petrol Filled Rocket Propelled Grenade we wouldn't even care, we'd be all like 'Wow look at that crazy weapon, it is blowing stuff up in a bigger than normal fashion, yay!'.
But it's a very very small nuke so instead we're all 'This is serious business ok guys, it's explosive capacity is not congruent with normative expectations hence things are very very bad.'
I don't think it's too much to ask that if they've got a Davey Crocket like device then they at least try to make it a bit more impressive than the standard rocket launcher you see in any other game.
The rest of the weapons in the demo? Shotguns and rifles? Looked awesome in VATS. This? I can't say it looked all that impressive for what it's supposed to be.
Pockets can be picked just like in Oblivion, but you can put items in someone's pants in addition to taking them. So while this means that you run into the chance of getting into a fight with someone should you go snooping on their person (NPCs will get combative and take things back if they catch you stealing), it also means that you can drop a grenade in their pants and turn them into a walking explosives device if you're tricky enough. Good times indeed.
:twisted:
I love how many people are amazed at this option when it was one of the best things about Fallout 1 and 2, and I can't think of another game that allows it.
I... didn't really notice all of these pop culture references that people are saying Fallout 2 is loaded with. I think you may just be remembering a few that really stuck out, but it's not like every line was a movie quote.
Partial list from Wikipedia (which leaves off a ton of stuff, like the prostitute who says "aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?"):
Spoilered for the rubes who haven't played it:
The player can find several Cheesy Poofs boxes throughout the game, a reference to the fictional snack on the cartoon South Park, they can be used to appease one of the mutated rats.
What??? Some of these seem questionable, but this one doesn't make sense to me at all. I would say it is a reference to
cheetos. Besides when did South Park even come out? Wasn't it years after Fallout 2?
(don't really think this needs to be spoilered but since you spoilered yours)
I'm officially more excited than when I first saw the D3 video. Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Darius Black on
Quick, quiet, confident
Comfortable, permanent
Undisputed, every tense
Not a trace of what went left
More equal than the best
Unparalleled success
Everybody, V-impressed
Pockets can be picked just like in Oblivion, but you can put items in someone's pants in addition to taking them. So while this means that you run into the chance of getting into a fight with someone should you go snooping on their person (NPCs will get combative and take things back if they catch you stealing), it also means that you can drop a grenade in their pants and turn them into a walking explosives device if you're tricky enough. Good times indeed.
:twisted:
I love how many people are amazed at this option when it was one of the best things about Fallout 1 and 2, and I can't think of another game that allows it.
In today's FPS' like Crysis, it's to put remote detonated on cars, get dumbasses to chase you, then blow the charge.
But yeah... a live pinned grenade in someone's pocket? One of a kind thing.
That's pretty much how you get the third PA in F2 IIRC. Wait for the guy to get his shipment then put a plastic in his pocket.
But why are we focusing so much on combat? That Gamesradar preview was chock full of interesting story interactions and fallout was always a game that balanced both that and the combat so well, which is what made it so enjoyable. I hope the story has a good pace to it like FO 1 & 2. Oblivion dragged and bored the hell out of me with it's Ye Olde Monologues Being a True And Accurate Depiction Of The Past 9000 Years Of Human History As We Believe It To Be So. Fallout lends itself to substantially more immediacy in the storyline so hopefully I won't have to trawl through that mess with FO3.
Because that is all that bethesda has been focusing on, and some of use aren't convinced that they can actually find a good balance. If you thought obilivion had too much text, and are the type of person their targeting...D:
A portable nuke launcher developed in the 50s. It appeared in Metal Gear Solid 3. It's one of those tongue-in-cheeck crazy 50s inventions, which both MGS 3 and Fallout thrives on. Thus, it's practically perfect for the Fallout universe, and it easily could have been in the other games, but I guess they couldn't animate a nuke in-game back then.
Only now it's called the Fat Man, which also fits the theme.
Fallout is a world where nuclear fission and fusion were the focus, it would only make sense they'd come up with a better Davy Crockett. Especially in a world ravaged by first world country war. Nuclear war.
It just makes logical sense that you'd have these kinds of weapons developed.
You know that the Davy Crockett was designed for a range of at least over 2 miles right? If you fired it 30 feet away you'd be caught in the blast.
I'm not saying the game is going to be awful and Bethesda is ruining Fallout, on the contrary I think it's going to be awesome, but that doesn't mean I have to like everything about it.
1) 9 stats, better known as S.P.E.C.I.A.L.(Strength, Perception, Endurance, Charisma, Intelligence, Agility, Luck)
2)
No one is safe from a player who decides to go on a psychotic rampage.
1) Nine? :P
2) Except for the NPCs important to the main quest - they'll get up, and forget you just shot them in the head twelve times. Like others, I'm kind of worried about that, and I'd rather you just got a game over screen myself.
1) 9 stats, better known as S.P.E.C.I.A.L.(Strength, Perception, Endurance, Charisma, Intelligence, Agility, Luck)
2)
No one is safe from a player who decides to go on a psychotic rampage.
1) Nine? :P
2) Except for the NPCs important to the main quest - they'll get up, and forget you just shot them in the head twelve times. Like others, I'm kind of worried about that, and I'd rather you just got a game over screen myself.
Why 2?
Did that happen in the Elder Scrolls games?
Also,could you kill all the important people in Fallout?
Pockets can be picked just like in Oblivion, but you can put items in someone's pants in addition to taking them. So while this means that you run into the chance of getting into a fight with someone should you go snooping on their person (NPCs will get combative and take things back if they catch you stealing), it also means that you can drop a grenade in their pants and turn them into a walking explosives device if you're tricky enough. Good times indeed.
:twisted:
I love how many people are amazed at this option when it was one of the best things about Fallout 1 and 2, and I can't think of another game that allows it.
In today's FPS' like Crysis, it's to put remote detonated on cars, get dumbasses to chase you, then blow the charge.
But yeah... a live pinned grenade in someone's pocket? One of a kind thing.
That's pretty much how you get the third PA in F2 IIRC. Wait for the guy to get his shipment then put a plastic in his pocket.
But there was someone in this very thread complaining about that. I guess even Fallout isn't Fallout enough anymore. :P
Is anyone curious at what the Enclave will be up to in this game?
They got wiped out for the most part after you detonated that nuke, so did the patrols that were out reform the government or something?
Maybe they had a shadow government on the East Coast.
Makes sense for the government to split up and hide in several areas. I'm sure since the East Coast was probably going to be completely atomized the most important group (with the prez) went west.
1) 9 stats, better known as S.P.E.C.I.A.L.(Strength, Perception, Endurance, Charisma, Intelligence, Agility, Luck)
2)
No one is safe from a player who decides to go on a psychotic rampage.
1) Nine? :P
2) Except for the NPCs important to the main quest - they'll get up, and forget you just shot them in the head twelve times. Like others, I'm kind of worried about that, and I'd rather you just got a game over screen myself.
Why 2?
Did that happen in the Elder Scrolls games?
Also,could you kill all the important people in Fallout?
There was a video earlier of someone "killing" a few people at a dinner party that would stand up like nothing was wrong a few seconds later. In Fallout, as I recall the only restrictions were the Overseer in FO1 (he'd absolutely destroy you with two miniguns if you tried to attack him) and Frank Horrigan the first time you see him (scripted sequence).
The thing is, if it's a character vital to the central quest, either make him practically unassailable ingame (i.e. Frank Horrigan's armor, the Overseer's miniguns) or give the player a Game Over screen. If all he does is stand up afterwards, I'd expect him to attack me, or at the very least, not want to talk to me any more - both of which are essentially the same result as a Game Over anyway - and if he treats me normally, it's completely immersion-shattering.
Bethesda just put the system in to make sure you couldn't make the game impossible to win. They've said they cut down on the number of immortal NPCs, probably to only a few really important to the main quest (I'd guess the player's father, but one of the interviews said you could be a jerk to him, so maybe not...)
Essentially it's the same thing as Frank Horrigan and the Overseer, only this time you *can* 'kill' them, temporarily-ish.
Yeah seems kind of lame to me. Luckily I don't really run around killing people for no reason so it won't be a big issue. Seems like a bit of a cop-out though.
edit: referring to the unconscious quest people, not the hot dog fucking.
I noticed that a dog is going to be included as an NPC.
Can anyone confirm the rumours that you will also be able to engage in hot fucking with said dog? I think it would be a bit immersion breaking if not as this is a post-apocalyptic world after all and it's likely that put in said environment one might seek carnal compensation from one's animal companions.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited July 2008
Bethesda just put the system in to make sure you couldn't make the game impossible to win.
Then perhaps players need to stop randomly killing certain characters? Or - heaven forbid - they don't make characters who are easily randomly killed important? Why not instead have the same information attained an entirely separate way instead - oh wait, that takes actual game design.
No you will not be able to bone the dog and yes it will be a mod and no I don't think anyone wants that mod and yes I might install it just to see what it's like and no I won't like it and yes I'll uninstall it right after that.
I noticed that a dog is going to be included as an NPC.
Can anyone confirm the rumours that you will also be able to engage in hot fucking with said dog? I think it would be a bit immersion breaking if not as this is a post-apocalyptic world after all and it's likely that put in said environment one might seek carnal compensation from one's animal companions.
It looks like the post at the top of this page already covered this!
Oh come on. How many games can you irrevocably kill story-critical characters? It's not bad game design, that's just asinine bullshit. It's a computer game, it doesn't need to allow you to do every single thing you could possibly do in the real world. The point of computer games isn't to be able to do whatever you want, it's to put you in interesting situations and see how you solve them within the rules of the game world.
It's not bad game design just because they didn't design the game you want.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited July 2008
How many games can you irrevocably kill story-critical characters?
Ok, that's one (and one which, and this is a might controversial, isn't actually a terribly well designed game. For starters it has a horrifically high learning curve). Any more?
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Ok, that's one (and one which, and this is a might controversial, isn't actually a terribly well designed game. For starters it has a horrifically high learning curve). Any more?
Yes, see above, including the two games this is supposedly a "sequel" to.
Also, Morrowind is a fuckload better than Oblivion.
Edit: I also just realised, Deus Ex: Invisible War. The exceptions are NPCs in bars (because weapons are deactivated) and a couple of other similar situations. You can kill literally every NPC in the game otherwise without being rendered unable to finish. The game is complete shit though.
So what's the justification when the guy gets up? That he was just knocked out, right? Except you fucking did it to him, so why the hell would he talk to you afterwards, let alone give you quests, help you, or really do anything other than shoot you or run away?
I'm glad they're mitigating the problem by only having a couple of impervious NPCs - but it remains a cop-out solution instead of an internally consistent one.
Ok, that's one (and one which, and this is a might controversial, isn't actually a terribly well designed game. For starters it has a horrifically high learning curve). Any more?
Yes, see above, including the two games this is supposedly a "sequel" to.
Also, Morrowind is a fuckload better than Oblivion.
That depends entirely on your perspective. Morrowind, as I say, has a horrifically hard learning curve. Oblivion is a lot more accessible and FUN for a lot more people than Morrowind was.
Fallout 1 and 2 have certain storyline characters who are invincible.
Baldurs gate 1 and 2 I'm not sure about, didn't play them enough to fully explore how much you could break it by killing people.
So ok, we've got 5 games here. Actually, three, maybe.
Edit: Ok, four with Deus Ex:IW. I mean, if you really want to use the WORST EVER GAME in defence of your argument.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited July 2008
Fallout 1 and 2 have certain storyline characters who are invincible.
Fallout has only the overseer and 2 has Horrigan for one encounter. Beyond this you are capable of killing everything that moves, wiping out your village in the second game does [IIRC] end in a game over but it's been a long time since I've actually done that (but you can still do it). But you're wrong, you can slaughter any quest related NPC in either game (excepting the Overseer who usually kills you in Fallout) without being rendered incapable of finishing the game. It's just much harder.
The Baldurs Gate games have some NPCs who just kill you very quick if you try to kill them. I think they are just some ungodly level, but it's apparently possible to still kill them.
Fallout 1 and 2 have certain storyline characters who are invincible.
Which ones are invincible, again?
The overseer because he kills you almost instantly.
Horrigan because he turns up and then leaves before you can do anything.
This really isn't a very impressive list and one is justified perfectly in game (those miniguns are hardcore) and the other is just one of those things.
There are no other invincible NPCs or characters in either game.
Fallout 1 and 2 have certain storyline characters who are invincible.
Which ones are invincible, again?
The overseer because he kills you almost instantly.
Horrigan because he turns up and then leaves before you can do anything.
This really isn't a very impressive list and one is justified perfectly in game (those miniguns are hardcore) and the other is just one of those things.
There are no other invincible NPCs or characters in either game.
That's my point - I was the one that made the post about Horrigan and the Overseer before. Neither of those two characters is invincible - like you said, the Overseer just shreds you in seconds, and you aren't allowed to move when you see Horrigan.
Morrowind let you kill vital storyline NPCs, but doing so broke the main quest (you could still technically 'win' through a backdoor victory, though)
For Fallout 1 and 2, I'm pretty sure you can't kill 'everyone', as people have mentioned Frank Horrigan and the Overseer repeatedly as being invulnerable.
I dunno about the Baldur Gates, but if I'd have to guess, you can't kill 'everyone' either.
Same thing with Deus Ex Invisible War. There are still certain areas where you can't kill people, i.e: you can't kill 'everyone'.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Fallout 1 and 2 have certain storyline characters who are invincible.
Which ones are invincible, again?
The overseer because he kills you almost instantly.
Horrigan because he turns up and then leaves before you can do anything.
This really isn't a very impressive list and one is justified perfectly in game (those miniguns are hardcore) and the other is just one of those things.
There are no other invincible NPCs or characters in either game.
That's my point - I was the one that made the post about Horrigan and the Overseer before. Neither of those two characters is invincible - like you said, the Overseer just shreds you in seconds, and you aren't allowed to move when you see Horrigan.
Actually, IIRC, the Overseer is unkillable as well. If you cheat and use a few tricks, I think that you can do hideous amounts of damage to him and he won't actually die. But again, it's been a LONG time since I've done this. I exterminated every NPC in Morrowind and in Fallout, including everyone in the Vault (only exception being the Overseer because one mistake and I was dead) so there isn't anyone else.
For Fallout 1 and 2, I'm pretty sure you can't kill 'everyone',
Again, yes, yes you can. The only exception in Fallout 2 is Horrigan and that's because it's technically a shittily done cutscene.
Same thing with Deus Ex Invisible War. There are still certain areas where you can't kill people, i.e: you can't kill 'everyone'.
Actually yes you can in any place you have a weapon. Not a single NPC who you can shoot however is invincible for any reason. There is nobody invincible to bullets, except for bugs.
Except for the people in your starting village. That's a game over. So you can't actually kill 'everyone' and still play the game.
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you people? Is genocide that important to you? This is not a big deal. This should not be that important to you, whether you can kill everyone or if you can only kill 99.9% of the people.
Ok, so being generous, you have five games. Admittedly good games (well, four out of five, the fifth being a monstrous abomination). But to say that invincible NPCs is bad game design is still just mental, considering all the brilliant games (some of which are patently better than any of the games listed) that you specifically can't kill NPCs, especially storyline NPCs.
It is possible to design brilliant games with invincible NPCs and there are situations where killable NPCs could be considered BAD game design.
Shit, it's actually kind of bad game design in most of your examples, because it results in the quest getting broken which isn't really all that fun if your here to complete the quest. It's even worse if it's designed as such that it isn't immediately apparent that killing this guy is going to prematurely end your fun.
Oblivion is perhaps the only exception I'd be prepared to make just to make those boring sods shut the hell up and I couldn't care less about their stupid quests anyway.
Posts
I don't think it's too much to ask that if they've got a Davey Crocket like device then they at least try to make it a bit more impressive than the standard rocket launcher you see in any other game.
The rest of the weapons in the demo? Shotguns and rifles? Looked awesome in VATS. This? I can't say it looked all that impressive for what it's supposed to be.
Comfortable, permanent
Undisputed, every tense
Not a trace of what went left
More equal than the best
Unparalleled success
Everybody, V-impressed
In today's FPS' like Crysis, it's to put remote detonated on cars, get dumbasses to chase you, then blow the charge.
But yeah... a live pinned grenade in someone's pocket? One of a kind thing.
That's pretty much how you get the third PA in F2 IIRC. Wait for the guy to get his shipment then put a plastic in his pocket.
Because that is all that bethesda has been focusing on, and some of use aren't convinced that they can actually find a good balance. If you thought obilivion had too much text, and are the type of person their targeting...D:
I'm not saying the game is going to be awful and Bethesda is ruining Fallout, on the contrary I think it's going to be awesome, but that doesn't mean I have to like everything about it.
Maybe they had a shadow government on the East Coast.
2) Except for the NPCs important to the main quest - they'll get up, and forget you just shot them in the head twelve times. Like others, I'm kind of worried about that, and I'd rather you just got a game over screen myself.
Why 2?
Did that happen in the Elder Scrolls games?
Also,could you kill all the important people in Fallout?
But there was someone in this very thread complaining about that. I guess even Fallout isn't Fallout enough anymore. :P
In the g4 gameplay walkthrough they mentioned a shadow goverment, and something about a "president"
Makes sense for the government to split up and hide in several areas. I'm sure since the East Coast was probably going to be completely atomized the most important group (with the prez) went west.
The thing is, if it's a character vital to the central quest, either make him practically unassailable ingame (i.e. Frank Horrigan's armor, the Overseer's miniguns) or give the player a Game Over screen. If all he does is stand up afterwards, I'd expect him to attack me, or at the very least, not want to talk to me any more - both of which are essentially the same result as a Game Over anyway - and if he treats me normally, it's completely immersion-shattering.
EDIT: missed the end of that, ignore me.
Essentially it's the same thing as Frank Horrigan and the Overseer, only this time you *can* 'kill' them, temporarily-ish.
Best top post or bestest top post?
edit: referring to the unconscious quest people, not the hot dog fucking.
Can anyone confirm the rumours that you will also be able to engage in hot fucking with said dog? I think it would be a bit immersion breaking if not as this is a post-apocalyptic world after all and it's likely that put in said environment one might seek carnal compensation from one's animal companions.
Then perhaps players need to stop randomly killing certain characters? Or - heaven forbid - they don't make characters who are easily randomly killed important? Why not instead have the same information attained an entirely separate way instead - oh wait, that takes actual game design.
Nevermind.
edit: haha, it's your post, that's even better.
It's not bad game design just because they didn't design the game you want.
Morrowind.
And Fallout and Fallout 2.
And Baldurs Gate.
Possibly Baldurs Gate 2, but I am not 100% sure.
Yes, see above, including the two games this is supposedly a "sequel" to.
Also, Morrowind is a fuckload better than Oblivion.
Edit: I also just realised, Deus Ex: Invisible War. The exceptions are NPCs in bars (because weapons are deactivated) and a couple of other similar situations. You can kill literally every NPC in the game otherwise without being rendered unable to finish. The game is complete shit though.
I'm glad they're mitigating the problem by only having a couple of impervious NPCs - but it remains a cop-out solution instead of an internally consistent one.
That depends entirely on your perspective. Morrowind, as I say, has a horrifically hard learning curve. Oblivion is a lot more accessible and FUN for a lot more people than Morrowind was.
Fallout 1 and 2 have certain storyline characters who are invincible.
Baldurs gate 1 and 2 I'm not sure about, didn't play them enough to fully explore how much you could break it by killing people.
So ok, we've got 5 games here. Actually, three, maybe.
Edit: Ok, four with Deus Ex:IW. I mean, if you really want to use the WORST EVER GAME in defence of your argument.
Fallout has only the overseer and 2 has Horrigan for one encounter. Beyond this you are capable of killing everything that moves, wiping out your village in the second game does [IIRC] end in a game over but it's been a long time since I've actually done that (but you can still do it). But you're wrong, you can slaughter any quest related NPC in either game (excepting the Overseer who usually kills you in Fallout) without being rendered incapable of finishing the game. It's just much harder.
The Baldurs Gate games have some NPCs who just kill you very quick if you try to kill them. I think they are just some ungodly level, but it's apparently possible to still kill them.
The overseer because he kills you almost instantly.
Horrigan because he turns up and then leaves before you can do anything.
This really isn't a very impressive list and one is justified perfectly in game (those miniguns are hardcore) and the other is just one of those things.
There are no other invincible NPCs or characters in either game.
For Fallout 1 and 2, I'm pretty sure you can't kill 'everyone', as people have mentioned Frank Horrigan and the Overseer repeatedly as being invulnerable.
I dunno about the Baldur Gates, but if I'd have to guess, you can't kill 'everyone' either.
Same thing with Deus Ex Invisible War. There are still certain areas where you can't kill people, i.e: you can't kill 'everyone'.
Actually, IIRC, the Overseer is unkillable as well. If you cheat and use a few tricks, I think that you can do hideous amounts of damage to him and he won't actually die. But again, it's been a LONG time since I've done this. I exterminated every NPC in Morrowind and in Fallout, including everyone in the Vault (only exception being the Overseer because one mistake and I was dead) so there isn't anyone else.
Again, yes, yes you can. The only exception in Fallout 2 is Horrigan and that's because it's technically a shittily done cutscene.
Actually yes you can in any place you have a weapon. Not a single NPC who you can shoot however is invincible for any reason. There is nobody invincible to bullets, except for bugs.
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you people? Is genocide that important to you? This is not a big deal. This should not be that important to you, whether you can kill everyone or if you can only kill 99.9% of the people.
It is possible to design brilliant games with invincible NPCs and there are situations where killable NPCs could be considered BAD game design.
Shit, it's actually kind of bad game design in most of your examples, because it results in the quest getting broken which isn't really all that fun if your here to complete the quest. It's even worse if it's designed as such that it isn't immediately apparent that killing this guy is going to prematurely end your fun.
Oblivion is perhaps the only exception I'd be prepared to make just to make those boring sods shut the hell up and I couldn't care less about their stupid quests anyway.