I've become so excited after reading all this I've now booked a day off work to play until my eyes bleed on release day (a Friday over here) and I'm now going to devastate my entire life until then with Fallout 2.
I'm just hoping that the novelty factor doesn't wear off as fast as it did with Oblivion - don't get me wrong I love Fallout and RPG's in general, but *something* just didn't click for me with Oblivion. I'm hoping my anticpation doesn't scupper me with FO3
Level scaling in Oblivion ruined it, oh that and all the NPCs were boring and the only quests that were enjoyable were all Thieves guild and assassins guild.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Level scaling in Oblivion ruined it, oh that and all the NPCs were boring and the only quests that were enjoyable were all Thieves guild and assassins guild.
The hilariously bad AI and its various antics made up for it.
There is nothing better than breaking into someones home, having their dog attack you and then watching them execute their own dog.
I've become so excited after reading all this I've now booked a day off work to play until my eyes bleed on release day (a Friday over here) and I'm now going to devastate my entire life until then with Fallout 2.
I'm just hoping that the novelty factor doesn't wear off as fast as it did with Oblivion - don't get me wrong I love Fallout and RPG's in general, but *something* just didn't click for me with Oblivion. I'm hoping my anticpation doesn't scupper me with FO3
I feel like Oblivion failed primarily on two levels:
-The character advancement system was ass-backwards to where the faster you killed enemies the less powerful you got relative toward them. You had to purposefully hold back your own progress and repeatedly engage in activities even more menial than "grinding" just to keep your character equal in power to the monsters in the game world. It was like the proverbial carrot on the stick, except every time you took one step forward, the carrot advanced two steps ahead unless you rubbed your belly and patted your head while walking.
-The game did a generally poor job of taking advantage of what should have been a rich game world to provide compelling small-and-large scale stories. There were a few memorable quests here and there with actual characters but for the most part it was just tedious, cliched RPG fare.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
The most amusing thing to me is that Mass Effect came out about a year later and did every single thing better than Oblivion. With a brand new setting and nothing but the drawing board to work from, BioWare created a much more compelling game world, with better dialogue, subplots, main storyline, character advancement system, and even graphics.
It still had some tedious cliched crap but at least the vast majority was awesome and the systems weren't completely moronic (simplified though they were). I can't say the same about Oblivion.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
BioShock is no where nearly as open ended as Oblivion. Not even close.
BioShock is no where nearly as open ended as Oblivion. Not even close.
That's a apples to oranges kind of comparison.
I wouldn't really call Oblivion "open ended". All the NPCs are immortal, and all the quests except the main questlines are pointless. There are no mutually exclusive factions to ally with. You can't really *do* anything.
The most amusing thing to me is that Mass Effect came out about a year later and did every single thing better than Oblivion. With a brand new setting and nothing but the drawing board to work from, BioWare created a much more compelling game world, with better dialogue, subplots, main storyline, character advancement system, and even graphics.
Mass Effect did some things better than Oblivion, most noteably the things Bioware is known for -- story, dialogue, and so on. All were outstanding and far and away better than Oblivion. I adore Bioware games for that reason and play them for that reason.
I liked Oblivions character advancement system better. Felt more flexible and like there were a lot more options available to me. And for those of us who like exploration (me!), Oblivion was far and away better than Mass Effect, providing a big, huge world to explore with little in the way of rails. I adore Bethesda games for that reason and play them for that reason.
They're both action-based western RPGs, yes, but they're really very different breeds of game, each with a very different focus.
It's like salt and vinegar chips. They taste as ass but something makes you keep eating.
Agreed. Could I complain about aspects of the game? Sure. I have my complaints and/or nitpicks. Made quite a few of them in the Oblivion threads way back when (level scaling & generic/unvaried world being the two biggest gripes).
But the fact is, I put in about 100 hours on the PC and another 60 or so on the Xbox 360, tried out multiple characters and finished every quest line except for the Fighter's Guild. The game obviously did something right.
On a spectrum, Oblivion is much more open ended than Mass Effect.
And honestly, if you do nothing but the story quests in Oblivion, you're doing yourself a disservice. The Thieves' Guild quests and Dark Brotherhood quests are probably the best lines in the game, and they provide some tangible benefits.
I've played the game for over 80 hours spread out over two characters. I've also never closed the first Kvatch Oblivion gate, ever (because fuck, I don't want Oblivion gates and draemora getting in my way while I'm wandering the countryside). I'd say any game that I can play that long while purposefully ignoring the main portion of it is probably pretty open-ended.
I'm in the middle of Mass Effect, and so far I do prefer it. Yeah, the side quests are uninspired, but for those parts I just pretend I'm playing Starflight in 3D, and they've done a great job creating a game world that I want to know more about and be a part of - something I definitely cannot say about Oblivion.
Fallout 3, on the other hand, is making me blow bubbles in my panties.
I hope the fallout 3 construction set is released soon so that all those great mods can come out right with the launch. I remember on my last playthrough of fallout 2, using a mod that turned my car into the gas truck and another to let me skin fire geckos (because as painful as those bastards are, I should get something for wiping out 20 of them).
Here's the thing. Mass Effect was less open-ended in the sense of roaming wherever you want in the countryside, but it had far better and more meaningful optional side quests in the areas where the main story missions took place. (Granted, the Mako planets were even emptier than Oblivion's countryside.) Furthermore, side quests often had multiple outcomes and decisions that influenced how they played out.
This was rarely the case in Oblivion, and the quests in Oblivion were generally incredibly straight forward and lacked memorable characters, choices, or storylines.
So yeah, Mass Effect at least felt more open-ended to me, in addition to having a great storyline and main quest.
BioWare also took the time to really develop Mass Effect's setting through the codex and character dialogue. I was surprised at the depth they came up with, and considering the setting is supposed to be one of the greatest strengths of a game like Oblivion, it's kind of pathetic that a story-driven game like Mass Effect did a better job in that area.
About Oblivion's character advancement system, I feel like it could have been better than Mass Effect's--it certainly has the complexity to be more interesting. Problem is, Bethesda made a few astoundingly moronic design decisions when coming up with it that basically crippled the entire joy of it for me (and many others, hence the PC version mods fixing their screw-ups).
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
You get a high sneak you're like a god damn ghost that can mysteriously slip live sticks of dynamite into people's pockets.
...
...
...
Man, all this talk about Fallout 3 is making me hanker for some Fallout PNP action. Too bad nobody on earth seems to play.
EDIT: And that dynamite thing made me wonder - is Fallout 3 still going to use that accursed accelerated timescale? Or is it going to finally go to realtime?
You can put explosives in people's pockets with a good Steal skill. You don't need Sneak; just stand behind them.
I concede the points about random encounters and the SMB, however. I wouldn't Tag Sneak, but it is more useful than I gave it credit for.
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Here's the thing. Mass Effect was less open-ended in the sense of roaming wherever you want in the countryside, but it had far better and more meaningful optional side quests in the areas where the main story missions took place. (Granted, the Mako planets were even emptier than Oblivion's countryside.) Furthermore, side quests often had multiple outcomes and decisions that influenced how they played out.
This was rarely the case in Oblivion, and the quests in Oblivion were generally incredibly straight forward and lacked memorable characters, choices, or storylines.
So yeah, Mass Effect at least felt more open-ended to me, in addition to having a great storyline and main quest.
BioWare also took the time to really develop Mass Effect's setting through the codex and character dialogue. I was surprised at the depth they came up with, and considering the setting is supposed to be one of the greatest strengths of a game like Oblivion, it's kind of pathetic that a story-driven game like Mass Effect did a better job in that area.
About Oblivion's character advancement system, I feel like it could have been better than Mass Effect's--it certainly has the complexity to be more interesting. Problem is, Bethesda made a few astoundingly moronic design decisions when coming up with it that basically crippled the entire joy of it for me (and many others, hence the PC version mods fixing their screw-ups).
I agree with a lot of what you said here, but you have to remember that there were exponentially more side quests in Oblivion. Bethesda usually makes the decision to trade quality for quantity, and can have uneven results. The thing is, no other company really makes games on the scale that they do successfully. I've heard Fallout is supposed to be more focused, with unique NPCs and a smaller world, so I'm hoping they'll apply some of the lessons they learned from Oblivion.
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
They're taking fans' perceptions of the Fallout series to heart, it seems, as well.
Here's the thing. Mass Effect was less open-ended in the sense of roaming wherever you want in the countryside, but it had far better and more meaningful optional side quests in the areas where the main story missions took place. (Granted, the Mako planets were even emptier than Oblivion's countryside.) Furthermore, side quests often had multiple outcomes and decisions that influenced how they played out.
This was rarely the case in Oblivion, and the quests in Oblivion were generally incredibly straight forward and lacked memorable characters, choices, or storylines.
So yeah, Mass Effect at least felt more open-ended to me, in addition to having a great storyline and main quest.
BioWare also took the time to really develop Mass Effect's setting through the codex and character dialogue. I was surprised at the depth they came up with, and considering the setting is supposed to be one of the greatest strengths of a game like Oblivion, it's kind of pathetic that a story-driven game like Mass Effect did a better job in that area.
About Oblivion's character advancement system, I feel like it could have been better than Mass Effect's--it certainly has the complexity to be more interesting. Problem is, Bethesda made a few astoundingly moronic design decisions when coming up with it that basically crippled the entire joy of it for me (and many others, hence the PC version mods fixing their screw-ups).
I agree with a lot of what you said here, but you have to remember that there were exponentially more side quests in Oblivion. Bethesda usually makes the decision to trade quality for quantity, and can have uneven results. The thing is, no other company really makes games on the scale that they do successfully. I've heard Fallout is supposed to be more focused, with unique NPCs and a smaller world, so I'm hoping they'll apply some of the lessons they learned from Oblivion.
Depends what you mean by "on that scale". If you mean by amount of stuff do to, yes, there games that have done it far better.
If you mean one seamless world, there's pretty much just the GTA games.
Here's the thing. Mass Effect was less open-ended in the sense of roaming wherever you want in the countryside, but it had far better and more meaningful optional side quests in the areas where the main story missions took place. (Granted, the Mako planets were even emptier than Oblivion's countryside.) Furthermore, side quests often had multiple outcomes and decisions that influenced how they played out.
This was rarely the case in Oblivion, and the quests in Oblivion were generally incredibly straight forward and lacked memorable characters, choices, or storylines.
So yeah, Mass Effect at least felt more open-ended to me, in addition to having a great storyline and main quest.
BioWare also took the time to really develop Mass Effect's setting through the codex and character dialogue. I was surprised at the depth they came up with, and considering the setting is supposed to be one of the greatest strengths of a game like Oblivion, it's kind of pathetic that a story-driven game like Mass Effect did a better job in that area.
About Oblivion's character advancement system, I feel like it could have been better than Mass Effect's--it certainly has the complexity to be more interesting. Problem is, Bethesda made a few astoundingly moronic design decisions when coming up with it that basically crippled the entire joy of it for me (and many others, hence the PC version mods fixing their screw-ups).
I agree with a lot of what you said here, but you have to remember that there were exponentially more side quests in Oblivion. Bethesda usually makes the decision to trade quality for quantity, and can have uneven results. The thing is, no other company really makes games on the scale that they do successfully. I've heard Fallout is supposed to be more focused, with unique NPCs and a smaller world, so I'm hoping they'll apply some of the lessons they learned from Oblivion.
I suppose it's just a matter of personal preference... I've never been on the side of the guys who are like "OMG IT'S TOO SHORT" about RPGs these days... I'll take quality over quantity anyday. Heck, I'd be happy with a 6-hour RPG if it was incredibly awesome the whole time and had no filler and plenty of interesting choices and roleplaying.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
I suppose it's just a matter of personal preference... I've never been on the side of the guys who are like "OMG IT'S TOO SHORT" about RPGs these days... I'll take quality over quantity anyday. Heck, I'd be happy with a 6-hour RPG if it was incredibly awesome the whole time and had no filler and plenty of interesting choices and roleplaying.
Mass Effect I think was in between 30 and 40 hours for me, but I committed the folly of pursuing every single side quest including the horrible empty Mako planets
I think with only the good ones (the ones in the areas designed for the main campaign) it would probably be more like 15 hours.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
I suppose it's just a matter of personal preference... I've never been on the side of the guys who are like "OMG IT'S TOO SHORT" about RPGs these days... I'll take quality over quantity anyday. Heck, I'd be happy with a 6-hour RPG if it was incredibly awesome the whole time and had no filler and plenty of interesting choices and roleplaying.
That's fine, and I agree if that's the kind of game I'm looking for (which I often am), but that's not what you go to Elder Scrolls games for, so it's not really a standard I'd hold them to. They've always been about sprawling, gigantic worlds and open gameplay and eight billion things to see/do, none of them quite perfect. The finer details have never really been polished because that's not what those games are -- which is fine, because the stuff they do they do very well, in my opinion.
The stuff Bioware does they also do very well. Like, pretty much better than anyone, really. The free roaming stuff they tried in Mass Effect very much fell short of the mark, but that's okay. That's not what I go to them for.
The two things, they are not the same to me. Differing standards based on differing expectations.
All that said ... Fallout.
I get the sense that Bethesda is looking to refine what they do here, using their open world skills while refining the details to a more focused experience, yet one that still has a lot of their strengths. That sounds promising to me.
EDIT: Incidentally, I should clarify that I'm not telling you that your standards or what you look for in a game are wrong. Not at all.
Can someone tell me how to target body parts in Fallout 2? I don't have the manual and I can't figure it out.
Click on your weapon bar at the bottom of the screen the same way you reload. When a target appears, you use it to aimed shot. Should cost more AP than a regular shot.
Sorry, I must be dumb or something. When I right click on the picture of the gun, it just goes to to the reload picture. I can't aim at an enemy with the reticle on this screen, it just gives me a red X? I must be missing something.
Christ Puncher on
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
Left click on the gun to select it to shoot someone. If you've taken fast shot you may not make targeted shots.
Sorry, I must be dumb or something. When I right click on the picture of the gun, it just goes to to the reload picture. I can't aim at an enemy with the reticle on this screen, it just gives me a red X? I must be missing something.
Did you take that perk where it takes less action points to shoot? I think that removes aimed shots
Oh, I have fast shots. Guess that's why it isn't working. Is it worth getting fast shots if it gets rid of targeted? I wish it would have told me that when I picked it.
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I'm just hoping that the novelty factor doesn't wear off as fast as it did with Oblivion - don't get me wrong I love Fallout and RPG's in general, but *something* just didn't click for me with Oblivion. I'm hoping my anticpation doesn't scupper me with FO3
The hilariously bad AI and its various antics made up for it.
There is nothing better than breaking into someones home, having their dog attack you and then watching them execute their own dog.
Woah there, when did we get a release date?
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Hahahaha. The story was cheesy and everything felt repetitive, but I don't know... I just kept going. It was still fun to me, no matter how cliché it all got.
It's like salt and vinegar chips. They taste as ass but something makes you keep eating.
-The character advancement system was ass-backwards to where the faster you killed enemies the less powerful you got relative toward them. You had to purposefully hold back your own progress and repeatedly engage in activities even more menial than "grinding" just to keep your character equal in power to the monsters in the game world. It was like the proverbial carrot on the stick, except every time you took one step forward, the carrot advanced two steps ahead unless you rubbed your belly and patted your head while walking.
-The game did a generally poor job of taking advantage of what should have been a rich game world to provide compelling small-and-large scale stories. There were a few memorable quests here and there with actual characters but for the most part it was just tedious, cliched RPG fare.
It still had some tedious cliched crap but at least the vast majority was awesome and the systems weren't completely moronic (simplified though they were). I can't say the same about Oblivion.
That's a apples to oranges kind of comparison.
Although now I wish I hadn't read it. One of the quests has an awesome twist.
He's talking about Mass Effect...
But I mean, yeah, that statement is true. Maybe you were just throwing that out there, I don't know.
Yes, yes, Mass Effect. I'll keep the original quote.
I wouldn't really call Oblivion "open ended". All the NPCs are immortal, and all the quests except the main questlines are pointless. There are no mutually exclusive factions to ally with. You can't really *do* anything.
I still liked it though.
I liked Oblivions character advancement system better. Felt more flexible and like there were a lot more options available to me. And for those of us who like exploration (me!), Oblivion was far and away better than Mass Effect, providing a big, huge world to explore with little in the way of rails. I adore Bethesda games for that reason and play them for that reason.
They're both action-based western RPGs, yes, but they're really very different breeds of game, each with a very different focus.
But the fact is, I put in about 100 hours on the PC and another 60 or so on the Xbox 360, tried out multiple characters and finished every quest line except for the Fighter's Guild. The game obviously did something right.
And honestly, if you do nothing but the story quests in Oblivion, you're doing yourself a disservice. The Thieves' Guild quests and Dark Brotherhood quests are probably the best lines in the game, and they provide some tangible benefits.
I've played the game for over 80 hours spread out over two characters. I've also never closed the first Kvatch Oblivion gate, ever (because fuck, I don't want Oblivion gates and draemora getting in my way while I'm wandering the countryside). I'd say any game that I can play that long while purposefully ignoring the main portion of it is probably pretty open-ended.
I'm in the middle of Mass Effect, and so far I do prefer it. Yeah, the side quests are uninspired, but for those parts I just pretend I'm playing Starflight in 3D, and they've done a great job creating a game world that I want to know more about and be a part of - something I definitely cannot say about Oblivion.
Fallout 3, on the other hand, is making me blow bubbles in my panties.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
This was rarely the case in Oblivion, and the quests in Oblivion were generally incredibly straight forward and lacked memorable characters, choices, or storylines.
So yeah, Mass Effect at least felt more open-ended to me, in addition to having a great storyline and main quest.
BioWare also took the time to really develop Mass Effect's setting through the codex and character dialogue. I was surprised at the depth they came up with, and considering the setting is supposed to be one of the greatest strengths of a game like Oblivion, it's kind of pathetic that a story-driven game like Mass Effect did a better job in that area.
About Oblivion's character advancement system, I feel like it could have been better than Mass Effect's--it certainly has the complexity to be more interesting. Problem is, Bethesda made a few astoundingly moronic design decisions when coming up with it that basically crippled the entire joy of it for me (and many others, hence the PC version mods fixing their screw-ups).
I can only hope that the dude who did Deadly Reflex is going to pick up FO3. It would almost be a crime for him not to.
I concede the points about random encounters and the SMB, however. I wouldn't Tag Sneak, but it is more useful than I gave it credit for.
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GT: Tanith 6227
I agree with a lot of what you said here, but you have to remember that there were exponentially more side quests in Oblivion. Bethesda usually makes the decision to trade quality for quantity, and can have uneven results. The thing is, no other company really makes games on the scale that they do successfully. I've heard Fallout is supposed to be more focused, with unique NPCs and a smaller world, so I'm hoping they'll apply some of the lessons they learned from Oblivion.
I mean, the art direction seems spot on.
Depends what you mean by "on that scale". If you mean by amount of stuff do to, yes, there games that have done it far better.
If you mean one seamless world, there's pretty much just the GTA games.
I suppose it's just a matter of personal preference... I've never been on the side of the guys who are like "OMG IT'S TOO SHORT" about RPGs these days... I'll take quality over quantity anyday. Heck, I'd be happy with a 6-hour RPG if it was incredibly awesome the whole time and had no filler and plenty of interesting choices and roleplaying.
So basically Mass Effect?
Though its closer to 8 hours.
I think with only the good ones (the ones in the areas designed for the main campaign) it would probably be more like 15 hours.
The stuff Bioware does they also do very well. Like, pretty much better than anyone, really. The free roaming stuff they tried in Mass Effect very much fell short of the mark, but that's okay. That's not what I go to them for.
The two things, they are not the same to me. Differing standards based on differing expectations.
All that said ... Fallout.
I get the sense that Bethesda is looking to refine what they do here, using their open world skills while refining the details to a more focused experience, yet one that still has a lot of their strengths. That sounds promising to me.
EDIT: Incidentally, I should clarify that I'm not telling you that your standards or what you look for in a game are wrong. Not at all.
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Click on your weapon bar at the bottom of the screen the same way you reload. When a target appears, you use it to aimed shot. Should cost more AP than a regular shot.
Umm...define fans. I know olol NMA, but it seems like they've shut out even the non-crazys
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Did you take that perk where it takes less action points to shoot? I think that removes aimed shots
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