Penny Arcade Forums› Help / Advice Forum
The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.

Question about Latin prepositions

ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
edited July 2008 in Help / Advice Forum
I'm not a Latin student. Hell, I'm not even that great when it comes to English grammar. But I have a question I'm hoping someone can solve for me real quick. Take a title such as 'Owner/Master of Horses'. What is the preposition in Latin? Is it even there? All I can find are prepositions like 'In front of', which may very well be what I'm looking for, but I'm not sure. Any help is appreciated.

JKKaAGp.png
Zombiemambo on

Posts

  • MahnmutMahnmut Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Possession in Latin is indicated with the genitive case rather than with a preposition. In English, it's more similar to "The Horses' Owner."

    Erus/Dominus Equorum.

    Mahnmut on
    Steam/LoL: Jericho89
  • ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Mahnmut wrote: »
    Possession in Latin is indicated with the genitive case rather than with a preposition. In English, it's more similar to "The Horses' Owner."

    Erus/Dominus Equorum.

    Thanks, I thought that might have been the case but I wasn't sure.

    Zombiemambo on
    JKKaAGp.png
  • Cyd CycloneCyd Cyclone Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Zombiemambo wrote: »
    Mahnmut wrote: »
    Possession in Latin is indicated with the genitive case rather than with a preposition. In English, it's more similar to "The Horses' Owner."

    Erus/Dominus Equorum.

    Thanks, I thought that might have been the case but I wasn't sure.

    This works for virtually everything, but sometimes the dative case will pop up, usually with body parts.

    Cyd Cyclone on
  • MagicToasterMagicToaster JapanRegistered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Prepositions indicate a sort of location: Above, below, from, in, out, on, off. I don't think they're used for indicating possesives.

    MagicToaster on
  • Cyd CycloneCyd Cyclone Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    MagicToaster wrote: »
    Prepositions indicate a sort of location: Above, below, from, in, out, on, off. I don't think they're used for indicating possesives.

    Basically. However, prepositions are also used to relate reasons behind actions and other zany things like that.

    Cyd Cyclone on
  • MagicToasterMagicToaster JapanRegistered User regular
    edited July 2008
    For example?

    MagicToaster on
  • Cyd CycloneCyd Cyclone Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    MagicToaster wrote: »
    For example?

    propter springs to mind, as well as de, pro, ob, and a/ab.

    propter, ob, and pro are used in various instances when a reason is given, depending on the grammatical structure. de is very versitile and can be used to mean from whence as well as concerning, for example when used with the gerund.

    Cyd Cyclone on
  • MagicToasterMagicToaster JapanRegistered User regular
    edited July 2008
    I was kinda hoping for an example sentence. I'm not quite sure what you mean in that explanation.

    MagicToaster on
  • Cyd CycloneCyd Cyclone Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    MagicToaster wrote: »
    I was kinda hoping for an example sentence. I'm not quite sure what you mean in that explanation.

    The following examples will only really help if you've taken upper level Latin, or possibly Greek.

    Here's one from De Bello Gallico IV.20 using ad + a gerundive to denote purpose (ad usually means to, towards):

    (et)si tempus anni ad bellum gerendum deficeret

    although the time of year was wanting for the purpose of waging war

    An example using propter would go something like:

    propter hostem perfugi

    I fled the city on account of my enemy

    Alternately, a/ab and de together as an example:

    multa de bene beateque vivendo a Platone disputata sunt

    there was much discussion by Plato (i.e. Plato spoke much) on the subject of living well and happily

    Here the de is used to denote what Plato discussed, and the a(b) is used to denote the agent by which the impersonal verb form, disputata sunt, was done.

    Essentially the preposition, although mainly used to denote relative space/time, is used to add a supporting idea to the sentence, often what would be a subordinate clause in English (such as example 2). Whereas English must use a relative formula, such as "on account of", Latin simply uses a preposition.

    (Greek does essentially the same thing, but in a far more complicated manner.)

    Cyd Cyclone on
  • MagicToasterMagicToaster JapanRegistered User regular
    edited July 2008
    See, this is why I love this place. Every day, I learn something new! Thanks, Cyd!

    MagicToaster on
  • GotrGotr Ms. St Louis, MORegistered User regular
    edited July 2008
    If you're ever trying to turn a Latin noun into the possessive, here's a guide on how to do most of them:
    The base is the unbold part; the changable ending is the bold part; any change in base is italicized.

    Nom, Sing. Pos., Pl Pos.:

    Pattern 1:
    Puella, Puellae, Puellarum (Girl)
    Nauta, Nautae, Nautarum (Sailor)

    Pattern 2:
    Part A)
    Salus, Sali, Salorum (Safety)
    Equus, Equi, Equorum (Horse)
    Populus, Populi, Populorum

    Part B)
    Puer, Pueri, Puerorum (Boy)
    Vir, Viri, Virorum (Man)
    Noster, Nostri, Nostrorum (Our (an adjective, but follows the same pattern as some nouns))

    Part C)
    Bellum, Belli, Bellorum (War)

    Pattern 3 (Very Tricky):
    Part A)
    Rex, Regis, Regum
    Celertitas, Celeritatis, Celeritatum
    Eques, Equitis, Equitum

    Part B) (Watch the pl)
    Mons, Montis, Montium
    Panis, Panis, Panium
    Pons, Pontis, Pontium

    Pattern 4:
    Domus, Domus, Domuum
    Exercitus, Exercitus, Exercituum

    Pattern 5:
    Res, Rei, Rerum
    Spes, Spei, Sperum

    Of course there are a few words here and there that don't quite fit into any pattern, and certainly the 3rd pattern is hard to see, but it's much more predictable than most vernaculars, particularly German.

    Gotr on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    [/spoiler]
  • Cyd CycloneCyd Cyclone Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Gotr wrote: »
    If you're ever trying to turn a Latin noun into the possessive, here's a guide on how to do most of them:
    The base is the unbold part; the changable ending is the bold part; any change in base is italicized.

    Nom, Sing. Pos., Pl Pos.:

    Pattern 1:
    Puella, Puellae, Puellarum (Girl)
    Nauta, Nautae, Nautarum (Sailor)

    Pattern 2:
    Part A)
    Salus, Sali, Salorum (Safety)
    Equus, Equi, Equorum (Horse)
    Populus, Populi, Populorum

    Part B)
    Puer, Pueri, Puerorum (Boy)
    Vir, Viri, Virorum (Man)
    Noster, Nostri, Nostrorum (Our (an adjective, but follows the same pattern as some nouns))

    Part C)
    Bellum, Belli, Bellorum (War)

    Pattern 3 (Very Tricky):
    Part A)
    Rex, Regis, Regum
    Celertitas, Celeritatis, Celeritatum
    Eques, Equitis, Equitum

    Part B) (Watch the pl)
    Mons, Montis, Montium
    Panis, Panis, Panium
    Pons, Pontis, Pontium

    Pattern 4:
    Domus, Domus, Domuum
    Exercitus, Exercitus, Exercituum

    Pattern 5:
    Res, Rei, Rerum
    Spes, Spei, Sperum

    Of course there are a few words here and there that don't quite fit into any pattern, and certainly the 3rd pattern is hard to see, but it's much more predictable than most vernaculars, particularly German.

    I'll add that third declension nouns (pattern 3) come in about 5 varieties, and there is no real way to determine the genitive stem at the basic level (although you can reasonably guess after a while).

    Also, everyone feel free to just PM me questions, as Latin and Greek translations are a large part of what I do for a living.

    Cyd Cyclone on
Sign In or Register to comment.
Penny Arcade Forums› Help / Advice Forum