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What is it with people and homeopathy?
PiCroft
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
So I was discussing the efficiacy of Nytol to help with insomnia with a friend when a (female) friend chimed in with "Have you considered natural sleeping medicine?"
I asked her what she meant by "natural" and she told me about something called Rescue Remedy. I looked it up and it turns out it is a homeopathic remedy:
^^ actually on the packaging.
Next time I saw her, she asked if I had tried her suggestion. I was sorely tempted to tell her to suggest something other than expensive brandy water next time.
Seriously, do people believe in homeopathic stuff because they don't actually understand what homeopathy is, or is it just lazy thinking and paranoia of regular doctors/medicine? I find it both difficult and depressing to believe that anyone takes it seriously once they know how homeopathy works.
I asked her what she meant by "natural" and she told me about something called Rescue Remedy. I looked it up and it turns out it is a homeopathic remedy:
5x dilution of flower extracts of Rock Rose <snip>
^^ actually on the packaging.
Next time I saw her, she asked if I had tried her suggestion. I was sorely tempted to tell her to suggest something other than expensive brandy water next time.
Seriously, do people believe in homeopathic stuff because they don't actually understand what homeopathy is, or is it just lazy thinking and paranoia of regular doctors/medicine? I find it both difficult and depressing to believe that anyone takes it seriously once they know how homeopathy works.
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I believe a 5* dilution in homeopathic terms is 100,000 times weaker than the actual original chemical.
And people believe it works for the same reason they believe in Astrology, and it sometimes does work because it encourages routine (which can diminish stress) and makes you feel positive and active against your problem. Both of these factors give a strong placebo effect for some conditions.
I think it can actually be harmful though if someone uses it instead of conventional medicine.
Homeopathic medicine works under the central hypothesis that heavily diluting some substance that causes symptoms similar to the affliction you have and then drinking it will cure that affliction. "Potency", in homeopathic terms, is the level of dilution: something diluted further has a higher "potency" (yes, that's right). The substances sold generally have a very low probability of containing even a single molecule of the orignal substance in a dose (or, shit, an entire container) of the dilution: you are literally paying for a placebo.
Homeopathy is based on the idea that if a large amount of something can cause condition X, a miniscule amount will cure it.
Hence the idea that if you give people potions so dilute you'd need to drink the solar system worth of it to guarantee you'd obtained a single molecule of the original substance, you can cure anything.
eta ^^ what he said.
Homeopathic "medicine" makes no attempt to do this (there are long and blatantly unscientific theories about how you don't really need any of the original molecules), and frequently "remedies" are diluted so far that it's extremely unlikely that any molecules of the original substance remain.
The best example is arnica: originally used in homeopathy, clinical studies have shown that at not-stupid concentrations it is a relatively effective topical anti-inflammatory.
So sometimes when people say "homeopathy" what they mean is "herbal" which is somewhat less stupid (though still somewhat stupid depending on which herb and which condition they're talking about). I don't think the average consumer of homeopathic medicines is particularly cognizant of or concerned with the notion of dilution potency or anything like that... of course, that means that the emptors really aren't caveat-ing, which is a problem in and of itself.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Yeah, I know. I was making the point about the unbelievable level of dilution used.
Homeopathy requires dilution of the "active ingredient." Natural or herbal remedies usually have the ingredient full strength. Glucosamine for joints, red yeast rice for cholesterol, those are considered "natural" remedies and studies have proven their efficacy. To my knowledge, not a single scientific study has ever suggested anything more than placebo effect for any homeopathic remedy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bg1mSo7JQM
Oh, I know. I was correcting a common misconception that molecules are so small that it would take a whole solar system's worth of dilutant to bring you down to one left. Remember Avagadro's Number, people: take the atomic weight of the combined atoms in the whole molecule, put "grams" at the end, and it's 6.022 x 10^23 molecules of it.
Forgetting this leads to stupid statements like "you could cover the Earth with a single drop of water if you spread it thin enough".
Sometimes they are. The first time I ran into homeopathy, it was in reference to herbal remedies. Those aren't inherently stupid.
Later, because of Loren, I learned what homeopathy actually was, and it's god damned stupid.
Also, water has pretty much been in contact with, well, everything, since it tends to stick around for millions of years. So you can cure anything by drinking tap water anyway.
Okay, so it seems the better part of homeopathy has it's routes firmly in herbal remedies whereas the mainstream version of homeopathy has this shit-brained, dilution factor to it?
No. Homeopathy has always had the dilution stuff. Then people started adopting the term for home remedies because it was a fancy-sounding greek word and they didn't really know what it meant.
Yeah, exactly. Ginger, glucosamine, arnica, red yeast, coal tar (not herbal but still natural), aloe, etc. Hell, aspirin comes from willowbark, and I've used wintergreen extract (which has similar salicyclate compounds) as a topical analgesic.
There's nothing wrong with herbal remedies as long as they have been clinically shown to work and I suspect that most people don't know the difference between "herbal," "holistic," and "homeopathic." All those H words are confusing. :P
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Well, the "better part" isn't actually homeopathy, I don't think. It's just a word people used because they don't know what homeopathy is and are confusing it with more legitimate medicine.
Myself included. I usually just use herbal remedies passed down by my family that I've use growing up. Like aloe leaves for burns, ginger extract for upset stomachs, mint for relaxation. However I've heard some doctors get pissed-the-hell-off about herbal remedies for things like restless legs. (My girlfriend has this and we use mint extract on her temples to calm her down enough to sleep, without it, she's up for hours because her legs bother her that much... so it's more a remedy for relaxation)
"...well yeah, that's where your energy comes from! I mean, it's not like when an egg is formed that it just starts chowing down on a cheeseburger, right? So obviously enzymes are what gives you energy"
And when I came back through a few minutes later they were discussing the finer points of the "Chinese method of Earth, Fire, Wind, and Water" with regards to health and wellness.
Genius!
Something... something is missing.
"Brains in their fucking head" would be my first guess.
I was thinking
My wanting proof for things before I believed in them was one of the things that caused us to get divorced. Wow, homeopathic medicines caused my divorce. Fuck 'em ;-)
What the fuck?
What. The. Fuck.
Edit:
I'm getting serious Scientology vibes from the above post.
The funny thing is bowen, I've seen enough testimonies about mint extract that a valid scientific study of its efficacy could probably show that it works. The problem is there is no money in herbal supplements being prove effective, so only non-profit pure-science groups tend to test them. Drug companies do not want to spend the money for testing because they cannot patent them and sell them for exorbitant profit. Herbal companies do not want to spend the money because what do they do when the study shows that a placebo is just as effective?
"You've got a degree in baloney!"
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
She described the experience as "disconcerting".
Edit: Here's an article that discusses what I mean. It's from a Skeptical site, so it obviously has an agenda of sorts. Still the author is a doctor and after listening to his podcast I believe that he knows what he's talking about and makes a compelling case.
Yeah basically this.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWE1tH93G9U
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