Making an assumption that everyone would be in the doorway isn't a good start there.
Sure focused damage beats unfocused healing. But having two healers heal the guy getting hit while another group goes over the wall and hits their ranged DPS/healers is an easy way to deal with it.
Which is it? A half-dozen people in the doorway, or one person in the doorway? Because, to actually block off the doorway, you're going to need the first.
As for siege weapons I'm basing my assumptions off DaoC where you could knock down walls and such with it. Granted it might not be like that in this game but I don't know.
Pretty sure that's not going to be the case. It's too late for me to find where that's been stated explicitly, but if you can find a screenshot of the keep areas, it's pretty clear. For an example: http://photo.mmosite.com/warhammer/2008-03-12/8e1pn163h66s658.shtml you can see here that there's not going to be any siege weaponry on any side of that keep but the front.
As for you saying there are no tactical options in that example above i guess you can choose to see it that way. I choose to see having the choice to defend the keep and go accomplish other stuff at the same time a strategic option.
That would be a tactical option. However, the point of this discussion is to answer the question, "Does collision detection (or taunt or detaunt or knockback) result in more tactical options?" You've shown tactical options, but only ones that are already present in, say, Alterac Valley.
Depending on how large the keep doors are you'd probally only need 2-3 people blocking the door and a healer or two to keep them up and possibly another line. Which in large scale PvP isn't that many which leaves most of the defenders free to do stuff such as destroy the siege weapons and kill the enemy ranged dps and healers instead of needing more of them inside defending it which is due to the ability to block
As for it being like AV is a fair comparison up to a point but you can actually keep people from just pushing through you to get to the objective (which I don't know how they are planning on taking control from someone so can't really discuss that) with collision detection unlike say the bridge in AV where you need a ton of people with roots or something to keep them from just rushing through.
Knockback would help in keeping melee people from getting through your line hence making it harder to get to the objective.
As I said earlier I don't think its a super huge change in the game but it does provide some more options then you have in say AV where you can just rush past most attempts at defense.
Speaking of which: if Alterac Valley is even the slightest indication of what players will do (I think it is), then city sieging in WAR will be laughable. Players won't care about fighting each other, they'll just pick two racial pairings and let each other sack cities. That's where the rewards are, so that's where they'll go. The objective is to sack the cities, enemy players or not. With "not", everybody gets to sack cities. I guess that's "winning". For bonus points, people trying to defend will be bitched at: defending stymies the growth of the enemy's city, but other players want the enemy city to be level 5, so they get the most when they sack it.
The Alterac Valley rush was adopted as the standard tactic because:
a) There is no point in killing enemy players. The Honor you earn from killing players is negligable compared to the amount you earn from completing the instance / battleground. Also, you dont earn any Honor from the battleground until it completes. So the sooner it is over, the sooner you get honor, and the more honor you get per unit of time.
b) Blizzard decided that they didnt want players killing players, they wanted players completing objectives in Battlegrounds. That is their perogative, and their design decision. There is not a single battleground where you are better off killing players than completing objectives.
If you actually played MMO's outside of WoW, you would have a better grasp of what constitutes RvR and true PvP.
Both DAOC and LOTRO have Keep Seiges, and never have I seen or even heard of on the boards about people intentionally giving the opposing team a free pass at taking a Keep, or a Relic, or anything.
Also, had you played Keep Taking and Seige Warfare in either of these games, you would understand that even though the Land Area of the Keeps is only 5% of the total landmass in PvP zones, 80%+ of the fighting will take place on that 5% of land area. That is the whole reason there are keeps, to focus the fighting around an objective.
And when 80%+ of your PvP fighting is in or around a keep, then yes, Collision detection becomes HUGE. You dont have groups mounting up and running past you to rejoin their cohorts inside on the defense, because you are able to physically slow them down and knock them off their mounts because of Collision detection.
There's more, but I dont feel like typing it up this early, maybe later.
Players won't care about fighting each other, they'll just pick two racial pairings and let each other sack cities.
You can't really compare Alterac Valley in WoW and City Sieging in WAR. Too rather different animals. Losing in AV effects nothing. Losing a City will effect the entire Realm in some fashion. Having a fully upgraded City will be very valuable as well, so it is something that people will fight for.
WAR is much more focused on fostering a group mentality, and getting people to work together for the betterment of the Realm. That is where WoW was lacking, as everything was focused on the individual and there are no rewards or meaning for the Realm.
If DAoC is any indication, people will be defend their cities to the end and will never roll over and play dead. Realm Pride does have some meaning.
Hi
I have just received my pre-order Collector edition codes - am I being thick but I cant figure out how to use/enter them.
Any clues?
Is the functionality to add these codes not yet available?
I am in Europe if that makes any difference. I have an account already registered with war-europe.
Hi
I have just received my pre-order Collector edition codes - am I being thick but I cant figure out how to use/enter them.
Any clues?
Is the functionality to add these codes not yet available?
I am in Europe if that makes any difference. I have an account already registered with war-europe.
Any ideas would be great.
edit: Never mind, I didn't know you couldn't enter them in Europe yet.
Seidkona on
Mostly just huntin' monsters.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
Wow, I can't believe someone's arguing that collision detection will have no impact on gameplay. Someone's clearly never played in a WoW battleground like WSG where an enemy is running down the tunnel with a flag, and you go to the end of the tunnel to cut them off and they just run directly through you. Or an Alterac Vally where you and 10 other friends try and hold a choke point, and do so successfully against 20 or more attackers (team work wins), only to have them get frustrated and run DIRECTLY THROUGH YOU and to the next objective.
The argument that you can just go AROUND some one, therefore it is useless is asinine, as it assumes that A) the person you're going around is simply standing still and isn't going to move and adjust to make going around you a long, arduous process, and that simply going around you takes the same amount of time, and is just as easy as running directly through the player.
Hi
I have just received my pre-order Collector edition codes - am I being thick but I cant figure out how to use/enter them.
Any clues?
Is the functionality to add these codes not yet available?
I am in Europe if that makes any difference. I have an account already registered with war-europe.
Any ideas would be great.
AFAIK you can't enter them on the EU site yet. (one of the reasons I've not bothered getting the collectors edition, well that and £50) They say it'll be up before open beta begins so, just keep an eye on the community sites.
Originally Posted by IainC_Goa View Post
We don't have a firm ETA for that part of the site yet but it will definitely be open before the open beta begins. As soon as it is open there will be news announcing the fact and, no doubt the regular community sites will also be reporting on it too.
The argument that you can just go AROUND some one, therefore it is useless is asinine, as it assumes that A) the person you're going around is simply standing still and isn't going to move and adjust to make going around you a long, arduous process, and that simply going around you takes the same amount of time, and is just as easy as running directly through the player.
Pretty much this.
Find a large doorway/gateway during your lunch break today. Ask one of your friends/family/coworkers to stand between you and the gateway. Now walk through the gateway. It will take you longer to walk around your friend than it would to walk straight through them, this is common sense. Now, ask your friend to actively try and stop you from walking through the gateway.
You should be able to easily get around him by tapping A or D.
Speaking of which: if Alterac Valley is even the slightest indication of what players will do (I think it is), then city sieging in WAR will be laughable. Players won't care about fighting each other, they'll just pick two racial pairings and let each other sack cities. That's where the rewards are, so that's where they'll go. The objective is to sack the cities, enemy players or not. With "not", everybody gets to sack cities. I guess that's "winning". For bonus points, people trying to defend will be bitched at: defending stymies the growth of the enemy's city, but other players want the enemy city to be level 5, so they get the most when they sack it.
The Alterac Valley rush was adopted as the standard tactic because:
a) There is no point in killing enemy players. The Honor you earn from killing players is negligable compared to the amount you earn from completing the instance / battleground. Also, you dont earn any Honor from the battleground until it completes. So the sooner it is over, the sooner you get honor, and the more honor you get per unit of time.
b) Blizzard decided that they didnt want players killing players, they wanted players completing objectives in Battlegrounds. That is their perogative, and their design decision. There is not a single battleground where you are better off killing players than completing objectives.
On b), WAR will be no different with it's scenarios. It's just the nature of those types of things. In a game of capture the flag, the goal is to ... capture the flag. The team that best focuses on this and accomplishes this will win.
So how did the tanks work in DAoC? Were they fun to play in PvP? Were they good at pvp?
Depends and depends.
It was cyclical just like any other MMO. At one point Armsman were "omgwtfawesome" because they could two shot people with their halberd. They got nerfed.
At one point, Hero's were similarly awesome, because they could two shot people with their spear. Same result.
They were fun to play though, for the most part.
I was mostly Midgard, and we didn't really have a "tank" as much as the other realms did (because neither the Thane nor the Berserker were as tanky as Hero's or Armsman), but the Berserker was a really great class before Left Axe got nerfed (and sadly, it wasn't even nerfed because of 'zerkers, it was nerferd because of the Zerkerblade Shadowblade build that used left axe/double frost to two shot heavy armor tanks from behind).
but even after the tanks lost their 2shotting powers, they were viable in pvp right?
Yep. Especially for keep defense, where you could line them up in front of the gate and have them go in to their "no move" stance (where they stop you from moving past them), and have your healers stand behind them and heal them, and have your AE'ers lay AE's just in front of them.
but even after the tanks lost their 2shotting powers, they were viable in pvp right?
Yep. Especially for keep defense, where you could line them up in front of the gate and have them go in to their "no move" stance (where they stop you from moving past them), and have your healers stand behind them and heal them, and have your AE'ers lay AE's just in front of them.
They also had guard abilities that would allow them to block attacks on an ally with their shield.
So you pick a target, and that target now gets a 25%+ chance of incoming attacks getting blocked.
Also, with master level abilities, you could set it up so that you blocked all incoming melee attacks on your target, which meant that in a zerg, the only way for people to kill your healer / mezzer was to either find the person guarding them out of the zerg, or rain spells and arrows down on them.
I think it's just too early to tell on all this collision stuff. The people who are playing know, but they're not gonna say anything. In any case, the effectiveness will depend on the relative skills of the players, the surrounding terrain, and the exact mechanics of blocking.
I think it's just too early to tell on all this collision stuff. The people who are playing know, but they're not gonna say anything. In any case, the effectiveness will depend on the relative skills of the players, the surrounding terrain, and the exact mechanics of blocking.
This. I think though, even if the CD is only a slight snare as you run through people, it will have a significant effect on gameplay. Tanks stepping in the path of a charging melee to slow him just enough for a healer to get away, that sort of thing.
From what I've heard, it's not terribly slight. You slowly push through them, but if they take a step back, you're back at square one.
Oats on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited July 2008
Garthor, I'm not liking how you are responding here. Calm the fuck down and stop resorting to petty insults and name-calling.
I will respond to a few things in kind:
AV devolved into the rush once people realized that the fatest way to get honor was to ignore the other side. Games ended faster resulting in more honor, which meant more points to spend on gear. It devolved into this because of the incentives that blizzard put forth. It used to be about winning through attrition and tactics, and it was like that until they rehauled the PvP system to the honor point system. Case in point, most people running AV were running it to gain reputation with their respective faction, and the best way to do this was to kill enemies and loot their bodies, then run back to base and do turn ins. You had to crawl along the map and activate the wingmasters in order to maximize your rep gain. In this aspect, it favored heavily confrontation.
More to come later.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Back in the day my friends would tell me about epic 6 hour long AV battles that were tough and vicious and a lot of fun. I never played AV up until later and all I ever got to experience was the zerg rush to the enemy base. These days all anyone wants is to win the battle quick. Even in low level twink brackets, where twinks are supposed to play for competition, many of them leave the game after 10-15 mins if they haven't won yet because everyone sucks and is a "nub". This is one thing I hope WAR brings back, epic battles designed to test you out and have fun, not designed to rush through so you can get better gear to make further rush throughs quicker. Don't let me down baby
moleface on
battle.net: lankyplonker#1923
psn: lankyplonker
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited July 2008
Epic was actually the 48 hour+ AV battles.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Yeah, I remember playing some AV then going to class/work, coming back and the same game is still going, going to sleep and waking up the next morning to find the same game is still going with little progress made.
Old AV fun? WTF were those people shooting into their veins?
AV was a massive standstill. For hours/days. Then someone might get the riders going, and then you push forward for a bit, and if your lucky, you push the line a bit further up. If not, it's back to the same spot. The big guys were the same, except there you'd have a warlock or hunter pull them to the general to be killed, so they were even more useless.
Unless you had an organized group on one side, old AV was brutally, brutally bad. A good idea, that just didn't work out in implimentation.
New AV is about which team can field the best combination of Offense and Defense.
yeah, i have to agree with shryke. old av was a pain.
belaraphon on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited July 2008
Old AV was a chore because it was like herding cats. A 40 man pug where a minimum of 35 people are retarded.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Since collision detection only works for enemies, I'm extremely excited to run out and blast some fools on a Shaman just to have them try to chase me under the legs of a Black Orc.
Toothy on
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FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
edited July 2008
So, in this thread, Garthor tries to tell us what WAR RVR will be like. This is all based off his WOW PVP experiences. A game where the group PVP is nothing like DAOC was--the system that influenced WAR'S.
As an ex-DAOC player, I can safely say that you have no clue what you're saying. AV is to RVR as Guitar Hero is to a live concert. You think you know what the real shit is like, but you're playing a dumbed down version.
I think the biggest problem with AV is that you couldnt recapture anything but graveyards. You couldnt recapture Towers or anything, so all there was to fight over was graveyards, which is made next to impossible from people... you know... rezzing right next to the objective.
I think the biggest problem with AV is that you couldnt recapture anything but graveyards. You couldnt recapture Towers or anything, so all there was to fight over was graveyards, which is made next to impossible from people... you know... rezzing right next to the objective.
It's possible if your not stupid (contradiction for most PUGs, I know). You fight on top of the rezzing spot instead of on top of the flag. Works REALLY well.
Posts
Which is it? A half-dozen people in the doorway, or one person in the doorway? Because, to actually block off the doorway, you're going to need the first.
Pretty sure that's not going to be the case. It's too late for me to find where that's been stated explicitly, but if you can find a screenshot of the keep areas, it's pretty clear. For an example: http://photo.mmosite.com/warhammer/2008-03-12/8e1pn163h66s658.shtml you can see here that there's not going to be any siege weaponry on any side of that keep but the front.
That would be a tactical option. However, the point of this discussion is to answer the question, "Does collision detection (or taunt or detaunt or knockback) result in more tactical options?" You've shown tactical options, but only ones that are already present in, say, Alterac Valley.
Toss the goblin into an angry looking mob, where the goblin blows them all away?
That would be awesome.
As for it being like AV is a fair comparison up to a point but you can actually keep people from just pushing through you to get to the objective (which I don't know how they are planning on taking control from someone so can't really discuss that) with collision detection unlike say the bridge in AV where you need a ton of people with roots or something to keep them from just rushing through.
Knockback would help in keeping melee people from getting through your line hence making it harder to get to the objective.
As I said earlier I don't think its a super huge change in the game but it does provide some more options then you have in say AV where you can just rush past most attempts at defense.
The Alterac Valley rush was adopted as the standard tactic because:
a) There is no point in killing enemy players. The Honor you earn from killing players is negligable compared to the amount you earn from completing the instance / battleground. Also, you dont earn any Honor from the battleground until it completes. So the sooner it is over, the sooner you get honor, and the more honor you get per unit of time.
b) Blizzard decided that they didnt want players killing players, they wanted players completing objectives in Battlegrounds. That is their perogative, and their design decision. There is not a single battleground where you are better off killing players than completing objectives.
If you actually played MMO's outside of WoW, you would have a better grasp of what constitutes RvR and true PvP.
Both DAOC and LOTRO have Keep Seiges, and never have I seen or even heard of on the boards about people intentionally giving the opposing team a free pass at taking a Keep, or a Relic, or anything.
Also, had you played Keep Taking and Seige Warfare in either of these games, you would understand that even though the Land Area of the Keeps is only 5% of the total landmass in PvP zones, 80%+ of the fighting will take place on that 5% of land area. That is the whole reason there are keeps, to focus the fighting around an objective.
And when 80%+ of your PvP fighting is in or around a keep, then yes, Collision detection becomes HUGE. You dont have groups mounting up and running past you to rejoin their cohorts inside on the defense, because you are able to physically slow them down and knock them off their mounts because of Collision detection.
There's more, but I dont feel like typing it up this early, maybe later.
MWO: Adamski
You can't really compare Alterac Valley in WoW and City Sieging in WAR. Too rather different animals. Losing in AV effects nothing. Losing a City will effect the entire Realm in some fashion. Having a fully upgraded City will be very valuable as well, so it is something that people will fight for.
WAR is much more focused on fostering a group mentality, and getting people to work together for the betterment of the Realm. That is where WoW was lacking, as everything was focused on the individual and there are no rewards or meaning for the Realm.
If DAoC is any indication, people will be defend their cities to the end and will never roll over and play dead. Realm Pride does have some meaning.
I have just received my pre-order Collector edition codes - am I being thick but I cant figure out how to use/enter them.
Any clues?
Is the functionality to add these codes not yet available?
I am in Europe if that makes any difference. I have an account already registered with war-europe.
Any ideas would be great.
edit: Never mind, I didn't know you couldn't enter them in Europe yet.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
The argument that you can just go AROUND some one, therefore it is useless is asinine, as it assumes that A) the person you're going around is simply standing still and isn't going to move and adjust to make going around you a long, arduous process, and
AFAIK you can't enter them on the EU site yet. (one of the reasons I've not bothered getting the collectors edition, well that and £50) They say it'll be up before open beta begins so, just keep an eye on the community sites.
Yeah the whole EU setup is pretty much awful in comparison to what EA Mythic has got, GOA has made a "wonderful" *entirely* Flash website though
Pretty much this.
Find a large doorway/gateway during your lunch break today. Ask one of your friends/family/coworkers to stand between you and the gateway. Now walk through the gateway. It will take you longer to walk around your friend than it would to walk straight through them, this is common sense. Now, ask your friend to actively try and stop you from walking through the gateway.
You should be able to easily get around him by tapping A or D.
On b), WAR will be no different with it's scenarios. It's just the nature of those types of things. In a game of capture the flag, the goal is to ... capture the flag. The team that best focuses on this and accomplishes this will win.
I want to know more PA people on Twitter.
Thanks for the replies. I will wait patiently:zzz:
Any links for a good EU WAR community web site?
I don't really know any but I check out the Freddy's house and Warhammer Alliance forums for news and posts by the euro CM.
I want to know more PA people on Twitter.
So, does the EU's taunting applied message dance around or something?
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
That would be an improvement. www.war-europe.com ... this looks like a regular website *right clicks*...eh? o_O
I absolutely love the idea of Public Quests. Large scale, varried scripted encounters that start up every so often? Hell yeah.
Depends and depends.
It was cyclical just like any other MMO. At one point Armsman were "omgwtfawesome" because they could two shot people with their halberd. They got nerfed.
At one point, Hero's were similarly awesome, because they could two shot people with their spear. Same result.
They were fun to play though, for the most part.
I was mostly Midgard, and we didn't really have a "tank" as much as the other realms did (because neither the Thane nor the Berserker were as tanky as Hero's or Armsman), but the Berserker was a really great class before Left Axe got nerfed (and sadly, it wasn't even nerfed because of 'zerkers, it was nerferd because of the Zerkerblade Shadowblade build that used left axe/double frost to two shot heavy armor tanks from behind).
Yep. Especially for keep defense, where you could line them up in front of the gate and have them go in to their "no move" stance (where they stop you from moving past them), and have your healers stand behind them and heal them, and have your AE'ers lay AE's just in front of them.
They also had guard abilities that would allow them to block attacks on an ally with their shield.
So you pick a target, and that target now gets a 25%+ chance of incoming attacks getting blocked.
Also, with master level abilities, you could set it up so that you blocked all incoming melee attacks on your target, which meant that in a zerg, the only way for people to kill your healer / mezzer was to either find the person guarding them out of the zerg, or rain spells and arrows down on them.
It essentially cockblocked many assist trains.
MWO: Adamski
This. I think though, even if the CD is only a slight snare as you run through people, it will have a significant effect on gameplay. Tanks stepping in the path of a charging melee to slow him just enough for a healer to get away, that sort of thing.
LoL: BunyipAristocrat
I will respond to a few things in kind:
AV devolved into the rush once people realized that the fatest way to get honor was to ignore the other side. Games ended faster resulting in more honor, which meant more points to spend on gear. It devolved into this because of the incentives that blizzard put forth. It used to be about winning through attrition and tactics, and it was like that until they rehauled the PvP system to the honor point system. Case in point, most people running AV were running it to gain reputation with their respective faction, and the best way to do this was to kill enemies and loot their bodies, then run back to base and do turn ins. You had to crawl along the map and activate the wingmasters in order to maximize your rep gain. In this aspect, it favored heavily confrontation.
More to come later.
psn: lankyplonker
AV was a massive standstill. For hours/days. Then someone might get the riders going, and then you push forward for a bit, and if your lucky, you push the line a bit further up. If not, it's back to the same spot. The big guys were the same, except there you'd have a warlock or hunter pull them to the general to be killed, so they were even more useless.
Unless you had an organized group on one side, old AV was brutally, brutally bad. A good idea, that just didn't work out in implimentation.
New AV is about which team can field the best combination of Offense and Defense.
psn: lankyplonker
As an ex-DAOC player, I can safely say that you have no clue what you're saying. AV is to RVR as Guitar Hero is to a live concert. You think you know what the real shit is like, but you're playing a dumbed down version.
MWO: Adamski
It's possible if your not stupid (contradiction for most PUGs, I know). You fight on top of the rezzing spot instead of on top of the flag. Works REALLY well.