BTW anyone complaining about speeding up Outlands is a jackass. Tell me that shit is fun the sixth fucking time through it. I have zero fucking interest in anything other than a level 70 character at this point. 1-69 is a waste of my time. Spending literal days doing the same repetitive shit I've already done 5 times over is a pointless waste of time.
"Blah blah but MMOs are a pointless waste of time anyway."
Yes, but at least at 70 I can attempt to have some fun. Killing my 472,547th ogre is dumb as shit. As far as I'm concerned if you have two max level characters all other characters on your account should have permanent rested bonus.
BTW anyone complaining about speeding up Outlands is a jackass. Tell me that shit is fun the sixth fucking time through it. I have zero fucking interest in anything other than a level 70 character at this point. 1-69 is a waste of my time. Spending literal days doing the same repetitive shit I've already done 5 times over is a pointless waste of time.
"Blah blah but MMOs are a pointless waste of time anyway."
Yes, but at least at 70 I can attempt to have some fun. Killing my 472,547th ogre is dumb as shit. As far as I'm concerned if you have two max level characters all other characters on your account should have permanent rested bonus.
BTW anyone complaining about speeding up Outlands is a jackass. Tell me that shit is fun the sixth fucking time through it. I have zero fucking interest in anything other than a level 70 character at this point. 1-69 is a waste of my time. Spending literal days doing the same repetitive shit I've already done 5 times over is a pointless waste of time.
"Blah blah but MMOs are a pointless waste of time anyway."
Yes, but at least at 70 I can attempt to have some fun. Killing my 472,547th ogre is dumb as shit. As far as I'm concerned if you have two max level characters all other characters on your account should have permanent rested bonus.
This is my sixth character. It is still fun.
Grats. I think you should have the option to turn off exp and stay there forever. I, on the other hand, have no fucking interest in spending another 6 hours churning out another level with zero fun involved just so I can get to 70 when the game starts.
The biggest problem (besides how long it takes) is that you pretty have to go to Hellfire the first couple of levels. You have more options later on in the leveling process, but it still doesn't feel like you have nearly the amount of options as you had in Azeroth. I mean, for example, my 44 Paladin has recently been doing quests in Badlands, Stranglethorn Vale, Swamp of Sorrows, Duskwallow Marsh and be in Tanaris soon.
Exactly. I have four 70s. I'm tired of doing the exact same shit in Outland. I've done the Azeroth quests, but I can change it up a little bit at least. Outland is a single track.
With regard to the revamped SM, it actually looks like you'd be able to hit all of the bosses in short order. What seemed most odd to me though was that the graveyard side only had the torture chamber and a small courtyard. Seems likely that Thalnos will be there. Just makes me wonder if the rare spawns will be removed all together and what might come of the Headless Horseman. I suppose he could still come in there though.
I never really considered SM much of a problem but I'm glad to know that they're at least working on Azeroth.
Joon on
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TavIrish Minister for DefenceRegistered Userregular
edited July 2008
Stupid fucking sporebats and their stupid fucking lack of eyes.
So, needing to go to BRD and Un'goro for libram stuff so I can kill Illidan makes sense, right?
right?
There's never been a resist set that hasn't required some bullshit work like that. At least they're kind enough to make some decent crafted/buyable resist gear now. I remember doing repeated runs of Mauradon for NR gear back in the AQ days.
Entriech on
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
So, needing to go to BRD and Un'goro for libram stuff so I can kill Illidan makes sense, right?
right?
There's never been a resist set that hasn't required some bullshit work like that. At least they're kind enough to make some decent crafted/buyable resist gear now. I remember doing repeated runs of Mauradon for NR gear back in the AQ days.
Christ those days were awful. All of that fucking work for one goddamn fight.
Thomamelas on
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
Jesus, pretty soon it'll be "want to be level 80? Ding! Done! Level 90?! DING!! TYPE IN WHAT LEVEL YOU WANT TO BE!! DING!!"
That's it exactly.
I'm sure they'll balance it however they feel like, but frankly going through Outlands (I've done it four times now) is balanced pretty perfectly as-is. Is it boring to do it more than 'x' number of times? In some zones/quests, sure (hello Nesingwary), but the whole point of alting is experiencing the game with another set of abilities. When you alt, you're saying "hey, I'd like to go through this again". The argument that it should be faster than it was the first time you went through it just doesn't make sense to me.
Before the fix to Azeroth's leveling curve, yeah, there was definitely a need for some rebalancing. I just leveled my warlock since the fix and there were whole zones I didn't even need to go into. Western/Eastern Plaguelands, Blasted Lands, Searing Gorge, Burning Steppes, the list goes on. Questing through those zones was pretty much mandatory before the fix, and now you can just skip them. Fine, no problem, but to do the same thing to Outlands? As it is, if you're doing it right, Netherstorm and Shadowmoon Valley should be virtually untouched by the time you hit 70. There's two whole zones of quests (out of a possible seven) that you don't even have to quest in to hit 70. And you want it to go...faster? So, skip four zones out of seven? Five? How much of Outlands do you want to flat-out ignore?
My point is that this content was developed and a lot of these places are chock full of quests, excellent rewards and rep. Anything can be improved upon, but to homogenize the experience to the point that someone can completely bypass half of the content you developed seems an odd choice to me.
Jesus, pretty soon it'll be "want to be level 80? Ding! Done! Level 90?! DING!! TYPE IN WHAT LEVEL YOU WANT TO BE!! DING!!"
That's it exactly.
I'm sure they'll balance it however they feel like, but frankly going through Outlands (I've done it four times now) is balanced pretty perfectly as-is. Is it boring to do it more than 'x' number of times? In some zones/quests, sure (hello Nesingwary), but the whole point of alting is experiencing the game with another set of abilities. When you alt, you're saying "hey, I'd like to go through this again". The argument that it should be faster than it was the first time you went through it just doesn't make sense to me.
Before the fix to Azeroth's leveling curve, yeah, there was definitely a need for some rebalancing. I just leveled my warlock since the fix and there were whole zones I didn't even need to go into. Western/Eastern Plaguelands, Blasted Lands, Searing Gorge, Burning Steppes, the list goes on. Questing through those zones was pretty much mandatory before the fix, and now you can just skip them. Fine, no problem, but to do the same thing to Outlands? As it is, if you're doing it right, Netherstorm and Shadowmoon Valley should be virtually untouched by the time you hit 70. There's two whole zones of quests (out of a possible seven) that you don't even have to quest in to hit 70. And you want it to go...faster? So, skip four zones out of seven? Five? How much of Outlands do you want to flat-out ignore?
My point is that this content was developed and a lot of these places are chock full of quests, excellent rewards and rep. Anything can be improved upon, but to homogenize the experience to the point that someone can completely bypass half of the content you developed seems an odd choice to me.
For some people, they don't give two shits that they are missing on whole zones and the quests in them. They just want to get to 70 as soon as they can. For badge gear, pvp, raiding etc. For most people, the game starts at 70.
For some people, they don't give two shits that they are missing on whole zones and the quests in them. They just want to get to 70 as soon as they can. For badge gear, pvp, raiding etc. For most people, the game starts at 70.
I've heard that quite often. I don't begrudge people their opinion, but that's a mindset I just don't understand. If leveling is so absolutely apalling to someone...this is so not the right game to be playing. Because the game doesn't start at 70. It starts at 1.
Though I suppose that explains why accounts are being bought and sold so frequently. Some people just want to jump right into the endgame and bypass leveling entirely.
Let me ask, though, just a quick poll: who here would create a level-capped character and play it in instances/raids/whatever if Blizzard allowed players that option?
For me its just an alt thing. I love leveling the first two times or so. By the time I am leveling alt number 3 its probably been a year or two or three since the expansion was released. And at that point I am sick of the same content. When I level in outlands first on my warrior I did one set of zones and skipped one small section. When I did my lock I did the other half so leveling both times I had new content. I have hit the point there is nothing new, and I would like to speed it up so the end game I have tanked and done on a lock I can see from a new perspective.
I would never make a full level 70 off the bat, I do learn a bit by leveling, instancing and grouping on the way to 70. And there are moments in low level instance when every one is not taking it as serious as a herioc or a raid and you have the lol moments of stupid.
With the prominence of the Lich King in this next expansion, a revamping of the Plaguelands with some more high level continent would be very welcome I think.
This is an excellent idea. There are quests in the Plaguelands now but some of them are really tedious and a lot of people never did them in the first place, hitting 60 (or now 58) long before finishing those zones.
In my experience the people who bitch about wanting an instant 70 to start the game are most often PVPers. Sure some people want a new instant 70 alt to do heroics and leech Kara gear with, but I think some amount of bitching about leveling would be alleviated if the arena tournament servers were not just a "pay extra for this limited time event" thing. Then people who just want to arena could go make whatever character they want and not have to whine about needing to grind BG tokens or badges for their arena gear, and people who like playing the game and killing monsters and running instances can stay on normal servers.
I wouldn't make a 70 straight away, leveling gives you time to get to grips with the class. I would however make a 70 for the classes I already have. If only I could have my rogue be a female orc instead of a male undead and if my mage wasn't such a hideous male troll.
I have a question about alts and farming. My main is a shadow priest with about 800 spell damage currently. I'd like an alt dedicated to solo farming of primals and maybe ore and/or herbs. The classes that I've read that are good for farming (in no paticular order) are hunter, warlock, and dual gathering druid with swift flight form.
I do have a hunter at 22, and I'm a litttle sick and tired/bored with it already. Too much feeding, shooting my money away, low bag space, and paranoia about my pet type and skills are bothering me. What do you guys have to say about an alt for only farming? Or is it a silly idea?
Let me ask, though, just a quick poll: who here would create a level-capped character and play it in instances/raids/whatever if Blizzard allowed players that option?
No.
I have done this. On the PTR's. I don't even like doing it with my own freakin' class.
All the experience, all the gear, all the rep, all the everything I have on my toons were some kind of little adventure. The ZG where I finally got my ZHC. The guild first Xpac epic. The hours upon hours of twilight texts I farmed with my buddy Danny at 3am so he could hit exalted. The MC run where EoD finally dropped. The robe I got from our guild first Illi kill.
A toon handed to you with no history just feels empty.
I wouldn't do it unless you also enjoy playing that class. (@ the farming alt question.)
Also yeah I can never get into premades on the PTR, unless it's like a premade of a class I already play with awesomer gear. I was afraid it would be like this for death knights... but from what I've played of their starter zone quests, they do a decent job of holding your hand through learning the class and making you feel like your character is progressing in some way.
I'd like it if there was some super speedy way to level a character if you already had a few 70's, but I still like gradually getting new abilities and working out how best to use them and how they interact with your other abilities over time. Being given a character you've never played with 40 odd abilities you've never used and being told 'go play' wouldn't be as fun to me.
e: also if I already had a DPS specced class at 70 I wouldn't ever think of levelling another just to farm
I wouldn't make a 70 straight away, leveling gives you time to get to grips with the class. I would however make a 70 for the classes I already have. If only I could have my rogue be a female orc instead of a male undead and if my mage wasn't such a hideous male troll.
That's my thought on it...If I've leveled a class to 70 already and for some reason wanted to reroll the same class on another server or the same class different race on the same server I'd do it.
Half the reason for levelling gradually is learning to your abilities one at a time, and not all at once like with a premade.
Agreed, but given that 1-60 you get new skills ever 2 levels, it's not like you need 4 hours of gameplay to incorperate a new skill or three into your repetoire.
Even with 61-70 and news skill(s), do we really need 2-4 hour levels for one new skill?
I agree that the levelling process is useful, but not so much so that literal days need to be spent learning a few new tricks. Should an FPS take hours per level to let you adjust to picking up a new gun? Nah, you just snag it, blow shit up, and figure out if it fits your playstyle.
Alternatively; people are retards. Most, at least. We all know this, so why sweat coddling the retards when they're going to be retards anyway?
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
With the prominence of the Lich King in this next expansion, a revamping of the Plaguelands with some more high level continent would be very welcome I think.
This is an excellent idea. There are quests in the Plaguelands now but some of them are really tedious and a lot of people never did them in the first place, hitting 60 (or now 58) long before finishing those zones.
In my experience the people who bitch about wanting an instant 70 to start the game are most often PVPers. Sure some people want a new instant 70 alt to do heroics and leech Kara gear with, but I think some amount of bitching about leveling would be alleviated if the arena tournament servers were not just a "pay extra for this limited time event" thing. Then people who just want to arena could go make whatever character they want and not have to whine about needing to grind BG tokens or badges for their arena gear, and people who like playing the game and killing monsters and running instances can stay on normal servers.
People skipping over those quests always make me sad. There are a lot of people in my guild who have never done the Fordling quest line. Which is going to be even more of a shame when people do the Deathknight quests and ask "Who the hell are these guys".
Thomamelas on
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
Half the reason for levelling gradually is learning to your abilities one at a time, and not all at once like with a premade.
Agreed, but given that 1-60 you get new skills ever 2 levels, it's not like you need 4 hours of gameplay to incorperate a new skill or three into your repetoire.
Even with 61-70 and news skill(s), do we really need 2-4 hour levels for one new skill?
I agree that the levelling process is useful, but not so much so that literal days need to be spent learning a few new tricks. Should an FPS take hours per level to let you adjust to picking up a new gun? Nah, you just snag it, blow shit up, and figure out if it fits your playstyle.
Alternatively; people are retards. Most, at least. We all know this, so why sweat coddling the retards when they're going to be retards anyway?
I suppose it just comes down to a question of experience. You don't experience an FPS in the same way at all as you do an RPG (be it an MMO or otherwise). Maybe it's just a symptom of the progression of the genre or this game specifically, but so many people seem to be about the product and not the process. I guess I'm just a 'stop and smell the roses' guy, but man, I can't figure out why anyone would pay 15 clams a month to only start enjoying a game when you're able to do the same thing over and over every day/few times a week.
Different strokes and all that I guess, but still. Does not compute.
I have a question about alts and farming. My main is a shadow priest with about 800 spell damage currently. I'd like an alt dedicated to solo farming of primals and maybe ore and/or herbs. The classes that I've read that are good for farming (in no paticular order) are hunter, warlock, and dual gathering druid with swift flight form.
I do have a hunter at 22, and I'm a litttle sick and tired/bored with it already. Too much feeding, shooting my money away, low bag space, and paranoia about my pet type and skills are bothering me. What do you guys have to say about an alt for only farming? Or is it a silly idea?
Find a class you enjoy playing, use that for farming.
I agree that the levelling process is useful, but not so much so that literal days need to be spent learning a few new tricks. Should an FPS take hours per level to let you adjust to picking up a new gun? Nah, you just snag it, blow shit up, and figure out if it fits your playstyle.
Alternatively; people are retards. Most, at least. We all know this, so why sweat coddling the retards when they're going to be retards anyway?
People skipping over those quests always make me sad. There are a lot of people in my guild who have never done the Fordling quest line. Which is going to be even more of a shame when people do the Deathknight quests and ask "Who the hell are these guys".
The Tirion Fordring quests are still one of the best ways to go from 56-57 or 57-58, it's their fault they didn't do them. Something like The Battle of Darrowshire or Order Must Be Restored are the types of EPL quests you would miss leveling before Outland.
I wouldn't make a 70 straight away, leveling gives you time to get to grips with the class. I would however make a 70 for the classes I already have. If only I could have my rogue be a female orc instead of a male undead and if my mage wasn't such a hideous male troll.
Going from 1-70 would give you about 10,000x more time than you'd need to learn to play a class adequately.
The more you play the game as a whole, the more familiar you feel with other classes, because you see how they operate in groups.
If I were given a fresh 70 rogue, I would be all kinds of sucky, but I feel confident I could operate well in pve within a week of real time.
However, I'm not really tired of Outlands yet. I'd like it to be sped up a little bit(and I am really really tired of old Azeroth content), but the reason I'm not tired of it is that it exceeds Azeroth's design by orders of magnitude.
I agree that the levelling process is useful, but not so much so that literal days need to be spent learning a few new tricks. Should an FPS take hours per level to let you adjust to picking up a new gun? Nah, you just snag it, blow shit up, and figure out if it fits your playstyle.
Alternatively; people are retards. Most, at least. We all know this, so why sweat coddling the retards when they're going to be retards anyway?
People skipping over those quests always make me sad. There are a lot of people in my guild who have never done the Fordling quest line. Which is going to be even more of a shame when people do the Deathknight quests and ask "Who the hell are these guys".
The Tirion Fordring quests are still one of the best ways to go from 56-57 or 57-58, it's their fault they didn't do them. Something like The Battle of Darrowshire or Order Must Be Restored are the types of EPL quests you would miss leveling before Outland.
I did the Fordring quests after I was 60 for a month or so, they didn't impress me any more then any other series of quests until after doing the bits that take you into the instance and then that questline gets noticable.
Especially when you are "escorting" the dudes son.
I suppose it just comes down to a question of experience. You don't experience an FPS in the same way at all as you do an RPG (be it an MMO or otherwise). Maybe it's just a symptom of the progression of the genre or this game specifically, but so many people seem to be about the product and not the process. I guess I'm just a 'stop and smell the roses' guy, but man, I can't figure out why anyone would pay 15 clams a month to only start enjoying a game when you're able to do the same thing over and over every day/few times a week.
Different strokes and all that I guess, but still. Does not compute.
Yes, but we're not debating "stopping and smelling roses", we're talking about the mechanics of the game, and in particular, combat. While it's grossly simplifying gamers and the genre, I see it as being essentially two groups (with shades of grey); the people who will pick up a new ability, ponder where that'll be useful, and assign it into the heirarchy / rotation that they use, recognizing where it'll be handy and action bar'ing / hotkey'ing it as necessary.
Sometimes you overvalue a skill, sometimes you undervalue one.
And then there's the people that just sort of use crap at random.
The first group are more likely to ask other players of the class and research websites and forums to figure out how to gear and play their class at whatever they do, along with personal experience.
The second group are the people who use rend.
There's nothing wrong with taking things casually, slowly and methodically, but bluntly, a Rend'er isn't likely to improve significantly across 2 hours or 20 hours, so why punish everyone with a 20 hour levelling time when you can split the difference at 10ish, making life easier for all?
I level because I enjoy the zones and quests and shenanigans, of course, but I don't need 2 levels to adapt to a new skill or two, so stretching out levelling just makes me wait longer before I can add another new exciting weapon to my repetoire.
Forar on
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
Yes, but we're not debating "stopping and smelling roses", we're talking about the mechanics of the game, and in particular, combat. While it's grossly simplifying gamers and the genre, I see it as being essentially two groups (with shades of grey); the people who will pick up a new ability, ponder where that'll be useful, and assign it into the heirarchy / rotation that they use, recognizing where it'll be handy and action bar'ing / hotkey'ing it as necessary.
Sometimes you overvalue a skill, sometimes you undervalue one.
And then there's the people that just sort of use crap at random.
The first group are more likely to ask other players of the class and research websites and forums to figure out how to gear and play their class at whatever they do, along with personal experience.
The second group are the people who use rend.
There's nothing wrong with taking things casually, slowly and methodically, but bluntly, a Rend'er isn't likely to improve significantly across 2 hours or 20 hours, so why punish everyone with a 20 hour levelling time when you can split the difference at 10ish, making life easier for all?
I level because I enjoy the zones and quests and shenanigans, of course, but I don't need 2 levels to adapt to a new skill or two, so stretching out levelling just makes me wait longer before I can add another new exciting weapon to my repetoire.
But stopping and smelling roses is the impetus for my statement. Bad players are sometimes redeemable, sometimes not, but you're right, that's got very little bearing on how much time they spent leveling, so my beef isn't with that aspect of it.
My beef is with taking what is a very easy and gradual leveling curve and speeding it up so that what once was a five-zone (again out of a possible seven) leveling path is being cut down for what seems to me to be no real reason. The only real argument I've seen presented that supports it is "hey, I don't want to drag my alt through it for the "x"th time". And my response is, "then don't". Which is what prompted the question on my part: If Blizzard offered the ability to just create a level-capped character from the get-go, would you do it? If your (general "you") response is "no", then you can't realistically support the argument that "the game starts at 70", which further begs the question, why speed 60-70 up at all?
To your question, "why punish everyone with a 20 hour levelling time when you can split the difference at 10ish, making life easier for all?", I don't really see it as a punishment at all. Maybe that's because I come from EQ and FFXI, but WoW's leveling period compared to most "traditional" MMOs is hugely forgiving and a breath of fresh air, even before the 20-60 fix. After the fix it's practically a joke. I gained 12 levels in one three-day period. Twelve. That's just unreal, and if we're talking about putting Outlands on that kind of a speed scale, why even bother making people level? It's only ten levels, and it's not difficult in the remotest sense.
I'm not trying to change any minds here, and it really doesn't matter because they're going to do what they want anyway, I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to me.
Which is what prompted the question on my part: If Blizzard offered the ability to just create a level-capped character from the get-go, would you do it? If your (general "you") response is "no", then you can't realistically support the argument that "the game starts at 70", which further begs the question, why speed 60-70 up at all?
To your question, "why punish everyone with a 20 hour levelling time when you can split the difference at 10ish, making life easier for all?", I don't really see it as a punishment at all. Maybe that's because I come from EQ and FFXI, but WoW's leveling period compared to most "traditional" MMOs is hugely forgiving and a breath of fresh air, even before the 20-60 fix. After the fix it's practically a joke. I gained 12 levels in one three-day period. Twelve. That's just unreal, and if we're talking about putting Outlands on that kind of a speed scale, why even bother making people level? It's only ten levels, and it's not difficult in the remotest sense.
I'm not trying to change any minds here, and it really doesn't matter because they're going to do what they want anyway, I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to me.
If Blizzard offered the ability to create level-capped characters from the get go, I wouldn't. And I do believe the game starts at 70. Just because I believe that doesn't mean that I don't recognize an inherent value in the levelling system. I just don't believe that said value extends to making me spend 4+ DAYS getting up to the capped level before I finally have all my skills and the ability to begin gearing that character to be useful in 5 and 10 man content with my crew and their alts.
Also, I've done more than 12 levels in one 3 day period pre-20 to 60 nerf (and these were in the 40/50+ range, not piddly little 1-13 shit). That said, I don't recommend it.
You (and others) make it sound like Blizzard is putting a "ding level 71" button on the create character screen, but even with the improved levelling rate, people still take, what, 24-96 hours out just to get an alt to 60/70 or so? Maybe longer, depending on the class, their luck with gear, understanding of game mechanics and available help for certain quests, chains and instances? Why is a medium/grey area so horrific an idea? Just because EQ and FFXI make grinding/time wasting an artform, shouldn't the MMO genre (including our beloved WoW) aspire to more than that?
No one here (that I can see) is advocating doing level 61 to 70 in 5 hours flat, but when you have things like arenas (70 only), EOTS (70 only) a significant number of 70 only 5 to 25 man content (70 onl... sorry, I was on a roll there), even if the game doesn't literally start at 70, there's a hefty amount of content that does, and much of it is more rewarding (in terms of character progression through gold earned, gear and other perks) that for many (I daresay most) people see 1-69 as just a learning/stumbling/pacing block on the way tO much of the "good stuff".
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
the leveling changes for 60-70 changes my plan for making a DK or not.
I wasn't going to level a DK, I didn't want to miss out on the fun that is those first runs through a brand new instance, but now I think I will since I know the first half of outland pretty well. I could probably crank those zones out quickly and catch up to a point near my friends and not miss out on too many instances.
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Exactly. It takes longer, because it was an entire expansion.
I'm taking a mage through Outland and I'm enjoying the slower pace from Azeroth.
"Blah blah but MMOs are a pointless waste of time anyway."
Yes, but at least at 70 I can attempt to have some fun. Killing my 472,547th ogre is dumb as shit. As far as I'm concerned if you have two max level characters all other characters on your account should have permanent rested bonus.
This is my sixth character. It is still fun.
I'm sure some of you psychopaths with 8 level 70s are going to tell me its not that bad, but i'm not like you.
Grats. I think you should have the option to turn off exp and stay there forever. I, on the other hand, have no fucking interest in spending another 6 hours churning out another level with zero fun involved just so I can get to 70 when the game starts.
Exactly. I have four 70s. I'm tired of doing the exact same shit in Outland. I've done the Azeroth quests, but I can change it up a little bit at least. Outland is a single track.
With regard to the revamped SM, it actually looks like you'd be able to hit all of the bosses in short order. What seemed most odd to me though was that the graveyard side only had the torture chamber and a small courtyard. Seems likely that Thalnos will be there. Just makes me wonder if the rare spawns will be removed all together and what might come of the Headless Horseman. I suppose he could still come in there though.
I never really considered SM much of a problem but I'm glad to know that they're at least working on Azeroth.
Christ those days were awful. All of that fucking work for one goddamn fight.
I'm sure they'll balance it however they feel like, but frankly going through Outlands (I've done it four times now) is balanced pretty perfectly as-is. Is it boring to do it more than 'x' number of times? In some zones/quests, sure (hello Nesingwary), but the whole point of alting is experiencing the game with another set of abilities. When you alt, you're saying "hey, I'd like to go through this again". The argument that it should be faster than it was the first time you went through it just doesn't make sense to me.
Before the fix to Azeroth's leveling curve, yeah, there was definitely a need for some rebalancing. I just leveled my warlock since the fix and there were whole zones I didn't even need to go into. Western/Eastern Plaguelands, Blasted Lands, Searing Gorge, Burning Steppes, the list goes on. Questing through those zones was pretty much mandatory before the fix, and now you can just skip them. Fine, no problem, but to do the same thing to Outlands? As it is, if you're doing it right, Netherstorm and Shadowmoon Valley should be virtually untouched by the time you hit 70. There's two whole zones of quests (out of a possible seven) that you don't even have to quest in to hit 70. And you want it to go...faster? So, skip four zones out of seven? Five? How much of Outlands do you want to flat-out ignore?
My point is that this content was developed and a lot of these places are chock full of quests, excellent rewards and rep. Anything can be improved upon, but to homogenize the experience to the point that someone can completely bypass half of the content you developed seems an odd choice to me.
For some people, they don't give two shits that they are missing on whole zones and the quests in them. They just want to get to 70 as soon as they can. For badge gear, pvp, raiding etc. For most people, the game starts at 70.
Xbox Live: Kunohara
Though I suppose that explains why accounts are being bought and sold so frequently. Some people just want to jump right into the endgame and bypass leveling entirely.
Let me ask, though, just a quick poll: who here would create a level-capped character and play it in instances/raids/whatever if Blizzard allowed players that option?
I would never make a full level 70 off the bat, I do learn a bit by leveling, instancing and grouping on the way to 70. And there are moments in low level instance when every one is not taking it as serious as a herioc or a raid and you have the lol moments of stupid.
This is an excellent idea. There are quests in the Plaguelands now but some of them are really tedious and a lot of people never did them in the first place, hitting 60 (or now 58) long before finishing those zones.
In my experience the people who bitch about wanting an instant 70 to start the game are most often PVPers. Sure some people want a new instant 70 alt to do heroics and leech Kara gear with, but I think some amount of bitching about leveling would be alleviated if the arena tournament servers were not just a "pay extra for this limited time event" thing. Then people who just want to arena could go make whatever character they want and not have to whine about needing to grind BG tokens or badges for their arena gear, and people who like playing the game and killing monsters and running instances can stay on normal servers.
I do have a hunter at 22, and I'm a litttle sick and tired/bored with it already. Too much feeding, shooting my money away, low bag space, and paranoia about my pet type and skills are bothering me. What do you guys have to say about an alt for only farming? Or is it a silly idea?
No.
I have done this. On the PTR's. I don't even like doing it with my own freakin' class.
All the experience, all the gear, all the rep, all the everything I have on my toons were some kind of little adventure. The ZG where I finally got my ZHC. The guild first Xpac epic. The hours upon hours of twilight texts I farmed with my buddy Danny at 3am so he could hit exalted. The MC run where EoD finally dropped. The robe I got from our guild first Illi kill.
A toon handed to you with no history just feels empty.
Also yeah I can never get into premades on the PTR, unless it's like a premade of a class I already play with awesomer gear. I was afraid it would be like this for death knights... but from what I've played of their starter zone quests, they do a decent job of holding your hand through learning the class and making you feel like your character is progressing in some way.
e: also if I already had a DPS specced class at 70 I wouldn't ever think of levelling another just to farm
Only really level another class if you want to play it (and think it would be fun).
That's my thought on it...If I've leveled a class to 70 already and for some reason wanted to reroll the same class on another server or the same class different race on the same server I'd do it.
The other half, of course, is to squeeze your fifteen bucks a month while you get to 70. :P
Welcome to the dark side.
Agreed, but given that 1-60 you get new skills ever 2 levels, it's not like you need 4 hours of gameplay to incorperate a new skill or three into your repetoire.
Even with 61-70 and news skill(s), do we really need 2-4 hour levels for one new skill?
I agree that the levelling process is useful, but not so much so that literal days need to be spent learning a few new tricks. Should an FPS take hours per level to let you adjust to picking up a new gun? Nah, you just snag it, blow shit up, and figure out if it fits your playstyle.
Alternatively; people are retards. Most, at least. We all know this, so why sweat coddling the retards when they're going to be retards anyway?
People skipping over those quests always make me sad. There are a lot of people in my guild who have never done the Fordling quest line. Which is going to be even more of a shame when people do the Deathknight quests and ask "Who the hell are these guys".
Different strokes and all that I guess, but still. Does not compute.
Find a class you enjoy playing, use that for farming.
Agreex500
The Tirion Fordring quests are still one of the best ways to go from 56-57 or 57-58, it's their fault they didn't do them. Something like The Battle of Darrowshire or Order Must Be Restored are the types of EPL quests you would miss leveling before Outland.
Going from 1-70 would give you about 10,000x more time than you'd need to learn to play a class adequately.
The more you play the game as a whole, the more familiar you feel with other classes, because you see how they operate in groups.
If I were given a fresh 70 rogue, I would be all kinds of sucky, but I feel confident I could operate well in pve within a week of real time.
However, I'm not really tired of Outlands yet. I'd like it to be sped up a little bit(and I am really really tired of old Azeroth content), but the reason I'm not tired of it is that it exceeds Azeroth's design by orders of magnitude.
I did the Fordring quests after I was 60 for a month or so, they didn't impress me any more then any other series of quests until after doing the bits that take you into the instance and then that questline gets noticable.
Especially when you are "escorting" the dudes son.
Yes, but we're not debating "stopping and smelling roses", we're talking about the mechanics of the game, and in particular, combat. While it's grossly simplifying gamers and the genre, I see it as being essentially two groups (with shades of grey); the people who will pick up a new ability, ponder where that'll be useful, and assign it into the heirarchy / rotation that they use, recognizing where it'll be handy and action bar'ing / hotkey'ing it as necessary.
Sometimes you overvalue a skill, sometimes you undervalue one.
And then there's the people that just sort of use crap at random.
The first group are more likely to ask other players of the class and research websites and forums to figure out how to gear and play their class at whatever they do, along with personal experience.
The second group are the people who use rend.
There's nothing wrong with taking things casually, slowly and methodically, but bluntly, a Rend'er isn't likely to improve significantly across 2 hours or 20 hours, so why punish everyone with a 20 hour levelling time when you can split the difference at 10ish, making life easier for all?
I level because I enjoy the zones and quests and shenanigans, of course, but I don't need 2 levels to adapt to a new skill or two, so stretching out levelling just makes me wait longer before I can add another new exciting weapon to my repetoire.
My beef is with taking what is a very easy and gradual leveling curve and speeding it up so that what once was a five-zone (again out of a possible seven) leveling path is being cut down for what seems to me to be no real reason. The only real argument I've seen presented that supports it is "hey, I don't want to drag my alt through it for the "x"th time". And my response is, "then don't". Which is what prompted the question on my part: If Blizzard offered the ability to just create a level-capped character from the get-go, would you do it? If your (general "you") response is "no", then you can't realistically support the argument that "the game starts at 70", which further begs the question, why speed 60-70 up at all?
To your question, "why punish everyone with a 20 hour levelling time when you can split the difference at 10ish, making life easier for all?", I don't really see it as a punishment at all. Maybe that's because I come from EQ and FFXI, but WoW's leveling period compared to most "traditional" MMOs is hugely forgiving and a breath of fresh air, even before the 20-60 fix. After the fix it's practically a joke. I gained 12 levels in one three-day period. Twelve. That's just unreal, and if we're talking about putting Outlands on that kind of a speed scale, why even bother making people level? It's only ten levels, and it's not difficult in the remotest sense.
I'm not trying to change any minds here, and it really doesn't matter because they're going to do what they want anyway, I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to me.
I can't take you seriously with that avatar.
If Blizzard offered the ability to create level-capped characters from the get go, I wouldn't. And I do believe the game starts at 70. Just because I believe that doesn't mean that I don't recognize an inherent value in the levelling system. I just don't believe that said value extends to making me spend 4+ DAYS getting up to the capped level before I finally have all my skills and the ability to begin gearing that character to be useful in 5 and 10 man content with my crew and their alts.
Also, I've done more than 12 levels in one 3 day period pre-20 to 60 nerf (and these were in the 40/50+ range, not piddly little 1-13 shit). That said, I don't recommend it.
You (and others) make it sound like Blizzard is putting a "ding level 71" button on the create character screen, but even with the improved levelling rate, people still take, what, 24-96 hours out just to get an alt to 60/70 or so? Maybe longer, depending on the class, their luck with gear, understanding of game mechanics and available help for certain quests, chains and instances? Why is a medium/grey area so horrific an idea? Just because EQ and FFXI make grinding/time wasting an artform, shouldn't the MMO genre (including our beloved WoW) aspire to more than that?
No one here (that I can see) is advocating doing level 61 to 70 in 5 hours flat, but when you have things like arenas (70 only), EOTS (70 only) a significant number of 70 only 5 to 25 man content (70 onl... sorry, I was on a roll there), even if the game doesn't literally start at 70, there's a hefty amount of content that does, and much of it is more rewarding (in terms of character progression through gold earned, gear and other perks) that for many (I daresay most) people see 1-69 as just a learning/stumbling/pacing block on the way tO much of the "good stuff".
this
you can get herbs without even shifting. wait for the mob to pat away, go right in there, grats on herbs.
Add in the fact that druids are one of the funnest classes to level and you have your farming alt.
I wasn't going to level a DK, I didn't want to miss out on the fun that is those first runs through a brand new instance, but now I think I will since I know the first half of outland pretty well. I could probably crank those zones out quickly and catch up to a point near my friends and not miss out on too many instances.