Fucking retards, and the fact that "tanking classes" and "actual tanks" are two very uneven lists.
There are LOTS of warriors and paladins in the game, and a healthy number of druids. The number of them that are tanks is a lot smaller, and the number of those that are any good is shockingly tiny.
There's your bottleneck right there, point stands, /pelvicthrust.
Well, on my Warrior @ 70 I haven't really bothered with heroics, obviously, but I've tanked everything up to and at 70 as Fury. It's shocking to me how much faster it goes even in my terribad gear when I mark and pace pulls properly. As a Warrior at least, and I'd say as a feral Druid too, you can tank instances. You don't really have to be Prot.
But I mean what really irks me is the people complaining about tank shortages are sometimes people who play tank classes then refuse to tank because it's too complicated for them and they'd rather be horrible at dps spec.
I tanked ramparts, bf, slave pens, Undebog and Mana tombs as an arms warrior. I have seen and have a hatred for a certain fury warrior who said he could tank but had no idea what to do or what a sheild was for
I do question arms warrios trying to dual weild when one of them had gorehowl
A. Leveling in WoW encourages soloing, thus even classes that can tank/heal rarely know how to do so unless forced to.
B. Generally, the optimal spec for healing/tanking is not the one that is optimal for leveling. Feral Druid is the one exception I can think to this, and you could make a case for Protection paladin if played right. But Shadow Priests, Ret Pallies, Arms Warriors all sap the pool for potential healers/tanks. Of course, at a certain level even those "off-specs" can do those roles fine, but more than often they don't want to.
C. Being a tank/healer is rarely worth the complaints you'll get, and thus people just stop making the effort. I found this out real fast on my Protection Paladin---had my whole group leave after one wipe without a word---not fun at all. Next time, re-specced as a Ret Paladin, I just whacked things with my axe and had a lot more fun because there was no pressure on me (or far less).
D. Tanks/healers that are good (or even decent) get picked up by guilds and are often unavailable for PuGging duty because they spend far more time playing with people that aren't terrible.
Fucking retards, and the fact that "tanking classes" and "actual tanks" are two very uneven lists.
There are LOTS of warriors and paladins in the game, and a healthy number of druids. The number of them that are tanks is a lot smaller, and the number of those that are any good is shockingly tiny.
There's your bottleneck right there, point stands, /pelvicthrust.
Well, on my Warrior @ 70 I haven't really bothered with heroics, obviously, but I've tanked everything up to and at 70 as Fury. It's shocking to me how much faster it goes even in my terribad gear when I mark and pace pulls properly. As a Warrior at least, and I'd say as a feral Druid too, you can tank instances. You don't really have to be Prot.
But I mean what really irks me is the people complaining about tank shortages are sometimes people who play tank classes then refuse to tank because it's too complicated for them and they'd rather be horrible at dps spec.
I remember the one time I tried to tank Scarlet Library---I had all Ret gear on but since we had no tank I offered to try and tank (my first attempt at doing so) with the sword and board I had in my inventory.
Instead of people thanking me for tanking for them, all that happened was that a couple of the group kept on complaining that it would have been going better if only I was specced Prot. Any bad things that happened that were my fault were probably due more to my inexperience than my spec (though Prot helps) but this went right over the head of these whingers and once we had a bad pull and wiped, we got bad respawns and people starting leaving.
This is actually what inspired me to spec Prot and try to tank properly, but that didn't really turn out so well.
You should be able to tank low level instances just through virtue of Righteous Fury and Consecration, but you're right in that the naysayers and douchebags don't help when you're trying to tank as an offspec. And it's really easily done at that level if you can find ONE other person with a brain. It's really hard to do so leveling up nowadays though, which is why I don't make a new character without a friend along for the ride.
I tanked Underbog and Ramparts on my warlock while leveling up because we couldn't find real tanks. The DPS had to let me build some agro, but SL + a lot of STA gear and a good healer can actually take a huge beating. Some of the bosses got tricky though
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Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
You should be able to tank low level instances just through virtue of Righteous Fury and Consecration, but you're right in that the naysayers and douchebags don't help when you're trying to tank as an offspec. And it's really easily done at that level if you can find ONE other person with a brain. It's really hard to do so leveling up nowadays though, which is why I don't make a new character without a friend along for the ride.
I think the biggest I've seen in PuG's, honestly, is the simple lack of focus firing. Consecrate is great for keeping aggro, but it's hard to maintain a mana pool to tank with when everyone is hitting different people and I'm spamming consecrate to keep them on me.
But I've been in some very, very good PuG's too---like I healed for RFK with my Priest with one main tank and another sort of off-tank who became main tank when the Druid left. The DPS focus fired well and generally did a good job. I had a similar experience in RFD with my Paladin.
Hell, even a failed trip like my one to SFK was fun because no one was an asshole. Our warrior left like ten minutes in without saying anything, so with two priests, two rogues and a hunter we decided to give it a shot. The holy priest left pretty quick (don't remember why), but we attempted the rest with a hunter pet tank. We managed to down a couple of bosses, but got tripped up by a bad pull and a patrol--at which point the rogue had to go eat, and being a three-man party we decided to call it a day. But I enjoyed it all the same.
See, this is why I'm leveling a feral druid -- the ability to solo well in cat form (my schedule means I'm 90-95% solo) with the potential to tank in bear form without having to respec. I just mildly dread my first attempts at tanking, likely not until I got into the 60's.
It's not that hard to get into. I like to pull with a barkskin + hurricane for some initial threat, spam some swipes just in case, then focus lacerates on the DPS target.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited July 2008
The NDA is lifted from the WotLK beta? Sweet. Confirmation of insanity is go.
My God, the hunter changes.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited July 2008
I looked at the pally changes. I need to see a talent tree, dammit. The paladin changes are intense.
Munkus Beaver on
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"If a hunter tames a pet that is more than five levels beneath than the hunter’s level, then the pet jumps to five levels beneath than the hunter’s level."
:shock:
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited July 2008
Ahaha, the only classes withou a talent tree are the two that I have at 70.
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Kevin CristI make the devil hit his kneesand say the 'our father'Registered Userregular
edited July 2008
o All demon abilities and spells will automatically be learned as pets gain levels. Demon Master trainers will be removed.
Giving ret paladins some good CC to make them useful in smaller number PvE dungeons is a good idea. I'm going to assume that the PvP set bonus is no longer - HoJ CD when the talent is 30 (!) seconds now.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited July 2008
The hunter changes are outstanding. I'm glad the pet talent trees thing is confirmed, as well as the individual pet types having a unique ability and every pet having access to focus dumps.
Robunkus shall make a return!
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FairchildRabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?"Registered Userregular
edited July 2008
Demons train for free ! What ??!! Do you know how much gold I dumped into training up all of my demons on everything ??!!
Holy mother of god, shamans get water shield at lvl 20, wrath of air totem is 10% spell haste, tree of life has no snare and can cast HT, OOC for druids now procs on spells, Moonkin form no longer gives you mana from meleeing but grants you 2% of your mana on spell crit, and uh...feral instinct doesn't improve bear threat anymore. Guess they'll have a higher innate amount.
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Kevin CristI make the devil hit his kneesand say the 'our father'Registered Userregular
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited July 2008
I hadn't thought about it before, but I'm guessing they are going for much more consolidation among gear so that many, many classes can use the same set of shit. Course, it means that mages will be rolling against priests and the like, but the end result should be less 'trash' gear.
Munkus Beaver on
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Some really great changes in there, though I'm sure there are some things in there also that will upset people.
But seriously, the whole "underleveled pet" issue and the demon trainer thing are two great changes that should have been made a long time ago. Glad they've fixed that now.
More importantly, I wonder when we can find out whether or not we've been accepted to the beta, if there even is only round of acceptance.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited July 2008
Also: New Talent: Cleanse Spirit (Restoration) - Cleanse the spirit of a friendly target, removing 1 poison effect, 1 disease effect, and 1 curse effect.
Go go shammy cleanse! That's actually really neat, it perfectly aligns with the pally cleanse. Now I just hope that the weapon mastery talent I heard about is true.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Also: New Talent: Cleanse Spirit (Restoration) - Cleanse the spirit of a friendly target, removing 1 poison effect, 1 disease effect, and 1 curse effect.
Go go shammy cleanse! That's actually really neat, it perfectly aligns with the pally cleanse. Now I just hope that the weapon mastery talent I heard about is true.
All the leaked alpha talents are true, all of this stuff was in there save for Paladin/Hunter stuff and a bunch of Shaman totem tweaks and other various things.
Also WTF is with the forum tonight, keep timing out on pages.
"o Windfury Totem is now a flat 20% melee haste totem. All ranks have been modified."
Has me really WTFing for Alliance PvE Ret paladins.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited July 2008
Why just alliance? Not a good change for pallies in general, but they do scale exceptionally with haste rating with exceptional gear. We kinda gotta see the talent trees for the ret pallies and the changes to make a final call, though. Word on the street is that pallies are getting massively overhauled, receiving the most changes of any class.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Why just alliance? Not a good change for pallies in general, but they do scale exceptionally with haste rating with exceptional gear. We kinda gotta see the talent trees for the ret pallies and the changes to make a final call, though. Word on the street is that pallies are getting massively overhauled, receiving the most changes of any class.
Well Seal of Blood scales ridiculously with haste. It's a PvP nerf for a lot of people not just Paladins, but for SoB it's a PvE buff. Anyway, it looks like both factions are getting SoB now anyway so it's moot.
Hit Rating, Critical Strike Rating, and Haste Rating now modify both melee attacks and spells.
Circle of Healing (Holy): Now works on any targets in the caster’s raid, and is now a “smart†heal and chooses the lowest health targets to heal first within it’s range. Also now has a 6 second cooldown.
o All demon abilities and spells will automatically be learned as pets gain levels. Demon Master trainers will be removed.
o Fel Stamina (Demonology) has been merged with Fel Intellect into Fel Vitality.
o New Talent: Eradication (Affliction) - Your Corruption, Siphon Life and Curse of Agony ticks have a 5/10/15% chance to increase your spell haste by 20% for 8 sec. This effect has a 10 second cooldown.
o Death Wish (Fury) no longer makes you immune to Fear effects.
o Death Wish and Sweeping Strikes have swapped locations in their respective talent trees.
o Overpower now only has one rank and no longer causes any bonus damage (i.e. weapon damage only).
o Steady Shot now uses ammo. In result, its bonus damage has been slightly reduced. Players can notice a damage increase based upon what ammo they use.
Definitely some interesting changes. Although, not a fan of the Warrior's (my only 70). Seems like some nerfs to me. Especially with the Death Wish change, I don't want it over in my Fury Tree.
Definitely some interesting changes. Although, not a fan of the Warrior's (my only 70). Seems like some nerfs to me. Especially with the Death Wish change, I don't want it over in my Fury Tree.
I'll be honest, I'm laughing pretty hard right now
Posts
I tanked ramparts, bf, slave pens, Undebog and Mana tombs as an arms warrior. I have seen and have a hatred for a certain fury warrior who said he could tank but had no idea what to do or what a sheild was for
I do question arms warrios trying to dual weild when one of them had gorehowl
A. Leveling in WoW encourages soloing, thus even classes that can tank/heal rarely know how to do so unless forced to.
B. Generally, the optimal spec for healing/tanking is not the one that is optimal for leveling. Feral Druid is the one exception I can think to this, and you could make a case for Protection paladin if played right. But Shadow Priests, Ret Pallies, Arms Warriors all sap the pool for potential healers/tanks. Of course, at a certain level even those "off-specs" can do those roles fine, but more than often they don't want to.
C. Being a tank/healer is rarely worth the complaints you'll get, and thus people just stop making the effort. I found this out real fast on my Protection Paladin---had my whole group leave after one wipe without a word---not fun at all. Next time, re-specced as a Ret Paladin, I just whacked things with my axe and had a lot more fun because there was no pressure on me (or far less).
D. Tanks/healers that are good (or even decent) get picked up by guilds and are often unavailable for PuGging duty because they spend far more time playing with people that aren't terrible.
I remember the one time I tried to tank Scarlet Library---I had all Ret gear on but since we had no tank I offered to try and tank (my first attempt at doing so) with the sword and board I had in my inventory.
Instead of people thanking me for tanking for them, all that happened was that a couple of the group kept on complaining that it would have been going better if only I was specced Prot. Any bad things that happened that were my fault were probably due more to my inexperience than my spec (though Prot helps) but this went right over the head of these whingers and once we had a bad pull and wiped, we got bad respawns and people starting leaving.
This is actually what inspired me to spec Prot and try to tank properly, but that didn't really turn out so well.
Soon.
Hell yeah, bring on the OP talents for my Paladin, please. I know Disruptor is waiting patiently, too!
Well there was a news post at wotlkwiki and that was enough for me.
I think the biggest I've seen in PuG's, honestly, is the simple lack of focus firing. Consecrate is great for keeping aggro, but it's hard to maintain a mana pool to tank with when everyone is hitting different people and I'm spamming consecrate to keep them on me.
But I've been in some very, very good PuG's too---like I healed for RFK with my Priest with one main tank and another sort of off-tank who became main tank when the Druid left. The DPS focus fired well and generally did a good job. I had a similar experience in RFD with my Paladin.
Hell, even a failed trip like my one to SFK was fun because no one was an asshole. Our warrior left like ten minutes in without saying anything, so with two priests, two rogues and a hunter we decided to give it a shot. The holy priest left pretty quick (don't remember why), but we attempted the rest with a hunter pet tank. We managed to down a couple of bosses, but got tripped up by a bad pull and a patrol--at which point the rogue had to go eat, and being a three-man party we decided to call it a day. But I enjoyed it all the same.
I can has Paladin talents now?
http://deathknight.info/2008/07/wotlk-beta-patch-notes/ beta patch notes, haven't even looked at them myself yet.
My God, the hunter changes.
BUBBLE AW? YES PLZ.
:shock:
Praise the demon lords.
Steam: YOU FACE JARAXXUS| Twitch.tv: CainLoveless
Giving ret paladins some good CC to make them useful in smaller number PvE dungeons is a good idea. I'm going to assume that the PvP set bonus is no longer - HoJ CD when the talent is 30 (!) seconds now.
Robunkus shall make a return!
I know! I want a refund! :P
Steam: YOU FACE JARAXXUS| Twitch.tv: CainLoveless
LOLCOMBATROGUES
But seriously, the whole "underleveled pet" issue and the demon trainer thing are two great changes that should have been made a long time ago. Glad they've fixed that now.
Go go shammy cleanse! That's actually really neat, it perfectly aligns with the pally cleanse. Now I just hope that the weapon mastery talent I heard about is true.
Edit: But they removed Wand Specialization....which is actually a pretty great leveling talent.
All the leaked alpha talents are true, all of this stuff was in there save for Paladin/Hunter stuff and a bunch of Shaman totem tweaks and other various things.
Also WTF is with the forum tonight, keep timing out on pages.
"o Windfury Totem is now a flat 20% melee haste totem. All ranks have been modified."
Has me really WTFing for Alliance PvE Ret paladins.
Well Seal of Blood scales ridiculously with haste. It's a PvP nerf for a lot of people not just Paladins, but for SoB it's a PvE buff. Anyway, it looks like both factions are getting SoB now anyway so it's moot.
"Pick Lock and Disarm Trap no longer require Thieve's Tools."
"Vanish no longer requires the reagent Flash Powder. "
Because rogues just need more bag space. :P
Heh.
"Clever Traps (Survival) has been renamed "Trap Mastery.""
"Trap Mastery (Survival) has been removed. "
Definitely some interesting changes. Although, not a fan of the Warrior's (my only 70). Seems like some nerfs to me. Especially with the Death Wish change, I don't want it over in my Fury Tree.
Steam: abunchofdaftpunk | PSN: noautomobilesgo | Lastfm: sjchszeppelin | Backloggery: colincummings | 3DS FC: 1392-6019-0219 |
I'll be honest, I'm laughing pretty hard right now