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KOTOR MMO officially confirmed (No, seriously)

2

Posts

  • korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Jasconius wrote: »
    artifexite wrote: »
    Can I go blaster jedi? That's all that really matters. Blaster jedi.

    We're sorry, but the name "Ky1e |<atarn" has already been taken.

    I'm thinking more along the lines of Jedi Jesus from Scorchy's KOTOR II Let's Play.

    korodullin on
    ZvOMJnu.png
    - The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
  • ScooterScooter regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    But on the other hand, having limited experience in SWG taught me something I pretty much already knew: Given the choice, everyone and their mother will be a HK-47.

    fixed

    Scooter on
  • Dyrwen66Dyrwen66 the other's insane Denver CORegistered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Scooter wrote: »
    But on the other hand, having limited experience in SWG taught me something I pretty much already knew: Given the choice, everyone and their mother will be a HK-47.

    fixed

    Hey. Hey we might get to choose droid as our race of choice. That'd be pretty badass, if the customization was there.

    Dyrwen66 on
    Just an ancient PA person who doesn't leave the house much.
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    I don't really want everyone to be jedi, since I sort of want to not be, and there isn't really an option where players can be jedi and nonjedi, and the nonjedi don't sort of get shafted.

    Still, a neat way to get away with everyone being jedi would be to set the game during the jedi civil war, and just make a sneaky pvp focused game.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    NREqxl5.jpg
    do you lack faith, brother?
    or do you believe?
  • widowsonwidowson regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Scooter wrote: »
    But on the other hand, having limited experience in SWG taught me something I pretty much already knew: Given the choice, everyone and their mother will be a Mandalorian.

    fixed

    Fixed for reals...Di'kut

    widowson on
    -I owe nothing to Women's Lib.

    Margaret Thatcher
  • Bendery It Like BeckhamBendery It Like Beckham Hopeless Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    hopefully they have other force sensitive characters other than just jedi. Not full on force users, but to have characters with awesome reflexes and insane luck like han solo. That's who I'd want to be.

    Bendery It Like Beckham on
  • DevilGuyDevilGuy regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    I'm not all that concerned with everyone playing a Jedi, hell I'd like to play one myself, but I bet when everyone sees all the saber wielders running around they'll all start rolling bounty hunters to get easy kills, then everyone will roll whatever kills bounty hunter's easy.

    The trick to keeping the Jedi population in check while not limiting options is to set up a cycle of FotM classes and use that to up other class type populations, a lot of people will stay with those FotM classes because they like the playstyle.

    Another thing that people aren't taking into account with everyone rolling Jedi is that your character in an MMO isn't supposed to be just another joe schmoe, they're supposed to be special, that one in a thousand that gets to be a Han solo or Jango Fett or yes, a Jedi, a good way to deal with it would be to give the game a profusion of NPC's and gathering spots for different kinds of players.

    DevilGuy on
  • HevachHevach regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Lewisham wrote: »
    -SPI- wrote: »
    I don't know about this. I loved Kotor, but the things I loved in Kotor (or any bioware rpg) and the things I love in the MMOs I play aren't the same things.

    Although maybe this will be a new kind of MMO.

    Yeah, exactly what I was thinking.

    The awesome KOTOR storyline that meant your choices affected people was :^:.

    The wonderful conversation system was :^:.

    The chance to make Bastilla give up her life for your penis was :^:.

    These have not yet translated well to MMOs. Apart from the last one.

    What the hell kind of MMOs do you play and is there a free trial?

    Hevach on
  • YoshuaYoshua regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    DevilGuy wrote: »
    I'm not all that concerned with everyone playing a Jedi, hell I'd like to play one myself, but I bet when everyone sees all the saber wielders running around they'll all start rolling bounty hunters to get easy kills, then everyone will roll whatever kills bounty hunter's easy.

    The trick to keeping the Jedi population in check while not limiting options is to set up a cycle of FotM classes and use that to up other class type populations, a lot of people will stay with those FotM classes because they like the playstyle.

    Another thing that people aren't taking into account with everyone rolling Jedi is that your character in an MMO isn't supposed to be just another joe schmoe, they're supposed to be special, that one in a thousand that gets to be a Han solo or Jango Fett or yes, a Jedi, a good way to deal with it would be to give the game a profusion of NPC's and gathering spots for different kinds of players.

    FoTM classes just show a weakness in the game's basic mechanics and design. If the time is taken to create or adapt a real game system to the code, then balance issues should be small and FoTM classes should not really exist.

    You're not actually suggesting they deliberatly create a shoddy game system just so they have to constantly change classes to create FoTM's are you? Because that is a really shitty way to create variety.

    Anyways that shit all sounds like what was tried in SWG, and that turned out oh so well.

    Yoshua on
  • DevilGuyDevilGuy regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Yoshua wrote: »
    DevilGuy wrote: »
    I'm not all that concerned with everyone playing a Jedi, hell I'd like to play one myself, but I bet when everyone sees all the saber wielders running around they'll all start rolling bounty hunters to get easy kills, then everyone will roll whatever kills bounty hunter's easy.

    The trick to keeping the Jedi population in check while not limiting options is to set up a cycle of FotM classes and use that to up other class type populations, a lot of people will stay with those FotM classes because they like the playstyle.

    Another thing that people aren't taking into account with everyone rolling Jedi is that your character in an MMO isn't supposed to be just another joe schmoe, they're supposed to be special, that one in a thousand that gets to be a Han solo or Jango Fett or yes, a Jedi, a good way to deal with it would be to give the game a profusion of NPC's and gathering spots for different kinds of players.

    FoTM classes just show a weakness in the game's basic mechanics and design. If the time is taken to create or adapt a real game system to the code, then balance issues should be small and FoTM classes should not really exist.

    You're not actually suggesting they deliberatly create a shoddy game system just so they have to constantly change classes to create FoTM's are you? Because that is a really shitty way to create variety.

    Anyways that shit all sounds like what was tried in SWG, and that turned out oh so well.

    not necessarily if you have the classes properly balanced from the start you can tweak it to give people incentive to go in one direction or the other, then all you have to do is set it back to your original balanced state and act like it's being progressively patched rather than regressively patched, in a rock paper sisors model it wouldn't be that hard to do.

    and honestly, balance? you're kidding yourself, name one game that has delineated classes that everyone considers to be balanced. No matter what you do you always end up with half the community asking for buffs they don't need because they think other PC's should go down as easily as NPC's.

    DevilGuy on
  • HembotHembot Registered User
    edited July 2008
    If it's like Kotor are there going to be six jedi classes? That doesn't help the jedi swarm problem either.

    Also there could be a lot of PvE detractors for having to many of one class. While PvP would be best-off balanced, a jedi can't shield himself from everything with his lightsaber. And they still get hit when to many people are shooting at them at once. Basically I could see them solving the jedi problem with a lot of PvE balance. No one wants to be sitting in LFG and solo play all the time in an MMO, especially if they end up looking like a carbon copy of everyone else.

    Jedi also lack gear. Sure you can make some robe and lightsaber variety but I don't see as much customization with their gear as with their abilities. I don't see them having a crafting profession either...unless it is seweing and making lahzor swardz. Economy may be one of the things that causes people to go other routes.

    Hembot on
  • DyvionDyvion regular Baking in AZRegistered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Hembot wrote: »
    If it's like Kotor are there going to be six jedi classes? That doesn't help the jedi swarm problem either.

    Also there could be a lot of PvE detractors for having to many of one class. While PvP would be best-off balanced, a jedi can't shield himself from everything with his lightsaber. And they still get hit when to many people are shooting at them at once. Basically I could see them solving the jedi problem with a lot of PvE balance. No one wants to be sitting in LFG and solo play all the time in an MMO, especially if they end up looking like a carbon copy of everyone else.

    Jedi also lack gear. Sure you can make some robe and lightsaber variety but I don't see as much customization with their gear as with their abilities. I don't see them having a crafting profession either...unless it is seweing and making lahzor swardz. Economy may be one of the things that causes people to go other routes.

    Also... there could be people out there who don't wanna be a tool like every other 12 year old jedi running around with a lazer penis. I mean, I would much rather have a gigantic rifle I tote around... or a massive gleaming shaft of steel I impale people with. You know? :winky:

    Dyvion on
    Steam: No Safety In Life
    Magic Online: Dyvion -- Eternal: Dyvion+9393 -- Hex: FortyTwo
  • CowSharkCowShark regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    widowson wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    But on the other hand, having limited experience in SWG taught me something I pretty much already knew: Given the choice, everyone and their mother will be a Wookiee.

    fixed

    Fixed for reals...Di'kut

    How many revisions till this sentence becomes correct?

    Also, there's no good way to keep the jedi population in check without disappointing people. And left unchecked, people will be disappointed when jedi aren't special.

    CowShark on
  • SeptusSeptus regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    They're special, because they use the force and they have lightsabers. I don't think people(other than the asshole elitists) will have a problem with everyone else having access to jedi, as long as being a jedi is fun and feels kind of like it did in KOTOR.

    Septus on
    PSN: Kurahoshi1
  • SammyFSammyF regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Septus wrote: »
    They're special, because they use the force and they have lightsabers. I don't think people(other than the asshole elitists) will have a problem with everyone else having access to jedi, as long as being a jedi is fun and feels kind of like it did in KOTOR.

    I'm all in favor of equal access, but equal access does not mean instant access or easy access. Pratically-speaking, if you want Jedi to be as powerful in KOTOR MMO as they were in the original KOTOR, then giving everyone the choice to either roll a Jedi or not roll a Jedi is like giving everyone in WoW the choice between rolling a Paladin and rolling a tree.

    Ideally, I'd like to see Jedi as an unlockable class, much the same way your character in KOTOR unlocks his Jedi powers in that game. I'd like to see multiple paths to being a Jedi, an element of randomness to where these "unlocking" quests are located so that one player may find the quest on Nar Shadaa while another finds it on Hoth, and an element of permadeth for Jedi-characters to keep the population low.

    SammyF on
  • ScooterScooter regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    SammyF wrote: »
    Septus wrote: »
    They're special, because they use the force and they have lightsabers. I don't think people(other than the asshole elitists) will have a problem with everyone else having access to jedi, as long as being a jedi is fun and feels kind of like it did in KOTOR.

    I'm all in favor of equal access, but equal access does not mean instant access or easy access. Pratically-speaking, if you want Jedi to be as powerful in KOTOR MMO as they were in the original KOTOR, then giving everyone the choice to either roll a Jedi or not roll a Jedi is like giving everyone in WoW the choice between rolling a Paladin and rolling a tree.

    Ideally, I'd like to see Jedi as an unlockable class, much the same way your character in KOTOR unlocks his Jedi powers in that game. I'd like to see multiple paths to being a Jedi, an element of randomness to where these "unlocking" quests are located so that one player may find the quest on Nar Shadaa while another finds it on Hoth, and an element of permadeth for Jedi-characters to keep the population low.


    Yea, I'd like it if you started off as a "normal" smuggler or fighter or whatever, then after a certain questline or level you could start selecting force skills when you train up. Or you could skip the force quest and pick one that makes you smuggler++ or fighter++ or something.

    Scooter on
  • WrenWren regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    man whatever I want to use a vibro-blade and laser pistol and fly around in my spaceship

    Wren on
    tf2sig.jpg
    TF2 - Wren BF3: Wren-fu
  • SammyFSammyF regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Scooter wrote: »
    SammyF wrote: »
    Septus wrote: »
    They're special, because they use the force and they have lightsabers. I don't think people(other than the asshole elitists) will have a problem with everyone else having access to jedi, as long as being a jedi is fun and feels kind of like it did in KOTOR.

    I'm all in favor of equal access, but equal access does not mean instant access or easy access. Pratically-speaking, if you want Jedi to be as powerful in KOTOR MMO as they were in the original KOTOR, then giving everyone the choice to either roll a Jedi or not roll a Jedi is like giving everyone in WoW the choice between rolling a Paladin and rolling a tree.

    Ideally, I'd like to see Jedi as an unlockable class, much the same way your character in KOTOR unlocks his Jedi powers in that game. I'd like to see multiple paths to being a Jedi, an element of randomness to where these "unlocking" quests are located so that one player may find the quest on Nar Shadaa while another finds it on Hoth, and an element of permadeth for Jedi-characters to keep the population low.


    Yea, I'd like it if you started off as a "normal" smuggler or fighter or whatever, then after a certain questline or level you could start selecting force skills when you train up. Or you could skip the force quest and pick one that makes you smuggler++ or fighter++ or something.

    My brother and I spent our entire time in SWG hunting for the quest that would unlike the Jedi skill sets for us. It seems like such a great idea that I still can't believe it wasn't actually true.

    By the way, if you want to hear my REALLY cruel suggestion for keeping the pop caps low, I'd have a maximum number of Jedi on any server at any time, so that if you wanted to have the opportunity to unlock a new Jedi character, you had to kill off some Jedi characters first. It lends a certain element of "highlander" to being a Jedi in that you're pretty much constantly in danger of being hunted to extinction. I wouldn't necessarily do this for KOTOR but I think it would have fitted in SWG quite nicely.

    SammyF on
  • trevelliantrevellian regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Wren wrote: »
    man whatever I want to use a vibro-blade and laser pistol and fly around in my spaceship

    I know that my greatest wish, that a JTL element of twitch space combat, is almost certainly *not* going to make it into the RPG, so I will work at being the best crafter I can be (if they decide to have any worthwhile crafting) and stick it to all the jedi fanbois by fleecing them for as much money as possible.

    trevellian on
    McGough_EA.png
  • widowsonwidowson regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Hembot wrote: »
    If it's like Kotor are there going to be six jedi classes? That doesn't help the jedi swarm problem either.

    Also there could be a lot of PvE detractors for having to many of one class. While PvP would be best-off balanced, a jedi can't shield himself from everything with his lightsaber. And they still get hit when to many people are shooting at them at once. Basically I could see them solving the jedi problem with a lot of PvE balance. No one wants to be sitting in LFG and solo play all the time in an MMO, especially if they end up looking like a carbon copy of everyone else.

    Jedi also lack gear. Sure you can make some robe and lightsaber variety but I don't see as much customization with their gear as with their abilities. I don't see them having a crafting profession either...unless it is seweing and making lahzor swardz. Economy may be one of the things that causes people to go other routes.


    The irony here is you identified the solution to the problem you mentioned.

    With 6 different routes to go as a force-user, you could potentially make so many force options and skills to use that you could unlock it would give enough variety to make force users interesting by making it about The Force. not "teh l3wt".

    Also, IMHO, a new MMO *has* to get away from the "grind to get l3wt to be able to grind and get better l3wt" method that WoW has down to a "T". Like EvE has The Great War, WAR has their own version of war, ect. new MMOs have to offer something different.

    I really think the Planetside model isn't that bad. Why not make the MMO about a big Jedi-Sith war?

    Anyhow, I don't think it's too hard to balence Jedi. They're close-combat monsters and ok at medium range (saber throw, force push, force lightning) but are ass at long range and don't have gear like you said.

    A good mandalorian character, for instance, would know that freeze 'nades and flamethrowers are good vrs jedi.

    To quote HK-47: "Recitation: First, weapon selection is critical. If I see one more idiot attacking a Jedi with a blaster pistol, then I'll kill them myself."

    Speaking of which wookie, droid, freebooter (Han solo types), and mandalorian chars would rock.

    widowson on
    -I owe nothing to Women's Lib.

    Margaret Thatcher
  • eelektrikeelektrik regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    I still want to see it follow the D20 rules, with the latest edition only having 5 classes. Jedi, Noble, Scoundrel, Scout, and Soldier, with 3 talent trees each, prestige classes(With their own talent trees as well), and multiclassing to further define your character from others.

    eelektrik on
    steam_sig.png
  • OremLKOremLK regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Here's the thing. I love BioWare. They're my favorite developer and have developed some of my favorite games, ever.

    But I don't think this game is going to be that great. BioWare is good at creating single-player RPGs, and gameplay has never been their strongest suit--they've always been best at story, characterization, and creating the illusion of roleplaying through NPC interaction. Sure, KotOR and the like play fine, but I wouldn't have been interested in them with just the gameplay to drive me.

    Problem is, the MMO genre doesn't leave much room for story, and any roleplaying is up to the players. What really drives MMO games, beyond the social aspect (which all MMOs share), is the gameplay, especially character advancement. And I'm not sold on BioWare being the best developer for handling that.

    Maybe if they find a way to truly make this game about the setting and about roleplaying in the Star Wars universe. Then I might be sold. But wow, that's going to be really, really difficult given the typical MMO audience.

    OremLK on
  • YoshuaYoshua regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    DevilGuy wrote: »
    Yoshua wrote: »
    DevilGuy wrote: »
    I'm not all that concerned with everyone playing a Jedi, hell I'd like to play one myself, but I bet when everyone sees all the saber wielders running around they'll all start rolling bounty hunters to get easy kills, then everyone will roll whatever kills bounty hunter's easy.

    The trick to keeping the Jedi population in check while not limiting options is to set up a cycle of FotM classes and use that to up other class type populations, a lot of people will stay with those FotM classes because they like the playstyle.

    Another thing that people aren't taking into account with everyone rolling Jedi is that your character in an MMO isn't supposed to be just another joe schmoe, they're supposed to be special, that one in a thousand that gets to be a Han solo or Jango Fett or yes, a Jedi, a good way to deal with it would be to give the game a profusion of NPC's and gathering spots for different kinds of players.

    FoTM classes just show a weakness in the game's basic mechanics and design. If the time is taken to create or adapt a real game system to the code, then balance issues should be small and FoTM classes should not really exist.

    You're not actually suggesting they deliberatly create a shoddy game system just so they have to constantly change classes to create FoTM's are you? Because that is a really shitty way to create variety.

    Anyways that shit all sounds like what was tried in SWG, and that turned out oh so well.

    not necessarily if you have the classes properly balanced from the start you can tweak it to give people incentive to go in one direction or the other, then all you have to do is set it back to your original balanced state and act like it's being progressively patched rather than regressively patched, in a rock paper sisors model it wouldn't be that hard to do.

    and honestly, balance? you're kidding yourself, name one game that has delineated classes that everyone considers to be balanced. No matter what you do you always end up with half the community asking for buffs they don't need because they think other PC's should go down as easily as NPC's.

    How are you going to say one thing in the first paragraph then contradict it right away in the second?

    If classes are properly balanced, they don't need tweaking period. That is where most MMO's get into trouble in the first place, trying to fix shit that aint broke.

    Paper, rock, scissors is a shitty model for class design. Ideally it should come down to skill and tactics to win a fight, not class selection.

    Balance is always in contention in a competitive game. But changing shit up just to funnel people into a less popular class is not a good answer, doing this constantly will frustrate players and pretty much guuarantee players will jump ship for the next shiney thing to come along. That's not good for anyone (after all, what is an MMO with a low playerbase? Pretty boring).

    Yoshua on
  • SammyFSammyF regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    We probably ought to acknowledge right now that this game is actually going to have a huge player base barring anything like the NGE debacle. The first two words are "Star" and "Wars." It doesn't even have to be as good as SWG was when it launched, it just has to be better than it is right now, and millions of people will end up playing it.

    SammyF on
  • ScroffusScroffus regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    I want to be a jedi droid who uses blaster pistols?
    Do jedis use blaster pistols?
    Infact... can droids even be jedis?

    Scroffus on
  • SammyFSammyF regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Nope; no midichlorians.

    (Just in case it's not clear, I only use the retarded aspects of post-1983 canon ironically).

    SammyF on
  • korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    edited July 2008
    OremLK wrote: »
    Here's the thing. I love BioWare. They're my favorite developer and have developed some of my favorite games, ever.

    But I don't think this game is going to be that great. BioWare is good at creating single-player RPGs, and gameplay has never been their strongest suit--they've always been best at story, characterization, and creating the illusion of roleplaying through NPC interaction. Sure, KotOR and the like play fine, but I wouldn't have been interested in them with just the gameplay to drive me.

    Problem is, the MMO genre doesn't leave much room for story, and any roleplaying is up to the players. What really drives MMO games, beyond the social aspect (which all MMOs share), is the gameplay, especially character advancement. And I'm not sold on BioWare being the best developer for handling that.

    Maybe if they find a way to truly make this game about the setting and about roleplaying in the Star Wars universe. Then I might be sold. But wow, that's going to be really, really difficult given the typical MMO audience.

    Story can (and has) been done quite well in some MMOs. Love the game or hate the game, heavy use of cutsceneing in FFXI and fairly solid writing really helped give each expansion its own pretty engaging storyline. It really doesn't take much, just... you know... some effort. Unless I'm totally off-base, LOTRO also did alright with a continuous storyline. I can even see how you could fit short spurts of branching dialogue which changes mission goals for individual people in a small instance while still allowing those people to do whatever they need to do there together.

    korodullin on
    ZvOMJnu.png
    - The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
  • ScooterScooter regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Scroffus wrote: »
    I want to be a jedi droid who uses blaster pistols?
    Do jedis use blaster pistols?
    Infact... can droids even be jedis?

    While General Grevious was just a cyborg, he did show that robotics can keep up with a Jedi, or multiple Jedi, in a lightsaber fight.


    Up until one remembers that he's got no defense from them using Force Crush on him anyways.

    Scooter on
  • YoshuaYoshua regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    korodullin wrote: »
    OremLK wrote: »
    Here's the thing. I love BioWare. They're my favorite developer and have developed some of my favorite games, ever.

    But I don't think this game is going to be that great. BioWare is good at creating single-player RPGs, and gameplay has never been their strongest suit--they've always been best at story, characterization, and creating the illusion of roleplaying through NPC interaction. Sure, KotOR and the like play fine, but I wouldn't have been interested in them with just the gameplay to drive me.

    Problem is, the MMO genre doesn't leave much room for story, and any roleplaying is up to the players. What really drives MMO games, beyond the social aspect (which all MMOs share), is the gameplay, especially character advancement. And I'm not sold on BioWare being the best developer for handling that.

    Maybe if they find a way to truly make this game about the setting and about roleplaying in the Star Wars universe. Then I might be sold. But wow, that's going to be really, really difficult given the typical MMO audience.

    Story can (and has) been done quite well in some MMOs. Love the game or hate the game, heavy use of cutsceneing in FFXI and fairly solid writing really helped give each expansion its own pretty engaging storyline. It really doesn't take much, just... you know... some effort. Unless I'm totally off-base, LOTRO also did alright with a continuous storyline. I can even see how you could fit short spurts of branching dialogue which changes mission goals for individual people in a small instance while still allowing those people to do whatever they need to do there together.

    Given the encyclophedic volumes and volumes of unpublished backstory on Middle Earth that Tolkien wrote, it would be criminal if a MMO could not maintain good story for a long, long time. Then again, Peter Jackson stll managed to cock things up.

    Yoshua on
  • 815165815165 regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Yoshua wrote: »
    Given the encyclophedic volumes and volumes of unpublished backstory on Middle Earth that Tolkien wrote, it would be criminal if a MMO could not maintain good story for a long, long time. Then again, Peter Jackson stll managed to cock things up.
    Off-topic but I don't care: That's actually pretty harsh on Peter Jackson considering he turned some pretty boring books into some pretty interesting movies, and made me care far more about the characters than the books ever did. Even if he wasn't totally accurate to the books (understatement, I know) it still made for some good, compelling storytelling.

    815165 on
  • OremLKOremLK regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    I don't see how any MMO can effectively tell stories without the assistance of the players (and possibly real-time game masters) crafting the stories themselves. Any personal story you try to tell fails because the suspension of disbelief is constantly broken.

    You could have some grand sweeping story going on, like how there's this whole deal in WoW:BC about Illidan and the Outlands, but it never becomes personal on any level. You can't make the player feel like a hero because there are thousands of other people who have done, are doing, or will do the same thing. You can't make people care about NPC characters when they're constantly interacting with real, non-scripted people, most of whom don't give a fuck about getting into the world or the storyline and laugh at the idea of "roleplaying".

    Something I experienced in Neverwinter Nights was a small "persistent world" module with 50 or so real roleplayers and a few DMs to go with them guiding the whole thing. That worked really well because we were basically telling our own stories, our characters interacting with each other and the DMs assisting to provide real storylines and events that changed based on what we did.

    But I don't see something like that ever being feasible in an MMO game.

    OremLK on
  • ScooterScooter regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Yoshua wrote: »
    korodullin wrote: »
    OremLK wrote: »
    Here's the thing. I love BioWare. They're my favorite developer and have developed some of my favorite games, ever.

    But I don't think this game is going to be that great. BioWare is good at creating single-player RPGs, and gameplay has never been their strongest suit--they've always been best at story, characterization, and creating the illusion of roleplaying through NPC interaction. Sure, KotOR and the like play fine, but I wouldn't have been interested in them with just the gameplay to drive me.

    Problem is, the MMO genre doesn't leave much room for story, and any roleplaying is up to the players. What really drives MMO games, beyond the social aspect (which all MMOs share), is the gameplay, especially character advancement. And I'm not sold on BioWare being the best developer for handling that.

    Maybe if they find a way to truly make this game about the setting and about roleplaying in the Star Wars universe. Then I might be sold. But wow, that's going to be really, really difficult given the typical MMO audience.

    Story can (and has) been done quite well in some MMOs. Love the game or hate the game, heavy use of cutsceneing in FFXI and fairly solid writing really helped give each expansion its own pretty engaging storyline. It really doesn't take much, just... you know... some effort. Unless I'm totally off-base, LOTRO also did alright with a continuous storyline. I can even see how you could fit short spurts of branching dialogue which changes mission goals for individual people in a small instance while still allowing those people to do whatever they need to do there together.

    Given the encyclophedic volumes and volumes of unpublished backstory on Middle Earth that Tolkien wrote, it would be criminal if a MMO could not maintain good story for a long, long time. Then again, Peter Jackson stll managed to cock things up.

    Er, are you under the impression that the LOTR movie people had anything to do with LOTRO the MMO? Cause, no.

    Or if you're just saying he cocked up the movies, well, you have the right to your completely wrong opinion.

    Scooter on
  • korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    edited July 2008
    OremLK wrote: »
    But I don't see something like that ever being feasible in an MMO game.

    I still think FFXI's system of expansion-wide, set-in-stone storylines that you can participate in, where all the major storytelling segments are cutscenes that focus on you, while the dirty work is done cooperatively is a good compromise between the scattershot plot in WoW and the intimate, hand-crafted RP experiences done by a DM in a MUD or NWN. It's all about compromises. You have the story something you elect to participate in, and it plays out like a drop-in cooperative offline RPG, and then you have the rest of the game as the big sandbox you can mess around in. I always think there's room for both in just about any style of MMO.

    I mean, really. FFXI did it right. LOTRO did it mostly right. AoC? I dunno. Nobody else has even really tried.

    korodullin on
    ZvOMJnu.png
    - The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
  • SammyFSammyF regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    korodullin wrote: »
    OremLK wrote: »
    But I don't see something like that ever being feasible in an MMO game.

    I still think FFXI's system of expansion-wide, set-in-stone storylines that you can participate in, where all the major storytelling segments are cutscenes that focus on you, while the dirty work is done cooperatively is a good compromise between the scattershot plot in WoW and the intimate, hand-crafted RP experiences done by a DM in a MUD or NWN. It's all about compromises. You have the story something you elect to participate in, and it plays out like a drop-in cooperative offline RPG, and then you have the rest of the game as the big sandbox you can mess around in. I always think there's room for both in just about any style of MMO.

    I think I'm falling currently on the side of "create a setting and let the narrative emerge from gameplay." I'm kind of like Tycho in that I'm a story person--if I'm playing a game that doesn't have a story, I'll make one up. And some of the most compelling, enjoyable stories I've enjoyed while playing an RPG were the ones that I got to make as I went along--Sid Meier's Pirates! was great for this back in the 1980s. There wasn't an overarching narrative, but the setting was broad and open-ended enough and there was enough content in it that I could find a way to do what I wanted.

    At issue, of course, is that we've replaced the MOB killing grind of Everquest with the Quest-completing grind of WoW, so we've moved away pretty significantly from the sort of open-world, make-your-own-narrative do-what-you-want kind of games we used to play. We feel like we need quests now, which requires a story, which in an MMO is static and externally-supplied and not-at-all special or unique. I don't know how Bioware is going to approach it--I almost hope they go light-handed on the questing and instead focus on giving the players enough role-playing tools to create their own stories and narratives, but I suppose we'll see.

    SammyF on
  • YoshuaYoshua regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Scooter wrote: »
    Yoshua wrote: »
    korodullin wrote: »
    OremLK wrote: »
    Here's the thing. I love BioWare. They're my favorite developer and have developed some of my favorite games, ever.

    But I don't think this game is going to be that great. BioWare is good at creating single-player RPGs, and gameplay has never been their strongest suit--they've always been best at story, characterization, and creating the illusion of roleplaying through NPC interaction. Sure, KotOR and the like play fine, but I wouldn't have been interested in them with just the gameplay to drive me.

    Problem is, the MMO genre doesn't leave much room for story, and any roleplaying is up to the players. What really drives MMO games, beyond the social aspect (which all MMOs share), is the gameplay, especially character advancement. And I'm not sold on BioWare being the best developer for handling that.

    Maybe if they find a way to truly make this game about the setting and about roleplaying in the Star Wars universe. Then I might be sold. But wow, that's going to be really, really difficult given the typical MMO audience.

    Story can (and has) been done quite well in some MMOs. Love the game or hate the game, heavy use of cutsceneing in FFXI and fairly solid writing really helped give each expansion its own pretty engaging storyline. It really doesn't take much, just... you know... some effort. Unless I'm totally off-base, LOTRO also did alright with a continuous storyline. I can even see how you could fit short spurts of branching dialogue which changes mission goals for individual people in a small instance while still allowing those people to do whatever they need to do there together.

    Given the encyclophedic volumes and volumes of unpublished backstory on Middle Earth that Tolkien wrote, it would be criminal if a MMO could not maintain good story for a long, long time. Then again, Peter Jackson stll managed to cock things up.

    Er, are you under the impression that the LOTR movie people had anything to do with LOTRO the MMO? Cause, no.

    Or if you're just saying he cocked up the movies, well, you have the right to your completely wrong opinion.

    No, I know the LOTR movie guys had nothing to do with the MMO. I was saying Peter Jackson fucked up the movies, and I will stand by that assertion till the end of days. You're free to feel I am wrong, but apparently you never had any love for the series in the first place so your opinion does not rate highly.

    Yoshua on
  • korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    edited July 2008
    SammyF wrote: »
    korodullin wrote: »
    OremLK wrote: »
    But I don't see something like that ever being feasible in an MMO game.

    I still think FFXI's system of expansion-wide, set-in-stone storylines that you can participate in, where all the major storytelling segments are cutscenes that focus on you, while the dirty work is done cooperatively is a good compromise between the scattershot plot in WoW and the intimate, hand-crafted RP experiences done by a DM in a MUD or NWN. It's all about compromises. You have the story something you elect to participate in, and it plays out like a drop-in cooperative offline RPG, and then you have the rest of the game as the big sandbox you can mess around in. I always think there's room for both in just about any style of MMO.

    I think I'm falling currently on the side of "create a setting and let the narrative emerge from gameplay." I'm kind of like Tycho in that I'm a story person--if I'm playing a game that doesn't have a story, I'll make one up. And some of the most compelling, enjoyable stories I've enjoyed while playing an RPG were the ones that I got to make as I went along--Sid Meier's Pirates! was great for this back in the 1980s. There wasn't an overarching narrative, but the setting was broad and open-ended enough and there was enough content in it that I could find a way to do what I wanted.
    While I, as someone who grew up on Pirates! and Daggerfall and Morrowind and Ultima Online, am generally in agreement with you, I really don't see why, with our current technology, we can't have both the heavy story and the emergent sandbox gameplay. I think there's room for both, and with smart devs and a creative writing team (which I know Bioware has both of), I believe it's something that's not out of the realm of achievement. The key here is all about effort. Well, and money too; EA has the money, and if they're serious about being competitive in the MMO space again, they should give Bioware the time and the money needed to make Lucasarts ashamed that they ever went to SOE for SWG.
    Yoshua wrote: »
    No, I know the LOTR movie guys had nothing to do with the MMO. I was saying Peter Jackson fucked up the movies, and I will stand by that assertion till the end of days. You're free to feel I am wrong, but apparently you never had any love for the series in the first place so your opinion does not rate highly.
    I used to be, as a long-time reader of Tolkien, rabidly against the LOTR films ever since I saw The Two Towers for the first time. I mean, reading and practically studying Tolkien got me interested in books, period. However, I've grown up enough since I first saw The Two Towers in 2002 that I can enjoy it own its own merits, and divorce the movies from the literature. Yeah, they're pretty radically different in places, but I still think they're solid adaptations of a series of books that are pretty much un-adapatable to film outside of the possibility of a 30-hour miniseries. The existence of the movies hasn't erased my old tattered second edition volumes that my grandmother handed down to me.

    korodullin on
    ZvOMJnu.png
    - The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
  • SammyFSammyF regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    korodullin wrote: »
    While I, as someone who grew up on Pirates! and Daggerfall and Morrowind and Ultima Online, am generally in agreement with you, I really don't see why, with our current technology, we can't have both the heavy story and the emergent sandbox gameplay. I think there's room for both, and with smart devs and a creative writing team (which I know Bioware has both of), I believe it's something that's not out of the realm of achievement. The key here is all about effort. Well, and money too; EA has the money, and if they're serious about being competitive in the MMO space again, they should give Bioware the time and the money needed to make Lucasarts ashamed that they ever went to SOE for SWG.

    A lot of singleplayer games have demonstrated you can do both, to great effect. Witness Grand Theft Auto IV and other similar games. MMOs seem to be trickier, though, and the tropes of the genre will necessarily have to change in order to make both sand-boxing and main-questing a viable proposition. As long as questing remains the fundamental engine for advancing your character (in terms of level, in terms of acquiring the best possible loot for your current tier, and in terms of funneling your character to new geographic locations suitable to your level) then subscribing to the same-old story arc is broadly unavoidable. But the again, as much as players nowadays seem to want to revolt against the quest-grind for XP, I doubt anyone in a hurry to return to the mob-killing grind, either.

    Which brings me to the point wherein I praise the general concept behind the Development of Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning. I think this might be the wave of the future because you get XP for *everything.* Like PvE questing? You can have XP for that. Don't like being bothered by quest text and rather just wander around killing things? You can XP for that. Hate PvE and like PvP instead? You can have XP for that, too. Only like PvP in instanced battlefields? They have those, and you can get XP for completing them. Hate instanced battlefields, but also hate the random pointlessness of open-world PvP? They've got capturable keeps that can not only be owned by your realm but by your specific guild, and you can have XP for doing that, too. And the entire enterprise feeds points into an RvR meta-conflict to determine victory, which opens up new PvP and PvE opportunities. So there's a meta-conflict that funnels you through an overarching narrative, but that overarching narrative isn't character-specific, so within it you can play the sort of game you want with the sort of narrative arc determined by your own pursuits and goals.
    I used to be, as a long-time reader of Tolkien, rabidly against the LOTR films ever since I saw The Two Towers for the first time. I mean, reading and practically studying Tolkien got me interested in books, period. However, I've grown up enough since I first saw The Two Towers in 2002 that I can enjoy it own its own merits, and divorce the movies from the literature. Yeah, they're pretty radically different in places, but I still think they're solid adaptations of a series of books that are pretty much un-adapatable to film outside of the possibility of a 30-hour miniseries. The existence of the movies hasn't erased my old tattered second edition volumes that my grandmother handed down to me.

    I'm going to throw this out there: Return of the King was a poorly-done movie, purely from the standpoint of a film critic. The last twenty minutes or so in particular, where they go through about five scenes to tie up the loose ends of the narrative and for some inexplicable fucking reason Jackson decided to cut the scenes together with fades rather than transitional establishing shots. The audience I saw the movie with stood up to leave everytime the scene faded to black, expecting the credits to roll, and then sat down again with a frustrated sigh when a new scene faded back in. It's perplexing because cinematically, the other movies were done extraordinarily well. I don't know why Jackson got so fucking lazy with Return of the King.

    SammyF on
  • korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Yeah, I think I can concede that Return of the King is the poorest movie of the trilogy, but I generally attribute that to it being at the tail end of an enormous marathon shoot, and Jackson phoned it in a bit.

    korodullin on
    ZvOMJnu.png
    - The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    SammyF wrote: »
    I'm going to throw this out there: Return of the King was a poorly-done movie, purely from the standpoint of a film critic. The last twenty minutes or so in particular, where they go through about five scenes to tie up the loose ends of the narrative and for some inexplicable fucking reason Jackson decided to cut the scenes together with fades rather than transitional establishing shots. The audience I saw the movie with stood up to leave everytime the scene faded to black, expecting the credits to roll, and then sat down again with a frustrated sigh when a new scene faded back in. It's perplexing because cinematically, the other movies were done extraordinarily well. I don't know why Jackson got so fucking lazy with Return of the King.

    I'm glad someone holds my opinion.

    I love the Fellowship of the Ring movie. Its a near perfect adaptation of the book, given that some things had to be changed to work on film. Two Towers was rather enjoyable for the most part. But Return of the King? Bad movie.

    DisruptorX2 on
    1208768734831.jpg
  • 815165815165 regular Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    I know it's not canon but I'd have been pretty pleased if Frodo and Sam died on that mountain.

    815165 on
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