Don't forget the other form of racism, the fact that they don't get to use the n-word without offending people, while black people can.
The ones that want to know why they can't use that word. You say it's racism, but how do you know? Did they hang a sign outside their business saying "No N******"? Did they out right say they hated black people? Maybe they're just especially mean.
Because otherwise by your own standards you don't actually know.
I was pointing out that when white people complain about anti-white racism, one of the more frequent complaints I hear about is how they aren't "allowed" to use the n-word and crying double standard. Which was pretty obvious in regards to what I was replying to.
Now, if you're white, you can get away with using the n-word in a comedy routine if you're Chevy Chase. Not so much if you're Michael Richards. Hopefully, the distinction will be obvious.
I think racism is, by now, an obsolete term. Between the attention whores and the bigots and the perpetual stereotypes, it's turned into something more akin to a cultural cluster-fuck. Hey, ever notice the only word banned on these forums is the n-word? Holy taboo, Batman!
On a more serious note, I hear black people can't swim and the Japanese are Cylons.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
A number of years ago a cab took me from Maryland to a destination in Virginia. Cab drivers often like to talk. This cab driver without any prompting from me was telling me which areas in the Washington, DC area are safe to work in, and which are not. Every neighborhood he listed as dangerous is black. Every neighborhood he listed that is safe is white. The cab driver was black.
Correlation sure does does equal causation.
By the way, blacks have not been lynched for decades.
sure the system treated you as sub-human for hundreds of years, and people that voted against civil rights are still in power, but for the last decade or so it's fairly unlikely you'll be randomly killed by mobs of angry whites!
On March 30, 1908, Green Cottenham was arrested by the sheriff of Shelby County, Alabama, and charged with “vagrancy.â€... Cottenham’s offense was blackness.... [After a brief trial] Cottenham... was sold. Under a standing arrangement between the county and a vast subsidiary of the industrial titan of the North — U.S. Steel Corporation — the sheriff turned the young man over to the company for the duration of his sentence.... he was chained inside a long wooden barrack at night and required to spend nearly every waking hour digging and loading coal. His required daily “task†was to remove eight tons of coal from the mine. Cottenham was subject to the whip for failure to dig the requisite amount, at risk of physical torture for disobedience, and vulnerable to the sexual predations of other miners.... Forty-five years after President Abraham Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation freeing American slaves, Green Cottenham and more than a thousand other black men toiled under the lash at Slope 12.
...
Instead of thousands of true thieves and thugs drawn into the system over decades, the records demonstrate the capture and imprisonment of thousands of random indigent citizens, almost always under the thinnest chimera of probable cause or judicial process. The total number of workers caught in this net had to have totaled more than a hundred thousand and perhaps more than twice that figure. Instead of evidence showing black crime waves, the original records of county jails indicated thousands of arrests for inconsequential charges or for violations of laws specifically written to intimidate blacks—changing employers without permission, vagrancy, riding freight cars without a ticket, engaging in sexual activity— or loud talk—with white women. Repeatedly, the timing and scale of surges in arrests appeared more attuned to rises and dips in the need for cheap labor than any demonstrable acts of crime. Hundreds of forced labor camps came to exist, scattered throughout the South—operated by state and county governments, large corporations, small-time entrepreneurs, and provincial farmers. These bulging slave centers became a primary weapon of suppression of black aspirations....
By 1900, the South’s judicial system had been wholly reconfigured to make one of its primary purposes the coercion of African Americans to comply with the social customs and labor demands of whites. It was not coincidental that 1901 also marked the final full disenfranchisement of nearly all blacks throughout the South. Sentences were handed down by provincial judges, local mayors, and justices of the peace—often men in the employ of the white business owners who relied on the forced labor produced by the judgments. Dockets and trial records were inconsistently maintained. Attorneys were rarely involved on the side of blacks. Revenues from the neo-slavery poured the equivalent of tens of millions of dollars into the treasuries of Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia, Florida, Texas, North Carolina, and South Carolina — where more than 75 percent of the black population in the United States then lived....
That the arc of Green Cottenham’s life led from a birth in the heady afterglow of emancipation to his degradation at Slope No. 12 in 1908 was testament to the pall progressing over American black life. But his voice, and that of millions of others, is almost entirely absent from the vast record of the era. Unlike the victims of the Jewish Holocaust, who were on the whole literate, comparatively wealthy, and positioned to record for history the horror that enveloped them, Cottenham and his peers had virtually no capacity to preserve their memories or document their destruction. The black population of the United States in 1900 was in the main destitute and illiterate. For the vast majority, no recordings, writings, images, or physical descriptions survive. There is no chronicle of girlfriends, hopes, or favorite songs of the dead in a Pratt Mines burial field. The entombed there are utterly mute, the fact of their existence as fragile as a scent in wind.
See also sundown towns, and much much more.
Slavery didn't die we still benefit from slave labor right now.
I think racism is, by now, an obsolete term. Between the attention whores and the bigots and the perpetual stereotypes, it's turned into something more akin to a cultural cluster-fuck. Hey, ever notice the only word banned on these forums is the n-word? Holy taboo, Batman!
On a more serious note, I hear black people can't swim and the Japanese are Cylons.
Post B1: Maybe (even though its all overblown), but whats really tragic is how black people hate white people! They make up racism!
Post A2: In the US, whites are the majority and whites disproportionately control wealth and power. Here are a number of studies that demonstrate racism both overt and subtle by some of the most respected universities in the world.
Post B2: Nuh-uh! The report I didn't read has problems X Y AND Z and it ignores that they bring it on themselves and then want whites to fix it!
Post A3: Points X Y and Z are all addressed in the study. And when you look at poverty and regional rate in relationship to education and crime there are some trends....
Post B3: Blacks are racist so I can be too! Not that I am but any complaints they make are made up because they are racist.
Its a topic that requires civility, courage and intelligence to address fairly, and one a-hole on a thread can ruin that. There's a reason these threads can never go anywhere.
A number of years ago a cab took me from Maryland to a destination in Virginia. Cab drivers often like to talk. This cab driver without any prompting from me was telling me which areas in the Washington, DC area are safe to work in, and which are not. Every neighborhood he listed as dangerous is black. Every neighborhood he listed that is safe is white. The cab driver was black.
Correlation sure does does equal causation.
By the way, blacks have not been lynched for decades.
sure the system treated you as sub-human for hundreds of years, and people that voted against civil rights are still in power, but for the last decade or so it's fairly unlikely you'll be randomly killed by mobs of angry whites!
On March 30, 1908, Green Cottenham was arrested by the sheriff of Shelby County, Alabama, and charged with “vagrancy.â€... Cottenham’s offense was blackness.... [After a brief trial] Cottenham... was sold. Under a standing arrangement between the county and a vast subsidiary of the industrial titan of the North — U.S. Steel Corporation — the sheriff turned the young man over to the company for the duration of his sentence.... he was chained inside a long wooden barrack at night and required to spend nearly every waking hour digging and loading coal. His required daily “task†was to remove eight tons of coal from the mine. Cottenham was subject to the whip for failure to dig the requisite amount, at risk of physical torture for disobedience, and vulnerable to the sexual predations of other miners.... Forty-five years after President Abraham Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation freeing American slaves, Green Cottenham and more than a thousand other black men toiled under the lash at Slope 12.
...
Instead of thousands of true thieves and thugs drawn into the system over decades, the records demonstrate the capture and imprisonment of thousands of random indigent citizens, almost always under the thinnest chimera of probable cause or judicial process. The total number of workers caught in this net had to have totaled more than a hundred thousand and perhaps more than twice that figure. Instead of evidence showing black crime waves, the original records of county jails indicated thousands of arrests for inconsequential charges or for violations of laws specifically written to intimidate blacks—changing employers without permission, vagrancy, riding freight cars without a ticket, engaging in sexual activity— or loud talk—with white women. Repeatedly, the timing and scale of surges in arrests appeared more attuned to rises and dips in the need for cheap labor than any demonstrable acts of crime. Hundreds of forced labor camps came to exist, scattered throughout the South—operated by state and county governments, large corporations, small-time entrepreneurs, and provincial farmers. These bulging slave centers became a primary weapon of suppression of black aspirations....
By 1900, the South’s judicial system had been wholly reconfigured to make one of its primary purposes the coercion of African Americans to comply with the social customs and labor demands of whites. It was not coincidental that 1901 also marked the final full disenfranchisement of nearly all blacks throughout the South. Sentences were handed down by provincial judges, local mayors, and justices of the peace—often men in the employ of the white business owners who relied on the forced labor produced by the judgments. Dockets and trial records were inconsistently maintained. Attorneys were rarely involved on the side of blacks. Revenues from the neo-slavery poured the equivalent of tens of millions of dollars into the treasuries of Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia, Florida, Texas, North Carolina, and South Carolina — where more than 75 percent of the black population in the United States then lived....
That the arc of Green Cottenham’s life led from a birth in the heady afterglow of emancipation to his degradation at Slope No. 12 in 1908 was testament to the pall progressing over American black life. But his voice, and that of millions of others, is almost entirely absent from the vast record of the era. Unlike the victims of the Jewish Holocaust, who were on the whole literate, comparatively wealthy, and positioned to record for history the horror that enveloped them, Cottenham and his peers had virtually no capacity to preserve their memories or document their destruction. The black population of the United States in 1900 was in the main destitute and illiterate. For the vast majority, no recordings, writings, images, or physical descriptions survive. There is no chronicle of girlfriends, hopes, or favorite songs of the dead in a Pratt Mines burial field. The entombed there are utterly mute, the fact of their existence as fragile as a scent in wind.
See also sundown towns, and much much more.
Slavery didn't die we still benefit from slave labor right now.
Google Nestle and slaves
An interesting article does come up as a result, but I don't know if blaming nestle is the answer. If nestle didn't buy it some other company based in a nation like china would buy the cocoa instead. It is not like nestle owns the plantations. And anyways, the problems in Africa wouldn't magically be solved if everyone in the world had the same skin colour. If they were white they wouldn't be any less poor, and starving.
I think the cop in the article from the OP is a disgusting blot of humanity. Why didn't anyone stop him if they new he enjoyed tazering people needlessly? We should send him on the next flight to ivory coast to work on a cocoa plantation. England had a good thing going sending criminals to Australia, and hey, that country turned out alright. Lets just pick somewhere and deport the worst criminals there. There have got to be some islands left in the pacific. I'd suggest making it a reality TV show but its probably been done already.
This didn't really answer the question. You give some examples of personal experiences but didn't really answer if you believe that black people just complain to get a free ride. I think what your trying to say is that black people can only blame themselves or something? If you believe that, I'd like to know exactly what perks the average black american enjoys simply from being black.
Affirmative action programs and race quotas.
In Chicago for the 2002-2003 school year the annual education finance price put on an elementary schoolchild ranged from $20,107 in the affluent, white North Shore suburb of Lake Forest to $6,292 in the impoverished and 83% black and 11% Latino suburb of Maywood.
There wouldn't be a reasonable argument for affirmative action if there was some equality in the education. As it is, affirmative action is like a sticking plaster on a gaping chest wound.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
An interesting article does come up as a result, but I don't know if blaming nestle is the answer. If nestle didn't buy it some other company based in a nation like china would buy the cocoa instead. It is not like nestle owns the plantations. And anyways, the problems in Africa wouldn't magically be solved if everyone in the world had the same skin colour. If they were white they wouldn't be any less poor, and starving.
I'm not sure what that has to do with what I posted?
Does slavery still exist? Yes.
Do we benefit from it? Yes.
Yeah if we were all one color people would still find a way to be bigoted but we're not so the THAT point is moot as well.
I think conversations about race would be much more productive if everyone on both sides made a greater effort to distinguish between race/racism and culture/cultural discrimination. They often overlap, but they are different things and the one is not as bad as the other.
Of course, part of the problem is that our collective labels for the cultures being discussed are often black and white. Not only does this labeling oversimplify the multifaceted array of cultures held by people with black and white skin, it also makes it easier to lose sight just how much these cultures have intermingled with each other. See, for example, rock music. I also think it's important to accept that certain sub-cultures that are often associated with race should be open to to criticism.
And—this might be a stretch—I think people should distinguish racism from what someone does when they assume someone with black skin lives in the ghetto. I think racism, as the word has classically been understood, refers to a belief that skin color is an actual indicator of genetic inferiority, that, because someone has dark skin, they are necessarily less intelligent or moral than people with light skin. I think someone with this belief is expressing a very different sort of bigotry than someone who makes a false assumption about a black person's culture and background based only on his skin color.
In Chicago for the 2002-2003 school year the annual education finance price put on an elementary schoolchild ranged from $20,107 in the affluent, white North Shore suburb of Lake Forest to $6,292 in the impoverished and 83% black and 11% Latino suburb of Maywood.
There wouldn't be a reasonable argument for affirmative action if there was some equality in the education. As it is, affirmative action is like a sticking plaster on a gaping chest wound.
This is just another arc of the same circular argument - those funding levels are based entirely upon property value, not race. If affirmative action programs were based on property value, or even better if they were based directly on the education finance of the applicant during his school years, then not only would they be more accurate in addressing the problem as you see it, but would also completely avoid the racism or reverse racism issue altogether.
Correlation != causation, but unfortunately this logic only seems to be applied when it benefits the victimization culture, not when it opposes it.
In Chicago for the 2002-2003 school year the annual education finance price put on an elementary schoolchild ranged from $20,107 in the affluent, white North Shore suburb of Lake Forest to $6,292 in the impoverished and 83% black and 11% Latino suburb of Maywood.
There wouldn't be a reasonable argument for affirmative action if there was some equality in the education. As it is, affirmative action is like a sticking plaster on a gaping chest wound.
That's not because of some vast government conspiracy against Blacks and Latinos, though. That's because school funding comes primarily from local taxes, therefore the more economically prosperous a region is the more money goes into its schools, and vice versa. It's a silly system, and I've gone on the record more than once saying that we need to bring school funding up to at least the state level and then increase the funding across the board by at least 30%, but it's important to understand that this situation is, once again, irrelevant to the race of the inhabitants of the neighborhood.
This is just another arc of the same circular argument - those funding levels are based entirely upon property value, not race. If affirmative action programs were based on property value, or even better if they were based directly on the education finance of the applicant during his school years, then not only would they be more accurate in addressing the problem as you see it, but would also completely avoid the racism or reverse racism issue altogether.
Correlation != causation, but unfortunately this logic only seems to be applied when it benefits the victimization culture, not when it opposes it.
But ... that would be socialism!
This is why Martin Luther King Jr. was basically a socialist, and in his later days spent his time on antipoverty initiatives rather than race-based initiatives.
That's what I mean by a 'sticking plaster on a gaping chest wound', it's not a suitable solution to the problem. Sorry, perhaps I should have made that clearer.
In Chicago for the 2002-2003 school year the annual education finance price put on an elementary schoolchild ranged from $20,107 in the affluent, white North Shore suburb of Lake Forest to $6,292 in the impoverished and 83% black and 11% Latino suburb of Maywood.
There wouldn't be a reasonable argument for affirmative action if there was some equality in the education. As it is, affirmative action is like a sticking plaster on a gaping chest wound.
That's not because of some vast government conspiracy against Blacks and Latinos, though. That's because school funding comes primarily from local taxes, therefore the more economically prosperous a region is the more money goes into its schools, and vice versa. It's a silly system, and I've gone on the record more than once saying that we need to bring school funding up to at least the state level and then increase the funding across the board by at least 30%, but it's important to understand that this situation is, once again, irrelevant to the race of the inhabitants of the neighborhood.
Ever heard of blockbusting and white flight? Yeah, especially in major northern cities, race is a huge part of it.
Post B1: Maybe (even though its all overblown), but whats really tragic is how black people hate white people! They make up racism!
Post A2: In the US, whites are the majority and whites disproportionately control wealth and power. Here are a number of studies that demonstrate racism both overt and subtle by some of the most respected universities in the world.
Post B2: Nuh-uh! The report I didn't read has problems X Y AND Z and it ignores that they bring it on themselves and then want whites to fix it!
Post A3: Points X Y and Z are all addressed in the study. And when you look at poverty and regional rate in relationship to education and crime there are some trends....
Post B3: Blacks are racist so I can be too! Not that I am but any complaints they make are made up because they are racist.
Today, PantsB is my favorite forumer.
Well, second favorite, but it's hard to top MikeMan's sloppy blowjobs. That boy gobbles cock like the nookie monster.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
In Chicago for the 2002-2003 school year the annual education finance price put on an elementary schoolchild ranged from $20,107 in the affluent, white North Shore suburb of Lake Forest to $6,292 in the impoverished and 83% black and 11% Latino suburb of Maywood.
There wouldn't be a reasonable argument for affirmative action if there was some equality in the education. As it is, affirmative action is like a sticking plaster on a gaping chest wound.
That's not because of some vast government conspiracy against Blacks and Latinos, though. That's because school funding comes primarily from local taxes, therefore the more economically prosperous a region is the more money goes into its schools, and vice versa. It's a silly system, and I've gone on the record more than once saying that we need to bring school funding up to at least the state level and then increase the funding across the board by at least 30%, but it's important to understand that this situation is, once again, irrelevant to the race of the inhabitants of the neighborhood.
Ever heard of blockbusting and white flight? Yeah, especially in major northern cities, race is a huge part of it.
OK, the reason these neighborhoods are primarily minority and poor is mostly a function of racism, but I'm just saying that the reason their schools are funded less isn't because there some guy on the school board saying "We better not give these darkies the funding they need, or else they'll get out and terk our jerbs"
That's what I mean by a 'sticking plaster on a gaping chest wound', it's not a suitable solution to the problem. Sorry, perhaps I should have made that clearer.
You aren't making a point. There is plenty of data out there on property values, tax revenues, average education spending. Why ask my race? Why use a less accurate solution while also adding to race tensions? The argument that claims "it's a band-aid to fix a complicated problem" sounds just as dodgy and apologetic as "hey, some of my best friends are black!"
That's what I mean by a 'sticking plaster on a gaping chest wound', it's not a suitable solution to the problem. Sorry, perhaps I should have made that clearer.
You aren't making a point. There is plenty of data out there on property values, tax revenues, average education spending. Why ask my race? Why use a less accurate solution while also adding to race tensions? The argument that claims "it's a band-aid to fix a complicated problem" sounds just as dodgy and apologetic as "hey, some of my best friends are black!"
The point I am making is that people wouldn't try and use affirmative action as a 'solution' for racial disparity in the school system if there was more equality in school funding. I agree that there are more accurate and less divisive solutions, that was my point. Again, I'm sorry if I'm not expressing myself clearly to you.
OK, the reason these neighborhoods are primarily minority and poor is mostly a function of racism, but I'm just saying that the reason their schools are funded less isn't because there some guy on the school board saying "We better not give these darkies the funding they need, or else they'll get out and terk our jerbs"
No, there's definitely a thread of that too it as well. Here in Georgia, Fulton County is devided pretty fiercely by the rich whitey North Fulton'ers and the poor black South Fulton'ers. The Shafer Amendment in 2005 basically divided the rich area from the poor area as far as the distribution of taxes. It's still one county, and by all rights the money should be distributed equally, but it's not because of racism and ignorance, and David god damned Shafer.
The point I am making is that people wouldn't try and use affirmative action as a 'solution' for racial disparity in the school system if there was more equality in school funding. I agree that there are more accurate and less divisive solutions, that was my point. Again, I'm sorry if I'm not expressing myself clearly to you.
Understood, so here's where I'm going with it: the reason one might make it about race is because all those other criteria I proposed, despite theoretically addressing the actual problem and without pouring more salt into the racism wound, nevertheless sound a heckuva lot like redistribution of wealth or socialism. And in this country in particular, politicians lose on those issues, whereas they win on race politics.
OK, the reason these neighborhoods are primarily minority and poor is mostly a function of racism, but I'm just saying that the reason their schools are funded less isn't because there some guy on the school board saying "We better not give these darkies the funding they need, or else they'll get out and terk our jerbs"
No, there's definitely a thread of that too it as well. Here in Georgia, Fulton County is devided pretty fiercely by the rich whitey North Fulton'ers and the poor black South Fulton'ers. The Shafer Amendment in 2005 basically divided the rich area from the poor area as far as the distribution of taxes. It's still one county, and by all rights the money should be distributed equally, but it's not because of racism and ignorance, and David god damned Shafer.
And I'll point out that racism doesn't have to premeditated or deliberate to be racism. Combine an attitude that "blacks do it to themselves - if they just worked as hard as whites, they'd get out of the ghetto and do better for themselves" with an attitude that "you can't just throw money at a troubled school district and expect it to get better - so let's give the money to a school district that's been giving us high test scores for the last five years instead" and you have a paradigm that is functionally equivalent to racism.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
And I'll point out that racism doesn't have to premeditated or deliberate to be racism. Combine an attitude that "blacks do it to themselves - if they just worked as hard as whites, they'd get out of the ghetto and do better for themselves" with an attitude that "you can't just throw money at a troubled school district and expect it to get better - so let's give the money to a school district that's been giving us high test scores for the last five years instead" and you have a paradigm that is functionally equivalent to racism.
Wait, how on earth is this functionally equivalent to racism?
If you replace "blacks" with "poor people," it's functionally equivalent to the overarching conservative ideas about wealth distribution.
And I'll point out that racism doesn't have to premeditated or deliberate to be racism. Combine an attitude that "blacks do it to themselves - if they just worked as hard as whites, they'd get out of the ghetto and do better for themselves" with an attitude that "you can't just throw money at a troubled school district and expect it to get better - so let's give the money to a school district that's been giving us high test scores for the last five years instead" and you have a paradigm that is functionally equivalent to racism.
Wait, how on earth is this functionally equivalent to racism?
How is it not? It leads to the same cycle. We don't give blacks equal educational opportunities, which leads to them performing worse on tests and in the job market, which leads to the further perception that their failure to compete is due to some intrinsic personal defect, which leads to further withholding of educational opportunities. That the intrinsic personal defect is "they do it to themselves" rather than "they're genetically inferior" doesn't change the function of the vicious cycle.
And, yes, I will admit that there is a grain of truth to the attitude that "blacks do it to themselves." There's a pretty well-documented phenomenon of black youth resisting of the educational opportunities they've been given for various reasons. But you know what? When people perceive that the deck is stacked against them, that working hard will just result in failure at the hands of an unfair system, people tend to throw their hands up and say "fuck it."
As others have said, it is a complex problem without an easy answer. It usually has to be addressed at the most granular levels possible - individual communities, individual neighborhoods, individual schools, individual people. But while we can't control the actions of individual persons, we can control the actions of institutions and systems. Those are the tools we have to shape society, and we have to start by making sure that everybody gets a fair shake - even if we worry that some of them won't take advantage of it.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
OK, the reason these neighborhoods are primarily minority and poor is mostly a function of racism, but I'm just saying that the reason their schools are funded less isn't because there some guy on the school board saying "We better not give these darkies the funding they need, or else they'll get out and terk our jerbs"
No, there's definitely a thread of that too it as well. Here in Georgia, Fulton County is devided pretty fiercely by the rich whitey North Fulton'ers and the poor black South Fulton'ers. The Shafer Amendment in 2005 basically divided the rich area from the poor area as far as the distribution of taxes. It's still one county, and by all rights the money should be distributed equally, but it's not because of racism and ignorance, and David god damned Shafer.
Obviously that's bullshit, but I'm in Atlanta, too, and I think Fulton County just needs to be straight up divided in half because the halves are entirely different, not just racially. I mean, does Midtown Atlanta really need to be in the same county as Alpharetta, Roswell, Sandy Springs, etc.?
Wait, how on earth is this functionally equivalent to racism?
How is it not? It leads to the same cycle.[/quote]
Which is functionally equivalent to the poverty cycle.
That the intrinsic personal defect is "they do it to themselves" rather than "they're genetically inferior" doesn't change the function of the vicious cycle.
I don't see what nature of the cycle has to do with its proximate cause being racism.
And, yes, I will admit that there is a grain of truth to the attitude that "blacks do it to themselves." There's a pretty well-documented phenomenon of black youth resisting of the educational opportunities they've been given for various reasons. But you know what? When people perceive that the deck is stacked against them, that working hard will just result in failure at the hands of an unfair system, people tend to throw their hands up and say "fuck it."
I agree, though I think that blacks would be better served if they stopped identifying their struggle as one of white vs. black (racially or culturally) and started identifying it in terms of economics, like Martin Luther King tried to do. This is where labeling the cycle as a "racist problem" is doing more harm than good.
As others have said, it is a complex problem without an easy answer. It usually has to be addressed at the most granular levels possible - individual communities, individual neighborhoods, individual schools, individual people. But while we can't control the actions of individual persons, we can control the actions of institutions and systems. Those are the tools we have to shape society, and we have to start by making sure that everybody gets a fair shake - even if we worry that some of them won't take advantage of it.
I agree with you—I mean, I'm basically a socialist. I just don't see what this has to do with racism.
My roommate works with poor, mostly black (also some Latino and immigrant) kids. He is goofy and they like him, and apparently because of this, some of them claim that he's "not actually white." For the kids, "white" is simply a cultural identifier—it means "other," often "oppressor."
There is a problem that the deck is stacked up against these kids, and I don't doubt that many of them have experienced real, vicious racism. But I think everyone needs to re-examine this whole narrative of systemic white oppression against blacks. I don't think this narrative is true any longer in today's world, and I think the perpetuation of this narrative is perpetuating this "us-vs.-them" subculture.
My roommate works with poor, mostly black (also some Latino and immigrant) kids. He is goofy and they like him, and apparently because of this, some of them claim that he's "not actually white." For the kids, "white" is simply a cultural identifier—it means "other," often "oppressor."
This.
I really really hate this. Also the whole "White-Washed" thing which is just another word for "Successful" but treated as "Traitor." Its like calling women CEOs "dick-washed."
One of the most useful things someone could do in this world is to find a way to turn envy into inspiration.
Ok, quick history lesson: North Fulton County used to be Milton County 100 years ago. It was rural. And during the depression, tax revenues got so low that there literally was not enough revenue to run a government at all. So Fulton County (Atlanta) and all their rich city-folk annexed Milton so that they could retain basic government services.
Jump forward past civil rights, white flight, several interstates, and the takeover of Atlanta and Fulton government by race-focused black politicians. Now North Fulton is wildly affluent suburbs and Atlanta is poverty, crime and desolation. Tax revenue cascades in avalanches from North to South to fund social programs and city infrastructure, to the point where commuting in North Fulton is a disaster of stop-and-go traffic along little one-lane roads that haven't seen improvement in decades. Like in the past, this area can't get basic government services anymore (well, it's not that bad, but deliciously ironic anyway).
Discrimination in taxation and spending is rampant, where tax officials in the South are on the record blasting North Fulton residents with unfair land assessments and then literally stating "too bad, you white folk ought to pay more anyway" when it gets challenged.
While I don't agree with the idea of secession in general (because, really, couldn't I just secede as an individual and not pay taxes at all?), one must acknowledge when things are getting too out of hand. Sandy Springs finally incorporated, which isn't quite as valuable as secession, but already majorly needed improvements in basic government responsibilities are popping up all over.
My roommate works with poor, mostly black (also some Latino and immigrant) kids. He is goofy and they like him, and apparently because of this, some of them claim that he's "not actually white." For the kids, "white" is simply a cultural identifier—it means "other," often "oppressor."
This.
I really really hate this. Also the whole "White-Washed" thing which is just another word for "Successful" but treated as "Traitor." Its like calling women CEOs "dick-washed."
One of the most useful things someone could do in this world is to find a way to turn envy into inspiration.
To be fair: it's not the kids' fault, and it's getting better.
For example, they were surprised that my roommate was voting for Barack Obama. They didn't know that white people would support Barack Obama. I think that this perception that all white people are dogmatically opposed to black people is so fragile that it's basically doomed to fall apart—probably sooner rather than later, at the rate our generation is going.
My roommate works with poor, mostly black (also some Latino and immigrant) kids. He is goofy and they like him, and apparently because of this, some of them claim that he's "not actually white." For the kids, "white" is simply a cultural identifier—it means "other," often "oppressor."
This.
I really really hate this. Also the whole "White-Washed" thing which is just another word for "Successful" but treated as "Traitor." Its like calling women CEOs "dick-washed."
One of the most useful things someone could do in this world is to find a way to turn envy into inspiration.
It's not just about being successful. It's about being successful while selling who you are out - take Clarence Thomas, for example. And yes, you could find "dick-washed" women as well - Coulter and Malkin are prime examples of such.
Who are you to say who someone really "is" and deem them a sell-out?
I think the jury's in on Thomas. But here's the clue - when you start advocating policies that would fuck you yourself over based on some minor difference, then you're probably a sellout.
Who are you to say who someone really "is" and deem them a sell-out?
I think the jury's in on Thomas. But here's the clue - when you start advocating policies that would fuck you yourself over based on some minor difference, then you're probably a sellout.
I'll admit I'm not too familiar with Clarence Thomas' racial policies, but can you give some examples?
It's not just about being successful. It's about being successful while selling who you are out - take Clarence Thomas, for example. And yes, you could find "dick-washed" women as well - Coulter and Malkin are prime examples of such.
Selling out is a horribly abused term.
Coulter is a mysogynist. That doesn't make her a sellout, that makes her a hypocrite.
And in relation to economic status, that's like saying a high school senior is a sellout for going to college.
Who are you to say who someone really "is" and deem them a sell-out?
I think the jury's in on Thomas. But here's the clue - when you start advocating policies that would fuck you yourself over based on some minor difference, then you're probably a sellout.
I'll admit I'm not too familiar with Clarence Thomas' racial policies, but can you give some examples?
Seriously, just look up any case dealing with race where he was on the Court. I will give him one piece of credit - he is consistent in his cravenness.
It's not just about being successful. It's about being successful while selling who you are out - take Clarence Thomas, for example. And yes, you could find "dick-washed" women as well - Coulter and Malkin are prime examples of such.
Selling out is a horribly abused term.
Coulter is a mysogynist. That doesn't make her a sellout, that makes her a hypocrite.
And in relation to economic status, that's like saying a high school senior is a sellout for going to college.
She's a sellout in that she would willingly fuck herself (as well as other women) over for the benefit of her masters.
Who are you to say who someone really "is" and deem them a sell-out?
I think the jury's in on Thomas. But here's the clue - when you start advocating policies that would fuck you yourself over based on some minor difference, then you're probably a sellout.
I'll admit I'm not too familiar with Clarence Thomas' racial policies, but can you give some examples?
Seriously, just look up any case dealing with race where he was on the Court. I will give him one piece of credit - he is consistent in his cravenness.
I am having trouble doing this on my work computer. I'm mostly just curious how many of his so-called anti-black positions were actually your more standard Republican, anti-poor positions.
I'm a few pages late with this, but I wanted to contribute to the discussion on X-on-white prejudice. I'm mixed ethnicity, and I grew up in Southwest Texas, in a town with roughly 90% Hispanic population. I experienced racism from my peers and a few of my elders because I was "too white".
When I graduated high school, I moved up to Minnesota, where some people mistook me for being Hispanic, because now I'm "too brown" (I'm not directly Hispanic, but I'm Filipino, so...close enough? ). After a few years of Minnesota's lack of sun, I'm now nearly as white as the Norwegians here and don't experience that anymore.
My opinion on X-on-white racism vs. white-on-X racism? People are inherently tribalistic, which is why we have to build the system (i.e. government) to be resistant to abuse, because we can't trust people not to be racist. Even assuming black people were on average doing as well as white people, there's still going to be some asshole trying to deny them jobs or education or tasering them to death.
This may seem trite but the kind of racism that really irks me is people like Angel who assume all black people must have a certain political leaning or else they are a sell-out.
Posts
I was pointing out that when white people complain about anti-white racism, one of the more frequent complaints I hear about is how they aren't "allowed" to use the n-word and crying double standard. Which was pretty obvious in regards to what I was replying to.
Now, if you're white, you can get away with using the n-word in a comedy routine if you're Chevy Chase. Not so much if you're Michael Richards. Hopefully, the distinction will be obvious.
On a more serious note, I hear black people can't swim and the Japanese are Cylons.
Comfortable, permanent
Undisputed, every tense
Not a trace of what went left
More equal than the best
Unparalleled success
Everybody, V-impressed
Slavery didn't die we still benefit from slave labor right now.
Google Nestle and slaves
I'm with Darius Black.
Post A1: Racism is real, and its a bad thing.
Post B1: Maybe (even though its all overblown), but whats really tragic is how black people hate white people! They make up racism!
Post A2: In the US, whites are the majority and whites disproportionately control wealth and power. Here are a number of studies that demonstrate racism both overt and subtle by some of the most respected universities in the world.
Post B2: Nuh-uh! The report I didn't read has problems X Y AND Z and it ignores that they bring it on themselves and then want whites to fix it!
Post A3: Points X Y and Z are all addressed in the study. And when you look at poverty and regional rate in relationship to education and crime there are some trends....
Post B3: Blacks are racist so I can be too! Not that I am but any complaints they make are made up because they are racist.
Its a topic that requires civility, courage and intelligence to address fairly, and one a-hole on a thread can ruin that. There's a reason these threads can never go anywhere.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
An interesting article does come up as a result, but I don't know if blaming nestle is the answer. If nestle didn't buy it some other company based in a nation like china would buy the cocoa instead. It is not like nestle owns the plantations. And anyways, the problems in Africa wouldn't magically be solved if everyone in the world had the same skin colour. If they were white they wouldn't be any less poor, and starving.
I think the cop in the article from the OP is a disgusting blot of humanity. Why didn't anyone stop him if they new he enjoyed tazering people needlessly? We should send him on the next flight to ivory coast to work on a cocoa plantation. England had a good thing going sending criminals to Australia, and hey, that country turned out alright. Lets just pick somewhere and deport the worst criminals there. There have got to be some islands left in the pacific. I'd suggest making it a reality TV show but its probably been done already.
There wouldn't be a reasonable argument for affirmative action if there was some equality in the education. As it is, affirmative action is like a sticking plaster on a gaping chest wound.
I'm not sure what that has to do with what I posted?
Does slavery still exist? Yes.
Do we benefit from it? Yes.
Yeah if we were all one color people would still find a way to be bigoted but we're not so the THAT point is moot as well.
Of course, part of the problem is that our collective labels for the cultures being discussed are often black and white. Not only does this labeling oversimplify the multifaceted array of cultures held by people with black and white skin, it also makes it easier to lose sight just how much these cultures have intermingled with each other. See, for example, rock music. I also think it's important to accept that certain sub-cultures that are often associated with race should be open to to criticism.
And—this might be a stretch—I think people should distinguish racism from what someone does when they assume someone with black skin lives in the ghetto. I think racism, as the word has classically been understood, refers to a belief that skin color is an actual indicator of genetic inferiority, that, because someone has dark skin, they are necessarily less intelligent or moral than people with light skin. I think someone with this belief is expressing a very different sort of bigotry than someone who makes a false assumption about a black person's culture and background based only on his skin color.
Correlation != causation, but unfortunately this logic only seems to be applied when it benefits the victimization culture, not when it opposes it.
That's not because of some vast government conspiracy against Blacks and Latinos, though. That's because school funding comes primarily from local taxes, therefore the more economically prosperous a region is the more money goes into its schools, and vice versa. It's a silly system, and I've gone on the record more than once saying that we need to bring school funding up to at least the state level and then increase the funding across the board by at least 30%, but it's important to understand that this situation is, once again, irrelevant to the race of the inhabitants of the neighborhood.
Ever heard of blockbusting and white flight? Yeah, especially in major northern cities, race is a huge part of it.
Today, PantsB is my favorite forumer.
Well, second favorite, but it's hard to top MikeMan's sloppy blowjobs. That boy gobbles cock like the nookie monster.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
OK, the reason these neighborhoods are primarily minority and poor is mostly a function of racism, but I'm just saying that the reason their schools are funded less isn't because there some guy on the school board saying "We better not give these darkies the funding they need, or else they'll get out and terk our jerbs"
Correlation != causation.
The point I am making is that people wouldn't try and use affirmative action as a 'solution' for racial disparity in the school system if there was more equality in school funding. I agree that there are more accurate and less divisive solutions, that was my point. Again, I'm sorry if I'm not expressing myself clearly to you.
No, there's definitely a thread of that too it as well. Here in Georgia, Fulton County is devided pretty fiercely by the rich whitey North Fulton'ers and the poor black South Fulton'ers. The Shafer Amendment in 2005 basically divided the rich area from the poor area as far as the distribution of taxes. It's still one county, and by all rights the money should be distributed equally, but it's not because of racism and ignorance, and David god damned Shafer.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
And I'll point out that racism doesn't have to premeditated or deliberate to be racism. Combine an attitude that "blacks do it to themselves - if they just worked as hard as whites, they'd get out of the ghetto and do better for themselves" with an attitude that "you can't just throw money at a troubled school district and expect it to get better - so let's give the money to a school district that's been giving us high test scores for the last five years instead" and you have a paradigm that is functionally equivalent to racism.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
If you replace "blacks" with "poor people," it's functionally equivalent to the overarching conservative ideas about wealth distribution.
How is it not? It leads to the same cycle. We don't give blacks equal educational opportunities, which leads to them performing worse on tests and in the job market, which leads to the further perception that their failure to compete is due to some intrinsic personal defect, which leads to further withholding of educational opportunities. That the intrinsic personal defect is "they do it to themselves" rather than "they're genetically inferior" doesn't change the function of the vicious cycle.
And, yes, I will admit that there is a grain of truth to the attitude that "blacks do it to themselves." There's a pretty well-documented phenomenon of black youth resisting of the educational opportunities they've been given for various reasons. But you know what? When people perceive that the deck is stacked against them, that working hard will just result in failure at the hands of an unfair system, people tend to throw their hands up and say "fuck it."
As others have said, it is a complex problem without an easy answer. It usually has to be addressed at the most granular levels possible - individual communities, individual neighborhoods, individual schools, individual people. But while we can't control the actions of individual persons, we can control the actions of institutions and systems. Those are the tools we have to shape society, and we have to start by making sure that everybody gets a fair shake - even if we worry that some of them won't take advantage of it.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Obviously that's bullshit, but I'm in Atlanta, too, and I think Fulton County just needs to be straight up divided in half because the halves are entirely different, not just racially. I mean, does Midtown Atlanta really need to be in the same county as Alpharetta, Roswell, Sandy Springs, etc.?
Anyway, I'm against dividing it in half, as wonky-looking of a county as it is, just because I don't want to give the secessionists what they want.
How is it not? It leads to the same cycle.[/quote]
Which is functionally equivalent to the poverty cycle.
I don't see what nature of the cycle has to do with its proximate cause being racism.
I agree, though I think that blacks would be better served if they stopped identifying their struggle as one of white vs. black (racially or culturally) and started identifying it in terms of economics, like Martin Luther King tried to do. This is where labeling the cycle as a "racist problem" is doing more harm than good.
I agree with you—I mean, I'm basically a socialist. I just don't see what this has to do with racism.
My roommate works with poor, mostly black (also some Latino and immigrant) kids. He is goofy and they like him, and apparently because of this, some of them claim that he's "not actually white." For the kids, "white" is simply a cultural identifier—it means "other," often "oppressor."
There is a problem that the deck is stacked up against these kids, and I don't doubt that many of them have experienced real, vicious racism. But I think everyone needs to re-examine this whole narrative of systemic white oppression against blacks. I don't think this narrative is true any longer in today's world, and I think the perpetuation of this narrative is perpetuating this "us-vs.-them" subculture.
This.
I really really hate this. Also the whole "White-Washed" thing which is just another word for "Successful" but treated as "Traitor." Its like calling women CEOs "dick-washed."
One of the most useful things someone could do in this world is to find a way to turn envy into inspiration.
Ok, quick history lesson: North Fulton County used to be Milton County 100 years ago. It was rural. And during the depression, tax revenues got so low that there literally was not enough revenue to run a government at all. So Fulton County (Atlanta) and all their rich city-folk annexed Milton so that they could retain basic government services.
Jump forward past civil rights, white flight, several interstates, and the takeover of Atlanta and Fulton government by race-focused black politicians. Now North Fulton is wildly affluent suburbs and Atlanta is poverty, crime and desolation. Tax revenue cascades in avalanches from North to South to fund social programs and city infrastructure, to the point where commuting in North Fulton is a disaster of stop-and-go traffic along little one-lane roads that haven't seen improvement in decades. Like in the past, this area can't get basic government services anymore (well, it's not that bad, but deliciously ironic anyway).
Discrimination in taxation and spending is rampant, where tax officials in the South are on the record blasting North Fulton residents with unfair land assessments and then literally stating "too bad, you white folk ought to pay more anyway" when it gets challenged.
While I don't agree with the idea of secession in general (because, really, couldn't I just secede as an individual and not pay taxes at all?), one must acknowledge when things are getting too out of hand. Sandy Springs finally incorporated, which isn't quite as valuable as secession, but already majorly needed improvements in basic government responsibilities are popping up all over.
EDIT: Mmmmm... dick-washed...
For example, they were surprised that my roommate was voting for Barack Obama. They didn't know that white people would support Barack Obama. I think that this perception that all white people are dogmatically opposed to black people is so fragile that it's basically doomed to fall apart—probably sooner rather than later, at the rate our generation is going.
It's not just about being successful. It's about being successful while selling who you are out - take Clarence Thomas, for example. And yes, you could find "dick-washed" women as well - Coulter and Malkin are prime examples of such.
I think the jury's in on Thomas. But here's the clue - when you start advocating policies that would fuck you yourself over based on some minor difference, then you're probably a sellout.
Selling out is a horribly abused term.
Coulter is a mysogynist. That doesn't make her a sellout, that makes her a hypocrite.
And in relation to economic status, that's like saying a high school senior is a sellout for going to college.
Seriously, just look up any case dealing with race where he was on the Court. I will give him one piece of credit - he is consistent in his cravenness.
She's a sellout in that she would willingly fuck herself (as well as other women) over for the benefit of her masters.
When I graduated high school, I moved up to Minnesota, where some people mistook me for being Hispanic, because now I'm "too brown" (I'm not directly Hispanic, but I'm Filipino, so...close enough?
My opinion on X-on-white racism vs. white-on-X racism? People are inherently tribalistic, which is why we have to build the system (i.e. government) to be resistant to abuse, because we can't trust people not to be racist. Even assuming black people were on average doing as well as white people, there's still going to be some asshole trying to deny them jobs or education or tasering them to death.