Why don't you vote with your wallet instead of passively aggressively moaning about the situation.
Protip: I did. I don't own ME for PC.
Then what is your complaint then?
If it's something he sees as a trend on a platform for which he'd like to buy more games, why SHOULDN'T he complain about it? He's a consumer, and this is something that has informed the way he'll direct his dollars. Seems to me that talking about it is perfectly legitimate.
If he's a potential customer for Product X, yet Feature B has ensured Product X won't get his money, 1) why shouldn't he say so, and 2) wouldn't the makers of Product X want to know about that?
You seem to be suggesting he has no complaint, since the DRM on Mass Effect did not impact him, and honestly I think that's kind of silly. It did impact him, since it helped steer his purchase decision, and if such measures are going to be increasingly used on the PC platform it's going to more frequently impact him (and others) in the future. Why not complain about that, if it's an issue to him?
Frankly, it's an issue to me, too. I'm disinclined to spend my money on something that may not be functional 10 years down the road not due to hardware issues, but due to support issues.
So you are saying that the only way that developers should try to prevent piracy is by adding in multiplayer. Do you know how stupid that is?
What do Irrational do for Bioshock? A single player only game.
'Oh well, guess we can't stop piracy cause we have no online component. Better luck next time eh guys'.
Jesus christ can people get some real world sense in here please.
Hmm, lets look at Half-Life 2 for a minute. I have two copies of the game (original, and the one that came with orange box, YAY) and I've never heard of anyone pirating the game.
Why is that? (serious question)
Because you weren't listening to the pirating scene when it came out?
Steam came around and people talked about how HL2 was "Pirate proof". A week or so later? Turns out it wasn't.
I really, really doubt that those people that are pirating MEPC were totally going to buy it but then they saw that there was DRM and instead decided to steal it. I think they would've stolen it anyways. If they wanted to buy it and not deal with any DRM, why not buy it and crack it? The idea that it's "pushing legitimate customers to piracy" I think is absurd.
All good points, and I agree with you. The whole "my peace of mind" thing was more or less for my personally, and not a general statement of others' state of mind.
But, you've just proven my point. General pirates were never apart of the consumer base any ways. So why put it into place anyways?
So you are saying that the only way that developers should try to prevent piracy is by adding in multiplayer. Do you know how stupid that is?
What do Irrational do for Bioshock? A single player only game.
'Oh well, guess we can't stop piracy cause we have no online component. Better luck next time eh guys'.
Jesus christ can people get some real world sense in here please.
or you know, have an online registration for the CD key before you can play single player. Though historically, people have bitched about that too.
I find it amusing that your stance seems to have been "lets be sensible" yet your posts have been less sensible than the non-sensible people. Even more inflammatory to boot.
Just another point, something I'd like to hear your opinions on:
Theory:
People who pirate were never apart of the consumer base any ways. Developers made the game for people who buy their games. Piraters aren't among that group. Had the game not been available as a torrent, would they buy it? I highly doubt it.
Others agree, others disagree. But lets go back in time, and lets say Crysis never had a torrent put up for it. It was torrent-proof. Would sales have been significantly different? Lets hear your guys' take, I've put mine in.
There is definitely a segment of the pirate population who pirate the game to "try it out" and then "If they like it they'll buy it" and then oh look, they liked it but... funny they just kept playing the pirated version. If there was a demo and no piracy... that's probably a lost sale due to piracy. Hell back when I pirated because I had no income and didn't know what would run on my puny little laptop I know I did this with GalCiv 2. I have since bought the full game, and the two expansions, because now that I don't pirate. Same exact situation with Civ4. The piracy as demo crowd is definitely there, just once the full game is already on your hard drive... well it's a lot harder to make yourself buy the game then.
Also there's a group of people who just pirate everything. It's like some sort of honor thing to see how many pirated games they can have. Dude I got so many pirated games. Sometimes they don't play them. If there was no piracy... also probably a lost sale due to piracy. Maybe not on a specific game, but if somehow piracy was stopped alltogether, or made incredibly difficult? Yeah, there'd be more sales from these people.
Then there are the pirates who pirate as though they're shopping but everything's free. They get games they're interested in, play them maybe delete them or archive them, basically it's their collection. These people probably wouldn't buy games if piracy didn't exist.
So you are saying that the only way that developers should try to prevent piracy is by adding in multiplayer. Do you know how stupid that is?
What do Irrational do for Bioshock? A single player only game.
'Oh well, guess we can't stop piracy cause we have no online component. Better luck next time eh guys'.
Jesus christ can people get some real world sense in here please.
Hmm, lets look at Half-Life 2 for a minute. I have two copies of the game (original, and the one that came with orange box, YAY) and I've never heard of anyone pirating the game.
Why is that? (serious question)
HL2 is pirated more than you think. I'm guessing it might not be pirated as much as many believe because people like using the SDK and playing HL2 mods and people just generally like Valve.
I seldom hear complaints about Valve; more than the inevitable "Valve... you're taking three millenia to get this game out. Hurry up!!"
Daxon on
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
So you are saying that the only way that developers should try to prevent piracy is by adding in multiplayer. Do you know how stupid that is?
What do Irrational do for Bioshock? A single player only game.
'Oh well, guess we can't stop piracy cause we have no online component. Better luck next time eh guys'.
Jesus christ can people get some real world sense in here please.
Online component != multiplayer.
Also, I bought Bioshock for the PC. Loved it. I'm worried about future installations since I play games pretty much forever. At least, as long as I can. I hate it when OS progression rules out playing older games (I still have Phantasmagoria and would LOVE to play it, but it wouldn't even work under XP let alone Vista) so when a company limits the life of the game that I bought by an arbitrary number of installs I get a little tense.
I'm finding myself not playing anything other than MMOs on PC because of the DRM bullshit. It's cool because I have an XBox 360, but DRM is having the opposite effect on me than the maker's want. When EA announced that Spore was going to have constant checks I scratched it from my list. Thankfully they removed that, but that wasn't an idle claim. If a game has a DRM component to it that I object to I will not buy that game.
I don't understand what this limit of installs is really supposed to achieve. How long would it take me to go get a cracked copy of Bioshock? Probably less time than it takes to drive to Best Buy to pick up a legitimate copy. So really, all they achieve with something like that is increasing complexity of use for their customers without any benefit.
So your game has no multiplayer? Fine. The CD-Key is still valid since you can track how many times a cd-key gets used. If the person is not connected to the internet at install, just let it go. Seriously. I don't believe for a minute that a game with Bioshock or ME's level of DRM is pirated any less than Diablo 2. A game I DID pirate at first (But have now bought. Twice.). All Diablo 2 has is a CD-key.
So you are saying that the only way that developers should try to prevent piracy is by adding in multiplayer. Do you know how stupid that is?
What do Irrational do for Bioshock? A single player only game.
'Oh well, guess we can't stop piracy cause we have no online component. Better luck next time eh guys'.
Jesus christ can people get some real world sense in here please.
Hmm, lets look at Half-Life 2 for a minute. I have two copies of the game (original, and the one that came with orange box, YAY) and I've never heard of anyone pirating the game.
Why is that? (serious question)
HL2 is pirated more than you think. I'm guessing it might not be pirated as much as many believe because people like using the SDK and playing HL2 mods and people just generally like Valve.
I seldom hear complaints about Valve; more than the inevitable "Valve... you're taking three millenia to get this game out. Hurry up!!"
*sigh* I love Valve. They make everything so great and hassle free. I have no clouds over my head with Steam. Speaking of Steam, EA's counterpart differs with Steam in that you have to pay for EA to keep the game tied to your online account. Even though you've already bought it, or may not have a physical copy of the game cause you got it digitally.
Imagine downloading HL2: Episode 1-2 and deciding to run HL2 through first before going into the expansions. But oh look, its been 6 months since you bought them...you can't play them because EA removed them form your library! WTF. Steam forever.
So you are saying that the only way that developers should try to prevent piracy is by adding in multiplayer. Do you know how stupid that is?
What do Irrational do for Bioshock? A single player only game.
'Oh well, guess we can't stop piracy cause we have no online component. Better luck next time eh guys'.
Jesus christ can people get some real world sense in here please.
or you know, have an online registration for the CD key before you can play single player. Though historically, people have bitched about that too.
I find it amusing that your stance seems to have been "lets be sensible" yet your posts have been less sensible than the non-sensible people. Even more inflammatory to boot.
Because there is so much stupid in here. And every piracy thread.
'Have online registration for the CD key before you can play single player'.
So people without internet connections can't buy the game? well done, you just cut out some of your potential sales.
Oh, and that will get cracked day one just like Half Life 2 and every Steam game is. So it is ultimately like DRM just hurting legitimate sales not the pirates.
Do some actual research into piracy before you start claiming 'oh just have online' is a solution. Because it isnt, and never will be.
I'm not vindicating EAs stupid DRM, but the alternatives people keep bringing up are no better and yet they claim 'oh if EA just did this all would be fine'.
Everything should just go through steam, gets rid of a shit load of pirating. I'm sure everyone on this forum has pirated digital media in some form, have any more than a tiny percentage pirated valve games and not bought a full copy at some point?
Who wants to not have the multiplayer, auta-updating, ease of re-install, no cd-needed, and now steamcloud and shit.
thejazzman on
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
I'm not vindicating EAs stupid DRM, but the alternatives people keep bringing up are no better and yet they claim 'oh if EA just did this all would be fine'.
All I suggested was the DRM method that the most successful developer in the fucking world uses. Jesus Christ.
So you are saying that the only way that developers should try to prevent piracy is by adding in multiplayer. Do you know how stupid that is?
What do Irrational do for Bioshock? A single player only game.
'Oh well, guess we can't stop piracy cause we have no online component. Better luck next time eh guys'.
Jesus christ can people get some real world sense in here please.
or you know, have an online registration for the CD key before you can play single player. Though historically, people have bitched about that too.
I find it amusing that your stance seems to have been "lets be sensible" yet your posts have been less sensible than the non-sensible people. Even more inflammatory to boot.
Because there is so much stupid in here. And every piracy thread.
'Have online registration for the CD key before you can play single player'.
So people without internet connections can't buy the game? well done, you just cut out some of your potential sales.
Oh, and that will get cracked day one just like Half Life 2 and every Steam game is. So it is ultimately like DRM just hurting legitimate sales not the pirates.
Do some actual research into piracy before you start claiming 'oh just have online' is a solution. Because it isnt, and never will be.
I'm not vindicating EAs stupid DRM, but the alternatives people keep bringing up are no better and yet they claim 'oh if EA just did this all would be fine'.
Games like SoaSE prove that you dont need DRM to protect the sales.
I didn't quote the post because it would have been way longer than what I'm saying, but:
To Nova_C: The Bioshock DRM was removed. It's gone now, patched away officially. Happy playing it 9 years down the line.
And RE: Phantamasgoria... Is DosBox an option? I can't recall if that game was DOS or early win95.
Dehumanized on
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
edited July 2008
Oh, cool. Because I totally do that. Hell, when I found out I could download the original Doom for XBox I squealed like a girl.
EDIT: I tried DOSBox a while ago and for some reason I had trouble with....something or other. Can't remember. Anyway, it was a long time ago and I gave it up as impossible. :P Maybe I should try again.
Everything should just go through steam, gets rid of a shit load of pirating. I'm sure everyone on this forum has pirated digital media in some form, have any more than a tiny percentage pirated valve games and not bought a full copy at some point?
Who wants to not have the multiplayer, auta-updating, ease of re-install, no cd-needed, and now steamcloud and shit.
Fewer people pirate Valve games because the quality justifies the purchase.
But don't act like Valve games aren't pirated, or even to the same degree as other games. Because they are. Steam was cracked years ago.
People are looking at this the wrong way. Steam inherently doesn't prevent piracy. There is nothing different about the online service which stymies pirates.
Steam combats piracy by rewarding the legitimate customer. It is easy and simple to buy games on Steam. As easy as pirating a game. This cuts out a lot of pirates right there, who by their nature are lazy in terms of purchasing.
Steam also auto updates your games, and Valve games always come with free content updates. See TF2 maps, CS has had free maps for years.
That is the best way to combat piracy. Put effort into rewarding the legitimate customer. Stardock have proved this is an absolutely viable business method with Impulse and their recent games.
But don't take that to mean what EA are doing is evil. Or stupid. They have to try and stop piracy, and I bet their draconian DRM does stop some of it. It needs refinement. Not e very company if fucking Valve software. They are the exception so don't apply them to all situations.
I'm not vindicating EAs stupid DRM, but the alternatives people keep bringing up are no better and yet they claim 'oh if EA just did this all would be fine'.
All I suggested was the DRM method that the most successful developer in the fucking world uses. Jesus Christ.
Valve are not successful because they are any more adept at combating piracy than anyone else.
Please understand this before we continue this discussion.
Our other methods of copy protection remain. You will still have to activate your copy, and you will still need to keep the disc in the drive. SecuROM has not been removed -- just the activation limits on number of installs and number of computers you can install BioShock on simultaneously.
As I promised that the activation limits would go away, I can promise that if we ever stop supporting BioShock in the ways you speak of, we will release a patch so that the game is still playable. I believe, as you seem to, that BioShock will be the kind of game we will want to revisit 5, 10, 15 or more years from now. I want my copy to be playable, just as you do, and so does 2K.
Statements promising things as in the second paragraph, I usually take with just a wee bit of salt.
I'd also hazard a guess that people love the Source engine and justify buying a Valve game just so they can use the gazillions of mods out there. Valve lets you do a lot of stuff with the things they've built from scratch.
I seem to remember one of the branches of EA this spring fired their employees in a unique way. For the life of me I can't remember what branch it was, but one day they showed up to worked and their building was locked and the security guards wouldn't let them in. It was a small office building, I think about 120-150 employees. Their computers and papers were locked up, to prevent them from going off with company secrets or leaking game details because they'd be disgruntled about being fired so suddenly.
Basically, I hate EA because they treat employees like crap. And companies that ONLY care about profits are the scum of the Earth, and most of what I learn about EA points to them being one of these companies.
Actually, this isn't new, I help manage a theater here in STL, and it's company policy to not tell anyone who is paid hourly that the theater is closed until the day it is closed. It's called Loss Prevention. It's common among most businesses so the employees don't run off with laptops and couches the night before.
Our other methods of copy protection remain. You will still have to activate your copy, and you will still need to keep the disc in the drive. SecuROM has not been removed -- just the activation limits on number of installs and number of computers you can install BioShock on simultaneously.
As I promised that the activation limits would go away, I can promise that if we ever stop supporting BioShock in the ways you speak of, we will release a patch so that the game is still playable. I believe, as you seem to, that BioShock will be the kind of game we will want to revisit 5, 10, 15 or more years from now. I want my copy to be playable, just as you do, and so does 2K.
Statements promising things as in the second paragraph, I usually take with just a wee bit of salt.
Ah, I never saw that clarification. Didn't mean to mislead.
So you are saying that the only way that developers should try to prevent piracy is by adding in multiplayer. Do you know how stupid that is?
What do Irrational do for Bioshock? A single player only game.
'Oh well, guess we can't stop piracy cause we have no online component. Better luck next time eh guys'.
Jesus christ can people get some real world sense in here please.
Hmm, lets look at Half-Life 2 for a minute. I have two copies of the game (original, and the one that came with orange box, YAY) and I've never heard of anyone pirating the game.
Why is that? (serious question)
HL2 is pirated more than you think. I'm guessing it might not be pirated as much as many believe because people like using the SDK and playing HL2 mods and people just generally like Valve.
I seldom hear complaints about Valve; more than the inevitable "Valve... you're taking three millenia to get this game out. Hurry up!!"
I was among those not altogether happy with Steam when Half-Life 2 was first announced. I hesitated before I made my purchase.
Ultimately I went ahead and bought the game, because I knew it would be full of awesome and I didn't want to deprive myself. I'm glad I did, and naturally I've grabbed both episodes since (because Half-Life has more awesome than any one game should have), but I'm still not a huge fan of certain aspects of the Steam concept. Not because it doesn't do its job well -- it does -- but because I wonder about what happens to your Steam stuff when Steam is gone.
Maybe they've addressed it already. I confess, I don't know. I don't know because I do not purchase products through Steam, and I do not purchase products through Steam because I am not a fan of aspects pf the concept.
Patches are all well and good, but if in 2020 I want to play a game from this year (and why not? I've recently played PC games from 1996, after all), I sure don't want to bank on there still being some archive of the patch in some corner of the web. I just want to play my game.
That said, I'll continue to buy every installment of Half-Life (and now Portal), because they are way too awesome. And that means that in this case, I've done a bad job voting with my wallet.
Valve are not successful because they are any more adept at combating piracy than anyone else.
Please understand this before we continue this discussion.
Please read my posts before we continue.
Ah, fuck it, I'll recap.
I suggested the DRM in Diablo 2 as superior because look at the crazy success of Blizzard games (So I was talking about Blizzard, not Valve). I'm not saying every company is Blizzard or will be as successful but I don't see why a company with a higher profile would have less piracy than one with a lower profile. It stands to reason that Blizzard games are pirated all to hell and back. And they have seen fit NOT to step all over their customers in order to prevent that piracy. My question to all the developers that DO see fit to step on their customers is, simply, why? Is it simply because their games aren't very good? Or because to them, everything is expendable when it comes to getting each and every sale?
If we're talking about the health of a company, poor service is more destructive than theft.
So you are saying that the only way that developers should try to prevent piracy is by adding in multiplayer. Do you know how stupid that is?
What do Irrational do for Bioshock? A single player only game.
'Oh well, guess we can't stop piracy cause we have no online component. Better luck next time eh guys'.
Jesus christ can people get some real world sense in here please.
Hmm, lets look at Half-Life 2 for a minute. I have two copies of the game (original, and the one that came with orange box, YAY) and I've never heard of anyone pirating the game.
Why is that? (serious question)
HL2 is pirated more than you think. I'm guessing it might not be pirated as much as many believe because people like using the SDK and playing HL2 mods and people just generally like Valve.
I seldom hear complaints about Valve; more than the inevitable "Valve... you're taking three millenia to get this game out. Hurry up!!"
I was among those not altogether happy with Steam when Half-Life 2 was first announced. I hesitated before I made my purchase.
Ultimately I went ahead and bought the game, because I knew it would be full of awesome and I didn't want to deprive myself. I'm glad I did, and naturally I've grabbed both episodes since (because Half-Life has more awesome than any one game should have), but I'm still not a huge fan of certain aspects of the Steam concept. Not because it doesn't do its job well -- it does -- but because I wonder about what happens to your Steam stuff when Steam is gone.
Maybe they've addressed it already. I confess, I don't know. I don't know because I do not purchase products through Steam, and I do not purchase products through Steam because I am not a fan of aspects pf the concept.
There's constant references to Gabe Newell having once said that if Valve / Steam go under then they'd release a patch which would free the games from the DRM restriction.
Generally I'm not too inclined to go with that unless they make it a part of the actual Steam contract or EULA. Until then, yeah, I promise you there'll be cake.
There's another slight problem there in that this doesn't answer the question of what happens to non-Valve games on Steam. I doubt that Valve would be authorised to (and would probably be unable to receive authorisation to) suddenly remove the DRM from other companies products, even if it is their own DRM.
But like I said before, I'd never have purchased anything on Steam if I didn't know I could just get it on Bittorrent later. I don't expect them to keep that promise if I'm honest, but I'm not going to care as long as I can download it later. Yes that is technically piracy, but really, who's going to care by that stage if Valve is already going out of business? If someone actually gets arrested on that, it might make for an interesting legal case. Didn't he purchase the right to play the game? Or did he just purchase a service and now that the service provider is no longer present, he doesn't get squat?
People seem to think that this is an impossible idea and that companies are inherently moral constructs that will always try to ensure your rights. Personally, I just view them as always trying to ensure their profits. If the two happen to go hand in hand, then I consider that a business model that I like.
If you don't believe that's really likely, just look at what happened with MSN music. What recourse exactly do those customers have now that the tracks that they purchased are locked under DRM, and Microsoft has shut down the service? MS sure as crap hasn't provided them with DRM free versions, they got their money, and pretty much it's the customers loss.
hey nova. Blizzard hasn't released a not-mmo since 2003, before broadband internet got into every home on the planet. You should probably wait and see what the copy protection on Starcraft 2 is like before you go on about their consumer-focused antipiracy strategy.
zilo on
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
hey nova. Blizzard hasn't released a not-mmo since 2003, before broadband internet got into every home on the planet. You should probably wait and see what the copy protection on Starcraft 2 is like before you go on about their consumer-focused antipiracy strategy.
Considering their recent patches has removed the need to have the cd in the drive for those old games, I'm willing to go a bit on faith, but your point is well taken. We'll see.
It's interesting, though. Most people I know who play games have been on broadband since <2000. I know I first got hooked up in '99.
Nova_C on
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acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
edited July 2008
there are people without broadband? there are people without internet? These people purchase video game software?
hey nova. Blizzard hasn't released a not-mmo since 2003, before broadband internet got into every home on the planet. You should probably wait and see what the copy protection on Starcraft 2 is like before you go on about their consumer-focused antipiracy strategy.
Considering their recent patches has removed the need to have the cd in the drive for those old games, I'm willing to go a bit on faith, but your point is well taken. We'll see.
It's interesting, though. Most people I know who play games have been on broadband since <2000. I know I first got hooked up in '99.
The will likely use a version of their warden client for copy protection.
there are people without broadband? there are people without internet? These people purchase video game software?
not anymore. hooray for the future!
also Nova, they patched the no-cd stuff in years and years later. Have any of the games the anti-DRM people are abloobloo'ing about even been out that long? More than, say, 24 months?
zilo on
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
there are people without broadband? there are people without internet? These people purchase video game software?
not anymore. hooray for the future!
also Nova, they patched the no-cd stuff in years and years later. Have any of the games the anti-DRM people are abloobloo'ing about even been out that long? More than, say, 24 months?
What I'm saying is if Blizzard was more worried about piracy now than they used to be, why would they patch the no-cd crack right into their own games?
I thought the no-CD being patched into the game was part of making sure that they could keep their new online distribution system the same as brick&mortar copies.
Dehumanized on
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
I thought the no-CD being patched into the game was part of making sure that they could keep their new online distribution system the same as brick&mortar copies.
So like Steam then? Oh God, now there's TWO of them doing the same thing and it's working? Holy shit, who would've thought?
Look, this whole thing isn't about me saying everyone should emulate Blizzard and Valve. This is about me being told that my suggestion that Cd-Keys are good is stupid and me saying if it's so stupid, why are the rock star developers doing it?
I thought the no-CD being patched into the game was part of making sure that they could keep their new online distribution system the same as brick&mortar copies.
So like Steam then? Oh God, now there's TWO of them doing the same thing and it's working? Holy shit, who would've thought?
Look, this whole thing isn't about me saying everyone should emulate Blizzard and Valve. This is about me being told that my suggestion that Cd-Keys are good is stupid and me saying if it's so stupid, why are the rock star developers doing it?
Anyone who says they're stupid is stupid. Everybody (barring niche developers) uses them. In fact, they provide for one of the only ways to track a game's piracy rate.
I thought the no-CD being patched into the game was part of making sure that they could keep their new online distribution system the same as brick&mortar copies.
So like Steam then? Oh God, now there's TWO of them doing the same thing and it's working? Holy shit, who would've thought?
Look, this whole thing isn't about me saying everyone should emulate Blizzard and Valve. This is about me being told that my suggestion that Cd-Keys are good is stupid and me saying if it's so stupid, why are the rock star developers doing it?
Anyone who says they're stupid is stupid. Everybody (barring niche developers) uses them. In fact, they provide for one of the only ways to track a game's piracy rate.
How does a cd key help track how pirated a game is?
Posts
It could have a conversation mode, and a combat mode.
If he's a potential customer for Product X, yet Feature B has ensured Product X won't get his money, 1) why shouldn't he say so, and 2) wouldn't the makers of Product X want to know about that?
You seem to be suggesting he has no complaint, since the DRM on Mass Effect did not impact him, and honestly I think that's kind of silly. It did impact him, since it helped steer his purchase decision, and if such measures are going to be increasingly used on the PC platform it's going to more frequently impact him (and others) in the future. Why not complain about that, if it's an issue to him?
Frankly, it's an issue to me, too. I'm disinclined to spend my money on something that may not be functional 10 years down the road not due to hardware issues, but due to support issues.
Because you weren't listening to the pirating scene when it came out?
Steam came around and people talked about how HL2 was "Pirate proof". A week or so later? Turns out it wasn't.
HL2 piracy did and does happen.
All good points, and I agree with you. The whole "my peace of mind" thing was more or less for my personally, and not a general statement of others' state of mind.
But, you've just proven my point. General pirates were never apart of the consumer base any ways. So why put it into place anyways?
Paragon: "Please put down your weapon"
Renegade: "Say goodnight Manuel"
or you know, have an online registration for the CD key before you can play single player. Though historically, people have bitched about that too.
I find it amusing that your stance seems to have been "lets be sensible" yet your posts have been less sensible than the non-sensible people. Even more inflammatory to boot.
There is definitely a segment of the pirate population who pirate the game to "try it out" and then "If they like it they'll buy it" and then oh look, they liked it but... funny they just kept playing the pirated version. If there was a demo and no piracy... that's probably a lost sale due to piracy. Hell back when I pirated because I had no income and didn't know what would run on my puny little laptop I know I did this with GalCiv 2. I have since bought the full game, and the two expansions, because now that I don't pirate. Same exact situation with Civ4. The piracy as demo crowd is definitely there, just once the full game is already on your hard drive... well it's a lot harder to make yourself buy the game then.
Also there's a group of people who just pirate everything. It's like some sort of honor thing to see how many pirated games they can have. Dude I got so many pirated games. Sometimes they don't play them. If there was no piracy... also probably a lost sale due to piracy. Maybe not on a specific game, but if somehow piracy was stopped alltogether, or made incredibly difficult? Yeah, there'd be more sales from these people.
Then there are the pirates who pirate as though they're shopping but everything's free. They get games they're interested in, play them maybe delete them or archive them, basically it's their collection. These people probably wouldn't buy games if piracy didn't exist.
HL2 is pirated more than you think. I'm guessing it might not be pirated as much as many believe because people like using the SDK and playing HL2 mods and people just generally like Valve.
I seldom hear complaints about Valve; more than the inevitable "Valve... you're taking three millenia to get this game out. Hurry up!!"
Online component != multiplayer.
Also, I bought Bioshock for the PC. Loved it. I'm worried about future installations since I play games pretty much forever. At least, as long as I can. I hate it when OS progression rules out playing older games (I still have Phantasmagoria and would LOVE to play it, but it wouldn't even work under XP let alone Vista) so when a company limits the life of the game that I bought by an arbitrary number of installs I get a little tense.
I'm finding myself not playing anything other than MMOs on PC because of the DRM bullshit. It's cool because I have an XBox 360, but DRM is having the opposite effect on me than the maker's want. When EA announced that Spore was going to have constant checks I scratched it from my list. Thankfully they removed that, but that wasn't an idle claim. If a game has a DRM component to it that I object to I will not buy that game.
I don't understand what this limit of installs is really supposed to achieve. How long would it take me to go get a cracked copy of Bioshock? Probably less time than it takes to drive to Best Buy to pick up a legitimate copy. So really, all they achieve with something like that is increasing complexity of use for their customers without any benefit.
So your game has no multiplayer? Fine. The CD-Key is still valid since you can track how many times a cd-key gets used. If the person is not connected to the internet at install, just let it go. Seriously. I don't believe for a minute that a game with Bioshock or ME's level of DRM is pirated any less than Diablo 2. A game I DID pirate at first (But have now bought. Twice.). All Diablo 2 has is a CD-key.
*sigh* I love Valve. They make everything so great and hassle free. I have no clouds over my head with Steam. Speaking of Steam, EA's counterpart differs with Steam in that you have to pay for EA to keep the game tied to your online account. Even though you've already bought it, or may not have a physical copy of the game cause you got it digitally.
Imagine downloading HL2: Episode 1-2 and deciding to run HL2 through first before going into the expansions. But oh look, its been 6 months since you bought them...you can't play them because EA removed them form your library! WTF.
Because there is so much stupid in here. And every piracy thread.
'Have online registration for the CD key before you can play single player'.
So people without internet connections can't buy the game? well done, you just cut out some of your potential sales.
Oh, and that will get cracked day one just like Half Life 2 and every Steam game is. So it is ultimately like DRM just hurting legitimate sales not the pirates.
Do some actual research into piracy before you start claiming 'oh just have online' is a solution. Because it isnt, and never will be.
I'm not vindicating EAs stupid DRM, but the alternatives people keep bringing up are no better and yet they claim 'oh if EA just did this all would be fine'.
Who wants to not have the multiplayer, auta-updating, ease of re-install, no cd-needed, and now steamcloud and shit.
All I suggested was the DRM method that the most successful developer in the fucking world uses. Jesus Christ.
Games like SoaSE prove that you dont need DRM to protect the sales.
To Nova_C: The Bioshock DRM was removed. It's gone now, patched away officially. Happy playing it 9 years down the line.
And RE: Phantamasgoria... Is DosBox an option? I can't recall if that game was DOS or early win95.
EDIT: I tried DOSBox a while ago and for some reason I had trouble with....something or other. Can't remember. Anyway, it was a long time ago and I gave it up as impossible. :P Maybe I should try again.
The criminally insane?
But don't act like Valve games aren't pirated, or even to the same degree as other games. Because they are. Steam was cracked years ago.
People are looking at this the wrong way. Steam inherently doesn't prevent piracy. There is nothing different about the online service which stymies pirates.
Steam combats piracy by rewarding the legitimate customer. It is easy and simple to buy games on Steam. As easy as pirating a game. This cuts out a lot of pirates right there, who by their nature are lazy in terms of purchasing.
Steam also auto updates your games, and Valve games always come with free content updates. See TF2 maps, CS has had free maps for years.
That is the best way to combat piracy. Put effort into rewarding the legitimate customer. Stardock have proved this is an absolutely viable business method with Impulse and their recent games.
But don't take that to mean what EA are doing is evil. Or stupid. They have to try and stop piracy, and I bet their draconian DRM does stop some of it. It needs refinement. Not e very company if fucking Valve software. They are the exception so don't apply them to all situations.
Valve are not successful because they are any more adept at combating piracy than anyone else.
Please understand this before we continue this discussion.
Um, no it's not. Not quite:
http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/39428/BioShock-DRM-Clarification
Statements promising things as in the second paragraph, I usually take with just a wee bit of salt.
Actually, this isn't new, I help manage a theater here in STL, and it's company policy to not tell anyone who is paid hourly that the theater is closed until the day it is closed. It's called Loss Prevention. It's common among most businesses so the employees don't run off with laptops and couches the night before.
-PSN&360&steam: dei2anged
Ah, I never saw that clarification. Didn't mean to mislead.
Ultimately I went ahead and bought the game, because I knew it would be full of awesome and I didn't want to deprive myself. I'm glad I did, and naturally I've grabbed both episodes since (because Half-Life has more awesome than any one game should have), but I'm still not a huge fan of certain aspects of the Steam concept. Not because it doesn't do its job well -- it does -- but because I wonder about what happens to your Steam stuff when Steam is gone.
Maybe they've addressed it already. I confess, I don't know. I don't know because I do not purchase products through Steam, and I do not purchase products through Steam because I am not a fan of aspects pf the concept.
Patches are all well and good, but if in 2020 I want to play a game from this year (and why not? I've recently played PC games from 1996, after all), I sure don't want to bank on there still being some archive of the patch in some corner of the web. I just want to play my game.
That said, I'll continue to buy every installment of Half-Life (and now Portal), because they are way too awesome. And that means that in this case, I've done a bad job voting with my wallet.
Please read my posts before we continue.
Ah, fuck it, I'll recap.
I suggested the DRM in Diablo 2 as superior because look at the crazy success of Blizzard games (So I was talking about Blizzard, not Valve). I'm not saying every company is Blizzard or will be as successful but I don't see why a company with a higher profile would have less piracy than one with a lower profile. It stands to reason that Blizzard games are pirated all to hell and back. And they have seen fit NOT to step all over their customers in order to prevent that piracy. My question to all the developers that DO see fit to step on their customers is, simply, why? Is it simply because their games aren't very good? Or because to them, everything is expendable when it comes to getting each and every sale?
If we're talking about the health of a company, poor service is more destructive than theft.
There's constant references to Gabe Newell having once said that if Valve / Steam go under then they'd release a patch which would free the games from the DRM restriction.
Generally I'm not too inclined to go with that unless they make it a part of the actual Steam contract or EULA. Until then, yeah, I promise you there'll be cake.
There's another slight problem there in that this doesn't answer the question of what happens to non-Valve games on Steam. I doubt that Valve would be authorised to (and would probably be unable to receive authorisation to) suddenly remove the DRM from other companies products, even if it is their own DRM.
But like I said before, I'd never have purchased anything on Steam if I didn't know I could just get it on Bittorrent later. I don't expect them to keep that promise if I'm honest, but I'm not going to care as long as I can download it later. Yes that is technically piracy, but really, who's going to care by that stage if Valve is already going out of business? If someone actually gets arrested on that, it might make for an interesting legal case. Didn't he purchase the right to play the game? Or did he just purchase a service and now that the service provider is no longer present, he doesn't get squat?
People seem to think that this is an impossible idea and that companies are inherently moral constructs that will always try to ensure your rights. Personally, I just view them as always trying to ensure their profits. If the two happen to go hand in hand, then I consider that a business model that I like.
If you don't believe that's really likely, just look at what happened with MSN music. What recourse exactly do those customers have now that the tracks that they purchased are locked under DRM, and Microsoft has shut down the service? MS sure as crap hasn't provided them with DRM free versions, they got their money, and pretty much it's the customers loss.
Considering their recent patches has removed the need to have the cd in the drive for those old games, I'm willing to go a bit on faith, but your point is well taken. We'll see.
It's interesting, though. Most people I know who play games have been on broadband since <2000. I know I first got hooked up in '99.
sheesh now I've heard everything.
The will likely use a version of their warden client for copy protection.
not anymore. hooray for the future!
also Nova, they patched the no-cd stuff in years and years later. Have any of the games the anti-DRM people are abloobloo'ing about even been out that long? More than, say, 24 months?
What I'm saying is if Blizzard was more worried about piracy now than they used to be, why would they patch the no-cd crack right into their own games?
So like Steam then? Oh God, now there's TWO of them doing the same thing and it's working? Holy shit, who would've thought?
Look, this whole thing isn't about me saying everyone should emulate Blizzard and Valve. This is about me being told that my suggestion that Cd-Keys are good is stupid and me saying if it's so stupid, why are the rock star developers doing it?
Anyone who says they're stupid is stupid. Everybody (barring niche developers) uses them. In fact, they provide for one of the only ways to track a game's piracy rate.
How does a cd key help track how pirated a game is?
Assuming its not one moron with a fucked-to-hell computer that keeps reinstalling over and over. :P