Man so now pyros will never, ever be able to win against a heavy. Ever.
When the health buff hit we were finally pulling even and could survive more often than not.
When they took it away we can only sometimes kill a heavy if he's not paying attention and we can strafe faster than he can turn. If you slow us down then 25% decrease in damage or not, how the hell are you supposed to survive when you can't strafe effectively? Scouts will have a similar problem.
It sounds like it'll only slow you down as long as you are being hit with bullets, but it's like they're removing the one way close range classes can take down a heavy.
Asiina on
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited August 2008
I don't mind knockback.
But if a spy can shank me after I've run out of range of the heavy because of this weapon I think thats it for me.
They were doing so well.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
This obviously isn't meant to reduce Medic dependency, they're doing that through the sandwich unlock. I'd say this is more a weapon for open areas and support whereas Sasha is better for tight spaces and ambushing. It'll be useful in places where the Heavy can't get close enough to do any real damage.
P.S. Has anybody pointed out the background of the picture? That's gotta be their new map setting.
It depends how it works. I don't know whether we're talking extensive knockback, or people moving slower for X seconds after being hit by a round. Not that I have much trouble killing scouts as a heavy anyway...
True, but usually you can get a kill fairly regularly on a surprised heavy. It's also going to be suck when you get hit by random stray bullets from across the map. I love the scout, being slowed is going to drive me nuts.
Do we have any idea how much of a slow-down effect this is? It kind of says that it lasts a very very short period of time, so I'm assuming you'd have to keep hitting the guy to keep him slowed.
I still want to throw the phrase "slowed for an instant" out there. As Asiina said, it's probably only going to matter as long as you're getting hit. Or, in other words, after you're out of range of getting hit, I'd be VERY surprised if there's any lasting effect to the player. Which sort of goes against the idea that Valve is going back on their word because it comes off more of a knockback like effect than a lasting hindrance.
Then again, I'm sure when this comes out on Tuesday, there will be something obnoxiously broken about this.
EDIT: To clarify again, if they hold to their "for an instant" wording, this shouldn't be too bad to go against. If it's anything lasting...boo-urns.
TwistedFate on
thIs fOrUm dEsErvEs A bEttEr clAss Of OttEr, And I'm gOnnA gIvE It tO 'Em. yOU'll sEE, I'll shOw yA
Man so now pyros will never, ever be able to win against a heavy. Ever.
When the health buff hit we were finally pulling even and could survive more often than not.
When they took it away we can only sometimes kill a heavy if he's not paying attention and we can strafe faster than he can turn. If you slow us down then 25% decrease in damage or not, how the hell are you supposed to survive when you can't strafe effectively? Scouts will have a similar problem.
It sounds like it'll only slow you down as long as you are being hit with bullets, but it's like they're removing the one way close range classes can take down a heavy.
Uh, 25% is a lot of damage. Tracking a Pyro with the minigun at point blank isn't that hard either way, once you lock onto him it's pretty much a DPS contest and with Natascha Pyros are more likely to win.
Honestly, I'd expect a nerf to Natascha later on. Probably isn't going to be -50% movement speed (Because, really, that math doesn't even add up: -50% speed would double the time under fire, but the damage is only -25%.)
Man so now pyros will never, ever be able to win against a heavy. Ever.
When the health buff hit we were finally pulling even and could survive more often than not.
When they took it away we can only sometimes kill a heavy if he's not paying attention and we can strafe faster than he can turn. If you slow us down then 25% decrease in damage or not, how the hell are you supposed to survive when you can't strafe effectively? Scouts will have a similar problem.
It sounds like it'll only slow you down as long as you are being hit with bullets, but it's like they're removing the one way close range classes can take down a heavy.
Uh, 25% is a lot of damage. Tracking a Pyro with the minigun at point blank isn't that hard either way, once you lock onto him it's pretty much a DPS contest and with Natascha Pyros are more likely to win.
Unless they pull out their sandwich, in which case you have to do it all over again with greatly increased chance of dying...
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited August 2008
I'm not even sure I care that it is only dependent on when he is hitting me.
I think being slow is just going to drive me up the wall. I love the medics speed and maneouverabilty. All of my fun comes from getting out of the way of people trying to kill me using it.
If I'm forced to slow down because lolol I have wow debuff gun I get no fun and therefore no more game.
I really hope it's not a fucking debuff and a knockback, I don't know I think I could handle that. Still piss me off.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Honestly, I'd expect a nerf to Natascha later on. Probably isn't going to be -50% movement speed (Because, really, that math doesn't even add up: -50% speed would double the time under fire, but the damage is only -25%.)
That's how it should be, considering that you're doing considerably less damage and thus you and your team are more vulnerable to return fire. There's no point if it doesn't make you more likely to kill them before they escape.
Man so now pyros will never, ever be able to win against a heavy. Ever.
When the health buff hit we were finally pulling even and could survive more often than not.
When they took it away we can only sometimes kill a heavy if he's not paying attention and we can strafe faster than he can turn. If you slow us down then 25% decrease in damage or not, how the hell are you supposed to survive when you can't strafe effectively? Scouts will have a similar problem.
It sounds like it'll only slow you down as long as you are being hit with bullets, but it's like they're removing the one way close range classes can take down a heavy.
Uh, 25% is a lot of damage. Tracking a Pyro with the minigun at point blank isn't that hard either way, once you lock onto him it's pretty much a DPS contest and with Natascha Pyros are more likely to win.
Unless they pull out their sandwich, in which case you have to do it all over again with greatly increased chance of dying...
The sandwich won't be a quick animation, I'm sure. Probably fairly slow with some recoil time.
Man so now pyros will never, ever be able to win against a heavy. Ever.
When the health buff hit we were finally pulling even and could survive more often than not.
When they took it away we can only sometimes kill a heavy if he's not paying attention and we can strafe faster than he can turn. If you slow us down then 25% decrease in damage or not, how the hell are you supposed to survive when you can't strafe effectively? Scouts will have a similar problem.
It sounds like it'll only slow you down as long as you are being hit with bullets, but it's like they're removing the one way close range classes can take down a heavy.
Uh, 25% is a lot of damage. Tracking a Pyro with the minigun at point blank isn't that hard either way, once you lock onto him it's pretty much a DPS contest and with Natascha Pyros are more likely to win.
25% isn't that much of a hit when the guy you're hitting has 175 health. Plus the only way you'd kill heavies point blank is if they did suck and couldn't track you, otherwise you'd die. With this you're slowed down, much easier to track, and then you-a gonna die.
You jump into a group and great the ones you hit can't get away (one's behind you and to the sides are perfectly fine), but you're doing vastly less damage than normal, so you're going to get beat. There's no upside to it.
So don't jump into a group. Hang back and slow down the other team so the rest of your team can have a field day.
As I said, we haven't the foggiest idea how it'll actually work in practise, but I can imagine Natascha being a nasty, nasty weapon when combined with an uber.
"Run from the heavy, he's ubered- wait why the hell am I moving so sl GOD DAMN IT I DIED."
Edcrab on
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited August 2008
Yeah well I understand why people hate these updates so much now because I can't be all mr rationality about this this is my FUN TIMES potentially going bye bye you get it.
Basically I'm scared, someone hold me.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Man, this update just seems really meh the more is released about it.
More payload,
Boxing gloves that wil only be good for maybe 1 second of crits with a minigun after weapon switch and spinup,
and now a debuff gun? even though the bofors (XD) was pretty much a joke, it seemed to fit the heavy so well and give him a new angle of play, not just more bullets...
The sandwich will prolly be kinda cool, but deathmatch...ugh!!!
Guess I'll just have to hold final judgment til it's released though and see how everything plays out
(Is not optimistic)
Avynte on
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited August 2008
I'm going to get some sleep now. I'm going to have to mutter "only an instant maybe not a debuff" to myself to do so.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
If a pyro and a heavy are shooting each other, point blank, face to face, the pyro will die in an instant. Heavy bullets hurt so much close up. A 25% dropoff isn't going to make a difference. According to TF2 wiki pyro does 200 damage per second and heavy 500 damage per second. Even at 75% that's 375 per second. Also Heavies have almost twice as much HP.
The only way pyros can take down a heavy is by circle strafing them and they're taking that away, since if you get hit by even a few bullets you're going to slow down and die.
Man so now pyros will never, ever be able to win against a heavy. Ever.
When the health buff hit we were finally pulling even and could survive more often than not.
When they took it away we can only sometimes kill a heavy if he's not paying attention and we can strafe faster than he can turn. If you slow us down then 25% decrease in damage or not, how the hell are you supposed to survive when you can't strafe effectively? Scouts will have a similar problem.
It sounds like it'll only slow you down as long as you are being hit with bullets, but it's like they're removing the one way close range classes can take down a heavy.
Uh, 25% is a lot of damage. Tracking a Pyro with the minigun at point blank isn't that hard either way, once you lock onto him it's pretty much a DPS contest and with Natascha Pyros are more likely to win.
25% isn't that much of a hit when the guy you're hitting has 175 health. Plus the only way you'd kill heavies point blank is if they did suck and couldn't track you, otherwise you'd die. With this you're slowed down, much easier to track, and then you-a gonna die.
Well, most competent Heavies have no real problem tracking a Pyro. What determines the fight is how long it takes you to turn around and shoot him, i.e. whether or not you still have enough HP to outlast him. If you hit every bullet with Natascha, you'll do as much DPS as if you only hit 75% of the time with Sasha. Any Heavy that could hit more often than that will only be weaker.
Alright so the people already bitching about the gun are being a little hysterical. First off from what it sounds like you'll only be moving slower if you are actively getting hit. Second, they have not specified how much you'll get slowed. One early leak said 50% but it could be tweaked to anything. I can see very definite advantages and disadvantages in this weapon concept: you can prevent lighter classes from escaping as easily and work with your team to make your target easier to hit. Disadvantages being you're worse against Sasha-wielding heavies and you're more likely to lose a straight-up duel against soldiers or demos. And taking longer to kill an enemy means more time spent vulnerable to spies. If they get the slowing amount right, this could be a very solid and balanced addition.
RandomEngy on
Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
That's pretty much all I can add to this really, there was a tonne of whine before and after the pyro update. I'm sure there will be the same amount with every update but it's only with this one do I have the opportunity to quote the class and have it be relevant!
Actually, I don't. I've just started playing again. How well did it work out?
The only reason I used that example without ever having experienced it is that I've seen how the blast works = it's not exactly a shield, it just reflects stuff in front of you. A rocket in the back is still going to smack you.
One thing to keep in mind about demo and soldiers: If you find yourself 1 on 1 as a heavy against these classes without a medic in a situation where they're not right on you (because they'd be pretty stupid to do so....assaulting a heavy head on and close range just isn't smart and it isn't designed to bode well for the attack) with either Sasha or Natascha is more than likely going to equal a big, dead heavy.
TwistedFate on
thIs fOrUm dEsErvEs A bEttEr clAss Of OttEr, And I'm gOnnA gIvE It tO 'Em. yOU'll sEE, I'll shOw yA
Actually, I don't. I've just started playing again. How well did it work out?
The only reason I used that example without ever having experienced it is that I've seen how the blast works = it's not exactly a shield, it just reflects stuff in front of you. A rocket in the back is still going to smack you.
Well the air blast is alright against soldiers but it by no means guarantees a win against them. It takes a good amount of skill and on occasion some luck to accurately reflect a rocket back at a soldier.
Well the air blast is alright against soldiers but it by no means guarantees a win against them. It takes a good amount of skill and on occasion some luck to accurately reflect a rocket back at a soldier.
Yeah, that's kind of what I figured.
I like the new updates. They are expanding the range of each class without turning each one into a "do-anything" or stepping too far into the bounds of another class. Now you can live in a little more of a support role as a heavy. Like playing as the fat guy but not leading the charge? Now you can specialize. It should lead to some interesting team dynamics as more updates are released.
It's not like he can eat sandwiches while shooting bullets in 100 directions at once and lighting people on fire. Like artoo said, I trust Valve with this stuff - it's not like they shovel this stuff out the door without playtesting it at all to see if it works. They're keeping the game fresh for free.
You know, thinking about it, it seems like every update is designed to make ubers more and more useless.
Kritzkrieg gave an alternative so that there are less ubers going around and the leafblower can most definitely stop an uber in its tracks.
With this I can see, especially when trying to break through a strong defense with an uber, heavies slowing people down as they try to push through the knockback to get to a sentry or two. I'd actually like to see how this affects movement while fighting sentries and ubered. Are you just going to be stuck in one place if you have both firing at the same time?
Anyway, it definitely seems like they're trying to phase out ubers.
You know, thinking about it, it seems like every update is designed to make ubers more and more useless.
Kritzkrieg gave an alternative so that there are less ubers going around and the leafblower can most definitely stop an uber in its tracks.
With this I can see, especially when trying to break through a strong defense with an uber, heavies slowing people down as they try to push through the knockback to get to a sentry or two. I'd actually like to see how this affects movement while fighting sentries and ubered. Are you just going to be stuck in one place if you have both firing at the same time?
Anyway, it definitely seems like they're trying to phase out ubers.
I just don't think that's true. Ubers are a key part of the balance of the game - they're basically the only way to break a multisentry hard lock.
(Right? I hadn't played since before the first unlock)
You know, thinking about it, it seems like every update is designed to make ubers more and more useless.
Kritzkrieg gave an alternative so that there are less ubers going around and the leafblower can most definitely stop an uber in its tracks.
With this I can see, especially when trying to break through a strong defense with an uber, heavies slowing people down as they try to push through the knockback to get to a sentry or two. I'd actually like to see how this affects movement while fighting sentries and ubered. Are you just going to be stuck in one place if you have both firing at the same time?
Anyway, it definitely seems like they're trying to phase out ubers.
I just don't think that's true. Ubers are a key part of the balance of the game - they're basically the only way to break a multisentry hard lock.
(Right? I hadn't played since before the first unlock)
You're right, there are certain control points that would be impossible without an uber.
LittleBoots on
Tofu wrote: Here be Littleboots, destroyer of threads and master of drunkposting.
The way I see it, Valve decided people were having too much fun with Team Fortress 2 so now they're devising ingenious ways to undermine it while cackling maniacally in their board room.
I don't think they're phasing them out, they're just giving teams other options. Up until now, the game has been fairly static, and that limits the number of strategies that can be used in tough situations, leaving the uber as the only balls-out choice. The new weapons throw some strategy and some other options into the mix.
Posts
When the health buff hit we were finally pulling even and could survive more often than not.
When they took it away we can only sometimes kill a heavy if he's not paying attention and we can strafe faster than he can turn. If you slow us down then 25% decrease in damage or not, how the hell are you supposed to survive when you can't strafe effectively? Scouts will have a similar problem.
It sounds like it'll only slow you down as long as you are being hit with bullets, but it's like they're removing the one way close range classes can take down a heavy.
But if a spy can shank me after I've run out of range of the heavy because of this weapon I think thats it for me.
They were doing so well.
P.S. Has anybody pointed out the background of the picture? That's gotta be their new map setting.
True, but usually you can get a kill fairly regularly on a surprised heavy. It's also going to be suck when you get hit by random stray bullets from across the map. I love the scout, being slowed is going to drive me nuts.
Do we have any idea how much of a slow-down effect this is? It kind of says that it lasts a very very short period of time, so I'm assuming you'd have to keep hitting the guy to keep him slowed.
Then again, I'm sure when this comes out on Tuesday, there will be something obnoxiously broken about this.
EDIT: To clarify again, if they hold to their "for an instant" wording, this shouldn't be too bad to go against. If it's anything lasting...boo-urns.
Unless they pull out their sandwich, in which case you have to do it all over again with greatly increased chance of dying...
Ka-Chung!
Ka-Chung!
I think being slow is just going to drive me up the wall. I love the medics speed and maneouverabilty. All of my fun comes from getting out of the way of people trying to kill me using it.
If I'm forced to slow down because lolol I have wow debuff gun I get no fun and therefore no more game.
I really hope it's not a fucking debuff and a knockback, I don't know I think I could handle that. Still piss me off.
The sandwich won't be a quick animation, I'm sure. Probably fairly slow with some recoil time.
25% isn't that much of a hit when the guy you're hitting has 175 health. Plus the only way you'd kill heavies point blank is if they did suck and couldn't track you, otherwise you'd die. With this you're slowed down, much easier to track, and then you-a gonna die.
So don't jump into a group. Hang back and slow down the other team so the rest of your team can have a field day.
Well, the new weapon fits him into that position pretty well, for people that want to play that way.
Assuming they all carry Natascha, all the time instead of Sasha, which would limit the effectiveness and flexibility of a team.
So much gloom and doom.
Fuck me I'm gonna play all weekend now, just in case they kill my rush and awesome moments, I want to at least have had a good last crack at it.
"Run from the heavy, he's ubered- wait why the hell am I moving so sl GOD DAMN IT I DIED."
Basically I'm scared, someone hold me.
Secondly, I really think for these unlocks to make the heavy viable alone, there needs to be no spinup/no movement penalty when firing.
More payload,
Boxing gloves that wil only be good for maybe 1 second of crits with a minigun after weapon switch and spinup,
and now a debuff gun? even though the bofors (XD) was pretty much a joke, it seemed to fit the heavy so well and give him a new angle of play, not just more bullets...
The sandwich will prolly be kinda cool, but deathmatch...ugh!!!
Guess I'll just have to hold final judgment til it's released though and see how everything plays out
(Is not optimistic)
The only way pyros can take down a heavy is by circle strafing them and they're taking that away, since if you get hit by even a few bullets you're going to slow down and die.
Backburner=easy win
Normal Flamethrower+Axetinguisher=Easier win.
Backburner+Axetinguisher=Almost Guaranteed win
All of those, of course,are assuming you got the jump on him.
If you didnt, what are you doing fighting a heavy face to face anyways, stupid.
Well, most competent Heavies have no real problem tracking a Pyro. What determines the fight is how long it takes you to turn around and shoot him, i.e. whether or not you still have enough HP to outlast him. If you hit every bullet with Natascha, you'll do as much DPS as if you only hit 75% of the time with Sasha. Any Heavy that could hit more often than that will only be weaker.
Yeah, and know how "well" that's worked out.
I thought we would fighting men!
That's pretty much all I can add to this really, there was a tonne of whine before and after the pyro update. I'm sure there will be the same amount with every update but it's only with this one do I have the opportunity to quote the class and have it be relevant!
The only reason I used that example without ever having experienced it is that I've seen how the blast works = it's not exactly a shield, it just reflects stuff in front of you. A rocket in the back is still going to smack you.
Well the air blast is alright against soldiers but it by no means guarantees a win against them. It takes a good amount of skill and on occasion some luck to accurately reflect a rocket back at a soldier.
I like the new updates. They are expanding the range of each class without turning each one into a "do-anything" or stepping too far into the bounds of another class. Now you can live in a little more of a support role as a heavy. Like playing as the fat guy but not leading the charge? Now you can specialize. It should lead to some interesting team dynamics as more updates are released.
It's not like he can eat sandwiches while shooting bullets in 100 directions at once and lighting people on fire. Like artoo said, I trust Valve with this stuff - it's not like they shovel this stuff out the door without playtesting it at all to see if it works. They're keeping the game fresh for free.
I can't see Valve releasing a deathmatch map. It doesn't seem like something they'd do for TF2.
Kritzkrieg gave an alternative so that there are less ubers going around and the leafblower can most definitely stop an uber in its tracks.
With this I can see, especially when trying to break through a strong defense with an uber, heavies slowing people down as they try to push through the knockback to get to a sentry or two. I'd actually like to see how this affects movement while fighting sentries and ubered. Are you just going to be stuck in one place if you have both firing at the same time?
Anyway, it definitely seems like they're trying to phase out ubers.
I just don't think that's true. Ubers are a key part of the balance of the game - they're basically the only way to break a multisentry hard lock.
(Right? I hadn't played since before the first unlock)
You're right, there are certain control points that would be impossible without an uber.
Tofu wrote: Here be Littleboots, destroyer of threads and master of drunkposting.
How does the blower hold back an uber?