No joke. I read the threads over there, and while I understand coefficients and all that madness, those guys take it to the next level, so much so that I usually start drooling all over myself before clearing page 1 of any given Class Mechanics thread.
"Luckily, Kalgan has posted that the training dummies will be getting an upgrade in the next patch. The level 1 dummies will be replaced by level 80 dummies with typical level 80 stats, as well as 'boss level' dummies with boss stats."
Because if it's that easy, why have Weapon Skill at all? Unless, for some reason, they can't remove it due to it having some sort of significant effect on other aspects of the game. Which is entirely possible, and not unreasonable. I don't know much about programming.
Elemental shaman: One highly preferred. Basicly, 3 mages+shadowpriest+ele shaman is a pretty good dps combo. (Sunwell level). If you don't do that, it becomes hard to justify bringing mages dps wise, but mages have some good utility in sunwell, on every fight i've done. The ele itself suffers badly without an spriest though.
(Kalecgos = dispellers, Brutallus = iceblock out of burn, Felmyst = AoE / Iceblock out of Encap / Blink for beam dodging / fast movement, Twins = iceblock out unfortunate debuff stacks / near death situations, M'uru AoE / poly on adds / spellsteal for lawldps)
Because they want you to level up weapon skill in actual combat, not start-autoattack-and-AFK. Hence the reason other unkillable mobs are having that aspect removed.
Because if it's that easy, why have Weapon Skill at all? Unless, for some reason, they can't remove it due to it having some sort of significant effect on other aspects of the game. Which is entirely possible, and not unreasonable. I don't know much about programming.
You can't get skill ups in pvp, so I can't see why they can't apply it elsewhere.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
Also, if you read the thread that is referenced in the wowinsider article, this same question is asked and players are reporting that they are not getting skillups.
I do have to admit, the whole system is vaguely ridiculous. All it really does is gimp you for a while if you want to use a weapon you haven't leveled with.
No joke. I read the threads over there, and while I understand coefficients and all that madness, those guys take it to the next level, so much so that I usually start drooling all over myself before clearing page 1 of any given Class Mechanics thread.
It all goes over my head, but that math behind it isn't actually that complex, even with the fancy symbols. The amount time they put into testing in game and creating spreadsheets is what's really helpful.
Elemental shaman: One highly preferred. Basicly, 3 mages+shadowpriest+ele shaman is a pretty good dps combo. (Sunwell level). If you don't do that, it becomes hard to justify bringing mages dps wise, but mages have some good utility in sunwell, on every fight i've done. The ele itself suffers badly without an spriest though.
(Kalecgos = dispellers, Brutallus = iceblock out of burn, Felmyst = AoE / Iceblock out of Encap / Blink for beam dodging / fast movement, Twins = iceblock out unfortunate debuff stacks / near death situations, M'uru AoE / poly on adds / spellsteal for lawldps)
Eh, twins and KJ suck for mages. The rest of the fights are pretty damn nice for us.
There are a few things people miss when looking at wws parses for mages:
1. We can stack trinkets and Icy Veins to put out ridiculous temporary damage. This allows us to rock the shit out of Felmyst. More often than not, I have the highest dragon damage for our group on that fight.
2. Arcane/Frost for M'uru. You can sustain 1900-2000 dps P1 while ending with full mana and pot cooldowns up for P2. P2, you hit arcane blast until you run out of mana. The arcane threat mitigation combined with the short window to kill Entropius makes taking an arcane/frost mage overly viable for that fight.
No joke. I read the threads over there, and while I understand coefficients and all that madness, those guys take it to the next level, so much so that I usually start drooling all over myself before clearing page 1 of any given Class Mechanics thread.
It all goes over my head, but that math behind it isn't actually that complex, even with the fancy symbols. The amount time they put into testing in game and creating spreadsheets is what's really helpful.
Maybe not to you, smarty pants. When people start talking about cosines and other nonsense, I go cross-eyed. I am not a fan of math.
No joke. I read the threads over there, and while I understand coefficients and all that madness, those guys take it to the next level, so much so that I usually start drooling all over myself before clearing page 1 of any given Class Mechanics thread.
It all goes over my head, but that math behind it isn't actually that complex, even with the fancy symbols. The amount time they put into testing in game and creating spreadsheets is what's really helpful.
Maybe not to you, smarty pants. When people start talking about cosines and other nonsense, I go cross-eyed. I am not a fan of math.
I'm right there with you. When I used to look over the math the EJ hunter thread used to talk about haste, I couldn't tell if it was an equation for a better shot rotation or opening a Stargate. It's all gibberish to me.
Because they want you to level up weapon skill in actual combat, not start-autoattack-and-AFK. Hence the reason other unkillable mobs are having that aspect removed.
Which I'm fine with.
Not so fine is taking 1-2+ hours to get the last few points of a skill, and how astoundingly boring it is to start fresh on a weapon if you didn't happen to put the time and effort into keeping them all up at your level, which I imagine has probably become particularly common with the increased levelling speed. Hell, with the triple exp package going, I wouldn't be surprised if some people ended up falling far behind just through regular gameplay with the weapons they actually use!
*edit because I am, in fact, apparently retarded. Hopefully it's only a temporary condition*
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Hah, you sound like me when I raided on my hunter.
To be fair, I used to hold my own pretty well; save blade flurry for the skeletons and unload when the paladin has a lock on them.
Nowadays, I instead hold onto 5 combo points for Felmyst herself as she takes off, and either auto-attack some skeletons (rare) or just watch her like a hawk so I can learn/help with call outs if needed. Apply 5 combo point Expose Armor as she lands, get SnD running again and away we go.
It's not glorious fap worthy personal damage, but since the skeletons are easily taken care of by the mages and warlocks, I figure it's probably a better use of my limited access to said dragon.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
1. We can stack trinkets and Icy Veins to put out ridiculous temporary damage. This allows us to rock the shit out of Felmyst. More often than not, I have the highest dragon damage for our group on that fight.
1. We can stack trinkets and Icy Veins to put out ridiculous temporary damage. This allows us to rock the shit out of Felmyst. More often than not, I have the highest dragon damage for our group on that fight.
Damage against the dragon, or damage in general.
Reading what he said, or just not?
Apparently not.
/afk need coffee
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Hah, you sound like me when I raided on my hunter.
To be fair, I used to hold my own pretty well; save blade flurry for the skeletons and unload when the paladin has a lock on them.
Nowadays, I instead hold onto 5 combo points for Felmyst herself as she takes off, and either auto-attack some skeletons (rare) or just watch her like a hawk so I can learn/help with call outs if needed. Apply 5 combo point Expose Armor as she lands, get SnD running again and away we go.
It's not glorious fap worthy personal damage, but since the skeletons are easily taken care of by the mages and warlocks, I figure it's probably a better use of my limited access to said dragon.
The only damage I look at on that fight is single target damage to Felmyst. The rest of it is just static for meter padding whores. Rogues are just screwed because that single target flies up into the air and gives the ranged another 30 seconds or so of casting every rotation.
Because they want you to level up weapon skill in actual combat, not start-autoattack-and-AFK. Hence the reason other unkillable mobs are having that aspect removed.
Which I'm fine with.
Not so fine is taking 1-2+ hours to get the last few points of a skill, and how astoundingly boring it is to start fresh on a weapon if you didn't happen to put the time and effort into keeping them all up at your level, which I imagine has probably become particularly common with the increased levelling speed. Hell, with the triple exp package going, I wouldn't be surprised if some people ended up falling far behind just through regular gameplay with the weapons they actually use!
Bolding mine. It's odd, actually. My shaman had a *lot* of trouble keeping more than one weapon skill caught up (even if you consider max-1 "caught up"). My rogue on the other hand has had no trouble keeping both swords & daggers at the max-1 "caught up" point. In fact, she generally had swords & daggers at max-1 and unarmed at max-3 or so every level since I started leveling her again.
Now I don't have the math to back this, but it seems to me that whatever formula they're using must have a "Zeno's Paradox" flaw in it. When my rogue hit 49, I decided to hold of leveling daggers and see how long getting those 6 skillups would take (so I tried getting max instead of max-1). So I used swords and swords alone, in both hands, the whole time I leveled through 49 to 50. I hit 50 before I got that last skillup.
The obvious answer would be weapon speed... except that for most of the 50's my shaman used the Flurry Axe he got as a random drop, a very fast axe, with another axe (2.5 speed if I remember) in his main. And the rogue uses moderate 2.5 speed swords.
The secret to shaman weapon skill levelling, at high levels, and with blasted land servants, is going resto for nature's guardian, so that you become unkillable to the servant. Being able to go afk made weapon skill levelling on my shaman so much better.
I'd love to see what the actual formulas are. I recently maxed out all my weapon skills on my Priest. (Yes I'm crazy) I *thought* there was a pattern, but now I'm not sure....
Those were approximate, I just took time in minutes (tracked by Buff countdowns) and divided by weapon speed. (3.8 for my staff)
I didn't keep track of daggers because I figured it was the same, right? It took over 1000 hits to get the last point in daggers. Unarmed was around 800. (Maces were maxed forever ago) So... I have no idea. I definitely does seem to be different by weapon type.
Speaking annecdotally as someone who has levelled a LOT of characters to 70, I found that even with the old school levelling rate, getting your 5 points during the level was rarer than getting the 5th point early in the next level.
Like at level 10 you have a cap of 50, but I'd often start at 44 (one below the old cap of 45). I'd often get to 50 early into level 11 (where the cap is now 55). With decreased Exp required per level, and increased exp earned through quests (both combining to decrease the amount of actual combat required per level), I shudder to think of the people with absolutely horrid weapons skills in most of their weapons must feel when they get an 'upgrade' outside their usual gearset.
"Hooray... now time to go spend a couple of days trying to get this shit caught up."
Which will, of course, only get worse as the levels go up.
It's bad now, it sucked pre-TBC, now imagine trying to go from 1 to 450 weapon skill. Sure, those first few hundred points just fly by, but then they slow down, and instead of practically 1 per swing, your lucky to get 1 per mob. And then one per hour. And then your sucking cocks behind an olive gar... wait, wrong euphamism.... never mind.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I'd love to see what the actual formulas are. I recently maxed out all my weapon skills on my Priest. (Yes I'm crazy) I *thought* there was a pattern, but now I'm not sure....
Those were approximate, I just took time in minutes (tracked by Buff countdowns) and divided by weapon speed. (3.8 for my staff)
I didn't keep track of daggers because I figured it was the same, right? It took over 1000 hits to get the last point in daggers. Unarmed was around 800. (Maces were maxed forever ago) So... I have no idea. I definitely does seem to be different by weapon type.
If it is hits, you're better off using a fast weapon.
If I had to guess, it's based around average hits/sec. If we checked the average attack speed of each weapon type, we'd probably see a correlation there...staves tend to be really slow, daggers fast, etc.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
Speaking annecdotally as someone who has levelled a LOT of characters to 70, I found that even with the old school levelling rate, getting your 5 points during the level was rarer than getting the 5th point early in the next level.
Like at level 10 you have a cap of 50, but I'd often start at 44 (one below the old cap of 45). I'd often get to 50 early into level 11 (where the cap is now 55). With decreased Exp required per level, and increased exp earned through quests (both combining to decrease the amount of actual combat required per level), I shudder to think of the people with absolutely horrid weapons skills in most of their weapons must feel when they get an 'upgrade' outside their usual gearset.
"Hooray... now time to go spend a couple of days trying to get this shit caught up."
Which will, of course, only get worse as the levels go up.
It's bad now, it sucked pre-TBC, now imagine trying to go from 1 to 450 weapon skill. Sure, those first few hundred points just fly by, but then they slow down, and instead of practically 1 per swing, your lucky to get 1 per mob. And then one per hour. And then your sucking cocks behind an olive gar... wait, wrong euphamism.... never mind.
It probably could have gone faster, I didn't even think about it. Eh, I was overhauling our website at the time which took longer than the weapon skill up in the end.
If we're talking about ways to fix weapon skill leveling, how about one of the first things we do is get that shit off the INT stat? Ya know, since those classes who are primarily meleeing tend to not stack much INT at all in the first place?
The Wolfman on
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
I'm pretty sure that int doesn't speed up weapon skill any more.
EDIT: I did some searching to check - It seems that Int affecting weapon skill was removed from the Int tooltip as of 2.0. Whether or not it actually still affects it is unconfirmed.
I'd probably be happier if they brought that back, sure it's totally stupid but I could grab some greens off the AH and speed the tiresome bullshit up.
Posts
http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/09/03/training-dummies-updated-in-the-wrath-beta/
No joke. I read the threads over there, and while I understand coefficients and all that madness, those guys take it to the next level, so much so that I usually start drooling all over myself before clearing page 1 of any given Class Mechanics thread.
Indeed
Note: Filefront Streaming Video Link
This is important -
"Luckily, Kalgan has posted that the training dummies will be getting an upgrade in the next patch. The level 1 dummies will be replaced by level 80 dummies with typical level 80 stats, as well as 'boss level' dummies with boss stats."
Those (probably) won't grant skill ups though.
Fantastic for testing out gear/spec though.
Why not?
Because if it's that easy, why have Weapon Skill at all? Unless, for some reason, they can't remove it due to it having some sort of significant effect on other aspects of the game. Which is entirely possible, and not unreasonable. I don't know much about programming.
(Kalecgos = dispellers, Brutallus = iceblock out of burn, Felmyst = AoE / Iceblock out of Encap / Blink for beam dodging / fast movement, Twins = iceblock out unfortunate debuff stacks / near death situations, M'uru AoE / poly on adds / spellsteal for lawldps)
You can't get skill ups in pvp, so I can't see why they can't apply it elsewhere.
I do have to admit, the whole system is vaguely ridiculous. All it really does is gimp you for a while if you want to use a weapon you haven't leveled with.
It all goes over my head, but that math behind it isn't actually that complex, even with the fancy symbols. The amount time they put into testing in game and creating spreadsheets is what's really helpful.
Eh, twins and KJ suck for mages. The rest of the fights are pretty damn nice for us.
There are a few things people miss when looking at wws parses for mages:
1. We can stack trinkets and Icy Veins to put out ridiculous temporary damage. This allows us to rock the shit out of Felmyst. More often than not, I have the highest dragon damage for our group on that fight.
2. Arcane/Frost for M'uru. You can sustain 1900-2000 dps P1 while ending with full mana and pot cooldowns up for P2. P2, you hit arcane blast until you run out of mana. The arcane threat mitigation combined with the short window to kill Entropius makes taking an arcane/frost mage overly viable for that fight.
Maybe not to you, smarty pants. When people start talking about cosines and other nonsense, I go cross-eyed. I am not a fan of math.
I'm right there with you. When I used to look over the math the EJ hunter thread used to talk about haste, I couldn't tell if it was an equation for a better shot rotation or opening a Stargate. It's all gibberish to me.
Which I'm fine with.
Not so fine is taking 1-2+ hours to get the last few points of a skill, and how astoundingly boring it is to start fresh on a weapon if you didn't happen to put the time and effort into keeping them all up at your level, which I imagine has probably become particularly common with the increased levelling speed. Hell, with the triple exp package going, I wouldn't be surprised if some people ended up falling far behind just through regular gameplay with the weapons they actually use!
*edit because I am, in fact, apparently retarded. Hopefully it's only a temporary condition*
Hah, you sound like me when I raided on my hunter.
To be fair, I used to hold my own pretty well; save blade flurry for the skeletons and unload when the paladin has a lock on them.
Nowadays, I instead hold onto 5 combo points for Felmyst herself as she takes off, and either auto-attack some skeletons (rare) or just watch her like a hawk so I can learn/help with call outs if needed. Apply 5 combo point Expose Armor as she lands, get SnD running again and away we go.
It's not glorious fap worthy personal damage, but since the skeletons are easily taken care of by the mages and warlocks, I figure it's probably a better use of my limited access to said dragon.
Reading what he said, or just not?
Apparently not.
/afk need coffee
A wonderfully, delicious crutch!
The only damage I look at on that fight is single target damage to Felmyst. The rest of it is just static for meter padding whores. Rogues are just screwed because that single target flies up into the air and gives the ranged another 30 seconds or so of casting every rotation.
That said, cloaking out of encapsulate just feels so good.
Bolding mine. It's odd, actually. My shaman had a *lot* of trouble keeping more than one weapon skill caught up (even if you consider max-1 "caught up"). My rogue on the other hand has had no trouble keeping both swords & daggers at the max-1 "caught up" point. In fact, she generally had swords & daggers at max-1 and unarmed at max-3 or so every level since I started leveling her again.
Now I don't have the math to back this, but it seems to me that whatever formula they're using must have a "Zeno's Paradox" flaw in it. When my rogue hit 49, I decided to hold of leveling daggers and see how long getting those 6 skillups would take (so I tried getting max instead of max-1). So I used swords and swords alone, in both hands, the whole time I leveled through 49 to 50. I hit 50 before I got that last skillup.
The obvious answer would be weapon speed... except that for most of the 50's my shaman used the Flurry Axe he got as a random drop, a very fast axe, with another axe (2.5 speed if I remember) in his main. And the rogue uses moderate 2.5 speed swords.
For staff skill:
100 hits - 348
200 hits - 349
600 hits - 350
Those were approximate, I just took time in minutes (tracked by Buff countdowns) and divided by weapon speed. (3.8 for my staff)
I didn't keep track of daggers because I figured it was the same, right? It took over 1000 hits to get the last point in daggers. Unarmed was around 800. (Maces were maxed forever ago) So... I have no idea. I definitely does seem to be different by weapon type.
Like at level 10 you have a cap of 50, but I'd often start at 44 (one below the old cap of 45). I'd often get to 50 early into level 11 (where the cap is now 55). With decreased Exp required per level, and increased exp earned through quests (both combining to decrease the amount of actual combat required per level), I shudder to think of the people with absolutely horrid weapons skills in most of their weapons must feel when they get an 'upgrade' outside their usual gearset.
"Hooray... now time to go spend a couple of days trying to get this shit caught up."
Which will, of course, only get worse as the levels go up.
It's bad now, it sucked pre-TBC, now imagine trying to go from 1 to 450 weapon skill. Sure, those first few hundred points just fly by, but then they slow down, and instead of practically 1 per swing, your lucky to get 1 per mob. And then one per hour. And then your sucking cocks behind an olive gar... wait, wrong euphamism.... never mind.
If it is hits, you're better off using a fast weapon.
If I had to guess, it's based around average hits/sec. If we checked the average attack speed of each weapon type, we'd probably see a correlation there...staves tend to be really slow, daggers fast, etc.
It's only going to be 400, isn't it?
Yes, 80 * 5 = 400
Shit, yeah, I'm thinking of Professions.
God damnit, coffee, you have failed me!
Now that I look at it, your staff is really bad for leveling weapon skill. >_>
You can get closer to 3.0 or even lower.
Also, why the hell is wowhead down for maintenance.:(
If it's a problem, I will gladly take it off your hands.
If we're talking about ways to fix weapon skill leveling, how about one of the first things we do is get that shit off the INT stat? Ya know, since those classes who are primarily meleeing tend to not stack much INT at all in the first place?
EDIT: I did some searching to check - It seems that Int affecting weapon skill was removed from the Int tooltip as of 2.0. Whether or not it actually still affects it is unconfirmed.